Finding Faithful Pastors | Rich Kidd

Joel Lawrence sits down with Rich Kidd of Mission Leadership to discuss the changing landscape of pastoral leadership. Drawing from years of experience in executive search and ministry, Kidd reflects on the growing need for shepherds, not just speakers, in ministry today, and the challenges churches face in identifying and supporting healthy leaders. How can churches engage in practices that appropriately vet candidates, build trust with congregations, and prioritize a relational approach to ministry?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

That was one of the things that came out of my research is that 65% of pastors are not making use of any professional resource. And it's counseling, it's anything in that area. Like you gotta find a safe place where you can continue to get healthy, and it's it's a pressure cooker.

Joel Lawrence 0:25

Hi everyone, welcome to the Pastor Theologians podcast. Uh, my name is Joel Lawrence. I serve as the president of the Center for Pastor Theologians. Uh normally I'm here with Zach, but I'm on my own today. Uh, have a uh a special interview to share with you with uh Rich Kidd, who is the managing partner of an organization called Mission Leadership. Um, as you'll hear in the conversation, uh, Mission Leadership uh is a sponsor of the Center for Pastor Theologians. And I'm so grateful for this relationship that we have and uh Rich's heart for pastors, his heart for the church, uh, as he is involved in the work of connecting pastors with churches through recruiting, working with church boards to hire pastors. Um, he's just very encouraging to hear his vision for the church. And one of the things that we want to do through this partnership is is encourage church boards and churches to be more attuned to what a pastor theologian is and how pastor theologians are called to serve the church. And Rich is locked in on that vision and wants to wants to be a part of that. So um it's a great opportunity for you to hear from from Rich, get to know him a little bit, and the work of mission leadership. And um, if you if you are in a position where you're you're a pastor and you're you're maybe looking for a new church or you're someone who's involved in a church and your church is searching, I would encourage you to think about uh reaching out to Rich in Mission Leadership to help you with that process. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Rich, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Glad to be here, Joel. Good. So uh the opportunity we have here today for this conversation is to get to know one of the partners of the Center for Pastor Theologians. Um, so Rich is with Mission Leadership, which is an organization that sponsors our newsletter. And uh so we wanted to take some time to share with you, our listening audience, a little bit about Rich, a little bit about Mission Leadership and our partnership. So uh, Rich, why don't we begin just jumping in by getting to know you a little bit? Uh tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, your family, kind of your trajectory in life, the different things that the Lord has called you to do over the years.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Thanks. Well, I'd be happy to. Uh I grew up in uh the Carolinas, pretty much, uh North and South Carolina. My dad was uh in computers and was sort of in that early phase of getting manufacturers uh computerized. And so we sort of followed the textile industries. If you know anything about the history of North Carolina, that was a big deal until it wasn't. And so we, you know, were in sort of mill towns and that sort of thing. Place called Shelby uh was a spot where I had lots of great memories. Uh but going into high school, we moved to Virginia Beach, Virginia, where my folks uh and I still live.

Joel Lawrence 3:44

But I don't live with my folks, Joel, just so make that very clear.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah, but we did move there going into high school, and uh they went into sort of the ministry world uh and went to work for uh the Christian Broadcasting Network.

Joel Lawrence 3:59

Your your your parents worked for the Christian Broadcasting Network, did you say? Uh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

It's a it's an odd uh fact, but some member of my family worked for a CBN uh property, either Regent, CBM family channel for like 35 years. Wow. Wow, that's a long history. Yeah. It's uh an odd fact, but Dr. Pat Robertson hired me personally to work at Regent. So I have that story as well. That's quite a story. That's quite a story. Yeah, I promise you. But uh yeah, I I thought I was gonna go into law, and the Lord sort of changed my priorities around and called me into the gospel ministry. And so I um became the youth pastor of our church where I was in college and was doing uh you know ministry on the weekends, going to school, then graduated and became their first full-time youth pastor. I was the youth youth guy on Sunday and the janitor on Monday. It was I was living the life.

Joel Lawrence 5:05

That's real ministry. That's all I do.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Pastoral ministry has a lot in common with janitorial services. But uh yeah, that uh so I was in uh professional youth ministry for like eight years. I I went to seminary, was doing youth ministry the whole time, and got out and thought I was gonna grow up and go into adult ministry, but God said had other plans, you know. So was in uh a large church down in Houston doing youth ministry. So uh I I love my time in youth ministry. I've even got one of my former kids who's who became the youngest justice on the Texas Supreme Court.

Joel Lawrence 5:44

Wow, no kidding. That's pretty good going.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

I I of course You do all to you, I assume. Yeah, I take full credit for that.

Joel Lawrence 5:50

But yes, of course. Of course. But where did you go to seminary? I I went to Ted's Trinity Evan.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Ted's I had good old DA Carson for advanced exegesis and Murray Harris for you know uh Greek and Willem von Gemmeren for uh Hebrew. It was it was a glorious time.

Joel Lawrence 6:12

That was quite a lineup back in those days. It was the heyday.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

I even was in a small group Bible study with Wayne Grutum. And he he led this this home group, and I look over, we're studying first Peter, and there's his you know commentary on First Peter, you know, on his coffee table. So it was it was quite quite an exciting time.

Joel Lawrence 6:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So then it w you you went to Ted's and then went to Houston, if I'm if I'm tracking that. So that is correct.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

I graduated uh from seminary, got married, we went down to Houston, we ended up coming back to Virginia Beach where I was a pastor in a large church here. I was actually my parents' pastor, which was really, really fun. Yeah uh couldn't get them saved, but you know um What can you do? You know, what can you do with these old people? But uh yeah, it was it was really, really fun. I planted a church. So I I was uh ordained in the EPC, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, where I still actually hold an ordination. So I I know uh pastoral ministry from from the inside out.

Joel Lawrence 7:15

You do in lots of different facets of it. Yeah, yeah, that's that's great. Which which I I know is serving you well in in what you're doing these days. So tell us a bit about your current role with with mission leadership. Uh tell us a little bit about what mission leadership is and what you guys do, and then and then how you serve that that ministry. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Well, uh, I have a uh business partner, and together we started mission leadership. I've actually been in the executive search business for Christian ministries, uh going on 14 years now. Um but we started this one February 1st, 2020, which was my wife's birthday. And then right after we started, a fantastic time to be launching its 13 ministry in the world.

Joel Lawrence 8:13

Uh I've got you, I've got you beat, Rich. I I don't know if we've if I've told you this story, but my transition from my pastorate to the CPT, the letter to my church that I was leaving went out March 9th of 2020. That was a Monday. And it was that Friday that everything shut down. So my strategic works in the church.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So we we we envision uh mission leadership as a solution that would assist uh Christian organizations. And we're we're sort of niche that way. We we love all nonprofits. We you know, appreciate so many businesses. I've worked in several businesses, but our focus is on Christian ministries, churches, and Christian-owned businesses. And my experience is that these organizations they have an amazing vision. They're usually driven by this mission, but sometimes they just lack uh the leaders to make good on that mission. And so they have exceptional missions, they're missing exceptional leaders. And so that that sort of was my our driving force is to find leaders as exceptional as your mission, is kind of what you know what we tried to do. And if if truth be told, I've also seen from the inside out uh what bad leadership looks like, both in nonprofit leadership and and and in the church. And frankly, I've seen people destroy organizations that I love. And I didn't think that was fair. And I thought if we could uh use a bit more discernment and wisdom in leadership selection, then the organizations that we've worked so hard to grow would be uh a lot healthier. So that's what mission leadership is about.

Joel Lawrence 10:07

So you you mentioned you have a pretty broad portfolio of the kind of organized organizations you you work with. Sure. Um one of which is churches. That's right. Um and that's kind of the the business that that we're in as the CPT. So wanted to talk with you a little bit about your work in in pastoral searches, pastoral recruiting.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 10:29

So some of the conversations that that we've had, you got connected to CPT through Dwight Gibson, who's our our our director of development, and and and I think you were the the conversation was around what kind of pastors are churches looking for? And how can how can CPT, how can mission leadership kind of be together thinking through how to how to uh maybe raise, elevate the profile of pastor theologians as something that the church would look for. So talk to us a little bit about kind of how you, from where you sit, what are you observing about the nature of pastoral leadership today? What do you see as some of the great challenges facing pastors? And then how do you see that playing out in the in the work that you do with churches and with pastors?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, it's it's a great question. Uh I have a friend, David Garretsen, who was a mentor to me. He has been a pastor, he's been a uh three-time college president. Um and he said that the most important challenge in Christian leadership is board leadership. And and that surprised me because I care about pastors, I care about you know, CEOs, I care about these organizations. But the truth is church boards often don't know what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

And so my heart is to come alongside of church boards and help them to clarify expectations. You know, that they'll uh, you know, usually somebody's worried about attendance, usually somebody's worried about uh, you know, uh great preaching, usually somebody's worried about managing the staff or the budget that they have. And so they make lists that that end up sounding what we we joke around is Jesus, Jesus on a unicorn. Like it's so rare that there's no way anybody could do these things. So my desire is to be able to come alongside, and I'm working with a church right now, and I had found their pastor some time ago, and as a result, a church that I don't want to say it was dying, but uh um it it was it was really struggling to thrive, and they've doubled their budget, they've quadrupled their attendance, and now they need a an associate pastor. And so I've been working alongside of that. Um it's a Presbyterian church, so the session, the elders, just to help clarify their expectation. And honestly, this is where I find the Center for Uh Pastor Theologians so crucial is that they're training shepherds, right? And this is the big change that I've seen since the pandemic is that churches are not just looking for a sage on a stage. They're saying things like, we want a holistic leader, we want somebody with emotional intelligence, we want someone we can trust. And that shepherd word, of course, is the Bible word. And you know, that that's still last year. I know that was your I know that was your conference last year.

Joel Lawrence 13:42

But um, we're gonna we're gonna continue on with the theme, even at the end of that was last year's conference. Fair enough. In our mission statement. So we we we've got we're working on that still.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah. I you know, I think that there has long been a suspicion of the Academy in church boards that they they've you know, I was warned when I was going off to cemetery, oh, you know, you're gonna go off to cemetery, right? Yeah, I was like, yeah, uh it's it's not a cemetery. And then and then they would say, well, don't come back with a steeple caught in your throat talking about, you know. And I was like, okay, but there is a certain wisdom there. And I and I find in what you all are doing, especially with the cohorts, that it it is relational, it's practical, and it really is a bridge between the deep theological understandings in the academy and the practical needs in the churches. And let's be honest, those needs are complex. And that's why I love the way you say this complex world. But that's what people are realizing that they need. And I think you're delivering something that's very unique in the marketplace.

Joel Lawrence 14:54

So I I'd be curious, you you said since the pandemic, you're seeing this change. Have you put your finger on like what was it about the pandemic that that did that? Was it was it just kind of the sense that we all felt the world was falling apart and that reordered priorities? I'm I'm just curious what do you think happened through that experience?

SPEAKER_02 15:16

It is that, okay, so we all went home and I had no idea how much I needed to go to church with my dog. You know, it was just great during the pandemic. You could, you know, your dogs went to church, you're all on the couch, you're watching the TV and all that. And and and let's be honest, some some people never came back, right? They just they said, hey, uh church in my boxes. This is great. This is awesome. Um and and and so in a way we all went through that, but what we've seen is that the numbers on trust, right? That they they track uh how people trust certain uh you know uh professions, right? Yeah. And the most trusted are nurses, doctors, teachers, even military officers. Clergy always used to be in that most trusted category. And over the last five years, especially, uh, but uh 10 years, the trending line, we've dropped to mid-tier. We're, as my son would say, we're we're we're mid. We're mid. And we're so mid. And and and and that is troublesome. But the thing that's interesting is that there's a dichotomy between national or or TV preachers and your local preacher, right? So the numbers are very clear that people who go regularly to a church trust their pastor between 80 and 90 percent, whereas on a national level it's much lower, it's like 30 percent. So what I'm saying is that if you're sitting at home watching somebody that you don't know personally because it's just really excellent speaking, yeah, you don't then then you you're you're cynical. I'm Gen X, so I'm sort of like programmed to be cynical about everything. Yeah. But but you don't know them, and then there's a new strategy, there's a new scandal, there's somebody else that's fallen, you know, some new expert on this turns out to be, you know, not so moral. And people are very um skeptical and suspicious about those national preachers, but it's that local guy, that local female pastor that you do trust. And and so I think that's one of the reasons why it's it's it's gone down since the pandemic.

Joel Lawrence 17:41

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. I uh uh it tracks with our what kind of we've seen, our experience. I think it was interesting after the pandemic, um, when we were doing some research for a grant that we were pursuing on preaching, I went and I did some field research and I met with congregations. And it was around preaching and kind of what do they think preaching is and what are they looking for in preaching? And one of the things that really came out, this would have been summer of 22, I was doing this work. Um, one of the things that came out was them saying, look, we when we weren't able to meet together, I could listen to sermons online, and and and that was helpful, but it's different when I'm in the room and I know my pastor, and my pastor knows me, and we make eye contact while he's preaching. Something is happening theologically in that that that you don't get just by listening to some great preacher, which may be excellent to do while you're mowing the lawn. Yeah, but that's different. And they were recognizing that that was different. And I so I do think that that locality and that the the pandemic was in some senses a reset of that and a way to get in touch with something maybe we take an advantage of the the importance of the of the local shepherd who knows my story, I know their story, and the Lord is doing something in the midst of our relationship that can't happen by listening to great preaching online.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Oh, I I totally agree. You know, I I'll I'll personalize it. You know, we go to a church, it's a wonderful church, it's a multi-ethnic church, and uh our local campus pastor was a former student of mine, and I did his wedding, right, uh 16, 17 years ago. And so I have this intensely personal connection with him and with the church. He called my son. He he asked for his number, he he texted him and took my 20-year-old son to lunch and asked about his life and prayed for him and encouraged him, called out his gifts. And I gotta tell you, I, you know, there ain't no YouTube video that is ever gonna do that. I know my son watches videos from other preachers, and that's awesome. But when my pastor became his pastor, dude, that that's the church getting real. And I I was I just, you know, everybody needs help raising their kids. And when you've got somebody who knows you, a shepherd who cares about you, that it makes all the difference.

Joel Lawrence 20:25

That's massive. So one of the things you said is in your your you like to work with boards and kind of help church boards think this through. I I would just be curious, uh, you know, as people might be thinking and and and maybe looking, you know, pastors or lay people who are listening to this, who may be involved in a search process. Tell us a little bit about the the the process that you guys do as mission leadership, just to give us some insight into what it is that that that you would do if someone was working with you.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yeah, it's a great question. So uh we uh of course are trying to make people miserable with a tough choice. We we we go on site with insight, go to church. I want to, if they have two or three different kinds of services, I want to go to all of them. I want to hear, you know, uh what the pastor says. I want to watch what the pastor does in between services. Yeah. You know, what are the expectations of the congregation? We would interview the search committee. We usually try to do that at a you know more relaxed setting, like a dinner or something like that. Uh, and hear from them, you know, what what makes their church so special? What makes it unique? Because look cookie cutter, you know, processes uh are not what anybody's looking for. They want to hear that we understand the uniqueness of your community. And it takes a little work. We have you know, questionnaires we send, we'll go on site, we stay for the weekend, we meet with any direct reports to that uh staff person we're finding. And then we're gonna Work that into what we call an opportunity profile that describes, uh sort of puts a target uh of what we think God might be calling the person. And so then we go out to our network, and our network, you know, we we we do both um, you know, it's an art and a science. We'll put it in a you know, push marketing uh uh effort, we'll put it on, you know, social media, but we're also gonna reach out to friends of ours who are uh networked highly relational pastors and say, hey, here's what we're looking for. This is the kind of person, who does this, what you know, who comes to mind? And you and I have talked about this, and you've sent me people, yeah. And uh, you know, that that's kind of the way it works. Yeah. Um, and so uh then we come back, and then the the first uh sort of big thing to establish, the the first filter, if you will, is preaching. And whether the the person is going to be preaching, you know, uh 40 times a year or even you know, just four, uh what what I've found is preaching is is sort of like cooking. You know, everybody has their taste, and I can't tell them what they like. It's just local, you know, preference. And so I don't try to tell them, you know, what they like. I I hear what they say they want, but then we put actual, you know, it's sort of like the the lady at the mall who comes and gives you the sample, you know, uh, you know, bourbon chicken. Uh no. Uh so that you know, we we we give them a sample, right? We let them let them see, and then they tell us, well, we like this one, we like this one, we don't like this one. Okay, fine. Once that person is past that screening, then we're gonna give them enough information so that they can see if the background is right. Some people really are uh you know focused on education, some are really focused on experience, some you know are looking for a particular part of the country that they would prefer. Uh all those things are important. And so then once we get those uh sort of select groups, then we're gonna do a pretty deep vetting. And it it's tough because you know uh there's been some very serious scandals, you know, in the church, and and insufficient vetting has has let you know the fox into the hen house, so to speak. And so we take that very seriously, and I think that's probably one of our uh core competencies is doing a deep dive, making sure that this person is safe, and then we give them three to five, and then they're gonna um interact with those to decide who they want to bring on site and finally who they wanna who they wanna hire. And we walk with them all through that, um, helping them with the offer and and um uh and all of that. So it it's it's a not a quick process. You know, hiring the firm doesn't make it faster, it makes it better. Right. Uh and a better match and and longevity, you know, is what we're looking for.

Joel Lawrence 25:13

So I'm I'm curious uh on the like as you go through that process, do you do you guys give your opinion about like once they've narrowed it down, do you give your opinion about who they should go with, or do you just kind of leave that up to them? Do you wait for them to ask? How does how does that part of it work? I'm just kind of intrigued on the insider vision.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

So when your wife says that she'd like to go out to eat, do you help her with her opinion? Or do you ask, what is my opinion for this evening?

Joel Lawrence 25:46

Right, right. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Yeah. You know, it's I don't mean to make light of it, it's a tough question. And and I look at my role uh like a caddy. I love to play golf. I'm not really good at it, but I love to play. And on occasion, I've gotten to play a really nice course with a great caddy. Yeah. And a caddy does not tell you what to do. But if you ask, the caddy will say, Well, I've seen this one, and you know, it's a two-club win, and you think that you can get it there, but you can't get it there. I've been watching you. And and so if asked, I will try to take their perspective and demonstrate who I think is the best fit. Now, the times that I will give my opinion is if I think that they've made a snap uh decision, uh if they're not weighing all the evidence, all of the factors that we have, I'll point out where I think that they're missing something. I'll remind them of people who have been successful in their system before and how I see this as a fit. But I I'm not there to tell people, you know, I'm not the expert in the sense that I know what's best for them, but I am the expert in the process to to know the way to get to a good a good decision.

Joel Lawrence 27:08

So yeah, I Yeah, that's I I like that caddy analogy. That's a that's a great analogy. I'm not playing, but I I have played the course before. And you've got experience, and you know how the green you know how the green rolls, and yeah, that's that's really helpful. So um we've talked about this a little bit, but tell us a little bit more about kind of what you know you find intriguing about the Center for Pastor Theologians, about kind of our vision of the pastorate, and how how how you think that can uh help shape the the pastorate as we uh move into the future and and and the work that you're doing to help encourage churches to be thinking about pastors maybe in different ways than they they might.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Well, as I as I said to Dwight when he first explained, you know, uh what you all were doing, I was like, oh, this is my tribe. I mean, this these are my people, right? And uh I know I'm not supposed to say the words nerd pastor because that's very much not true. That works. That works to a ham, Joel. Right. Um just people who think about how does theology look in our world and think through a theological lens about vocation and about, you know, the I have this weird background in that I've been behind the pulpit and I've been in front of the pulpit. I I've I've worked, I've been the president of a company, I've been the you know, number two in a large jewelry chain, I've I've been in the marketplace, going to church, needing, you know, and most of the time I didn't feel like that the person up there really knew how to help me in my world to succeed. And and I had a a friend who said, yeah, every every pastor should work in the marketplace for a while. And it's kind of impractical because you spend all this time getting all these specialized tools. But I, you know, I'm there now. I've I've had as much time in the business world as I have in the pastorate. And I I believe that what you're doing, these cohorts of people who are trained to be shepherds, who are are intentionally forming people in this complex world. I I don't like simplistic solutions. I just I don't think they work. And I, you know, I was just reading the story of Absalom, and and Absalom was, of course, a narcissist and pretended to be a person of the people and and pretended to have the solutions to all their problems, and he sort of tricked them into supporting him. And look, I'm I'm tired of simplistic three-step, you know, uh solutions to be a better dad. It's like that's not what that's not what Jesus asked us to do in the church. And so what I see your you doing is training people to think deeply, to love passionately, to to live with and to shepherd their flock in ways that Peter says that you know we're supposed to uh as under-shepherds of Christ. And I just I love what you do, and I think that it it is theologically and academically sophisticated yet personally, practically, congregationally relevant, right? And and you're in the middle there, you're middlemen. And um, I I also appreciate that you're not running around trying to create platforms for yourself to be more popular and to be more liked. And I mean, I hope lots of people listen to this podcast, but I don't get the sense that you're trying to become celebrities, but rather that you're um investing deeply in local shepherds who then can transform. I mean, the local church is the hope of the world, period. Yeah, period. And you are are are building people who are loving that church. And so you've got a place in my heart.

Joel Lawrence 31:17

Well, we we uh we very much appreciate it. We're we're so grateful for for you and the partnership um that that we have together. Uh, folks who are listening, if you get the CPT newsletter, make sure you look out. That's uh Mission Leadership sponsors our newsletter, and uh we're incredibly grateful for that. If you don't get the CPT newsletter, go to our website and sign up so you so you will get it. As we conclude the conversation, is any anything you want to say from your seat, just to pastors who are listening? You know, as you said, you've been you've been in front of the pulpit, you've been in behind the pulpit, you've been in various different places. Just words of encouragement to pastors who are listening to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

I I was texting a bunch of my pastor friends before Easter and just telling them I was praying that they would proclaim the message clearly as they should, that I was praying for them that God would open a door for the gospel. I was praying that they would make the most of every opportunity and be wise in the way that they act towards inside uh outsiders, as Paul says in Colossians. And I just would say what you do matters so much. No, no one else has the unique uh seat that you do. And and just um I I love my pastor. I I try to encourage him, you know, all the time. And just, you know, what I would say is find a safe place because I know how stressful it is. And that was one of the things that came out of my uh research is that 65% of pastors are not making use of any professional resource. Wow. Wow. And and that's counseling, it's you know, you know, anything in that area. Like you gotta find a safe place where you can continue to get healthy, and that's why I love your cohort model. Yeah, is that you can you can be open and with people that you trust uh and you know, because clergy are living in glass houses, you know. They don't maybe they don't live in a parsonage, but um it it it's it's a pressure cooker. And so finding those folks and goodness, anybody's welcome to call me. I'll listen all day to the problems. I mean, I I I do relate and appreciate the challenges that they face, but man, don't don't give up because uh it it really is uh true that that we win. I mean, it's like the gates of hell won't prevail against the church, right? That's where the promise is and that's where the fruit will be. So I I'm I'm excited.

Joel Lawrence 34:03

Well, we're we're very grateful for you and the work that you're doing to serve pastors, to serve the the church, the broader mission of the church. If people want to get in touch with you, they can go to missionleadership.org and and find you there.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

You can just email me at rich at rich at missionleadership.org. Easy.

Joel Lawrence 34:22

Very good. Very good. Well, thanks for jumping on with us, Rich. I've appreciated the conversation and grateful for our partnership.

Zach Wagner 34:29

Yeah, love what you do. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT on our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Twitter. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Precord. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Hall, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.