BONUS | Joey Sherrard on Books and Preaching

A short bonus episode where CPT fellow Joey Sherrard shares discusses St. Augustine's important book, On Christian Teaching.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And we actually, as as as luck would have it, still have Joey on the call. No idea how this happened. But we're moving into this new rhythm that we're we're hoping to have going forward where we keep our guests on for a bonus segment, little bonus mini episode to talk about a book that's been influential in their lives, influential in their ministry, and perhaps particularly with reference to preaching. So Joey, what do you have for us? Book book recommendation that you want to want to share with us in the audience for a few minutes.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah. Well, to perhaps no one's surprise, I would like to recommend a book by Augustine. Uh it is called Many Things. Uh, it has been called On Christian Doctrine. Uh it has been recently published as Teaching Christianity. I think it has other names. But this is Augustine's manual for preachers. It is, it is maybe the first preaching manual ever published, or whatever it would have been called in the history of the church. Uh, and it's four little books that give guidance on how to read the scriptures and and how to preach.

Joel Lawrence 1:34

So talk to us a bit about maybe a couple of the themes of of uh I've always called it on Christian teaching. So we can just get all the different all the different possible names for it in here. But what are there a couple themes particular that you would highlight? Um and then and then tell us a little bit about how it's impacted you particularly as you think about what preaching is and how you go about the task of preaching.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, so the there are four books in uh teaching Christianity that made made up of it. The the center of the book is really about how to interpret scripture. Uh, but the first and the fourth book are what I have found particularly helpful. And those would be the couple themes that I think would be helpful for people to hear. The first is asking like, what is the hermeneutical end of all of our work of pastoring and teaching? And Augustine, I think, really helpfully simplifies what is a pretty complex question in a way that does is not reducing it, but I think is capturing it. He says, All of scripture and all of our work of ministry should work to the love of God and the love of neighbor. And he presents a pretty sophisticated way of how we think about those things, kind of untroubling a lot of the ways that we might think about that. So, for example, sometimes we sometimes we can feel like those things are competitive. Like I could either love God or I could love my neighbor. And he really, I think, shows how they're not competitive. I think he shows uh in ways that uh are really helpful, like how it is that we can love God by loving our our neighbors. Um so it's a really it's a really remarkable description of that. Um it all sort of happens within the background of this idea of like pilgrimage that we we kind of we use the goods of this world, you know, as a way of getting to what it is that we want to enjoy, which is God Himself. Um and then the the last section of the book is really about like how to how to preach and how to deliver a sermon. And he's borrowing there from Cicero in his own time, but he prevents a presents a pretty basic, but I found really helpful framework that anytime we're saying anything in preaching, it should we should aim either to teach or to delight our congregation or to sway them uh as well, which I think is a pretty helpful typology. Like sometimes I think sometimes we can think as pastors, okay, I taught it.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

Yes, informed.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah. But he's I mean, he he says no, like so they need to understand it, and then they need to see it's beautiful, yeah. Um, and then they sometimes, sometimes that's enough, but then sometimes they need to hear a a kind of argument that will move them out of like whatever form of life that they are currently in into this true and beautiful way of life.

Joel Lawrence 4:52

Yeah. Yeah, just real quick to say, I uh this it's interesting you said those those two things. The I I'm teaching a a doctoral seminar with our friends over at Emmaus Seminary in Cleveland, and I had my students read on Christian teaching for that seminar. It had probably been for me 15 years since I read it. Yeah. It's really good. But but the two things that that kind of struck them was one, this kinds of means and ends of hermeneutics that we can get caught in the means, and then it becomes very mechanical. And it and when we take hermeneutics out of the ends of loving God and loving neighbors, something drastically different happens to our hermeneutics. And yeah, and then the second thing was this kind of idea of preaching toward the beauty of God that that that is to move hearts in particular direct. And content's a critical part of that, and information's a critical part of that. But if you've not gotten to the the beauty that moves hearts, affecting part of the person, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yeah, and I think there's there's a tendency, and it's it's so funny hearing you kind of talk through this, like all these like little faint echoes of when I would have read this in grad school 10 years ago or or more. I do remember the kind of persuading taxonomy versus teaching, all these sorts of things. And I think there can be a tendency for us to think preaching is primarily about one or the other or the other.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

And we can major on, well, we're looking to give people hope, or we want them to delight in God. And it's like, well, surely you want to do that, but you also like there is a information exchange teaching the doctrines of the faith component to preaching. There's a there's a catechetical element, and it's not just about making people feel warm feelings towards God, although it certainly includes that. And you wouldn't want to have one without the other, right? And then I think the pers the being reminded of the kind of uh rhetorical persuasive element of preaching as well certainly is is part of the catechetical, like it's not just a uh content of the scriptures and a doctrinal statement being communicated. You're all you're often catechizing against something, and that's certainly um the case today as as for Augustine as ever. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Any any any kind of closing thoughts, comments, or follow-up on that, Joey? And then we'll Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

I mean, the only thing I would say is that what I do appreciate, again, Augustine is such a there he has his blind spots because he's human like the rest of us, but he he does have this really wonderful aside in book four where he he he basically says like the the the preacher should be a prayer first, you know, which I think is something we can often overlook. In fact, the more kind of artifice that we have around our kind of work of sermon preparation and our hermeneutics and things like that, it those can seem to make prayer more and more unnecessary to us in our own minds, but not for a guest. I mean, he just he really has a very high sense of the ways that God's you know providential, you know, Holy Spirit-led work kind of interrupts our processes and speaks to congregations in ways that are are more than are more than what you know, the the sum is more than the the uh the different parts. Um and and prayer is is a is is one of the ways that we that we participate in that. So it's a really beautiful, beautiful work.

Joel Lawrence 8:41

Yeah, it's good. Thanks, Joey. Appreciate uh you jumping on with us on uh on this little conversation and our larger conversation. Remind folks if you just stumbled upon this conversation with Joey, we've we've also got uh a larger conversation that we had with him on his new book, The Augustinian Pastor. Would encourage you to listen to that as well. So thanks for being on with us, brother. Yeah, thanks, Joey.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Thank you guys. Appreciate y'all.

Joel Lawrence 9:05

God bless. Take care.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastertheologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Twitter. This show is produced by Seth Korch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Prequor. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.