Becoming a Pastor Theologians | Matthew LaMaster

In this episode of the CPT Podcast, Matt Lamaster discusses his path into pastoral ministry, from his upbringing in evangelical churches to serving as a pastor in rural Maine. He reflects on the challenges of his first pastorate, the lessons he learned through ministry and theological study, and how his work in the book of Hebrews has shaped his understanding of the pastor theologian’s calling. The conversation explores church leadership, theological formation, and perseverance in ministry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Very young wrestlers reform, you know. I'll just plant a church and I'll show them where I'll take this and turn it around. Like lots of really, really big dreams. I don't really regret it because I learned a ton and I think the Lord used it. And we made some really good deep relationships and friendships there. I wish that I would have not been the kind of person who had to learn the lessons that I learned.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner, and I'm joined by CPT president Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And we just finished up a conversation with Matt Lamaster, who is a CPT fellow, serves as the pastor at Grace Bible Church in Holden, Maine, if I'm not mistaken, our only fellow from Maine, which is kind of fun. And uh he's a newer fellow to the CPT, part of our newly constituted St. Irenaeus Fellowship. And this was one of our becoming a pastor theologian conversations, getting to know Matt and his story of life and faith and education. Um, Joel, what are one or two things that stood out to you about this conversation with Matt?

Joel Lawrence 1:11

Yeah, I I think the the section where he talks about his first pastorate, where he had had six years in a pretty challenging setting and was pretty young and kind of honestly describes himself as coming in with uh probably a little bit of arrogance and a sense of I know what I'm doing here and I'm gonna turn this thing around and it's gonna be awesome. And then uh uh that's not exactly how it went and had some challenges there and just appreciated the way that he he talked about what the Lord did in his heart, how the Lord was shaping him and the pastorate through that time. And you know, he he said a couple of times something to the effect of I I wish I had the character where I didn't have to learn some of these lessons. I think we all do that. I think we all wish we had a character where we don't have to learn some of these lessons. We all learn different ones depending on our character as the Lord is working on that. But I think that's just an important part of these conversations when we're hearing the story of pastors. Um the to hear the hard, the hard stretches and the places where, yeah, the church life is challenging, but the kind of openness of what the Lord was doing in his own life and the necessity of that as part of the of God's grace and God's goodness to shape us as his shepherd. So I I really appreciated that that part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah, that that would have been my answer as well. Um it's a unique kind of it's not really spoilers, I suppose, for the conversation, but kind of like a failed church revitalization story. And the I'm just struck by I know that's that type of painful church experience for pastors is is very common, unfortunately, and and a mismatch perhaps between a congregation and their vision for the future of the church and a pastor or a young pastor who comes in and the pain that can kind of surface in situations like that. And I'm I'm confident that there are folks listening who um have had similar experiences or may find themselves in the midst of something right now that is really painful um and difficult and even in spiritually challenging in a in a profound sense, not not merely just the everyday challenges of ministry. So I think Matt's testimony in that sense is encouraging, as you already said, his openness to what the Lord was doing in his heart, as well as seeing God's faithfulness and bringing him to the other side of it and and uh getting to a much better context now. Yeah. Also, I was struck, you know, he and I have a certain kind of parallel. We're about the same age, went to the same school for undergrad, and we we kind of pal out about that a little bit, which is fun. So that was that was fun for me personally in the conversation. If you were kind of born in the late 80s, late 80s, early 90s, kind of low church evangelicalism, yeah, um, and dispositionalism. You'll yeah. You youngsters reflecting on the years. Yeah, so that that was fun for me, and if I think it'll be for some other listeners as well. So enough from you and me, Joel. Let's get right into the conversation with CPT fellow Matt Lamaster.

Joel Lawrence 4:40

Matt, welcome to the CPT podcast. It's great to have you with us.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's an honor. Thank glad to be part of CPT and glad to be on the podcast.

Joel Lawrence 4:50

So yeah, yeah. So we're doing one of our becoming a pastor theologian podcasts, where we just take the opportunity to get to know uh some of our CPT fellows. And in and in this case, it it really is more of a get-to-know for even for us, because Matt's one of our newest fellows that has joined the St. Irenaeus Fellowship. We had our first uh in-person meeting in February and had a wonderful time together. So we uh are looking forward to this conversation, Matt, and and getting to know your story and uh hope uh trust that it will be an encouragement to those who listen. So um as we begin, why don't you just give us a just a quick overview of of where you are so people have kind of have you located in the world as we have this conversation, then we'll go from there and circle back and hear how you got to there. So we'll we'll we'll kind of start with the end and then go do a flashback.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Yeah, yeah. Um so I am the pastor of Grace Bible Church in Holden, Maine. So um I for if you're not from the states, Maine is as close to not being part of the lower 48 as you can be with while still being attached to to it. So rural, very rural, rural New England, um pastor of church here, it's a great church, glad to be here. So it's and then I do I do a little bit of adjunct teaching at New England Bible College and Seminary, and then I do some other stuff here and there.

Joel Lawrence 6:21

So all right, great. So now we want to hear how you got to Maine, the story of your life that has taken you there in God's.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

I have I'm not sure if that's what you mean to imply, Joel.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

No, I uh I uh so I grew up on the other side of the country, so I grew up in northern Arizona in a per another relatively rural area up in the mountains. And um I grew up, I I don't know, do you want to hear faith's the whole the whole nine yards, or do you want to just go career or give us the story growing up?

Joel Lawrence 6:59

Did you grow up in church? Did you grow up in faith? Yeah, tell us about your yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

So I grew up I grew up um I grew up in the evangelical free church in the town called Prescott, Arizona, um which when I grew up, it was a lot smaller and less built up than it is today. It I think it was the year that I was born, it was rated like the number one place in the world to retire to. So my whole childhood growing up there was just expanding like crazy. But um, so I grew up going to church. My parents um were charter members um at what is today Cornerstone Evangelical Free Church. And um, the pastor that I had there growing up was a really talented expositional preacher, very gifted, um, really loved the word, loved the Lord. Um it was a kind of a classical dispensationalist school, so um very pre m pre-mill, pre-trib. He actually published articles in um that he was really into the free grace movement, and so he published articles. Yeah, which is the other side of for anyone who might not know, it's the other side of the lordship salvation um controversy. So he was on the the other side of John MacArthur and all that, but yeah, I think graciously so.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And um that's that's like dispensationalist E B free insider baseball stuff. Like that's the real those are the bona fides. If if you if you had big fights about free grace and lordship salvation back in the day, that's how you know you were you were you were in it.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

I yeah, I it is that's that's fairly true because if you're not from if you're not from those circles, you like we just said a bunch of words that go right over your head. Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah. Uh it I mean, I was I somewhere on my bookshelf here, I still have some books that I got from the you know from high school um that really promoted a Kazakh kind of model for sanctification and a you know what today we sometimes call like the higher life theology. And so I grew up in all that. I had a fairly chaotic uh childhood um without going into details just for the sake of you know anyone. Just some relatively traumatic things happened to me when I was in um when I was young, when I was a child. I uh our house burned down and some other lot lots of family other drama. But um when I was eight, I was going to a small Christian school, and there was an evangelist kind of guy, revivalist guy, who came in and did a uh spiritual, some kind of revival week or something. And uh I remember him very clearly sharing the gospel when I was eight and rejecting it, just thinking, well, that's not that sounds like something I can do when I'm like old or about to die. And uh I remember the wildest thing and because I've sat on because I'm a pastor, I've done a number of member member interviews. This is not as unusual. I've come to learn that this is not as unusual as it seemed to me at the time, but I had was starting to have really vivid dreams of hell and hellfire, and um it was it, you know, what I always say is like the Lord s literally scared the hell out of me. And I I put my faith in the Lord because I wanted to not go to hell. You know, I've since come to see that the other the other flip side to that, like coming to the Lord is my greatest joy. Um but you know, there hellfire and brimstone sermons were popular for a time for a reason. I mean, you know, it's not like it it might overemphasize some of that in scripture, but it um it certainly is true. So yeah, I grew up um grew up in that setting in that church, and I had a uh I had a here's another like evangelical nineties kid or early aughts. I had um a youth pastor in high school who I don't I don't know where he's at now with these things, but um at the time he was he was super into the emergent church. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Wow, we're getting the whole we're getting the whole deal today.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah, yeah. So he uh I was between learning what I kind of had grown up with and then this youth what this youth pastor taught, I was just a mess theologically.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Was this the same EB3 church youth?

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, which is which is famous, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Same childhood pastor, um, who was again a really talented expositional preacher, and you know, he he knew what he believed. Uh he had such a big tent mindset when it came to church. I think he he didn't really pay attention to some of the warning signs with this particular pastor. And my youth pastor didn't go as off the rails as a lot of those other emergent guys did.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yes. It was not obvious early that that was gonna the way that it did.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Exactly. He didn't break towards you know all the the ways that those emergent guys did, but Yeah, McLaren. A lot of the early yeah, exactly. A lot of the early steps were we watched Numa videos in youth group, like the whole all the early Rob Bell stuff. And yeah, for somebody who has no background in any of this, they're probably I we're probably scaring off all the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I gotta say, I'm loving this, Matt. This is tracking, this is tracking with my church upbringing really nicely so far. I have like a I have a core memory of watching this this uh this breath uh video with Rob, like very early Rob Bell, where he's talking about the tetragrammaton, the grammaton and the Yodhei Vap Hey, and he's like making it like the the the name of God is the sound of breath, and I was like shook for weeks. Um it was a time.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah, yeah, it sounded so profound at the time. I mean, it was you know, my particular if you grew up in a setting that I did, like just very into a certain kind of Bible teaching, but not much in the way of system, you know, systematic theology. Yeah, it it was it was um it was just uh for my own spiritual life, it it wasn't just that my the way I was thinking about the Bible was all messed up. I mean, there's a reason that as the our my story goes on, I I'll talk about you know leaving a lot of that. Like really that approach to sanctification uh just did a number on me. It was legalistic on the one hand, and then uh it like it just it was really really um unhealthy. And so uh that was like my high school years for family reasons, for lots of other reasons, just were emotionally very intense and difficult. And um my first year of college I did at a community college, and then I had an elder of our church. I knew I I well to back up a little bit, I got the call the call to ministry. Our our youth group would do these um the youth Sunday where the youth group would take over the Sunday service. And so um, and I was responsible one of these Sundays for helping with the the sermon, and I just kind of fell in love with it and um fell in love with preaching, um, fell in love with everything about it, and I just kind of thought maybe this is what I would want to do. And then a couple people around me said, you know, you should really think about this, you know, that this is we can see like it seems like you seem very natural, you know, following up. So kind of the internal and external call.

Joel Lawrence 15:21

Matt, did you have some opportunities to preach at that time, or is it just observing preaching, listening to preachers? What what kind of got your heart aflame for for preaching?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

It was just that one time, one or two times where that they were foolish enough to let you know high school, a 17-year-old, you know, touch the pulpit. Um but I don't think I I don't think I preached or taught another, you know, any kind of substantive message until several years later in college. Um it was just it was just that one time it was you know it was kindling. I and I the other thing I I've heard other pastors say this too. I was terrified of public speaking. I mean, but like like I don't know, lots of pastors were when they first started. Uh I don't know if that was your experience or not, but so anyway, so I my first year of college, I was leading a small group, didn't really know who or what I was talking about, but I um I I one of the elders of our church, the same this same church, sat me down and explained the five points of Calvinism to me. And I was pretty much like, yeah, I think that that makes sense. Like I was sold pretty early. I like everybody else, I think. I the the L of the limited atonement was that was the the holdup, but that was I think because it was poorly explained. Yeah. So so fast forward, uh uh I um went to Moody um for undergrad, another commonality between us, Zach. Yeah, and um I just loved it. It was a great education. It was a good time for sorting out some of that kind of weird Kazakh theology, that you know um that model for sanctification in particular, and trying to shed as much of the emergent as I carried so I carried on with me as I could. And uh that was uh we're I met my wife. Uh we met our senior year, and um which is laid by moody standards.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

I was just gonna say meeting senior year, that's that's that's cutting it close.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

I yeah, I yeah, I always have a flair for the dramatic, I think, you know. I uh all of my other friends were married way before me. It was but but um just I mean my wife is wonderful and excellent. So it was worth she was worth worth uh waiting for the right one to come along. That's that's good.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

That's good. Yeah, well, well Stan, are yeah, I was I was gonna ask, um, yeah, are there any any particular courses or or classes that you took in theology or in biblical studies during your undergrad that were especially meaningful in you you said is you know you've kind of come from this patchwork of theological influences, which I think is the case for a lot of yeah, I often call them like eager eager beaver Bible school kids, where you're an engaged youth.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

That's a good description. I think it's a little bit more angsty than that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, fair enough.

unknown 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Sometimes the angst uh the well, you you spend freshman year debating about Calvinism and then you're angsty in your software or something along those lines. But yeah, any any any classes or professors that stuck out in your mind and helping you kind of shape that theologicality for yourself?

SPEAKER_03 18:51

Yeah, great question. I mean, the thing about an education is it's cumulative. So in some sense, like all the all the classes that I had, you know, and all the professors that I had were, you know, I think contributed to um what I was able to get from Moody. I mean, uh Greg Quiggle's historical theology courses were everyone I know who texted it says the same thing. Like it was just that good. I think what's so good about it is he made you look at the primary sources.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

He did. And um super socratic in his teaching style too, which was great. He just asked you questions about primaries, which was one of the things.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was this is the cruel streak I have. It's because I have brothers. It was a little bit uh it was always exciting to see because you knew that some kids would not prepare very well for their day to present. And you could always tell when they didn't, but um, yeah. I mean, I took a couple other classes with him too. I took a History of American Protestantism class. So good.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

That would be my answer to that I just asked you to see.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

It was so good. I I'm a I'm finally right just now working my way through Ian Murray's revival and revivalism. And um, I don't know why he didn't have us read that. Because that I mean it's it's exactly what he was communicating in that class, but I took Protestant history of Protestant Reformation with him. I took a bunch of like biblical theology courses with Gerald Peterman, which were excellent. Yeah, there's others that I that I did take. I I took as many as I could with Dr. Van Lanningham. I'm trying to think. I mean, it's one of those questions where it's like, well, where do you start? But um I uh so yeah, I took, you know, that I think that answers the question. I can keep going, but yeah.

Joel Lawrence 20:39

Let me uh let me jump in and ask while you're at Moody, is you you had to call the ministry in high school. Um is that solidifying it, Moody? Tell talk to us a little bit about the form that that was taking while you were going through your undergrad process. And then at what point did did further education, seminary, uh keeping on with the theological education track, when did that start to come into your planning?

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Yeah, so short answer, I the seminary question is easier. Pretty early on, I knew that I would want to do seminary. I mean, for me, for so much of my life, the constraint has always been cost, you know. I grew up so poor. My parents, God bless them, they love me, they love Jesus. They just were not able to help very much with uh at all, really, with college. And then same, you know, same with seminary. So but I knew that I wanted to go to college, just like I knew I needed to go to college, I didn't really want to go to college. I I knew that I needed to go to seminary, I just I didn't know how I was gonna make it happen. So um, but um the the other question about you know call to ministry being solidified, yeah. That's a great question. I what's funny is I did have a couple opportunities to teach here and there and to preach here and there. It wasn't like it, it wasn't I knew students at Moody who were preaching like every Other week or doing pulpit spot. It wasn't like that. Just you know, church. I went to really two different churches at my time at Moody. And one gave me a couple opportunities to preach, and then the other asked me to lead a small group. And it was a great small group, you know. It was um, but it wasn't I I would say I was probably not as active as with a lot of that as other students at Moody. That's a great question. I I just kind of assume I I felt like the call of the Lord was on my life, and so I probably was proud, prideful enough that it was probably good that I didn't get more opportunities.

Joel Lawrence 22:36

So did you go did you go straight to seminary then after undergrad or what what was that path?

SPEAKER_03 22:44

So my wife and I yeah, great question. So my wife and I met we got married the day after graduation, after senior graduation. I always tell, like when I do premarital counseling, I always say not to do that. Uh I've had at least one student mostly ignore that that advice. But so yes, we got married the day after graduation, and then um the first year we were just it was good, it was good. I really wanted to go to seminary, and I applied to like a bunch of uh ministry jobs, and I just there was nothing. And so I was working at Lou Mal Notties at the time um in downtown, and so I I mean I just kept working there, and she was she was um working at Moody Radio at the time, and so um because there just nothing else lined up, I ended up going back to Moody a year later for seminary because I it was such a good break on tuition. And so Moody Seminary will ended up being it was the emphasis at the seminary at the time um was very giving on giving practical ministry skills as compared with kind of the head knowledge um for the undergrad. So um at that time I started going to Addison Street Community Church on the north side, and I was a pastoral resident for my first year of seminary with with Will Pereja there, and that was when I got a lot more ministry, actual ministry experience about what it actually looks like. Yeah. And so I yeah, but I went to Moody's seminary to Moody's undergrad, and then I went to Moody's seminary. And then my after a year of the residency with Will, I really was itching to preach more. Um and so I had a um a pastor friend who I really respected who told me, you know, you really should just find somewhere that will let you preach. If that's what you know you want to do, just you know, you're gonna take just take some small church and and do it. And so after my freshman, or after my after about two-thirds of the way through seminary, um, I went, I took a small pastor in Anderson, Indiana. Um and I was so like I thought I could, you know, like very young wrestlers reform, you know. I thought I could, you know, I'll just plant a church and I'll show them where I'll take this and turn it around. Like had lots of really, really big dreams stepping into this church. And it was like so much.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

You're you're you're you're uh this was the moment. You were you're a man of your time all the way all the way down. You know, this was the church of evolution planting. Oh yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

And it was so gut-wrenchingly hard, and it was so naive of me. You know, this is a church that we didn't, it was one of these churches where they did not know the right questions to ask, and if they went in the interview process, and if they had, they almost certainly would have not hired if they would have not hired me, and I didn't I knew some of the right questions to ask them, and I asked them, and they gave me the answer, and I knew that they did not answer correctly, and I just went anyways. It was such a like foolhardy thing. I really wish that I would have been able to be an associate pastor somewhere first. I think that would have been a lot better for me. Um I I'm I don't really regret it because I learned a ton and I think the Lord used it, and we made some really good deep relationships and friendships there. And so I'm very grateful for that, but I wish that I would have not been the kind of person who had to learn the lessons that I learned.

unknown 26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

At that. Uh yeah.

Joel Lawrence 26:37

How long were you there? How long did that pasture it last?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Uh six years.

Joel Lawrence 26:41

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

So yeah, it was uh it I mean it it couldn't have been more different than you know being a you know, living in downtown Chicago. It was yeah. Anderson is one of those cities that um I don't know if you guys ever read um just not this is not a comment on the politics, right? But on I don't know if you guys have ever read Hillbilly Elogy by JD Vance.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah. Um both Joel and I, we've talked about we've talked about that book before. And it's and very happy. I I would say indep independent of anyone's political position, it's well worth reading.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Oh, it's so yeah. I wish I yeah, I mean, it wasn't about Anderson, but it it might as well have been. I mean, it was I thought I was moving to like Wisconsin or something, but it was it really was like moving to, you know, all these people from the south had just moved up, you know, from Appalachia, moved up, and it was total culture shock for me because I did not understand those dynamics at all, you know. But um it it was the church was had been founded as a seeker-sensitive kind of church, and it had just had cycles and cycles of dysfunction it and growth and you know, boom and bust and and lots of church splits. And so it was you know, they took a long shot hiring me, and I took a long shot uh going there, and it it was a very, very difficult um ministry in a lot of ways. I mean, everything from you know having to discipline a charter member to um getting death threats to you know walking into um to walking into you know when someone commits suicide being the first person in the room. I mean like it just like yeah, but you know, not for a second do I regret work trying to bring reform to the church, trying to teach like big gaunt theology, substantive theology to the church. I mean I I don't think I would have lasted if I was committed to kind of a pragmatic model for ministry. Like because I think it it it's in times of you know suffering and a difficulty, like that's when your theology comes through, and that's like where it becomes substantive. So I like it was an incredibly difficult season, uh, but you know, we got to see the Lord do like a lot of really um beautiful and sweet things through that. And so I'm grateful, grateful for it. Again, I wish that I would have had the character that I wouldn't have had to learn the lessons that I think I needed to learn. So um it was about halfway through my time there, maybe a little bit more, um, when um my wife and I have been trying to have children for a number of years, and we just were going through infertility, and so um we didn't know if we'd be able to have kids, and so I was like, well, I know that I have time right now, so you know I'm gonna pursue a doctoral program um in the middle of this in the middle of this ministry. And so I wanted to do because I did my last year at seminary online, so I wanted to do a I wanted to do a doctoral program that was within driving distance, and I wanted some I wanted to get out of the moody mold. I wanted to do something that was just different. Um so I went to Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, um, which is for those who don't know a conservative Lutheran school. And really, really good faculty. I mean, it it was I even now I look now that I I didn't know anything about the Lutheran world, I look back at some of the faculty who are teaching at this, you know, relatively small school in Indiana, and I'm like, this is like a outside of Lutheran circles, it is a very well-kept secret. I mean, it is like uh I had my first class there, I had Ben Mays who was on the editorial team for translating Luther's works into English. I mean, and my doctor father is, you know, um one of the worldwide experts on early Christology. I mean, just like it was an amazing, it was an amazing experience. And it was so, so unlike um anything that I uh had done at Moody, it was really good for me. So I uh so when I was doing the tour of the school there, you guys will think this is funny. I uh they were showing me around the campus, and um Dr. Dr. Masaki was kind of showing me the he's the program director, he's showing me, you know, this or that or whatever. And we get to like the student fellowship center, and I'm like, what is that thing over there? He's like, oh, that's the beer keg, because that's where the professors, you know, they they'll have a they'll have a pint with their with their students, you know, on Friday. It's like a thing. We're not in we're not at Moody anymore. That's a and yeah, exactly. He asked me that, I was like, yeah, I don't have a problem with that at all. But I was like, I am not at the Moody Bible.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

That's right. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Um yeah, so that was, I mean, it was a um it was uh yeah, I I can't say enough good things about Concordia.

Joel Lawrence 32:25

And so you you mentioned your doctor, your doctor father, uh uh early Christology. Is that what what was the topic of your dissertation?

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Yeah, so I wrote on imitation in Hebrews. So um so Paul talks in First Corinthians about imitate me as I imitate Christ. And so um I wrote on that same theme in the rhetoric of Hebrews, um, which in New Testament circles called mimesis. So um it was it was great because it was Hebrews is such a nobody knows anything about Hebrews in the New Testament world. So it's good to like break some new ground.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Yeah. Um, but it I it was it was also good because there's all kinds of really interesting like theological questions about how do you relate Hebrews to the rest of the Bible. Like how do you relate Hebrews isn't written by Paul, but like it's always found with Paul's letters, you know, except for until you get later. And so like you have to do, you have to be grounded in good canonical method to do work on Hebrews. And then one of my big theses was and is, is that imitation follows the rest of uh ideology or s or theology, and so imitation for the early Christians is different than imitation for the Greeks and Hebrews, it f it follows other concerns, and so because I was working with Dr. Gishin, the that linked really well with his emphasis on early Christology and like the importance of like the early Christian doctrine about who Christ is and how that how that shapes how people actually imitate Christ is different than you know if you were to say to imitate Hercules or to imitate you know who whomever uh from the ancient world um because of their con settled convictions about Christ, even when Hebrews is written. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 34:29

So you you you've talked a little bit about the the challenge of the of the church position, the Lord doing work in you through that. I I'm curious with the the doctoral work, deep study of Hebrews imitation of Christ, how how has the Lord used that study to to shape your your vision of the pastorate and kind of the trajectory that you've been on as a pastor theologian?

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Yeah, that's an excellent question. Um there is actually a whole chapter in my dissertation about the imitation of leaders in the church, because in Hebrews there's kind of the found you know, the prototype of imitation of people to imitate being Abraham, and then you have the the clo great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 11, all the figures in Hebrews 11, who are kind of iteration iterations of Abraham, and the art type is Christ. Um so you have kind of like this running trajectory throughout redemptive history. Um, but then you get to Hebrews 13, 7, um, which talks about you know the remember those leaders um who taught the word of God to you, observe their way of life and imitate their faith. And it's so interesting that like the last person that he talks about imitating is leaders in Hebrews, uh, in Hebrews 13. And the there's there's reflections of imitate you if you're gonna imitate Christ, there's concrete models that God puts in front of you, namely pastors. And so if you're a pastor, that that has certain implications about the way that you you want to behave in a way that's imitable, like you want to behave in a way that's exemplary, and you want to even the way that you preach, you want to preach in a way that is a model for for how you want your people to read the Bible. And it's great. And there depending on how someone takes Hebrews 13 10, if you take that to be a reference to the Lord's Supper, um, which you should, because it is, uh that's that's my influence at the Lutheran school coming through. If you take that to be a reference to the Lord's Supper, like that makes this whole process of imitation a form of catechesis of pre preparation to take the Lord's table. Yeah. So yeah, I mean it had it it's a pretty nerdy in the weeds topic, but it has a ton of pastoral implications. And you see there's intersections with that in Paul's letters, um, and in the gospels and elsewhere. So yeah, that's a great question.

Joel Lawrence 37:26

So to take us now from okay, so we're in Anderson, Indiana. Uh you're now in in Holden, Maine. How does one move from get from Anderson, Indiana to Holden, Maine?

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Yeah, that's a good question. Uh so at the end of six years, uh, my wife and I, we both just kind of reached a point where we were like, I think we've done what we basically can. And what the conclusion that I have come to about that is, and I've heard other guys who have had similar experiences with different traditions, that particular church was founded as a um the the heritage of the church is a rest was a restorationist church. So disciples of Christ, church of Christ, Christian Church, for those who don't know. And so um as the church itself got healthier, it didn't revert to the kind of church that I wanted it to be, which was, you know, a reformed church. Um it reverted to what it was founded to be. Um reverted to its restorationist roots. Yeah, to its restorationist heritage. Exactly. And there was uh and so the way that certain things are handled in that tradition, uh just by conviction, uh I can't go there um with certain the way that you know you do typically church discipline, church membership, that kind of stuff. And so we kept coming into conflict whenever we would we would have church discipline cases. And there was one case in particular where I really felt like the church needed to act one way, and um the other elders at the time did not feel like that that would be true towards the the heritage of the church, and so and every time we would go through one of these things, even after six years, it would just get more and more contentious. And this this this part sadly, this particular case, I felt like it was pretty clear-cut and and so it was just kind of like we came to the realization at the same time. My w both my wife and I, as I was kind of processing this with her, we're like, I think we've done what we can here. And so um, you know, we've done, you know, I think the longer that we're at this church, I've been able to get it to a level of health, the Lord has, I should say. And um, but that level of health now it needs to go in a particular direction. Yeah. Um and so if it if the church is gonna, you know, come out of the cycles of you know decades of dysfunction, really truly, it it needs it needs someone who can take it in that particular direction. So um so, anyways, we both kind of came to that conclusion, and I knew so. My wife is from a few hours south of here, and I knew of this particular church and the pastor at this church, my predecessor, uh here in Holden, who was an excellent pastor, um, but I hadn't I knew through just some family connections that he was leaving. And I I at the time I was reassessing my understanding of baptism, you know, if I was at the time I I was I I had jumped, I'd transitioned out of dispensationalism into a more covenant model for understanding scripture. And I was really re-assessing what that what that meant for my understanding of baptism. And so I needed to I knew if I was gonna be at a church, I needed to be at a church which would give me freedom about that particular issue. And um it it I if I if I did end up, I didn't want to start it, get two years into a church and then become a paedo-baptist, which is basically what happened. And then and then if that uh if I would have been in another church, I have to be like, well, sorry, I've changed my mind, I gotta go somewhere else. I didn't want to do that mid-transition. So um, but that pastor, this the pastor who so this church has had a long-standing policy about it's kind of a to call it a Bible church, a little bit of misnomer of trying to be a home for both Credo and Paedo Baptists. I mean, this that's been the policy for as long as this church has been in existence. So um the previous pastor, um, for for a number of reasons, the Lord was just calling him to another ministry. And I was like, yeah, I kind of know of that church a little bit. And um a friend of mine actually in Anderson had a close had a connection with him, with his church here. And I think what happened was he gave that pastor my my contact information. So I hadn't I didn't even apply or anything. They they reached out to me and just said, hey, would you be interested in it? And it was just it was like the next day or something that I I had had that conversation. So it was just like it just seemed to be one thing leading to the next, and got to talk to the elders here and just really um really loved them and loved their heart and um was just really it just uh seemed like the Lord's hand was in it, um, to put it simply, you know. So that's how we got here. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 42:55

So how how long have you been there now?

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Since the end of year four. Um August will be four years, yeah.

Joel Lawrence 43:03

So so so uh we more death here yet. Okay, that's always that's a good sign.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

There's still more people here, but I think more people here is done great an improvement as anyone oh well there you go.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I was gonna say as great of an improvement as any pastor can ask for. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 43:25

So Matt, let's uh let as we wrap up the conversation, would just love to hear a little bit about how you uh think about the identity of the pastor theologian and how that that shapes the way you understand your calling and how you live that calling out there at your church.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Uh yeah, it's a great question, especially since the Center for Pastor Theologians. Um I so to some degree, I think I'm still learning that. I think I'm still figuring out precisely what it looks like to be a pastor theologian. Um In a sense of doing theology as more than a local theologian, you know, at a church. So so in some sense, I think I'm still figuring out precisely what that means. But what I'm grateful for is I think the privilege of writing and the privilege of being able to be sometimes an informal guide for other pastors. You know, where we live, there's a lot of pastors who maybe maybe have a four-year degree, maybe. I mean, maybe, you know, or a two-year certificate from somewhere or something like you know, there's there's a lot of pastors in this area who don't have any formal education. And so getting to be a kind of a mentor and a theological guide for some of those guys is it is a huge privilege. Um, and so for me, I I want to be faithful with the doors that the Lord opens. And um I think one of the um reasons I'm excited to be part of CPT is already it's been um really encouraging and helpful to be in a setting where um that's encouraged and that's exemplified and that's you know challenged and pushed because I I do want to be able to learn well about what that what precisely that looks like. But in my setting here, it involves as an identity of trying to understand the Lord better and his word better and trying to preach as faithfully as I can and write as well as I can for his glory and trusting the Lord for other opportunities that I have to, you know, whether it's teaching at the school here or uh, you know, just through one-on-one conversations with other pastors and church leaders, or you know, lecturing for a group of pastors, or whatever it is, that like the Lord will use, um will use the ways that He's gifted and called and taught me, uh, both in the classroom and kind of in the trenches of ministry to help other pastors and to help other churches. And so that's a long way of saying, I hope that I'm a blessing to others. And I'm still figuring out precisely uh the right avenue and the the exact the exact contours for what that looks like. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 46:39

Sure. And I yeah, that that never stops the figuring out what this what this is all about and what this calling means. But thank Matt, thanks so much for joining us and and sharing your story. Uh great to to hear the the way that the Lord has been at work in your life and directing your life. And we're we're grateful for you and your presence up there in Maine and and pray that the Lord will will bless you, your pastorate, and and that you will be a you'll be a blessing to to all those around you.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

So huge on huge honor to to be part of CPT and to um get to imitate you and uh to to serve alongside. Uh and learn it and happy to come on and uh tell tell my story in the way the Lord's work. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Thanks, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

God bless. Take care. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Steph Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Steph Freecorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.