Becoming a Pastor Theologian | Kyle Fever

In this episode, we are joined by pastor theologian Kyle Fever to discuss his journey from a Lutheran upbringing and love of biblical scholarship into pastoral ministry. Kyle reflects on the shifting nature of vocation, the challenges of balancing academic aspirations with family life, and how his daughter’s traumatic brain injury profoundly reshaped his understanding of ministry, calling, and faithfulness.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I didn't feel like I had to prove anything to my congregation. And that changed really fast, where I was like, oh, no. This is about being vulnerable. And being vulnerable and walking with people in the steps of Jesus in a way that is is transformative. Transformative beyond just like sharing the information that you know.

Zach Wagner 0:24

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I'm joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. We just finished up a conversation with one of our newer CPT fellows, Dr. Kyle Fever, who serves as discipleship pastor at Zion Clearwater, which is in northern Iowa. He also is a friend of, I can't remember if we mentioned this on the recording or before it, but a friend of another CPT fellow, Steve Turnbull, who connected us with Kyle recently, teaches at the Masters Institute, which Steve is also involved in, and uh is part of the Lutheran tradition. And this was a conversation where we got to know Kyle a little better, hear about his story and how the Lord's been working in his life and his family's life over the years. What stood out to you about our time with Kyle, Joel?

Joel Lawrence 1:19

Yeah, I just really appreciated kind of his honesty around the uncertainty of calling and the shifting nature of calling. Uh he was uh pursuing academic ministry, kind of had to go into the pastorate, as as he describes it in certain ways. And and yet how the Lord has really been at work in his life in that process, but also through some circumstances with his family that he'll talk about, how that has shifted. And and even now, in a time of figuring out what is it, what is this calling to be the pastor? And I I think it's um just an important reminder, as we we talk about a little bit in the podcast, that because we get a vocational calling or a call to be a pastor, that that that's always shifting in some way. And and it's not just a locked-in thing. We're always learning what it means to live into this calling. And I just appreciated him sharing that with us and his story with a great deal of honesty.

Zach Wagner 2:18

Yeah, and we did get to that theme towards the end of calling not being kind of a punctilar thing where you receive it at 18 and you're like, oh, I'm supposed to be a pastor theologian. Um, but rather viewing it as a lifelong process of discipleship and hearing the voice of the Lord calling you into what he has next in whatever season that may be. And I think Kyle's in the middle of a season where he's discerning that and listening for that. And uh, yeah, really resonate with everything you said. And of course, and I I thought another highlight of the conversation was some of the stuff about discerning how and where to study. I think uh folks will find that part of the conversation uh really interesting and helpful as well. So uh, but it is uh uh you know, nice, beefy, far-ranging conversation. Beefy is such a weird word. I don't know why uh we have that in our lexicon, but there it is. Uh so you used it. There you go. Yeah, yeah. We're going back now. Uh so uh well, enough of you and uh I droning on. Let's get into the conversation with CPT fellow Kyle Fever.

Joel Lawrence 3:38

Kyle, it's great to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Thanks for joining us. Thank you guys for the invitation and uh yeah, the opportunity to uh be part of this. It's been absolutely even the short time I've been I've been involved with uh uh a CPT group, uh I've enjoyed it already. So great.

Joel Lawrence 3:58

Yeah, so you you have uh joined us fairly recently in the last uh few months, joined our St. Hildegard group through a connection with Steve Turnbull, who is one of our uh fellows. Uh you guys uh have known each other through Lutheran pastor world. So right? Yeah, so you got connected CPT through Steve.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Steve, our relationship goes way back uh quite a ways. We um rang about Lutheran Pastor World only because we're both Lutheran pastors, but I think our friendship was outside of that kind of context, genuinely. Yeah, um and our kids becoming friends uh from very, very young age together, and just uh our wives are very close. And so it's yeah, it's great. Really cool. It's great.

Joel Lawrence 4:46

It's fun how different people find their way to the CPT, and and certainly one of the things we see a lot is these kind of relational connections, and uh it's always always good to have more Lutherans in the group as well. So yeah, maybe I don't know quite the quite the statement. There you go.

Zach Wagner 5:01

There you go. All always, I'm not sure that's a that's a strong word, but yeah, the ones we think we'll take the ones we'll take. Yeah, that's yeah.

Joel Lawrence 5:10

So uh uh thanks again for joining us, Kyle. Looking forward to the conversation as we're gonna be hearing your story of becoming a pastor theologian. Um, so why don't we begin in your in your younger years? Tell us uh about your childhood, your faith journey, where you grew up, uh kind of the early part of your biography.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah. Um, so I grew up in Des Moines, Iowa, um, to uh I would say just a very typical blue-collar-ish uh American family. My church faith experience uh started out very young. Um I would say at least as as a as a youth, as a kid growing up, um, you know, I saw one side of things, so I'm sure that it's more complex than this, but but from what I recall, I grew up in a very um life-giving and healthy Lutheran church in Iowa called Zion Lutheran. And what I remember growing up was not uh I I remember more of like massive family experience than like a typical churchy kind of experience. Uh the the church I grew up in, I re I rec it was kind of folksy. Like it was Lutheran for sure. Um, but the memories I have are of um playing uh guitar. Uh this is like late 70s into the early 80s, you know, songs in worship being led by acoustic guitar and choirs singing and people singing. And even there are a couple of ladies, uh, I can't remember their names off the top of my head, my parents would tell me exactly, but you know, running up and down the aisles with like a uh a white handkerchief dancing, spirit-led dancing in this Lutheran church. Uh so it and I remember just like extravagant uh small group ministry where what I know most of church life is this context where families getting together, being there for one another, and their kids growing up together, and church potlucks in the summer at campgrounds around Des Moines and stuff, and and uh a vibrant youth group, but we never had a youth director. Like it was so it was this it was this kind of experience that made being part of a church in faith kind of this like who doesn't have this? I mean, is there a different and and so I never had like a negative experience really growing up, um and it really fueled uh just a genuine sense of uh this is just kind of who we are, this is what we do uh sort of experience for me growing up in faith. And um yeah, I I really really value that still.

Joel Lawrence 8:04

So yeah, that's what a gift. What a gift. That's tremendous. Uh i in the midst of that, Kyle, did did you did you struggle with faith? Was was faith kind of uh ever present in your life? And just like how how did how did you you sense God's presence in your life and and and live that out as you grew up?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, it was kind of it was just kind of this thing. Like I know I don't think I ever experienced real struggles um until later. Uh, but life of faith was so kind of a part of the fabric of everyday stuff that um I I didn't know the idea of struggling with faith didn't really occur to me be I think in a good way, in one way, because um I had been taught informed by my congregation how to live with faith and and hold also tragedy and difficulty in the same in the same thing. Uh in and I remember in our congregation that you know often in Sunday mornings people would bring their their sorrows and their griefs openly to prayer in the in the mid, you know, at the end of at the end of Sunday worship. We'd all that was part of the routine. And um and so I learned like, oh, these people are coming to God, coming to one another as part of the faith community with their griefs and their joys, and and we're and we're there for one another walking through this together as part of what it means. And so the idea of like wrestling and struggling with faith never really occurred to me um for a while until I I think I was in high school and and I started just like all through that time, uh, you know, I was I was an avid reader of I was the kid that like spent Friday night in my bedroom reading scripture instead of whatever. And it's not like I removed myself from all my friends and stuff. I mean, I still did the typical high school stuff, but like, but I enjoyed that, you know. And so I I kind of was nurtured in this uh environment of uh seeking to understand who God was and and who I am even more. And but but yeah, questions came eventually as I was in high school and college, just wondering about you know, Jesus died on the cross for my sin. So what? I mean, what does that really do? You know, I mean stuff like that would would would I'd wrestle with.

Joel Lawrence 10:26

I want I want to um kind of dig into that as we go through your journey, but just an observation. You you know, you mentioned this church, um, just the kind of routine, the the structure, and you know, I think he's at about 150 to 200 people. I I don't know if there's an ideal church size. I think churches, lots of things can vary, but but there is something about around that kind of a number where it's enough people that you know you kind of feel like there's a critical mass of people, but also you can know everybody, and there there can be a depth of the fellowship there. And the things I hear coming through is it's just kind of you guys, that community just lived faith, and and it wasn't it wasn't flashy, it was but it was just lived faith, and I think there's something very beautiful about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, and and that's what I look back and remember. I mean, like you said, I didn't we didn't know everyone really well, but we knew, but we knew them, you know, we knew these families, and there were some families that I remember being like, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old and being like, yeah, they're different than us, they're weird, you know, or something like that. You know, but they're part of the church family, and so you loved them, and and you didn't hang out with them all the time, but they're still there. And and they heard your prayer concerns, and you heard theirs, and you were there for each other.

Joel Lawrence 11:45

And so you're you've got your wild Friday nights in your room reading your Bible as a as a teenager. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

That was so Go ahead. Oh no, that the the weird this story, this story gets weirder. Uh because so uh probably when I was, I don't know, eight, nine years old, my mom introduced me to Christian music.

Joel Lawrence 12:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And this is cassette tapes.

Joel Lawrence 12:08

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

And she the first one I got was this live album by this band called Petra. Oh, yeah.

Zach Wagner 12:16

Petra Praise, or what are we what are we working with?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

No, this is way, way back. This is this is Petra. I would recommend getting it. It's still a good album. But uh it's called Captured in Time and Space. It's Petra Live, I think it's 1983. I was I was gonna say 83. Oh wow, but that's a good guess. Yeah, that's probably far back. I could be off on that, but it was it was the Beat the System tour Petra, I think it's 1983. Uh anyway, and so that uh I loved music, rock and roll, all that stuff. And uh that kind of opened my world to something that I didn't know existed, because like it from my perspective, that it was good, good rock and roll. But in in the cassette tape thing, you open it up and there's liner notes and all that, and there's song lyrics, and with the song lyrics, there are scripture verses. And this was like par for the course for Christian rock in the 1980s. And so I that just kind of set me on this journey of like I started buying Christian rock and roll, Christian heavy metal uh music and listening to it. Just I loved it. And and part of it, I loved the music, uh, because it was a great alternative to you know, like Metallica and Slayer and whatever, which I still listen to them too. But uh but like um but in the but the lyrics like fueled my faith. Like I would read these lyrics and they'd be the words that like that create that formed faith for me. Um and but along with that were were scripture verses. So I'm reading the lyrics, listening to songs, looking up the Bible verses and highlighting all of them in my Bible and all that stuff. And that's I think for me that was my entry into like into scripture and into like this experience of faith where I'm sharing this experience with other people, but yet I'm I'm taking it in uh personally in a way that meets me where I'm at in my life, and and but it wasn't you know, it wasn't cookie cutter or anything, it was it was uh yeah, I don't know how else to describe it.

Joel Lawrence 14:19

I love it. Discipled by by cassette tape liner notes. Yeah. That's so eighty, that's very 80s. I love it. It is.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Now I look back though, I have to after my education and all that, and I look back on some of them, I'm like, there's some really bad theology in some of the songs. Yeah, yeah. But somehow, somehow it got me to where I am, you know. So I'm like, I don't know what to do. I still today I don't know what to do with that. Like you thank you, thank the Lord, you thank God, and yeah.

Joel Lawrence 14:47

So so that that's take that takes us through high school. Uh, what's your journey into undergrad? And uh at what point uh does call to ministry, thinking about being a pastor, uh at what point does that start to enter into your mind?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, that took a while. Um so yeah, my journey late high school into college, I was heavily involved in um a Bible camp in Okiboji, Iowa, called Okoboji, Okoboji Lutheran Bible Camp. That's where I had gone in high school as a camper and was really influenced by the counselors and their person. So it was everything from my growth has been somehow really personal, and I think that's how it is and should be for a lot of people. But but these experiences of these college-age students who had I I think a very mature and robust faith, but then who knew how to share it and mentor kids a few years younger like me. And that and so then I I kind of like followed suit, and so through college I was a Bible camp counselor every summer at this camp. And and I think that was another part of the journey where I learned uh and grew in my faith in in meaningful ways in community with others, you know, but in a way that's really um informal and just relational. Yeah. And um and I think that was a big part of my journey in terms of ongoing faith development. Uh uh a call to ministry still never really hit. And and so I I go to I went to Wartburg College in Iowa, a small Lutheran college. Uh I went there to uh run track and I had an art scholarship. And other than that, I'm like, I don't even know what I have no idea what I want to do.

Joel Lawrence 16:36

What what was your art medium? Where were you? Mostly penciling it.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, mostly pencil drawing, uh uh colored pencil sketching, that kind of stuff. First semester there was like transformative because like I went my first art class, I'm like, this is boring and dumb, and I don't want to do this. Because I'm like being taught how to draw, and I'm like, I already know how to draw. So what are we doing? And at the same time, I took an old testament class from a guy named Chip Buzzard, Old Testament professor at Wartburg, uh, who ended up being a uh real mentor to me for a long time. And um, it was a class on Genesis, and I remember the first day, first semester of this class, walking out of class, being like, I think I just found out what I want to do for a living. Because what he taught first day of class was so enriching and captivating, but also transformative for my faith. Because he was saying things that like I didn't learn in church growing up, and but I didn't have a horrible experience in church growing up either. It's just a depth of understanding scripture that like totally hit the button that that I didn't know I had that needed to be pushed. And and then he, you know, as the semester went on, he invited students to his house and he smoked backwood cigars and we'd like hang out and chat about life and eat food and stuff. And I'm like, I you can do this for a living. I had no idea this was on the radar of a possibility for a career. And so I think very early on in my freshman year, I'm like, whatever I need to do to do what he does, I'm gonna do that. And so I kind of committed there to um because I remember talking with him, I'm like, more people in the church need to have this experience and uh and this enriching uh understanding of scripture that helps their faith, that deepens their life. And he was like, Yes, they do. You should be a pastor, and I was like, No, I don't want to be a pastor, but I want to do what you do. And he's like, Okay, well, you know, here's what you gotta do. And so um, so I committed then to getting uh you know, going on to getting a master's and then PhD so I could teach teach college kids.

Joel Lawrence 18:55

So so were you a in that moment or in that time when he's saying you should be a pastor and you're saying no? What what was it about being a pastor that you think you were rejecting? Yeah, I'm I'm curious kind of what was going on. If you if you remember, was there specific things you were you were not sure about, or was it a sense of no, that's a that's a serious serious calling? I'm not ready to commit to that. What what was it?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I think it was maybe two things. One, it was more like I was so committed to what he was doing that like I didn't want to consider other options.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 19:31

But I think that's part of it. You wanted to smoke, you smoke cigars and hang out and talk and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I wanted to teach the Bible to college kids and and open their eyes the way my eyes had been opened, you know, deeper. So I think I was so committed to that trajectory that like all other options weren't even worth considering. Yeah. On the other hand, though, I think there was this sense of like, no, that I think that would be boring if I were to be a pastor. Because I loved my pastor growing up. Um, I think he was a wonderful pastor and compassionate and and not you know, not stiff and stodgy, like great guy. And uh but at the same time, uh I think in my imagination, doing what he did for a living would have been not not fun for me. So I just yeah, I just didn't want to pursue that.

Joel Lawrence 20:24

So but but it did set a trajectory on an educational path as an undergrad. For sure, yeah. So so did you go take us from undergrad, did you go to seminary pretty straight away?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah. So I did undergrad and did a lot of like I dove into all the new I I I ended up gravitating to New Testament. Um I I really found exploring and understanding how the how the the New Testament writers, but then the early church, you know, what were just I wanted to understand more what was going on to understand like how this thing emerged from Jesus, you know, this uh this thing we call the church now, and and what they were going through and and the dynamics. And so I just wanted to learn more about that.

Zach Wagner 21:12

So and I like that interest emerging, Kyle, would you say? Like in the timeline undergrad, grad school, like when was that kind of undergrad, for sure, undergrad.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, yeah. So the New Testament guy, a guy named Fred Strickert, uh, was also a mentor to me in that time, and um and he taught classes on Jesus. Uh he was way back in the day involved in the Jesus seminar. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, oh yeah. But he was on the conservative side uh theologically of that group. So like he he he was in it for a little while, and he was like, Yeah, this is this is I'm not down with a lot of the stuff they're doing, so no more. Um, but he opened my my life to like um because he taught classes on Jesus, historical Jesus, but then also the social. World of the Gospels. And it's that stuff on the social world of the Gospels that I really gravitated toward because I was like, oh, there's it's not just like scripture's not just these words on the page that somehow like jump out and like magically do something. Like there's there's a depth and a complexity to what's being written there. And there's a social world behind it that's forming uh what the New Testament writers are writing, and that just like fascinated me to no end. And so that was that was the lead into that. And plus I like Greek more than Hebrew, and so that was made it easy. But so then from there to seminary? Yeah. Not immediately. So my wife and I got married my senior year, and she did student teaching in Des Moines, and so while we're in Des Moines, I managed a few coffee shops, and I really loved that world. And so I was like, oh, I like this. But I like during my breaks as manager of these coffee shops, like I'd have um uh Robert Mounts' Greek textbook, and I'd be reading, learn teaching my reviewing, reteaching myself Greek in my breaks. I'm like, okay, this isn't gonna go away. So I should probably do something. So after a couple years of managing coffee shops and whatever, I finally made the move to go to Luther Seminary in St. Paul to get a master's in biblical studies in New Testament, and that set it off.

Joel Lawrence 23:25

So you went still at this point, are you thinking academic route, professor route? Okay, so that so how was your what was your experience at Luther? Who were you working with there? And and how's the sense of vocation being formed in that time?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yeah, it was a great experience. Um I I had great professors there. This would have been uh 90, nope, 2001 to 2003 at Luther Seminary. Um and Luther had a partnership with Bethel U Bethel University now. It was Bethel, Bethel Seminary, yeah, in in the Twin Cities there.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

And so I I collaborated a little bit because I made so I uh I don't know if you know Janine Brown. Sure, yeah. Yeah, I was on the faculty at Bethel with her for Oh yeah. Okay so she so she was one she was one of the readers for my master's thesis. Okay. I wrote on the Gospel of Matthew.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And and so I gotten to know her, and that was helpful. Um, and then there's a professor named Mary Hinkle. Uh now her name's Mary Shore, because she got married, but Mary Hinkle uh was hugely instrumental in my formation just as in terms of understanding what exegesis is and reading scripture well and and uh all of those dynamics of writing, you know, writing a good uh research paper and all that stuff. So Mary and Janine were really important, and then Craig Kester, uh still on faculty at Luther, was another huge influence in me. And his specialty is in John and stuff, but but yet he's such a brilliant, uh compassionate, helpful individual and scholar that like I spent as much time in their offices as I could when I was there. But it was a great experience. I learned so much, but also felt a greater sense of like, oh yeah, this is what I'm made to do. I loved it. And I was affirmed in it in a lot of ways. So it was a really great environment. And then that launched me to Loyola University in Chicago for a doctorate in New Testament and early Christian origins. And Loyola was uh we wanted to stay in the Midwest. We didn't want to leave family too far. Like I had I was gonna go maybe study with Dale Allison. Um, at that time he was at Pittsburgh, now he's at Princeton, but but when I applied, it was at Pittsburgh. But we we just wanted to stay within driving range, and so like I looked at Wheaton. I think it was when I was going for a PhD, this would have been fall of 2004, I would have entered the PhD program. And I think Wheaton was just starting their PhD program.

Joel Lawrence 26:05

Oh no, yeah, it was right, yeah, early days there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I didn't know enough. And and to be honest, like Wheaton, uh I looked at Denver Seminary too, and like so this is like a I don't know, I don't know if people listening to CPT podcasts will like this or not, but like uh but like Wheaton and Denver were like they were too Christian for me, and and so I didn't want to go there. Yeah, but I but I really liked Loyola. Uh I I found there's a a warmth and a collegiality there that that I really appreciated. And I think maybe that comes from my faith church experience growing up. Like I didn't want to go to a PhD environment where it's like competitive and like every man for themselves trying to be smarter than the other person. That just didn't appeal to me. I wanted to be in a place where it felt uh you know warm and nurturing and and family. And I felt that at Loyoland. So I had a great, great experience there.

Zach Wagner 27:04

Yeah, I want to hear a little bit more about what made that experience so uh meaningful to you. But I think you're describing, I do want to pause a little bit on this because I think you're describing a tension that a lot of people will feel if they're considering a PhD program or they're in a master's and thinking about this. Yeah. Mainly on the difference between kind of an evangelical or a seminary-based PhD.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah.

unknown 27:29

Yeah.

Zach Wagner 27:29

And then there's the kind of what I'm hearing on the other side of the spectrum, a very competitive kind of university research, kind of like top-tier PhD program, yeah, which can have all sorts of good, but also malformational pressures as part of it. And the faith environment can be difficult or even hostile, depending on where you're at. And we've had folks on the podcast who have talked about those types of experiences. You you use the word collegiality and warmth to describe your experience at Loyola. Um, I'd love to hear more about that. And then I'm trying to make this serve the listeners because I think this is exactly like I know there's folks listening that they just kind of perked up hearing you kind of compare and contrast PhD programs. So maybe I'll just ask you to say a little bit more about it at every stage in what I walk through. So the so unpack what you mean by too Christian first on the kind of evangelical or seminary PhD route. I think I know what you mean, but I want to hear a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah, yeah. Um, for me, my the experience was, and again, this is part like my personality, and and not this is very subjective, of course. This is not at all an objective statement, but yeah, but I think part of it my personality was like, and I I got I guess I gotta be careful because I don't want to like disparage these other. I think these Wheaton and Denver Seminary are great programs, and like I may go, I may go to them if if I had to do it again, I might pick one of them. Um but at that stage in my life and how I was and uh my faith and stuff, well I'll tell the story and then we can cut it out if you want to. So we went to Denver and I wanted to study under Craig Blomberg. And um and I still I think I I have the highest respect for him and his scholarship, and and I think now having a better grown-up perspective on things, I would see things differently. But then like we went to Wheaton and and uh I mean, we went to Denver and and like the admissions gal like sat down and like prayed, prayed with us and stuff, and I'm like, this feels really forced and weird. I don't know if you you know what I'm saying? Like and my wife and I were like, yeah, we just want to uh yeah, I don't know. And so like that kind of stuff for me like just raises weird uh responses to me, and I'm like, yeah, I don't I don't know if I want to I don't know if I want to be around that. Like where you where you gotta sit down and pray with someone every time you sit with them and meet with them, or you know, or something. That just wasn't my my Christianity expression. Yeah, and so and and so I so that was part of the thing, that kind of thing, I guess. And that happened at Wheaton too.

Zach Wagner 30:25

It's unique for you as well, coming from a Lutheran background, yeah, and then having this really rich, and it sounds like kind of biblical scholarship informed undergraduate education.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Oh, for sure.

Zach Wagner 30:38

And by biblical scholarship, I mean like research, biblical scholarship, Jesus seminar adjacent type historical Jesus. Like that's not happening in Bible college of kind of low church evangelicalism unless you're dunking on it. Yeah. So these are different cultures, and there's many people of very sincere faith in both worlds, but I think you're describing a cultural difference from where you were coming from in these in these programs.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Exactly. And like I said, like if I were to do it again, I wouldn't see things the same way. But I recall then having this experience where I'm like, yeah, this isn't the kind of vibe I want to be around for like six years, you know.

Joel Lawrence 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And it wasn't like I thought they were bad Christians or something, it was just the the kind of thing that like I didn't identify with in a way that um, yeah. So but then the other thing though, and and I mean a lot of that what I just said is you know very subjective and almost tongue-in-cheek, too, like whatever. But but the other thing was I I did want to have the freedom to like uh wrestle with scripture honestly and not have to come out the other side affirming a certain doctrinal uh uh position on stuff. It's like the idea, and like at Wartburg College, you know, both of my professors were pastors too, and and they were very pastoral and and very personal, and like my faith grew in addition to like this more academic understanding of scripture. I think they merged those really well together at Wartburg, and I wanted that also wherever I went, but I didn't want it to be uh in a certain box, and I didn't want it to be forced. And so and I found at Loyola like I found that uh that happy medium where like all of my professors were devout Jesuits. Yeah, yes. They're not messing around with faith, you know. But it's a different kind of piety um than evangelicalism for sure. And and I really appreciated that. But I also appreciated uh the the um uh secretary of the department at that time was a gal named Catherine Wolfe. And like my first day there, first visit there, never met her before except through email, and she like treated me uh as if I I were her grandson, like the minute I walked in. Like a hug, uh, she was a smoker, and like like it fit my family growing up in some ways. I'm like, oh, you're familiar. And like it was, and so part of the part of the draw to to Loyola was like that kind of thing. Yeah. And I drew, I know I jumped to conclusions. I'm like, okay, if if you're the person who's the secretary of the theology department here at Loyola, that that says something about the nature of the department as a whole to me.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And what's going on here. And so I kind of like followed that a little bit, and I discovered, yeah, I mean, all of all of the faculty, with you know, typical exceptions, but they were all genuinely for each other and they got along together and they were supportive, and that and that trickled out into the student body too, where um, and and again, this is my experience. I'm I didn't go, you know, I didn't even visit Duke, you know, or or Emery or something. So I don't even know how it would be different from those places.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

But what hit me about Loyola was just that warmth and that environment, but yet also a real seriousness academically, too.

Joel Lawrence 34:26

Like so let's let's uh um kind of move forward now into your your your journey into the pastoral ministry. Because up till now you you kind of stiff armed the pastorate uh when it was suggested to you, you've you're you're pursuing this academic track. Yeah, at what point do you really sense, oh no, I I'm called to be a pastor, this is my vocation?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah. Um well as of this morning, I'm not sure still. Fair enough. Fair enough. No, but like um it happened as I think in a round in a in a slow, it was a slow burn, you know, slow process of um after I after I'd finished my my doctorate, so I uh doctorate PhD in uh New Testament and Early Christian origins. Um I I wrote a dissertation, I focused on on Romans and reading Romans in in conversation with the ethical discourses of the first century world and loved all that stuff, and then continued to just like be driven to learn more in that way and started seeking job opportunities. And so I started teaching right away. I started at Luther Seminary, um, and then that moved, and then I went to Wartburg College and taught there for a while, and all of it was just nothing was like stable and secure. And and I found out like who you know gets you a job more than like your resume does, yeah, which is frustrating to me and disappointing. But and I'm not that great of a salesperson for myself, so I I couldn't never I could never like make the good sales pitch that someone should hire me. And so I was bouncing around doing a lot of adjunct stuff, and it I I loved it, and it was life-giving, but it wasn't sustainable for our family. And again, we didn't want to go far, so I didn't want to like pursue opportunities in like California or Texas or whatever, because that's just not what we wanted for our family, and so um kind of bounced around trying to trying to find where I landed and where I could put to use all this schooling that I had. Uh, and that led to a variety of things at different different positions in different places, in addition to Luther Seminary in Wartwood College. I was at Grandview University in Des Moines doing a leadership program and teaching on the side and stuff like that. But at some point, uh it was kind of like this is probably not gonna work. It's not looking like it's gonna work for to raise a family of four kids. So what do I do? I guess I have to be a pastor. So it was kind of this reluctant, like, I guess there's nothing else. There's no there are no other doors that will that will sustain our family. Uh this is this seems to be the only best door. And so uh that was um when was that 2012, 13, something like that? Um and so ever since then I've been kind of swimming in the pastoral world since then, and found actually that I enjoy it. And there it brings out it brings out uh uh giftings and things about me that I didn't know I had. Yeah but it also it also back to my conversation with my uh old testament professor, like it kind of brings full circle the observation that I made to him when I was a freshman that he already knew that was new to me, that like more people in the church need to grow theologically and the Bible better. Yeah, and so now I'm in a position to do that.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Uh and and so that's like, oh, that's okay.

Joel Lawrence 38:27

So you were you were pastoring in in southern Iowa for a for a period of time. Yep, and now you're in northern Iowa, and you know there was some uh part of your personal journey that that is a part of that story. Can you kind of take us into that and also how that has shaped your vision of the pastorate?

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah. Um yeah, so I was I had been a pastor for seven years in a rural community in southwest Iowa. Um the town's called Adair. Were you were you solo pastor? Yeah, yep. Small, small town, rural community, 600 people, six, maybe 700 people on a good day, um, between Des Moines and Omaha. Um and and uh came just like went into that like no understanding of rural Iowa life uh or how to be a pastor in that context, and over time grew to to like genuinely love it and like recognize it for what it is and and not have to try and make it like some urban church or suburban church, but let it be what it is and learn how to be a pastor in that environment. I think I learned to be a pastor there. I'd been a pastor for several years before then in southern Minnesota, Albert Lee, Minnesota. Yeah, yeah, and that was a larger church, uh bigger, bigger town of 30,000 or something, 20,000, 30,000. So so this was a completely different environment. And I was on my own, yeah, solo pastor, and did that for seven years and loved it and grew to love it. And uh and that that really shaped for me that I mean that's a whole nother conversation, but that shaped for me uh how to preach, how to be a pastor, um, how to how to help people understand the life of faith in a way that's just really down to earth and everyday kind of stuff. I mean, and it and a good part of it too was I mean, Eugene Peterson has been a huge influence on how I understand pastoral ministry. And so his take on ministry like fit my context like a glove. Like it's slow, it's personal, it's uh a lot of times you don't know what you're doing, you know, and but but your job is to point out point out point out to people where God is, yeah, and and follow that, you know. So I did that and and uh started in 2018, uh moved up to where we are now in Clear Lake, Iowa, just this past uh July, so 2025. And uh in 2022, our oldest daughter was a senior in high school there and had a car accident on the way to high school, uh which resulted in a traumatic brain injury for her. And there's a whole lot to that story itself, but like there were there were six weeks where like uh she was in a coma and we didn't know if she was gonna wake up. And we didn't know early on, the first three or four weeks, we didn't even know what day uh if we went to the hospital any given morning to her room in the CCU, like uh is she gonna be alive or not? Like we didn't know. And that that uh affected us deeply, our faith, how I how I thought about being a pastor, everything. And she survived and she and she's living with us now, and she's made a miraculous recovery considering the nature of her injury. But um her injury is such that like this is a lifelong thing, and it's not gonna go away. And she'll continue to grow and improve and and hopefully make advances in her recovery, but the brain injury world is such a shadow world of the medical world we live in that it's just a nightmare for families going through it because there's the majority of things are just not covered by insurance. Wow. And but yet there's so much that that is helpful that's out there to help patients and their families. And it was getting to a point for us, uh, so this was December 2022, her accident. You know, by uh spring of 2025, we're kind of like, something's gotta change uh because we're not gonna be able to like financially make this work any longer. Our son is gonna go to college in a couple years, and that's so um, and I think for the for the sake of our daughter, living in where we lived in Adair, Iowa was was wonderful and beautiful, but for Jaya, she needed to be closer to an environment where she she could have easier access to things that would give her life. Yeah. And living in rural Iowa is good if you're a farmer and that's your life. But if you have a a daughter who's had a brain injury who needs you know, for whom it's good to like be able to easily get to a coffee shop or something like that, to be around people and to get out and do stuff relatively independently, that's not the place to be.

Joel Lawrence 43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

And so um, so my wife and I, you Know, we went on a journey of figuring out well, what's going to work for us. And we knew that we needed uh some sort of dynamic that allowed flexibility because we're still taking our places. We still go to Mayo Clinic in Rochester frequently, we still go to Des Moines frequently. So we needed a situation where we both had flexibility to tend to the needs of our daughter, but then also decent income. Um, but then ideally, you know, just uh jobs that would that would give us life and not drain life, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

For me, that's probably either I find a job teaching somewhere or uh in a church somewhere. And same thing for my wife. Uh she's a she's an educator by by schooling. Uh she has taught uh early childhood and elementary for a long time. Um but she's also done children's ministry in in a church in the Twin Cities when we lived there. So um so we found this spot here here in Clear Lake where they had a position for children's ministry director, and they had kind of this vague open position for discipleship or something like that. And I'm like, if you let me shape that position, then we we can do this. So that's how we got to where we are. It's kind of a life circumstance, yeah. Something's gotta change sort of thing, and and so that's where we're at. We're still adjusting to that right now.

Zach Wagner 45:22

Yeah, yeah. Kyle, I really appreciate your openness and um just even forthrightness and kind of sharing about the dynamics that have led you to the position where you're serving. Because I think we all can have a sense that, you know, family considerations and what my spouse needs and my children need. And of course, that needs to be of great priority and thinking about vocation and the jobs you apply for, the place that you're serving. But you had this kind of intense experience in your family that made like you couldn't hide from that. That just became very real and concrete in a way that perhaps it should be for all of us. And I think that's instructive again for folks kind of in this pastor theologian world, um, where there can be this ambition and this aspiration, and what program, as we've already talked about, what program do I apply for? Yeah, where do I study? Where do I serve? Do I do academic? Do I do a pastoral? Do I uproot my family again? And these are very important questions to consider. I just love the way your story, for me personally, I'll say, as I, as I'm kind of in a in a season and entering a season, discerning kind of vocational uh questions for myself. Man, um fulfilling the obligations you have to the people right in front of you, namely your your spouse and your kids, that needs to that needs to take some priority, obviously. And in a in a sense, it's a it's a grace in your story that that was that had such an immediacy. And I hear you balancing that with we'll gotta do something. And if the Lord's providing uh something that uses my gifts and a uh place where I can serve and be of help and the pieces fit together for my family such that uh that works, then that's what the Lord has uh for this time at least. Yeah. Joel, did you have anything by way of follow-up or Kyle?

Joel Lawrence 47:38

I I just asked Kyle, kind of as we as we wrap up the conversation in sharing this, how has your vision of your pastoral ministry then shifted in in this season and in your new role? Uh, you know, you're you're an associate pastor now on a staff, not a solo lead pastor. What's your vision of the pastorate and your vision of the pastor theologian really been playing out in this journey?

SPEAKER_00 48:04

That's a good question. I don't know because like it's a real transition now. Going from a senior solo pastor to being a discipleship pastor on a staff is to be honest, I mean, that's been a real challenge. Like it's a real challenge for me. My daughter's accident formed me in a di in one way uh as a pastor. Where like, you know, we we we were face to face with like uh this realization of the fragility of life and the importance of for me it it came down to like the importance of being a present uh father to my kids. And like all of a sudden, like ministry and like achieving some sort of ideals or whatever, like all of a sudden became we're we're were shown to be like the the the wasteful chasing that it was for me. Um where I was like, what am I doing? Um it's not like ministry didn't wasn't important anymore, but like how I thought of it was what really shifted to to something very personal, and I didn't feel like I had to prove also I didn't feel like I had to prove anything to my congregation anymore.

Joel Lawrence 49:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Like where I I think before then, some of my sermons, you know, I'd want to, you know, flex a little bit, you know, like say, you know, the Greek word here means this, you know, or whatever that stuff. And and that changed really fast, where I was like, oh no, this is about being vulnerable. Yeah and being vulnerable and and and walking with people uh in the steps of Jesus in a way that is is transformative, yeah. That's transformative beyond just like sharing the information that that you know or or whatever, you know. Yeah. So that that really shifted my and I still wrestle with that. Like I still got books and I still got things, and I still wish I could be like writing research papers. Well, I still could, I suppose, if I wanted to, but writing research papers, you know, or or you know, teaching, I I still teach, but like, but all of that's kind of like shifted in importance. Um, and that's a I think that's an ongoing thing for me. That's an ongoing learning curve. And I think that's still happening here. Yeah so now I'm not the lead so senior pastor, I'm on staff, and I've got a lane that I'm in, and there's a lot of decisions I'm not making that I'm used to making. And but there's a lot of lives of people who who uh you know take that take take me back to like my college freshman year where that like want to know and understand uh who Jesus is more deeply.

Joel Lawrence 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

People want that. And and that's that's where I gotta shoot.

Joel Lawrence 50:59

I think it's a great, it's a great reminder that you know, um, a calling isn't just a calling. Like you get once, and then that's what it is, and that's your vocation for the rest of your life, that our vocation shifts and changes over time. You know, even if we stay in the pastorate the whole time, yeah, though there are iterations of that, and there are seasons of that. And I just appreciate you telling us your story and kind of illustrating that and the way that that's been playing out in in your life and being being open with us, even in the kind of uncertainty of now, right? The the you're you're in the you're in a moment of of of reconstruction and to kind of hear that live time is encouraging. And I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who can really relate to that. So, Kyle, we appreciate you coming on the podcast and and sharing your story with us. We're we're grateful for you and your partnership with CPT.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Thanks. Appreciate being here. Thanks for the conversation, you guys.

Zach Wagner 52:01

Thank you. Thanks, Kyle. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Precorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.