BONUS | Kyle Fever on Books and Preaching

A bonus conversation with CPT fellow Kyle Fever on life, preaching, books, and music.

Join us at the CPT Conference

Transcript

Zach Wagner 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And back with us for a bonus segment, as we have been doing of late, is CPT fellow Kyle Fever. Hello, Kyle.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hello. Good to good to talk with you guys.

Zach Wagner 0:21

Yeah, good to have you back, as it were. Three minutes or so after we finished recording the last episode, but here we are. Joel, over to you. Let's uh remind folks what we're doing with these bonus segment episodes.

Joel Lawrence 0:38

Yeah. So uh over the last few weeks, we've been uh recording these bonus episodes where we invited CPT fellow to talk about a resource that has been helpful for them, formative for them in their preaching. When I asked uh Kyle before hit record if he was ready, he had a stack of books. So he's definitely ready. So uh Kyle, why don't you walk us through um what are some resources that have been helpful for you that you would recommend to listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, well, as uh the prompt was shared with me because you said, you know, resources that are been helpful for your ministry, but then especially your preaching. And in my mind, I went to like books about preaching. And then as as you were just saying it, something shifted where I'm like, it no, it doesn't have to be books about preaching. Uh which so for me, uh there's like an idiot moment in my head where I'm like, oh no. Get the question, will you? So so so my books are okay now because they're not about preaching. But yeah, uh there are several books that like have been really informative that and I think they shaped my ministry and my preaching because they've they've um I think um given me language and framework, but then also affirmed for me um sort of my uh natural uh bent, I guess, uh in terms of uh thinking about the Christian life. Okay. Um and right out of the gate, uh two two books that have been really, really important to me um recently. You know, I'll say, I'll say uh a a really really important one has been um Bonhoeffer's life together. Like I can't tell you how many times I've read that book, and and he's doing something there that for me is like a vision of what I what I wish the church would be.

Joel Lawrence 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

And I think that was Bonhoeffer's point, uh, to to try this out in a congregation, and he never got a chance to do it. But but but but the idea what what he communicates in life together, I think, communicates this uh attempt at creating a community that's genuinely life together in a way that that is immersed in uh a practical togetherness for one another, but then also immersed in a life of of worship and and prayer and and almost you know monastic but in real life kind of thing. And yeah. And so that's that's always been influential to me, and it's always my dream to like figure out how to do that. And and I find like the American church is imbibing on our cultural Kool-Aid makes that very difficult.

Joel Lawrence 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah. So that's one thing. But but then beyond that, um I found the last um oh when was this published? 2019. So it more recently than I thought. But James K. A. Smith's on the road with St. Augustine.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Hugely I I read that and I couldn't I couldn't put it down, and then I just keep reading it. Um because A, it like dips into my world. So my doctorates New Testament early Christian origin. So I spent a lot of time with early church fathers up to the eighth century or so. And so it and I was never an Augustine fan totally. Uh I liked more of the no-name, like Didymus the Blind and some other dudes like that, which I don't know anything about. I like them. But but but Smith's book really opened opened my eyes to um how uh Augustine understood the nature of the life of faith in a way that's very practical and appeals to all of us in the sense that we're all on the journey home. Yeah, and it's God who will get us there.

Joel Lawrence 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

But yet the journey is not easy, it's never clear, uh, but we're called to follow. And um, and so his book on the road with St. Augustine helped really help me just really think through and and and make sense of things, some things in my own life, but then also how I communicate to people when I'm preaching, or just small group leadership or or funerals or whatever. Something about how he what he does in that book helps shape things for me. And and it's really I've really enjoyed it, really, really like it.

Joel Lawrence 5:29

There's a a theme there between those two figures. Um, you know, this this we're on a journey home, and you know, Bonhopper's all about the present Christ and following after the present Christ. And Augustine, it's gonna be a windy journey and it's not an easy journey, and it's lived in kind of the dirt and the grime of life, but but that's where Jesus is, right? Right. And that's where we follow him. And so just as you were, you know, pairing those two, that kind there's just a grittiness to both of them and this kind of concrete nature of discipleship that I think is is is really important and and and might be one of the things we can struggle with at times in a pastor theologian vision of its ideas and it's but no, actually, these are two pastor theologians who lived it out in the in in the the nitty-gritty, the dirty of life.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah.

Zach Wagner 6:29

I I'll I'll add to this is completely out of left field, but these are just the phrases that are bouncing around in my brain right now is the music of Rich Mullens. Yes. Um, and this this longing for home is so threaded all the way through his music. Um, if I weep, let me weep as a man who is longing for his home.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yeah. And such a good line. Yeah.

Zach Wagner 6:55

And the uh uh a song that's actually come online to me more recently by Mullins is The Howling, um, which is a song about the Holy Spirit and uh the leading of the Holy Spirit. And when you were describing the the Jamie Smith book, it made me think exactly of this. I uh let's see if I can produce it. But it's the the chorus of that is I can feel the wild wind howling. And he's picking up this idea of the spirit as the wind, as the breath in the New Testament, and then it's wild. Yeah. Um and this idea that you it's gonna lead you where it's gonna lead you, and you can't control it. Yeah. Um, and then but then the the chorus, the refrain ends with, and the howling is gonna lead me home.

Joel Lawrence 7:43

Yeah. Um, and man, I can just hear the dulcimers.

Zach Wagner 7:47

Yeah, I get it I can get I get chills all through my whole body thinking about that because there's a there's a wildness and a grittiness to the life of discipleship um in Mullins' music. And and I think in the in the early fathers, certainly in the desert fathers, all of these sorts of yeah, uh it's a rich part of the Christian tradition um that uh we can tap into. So I just find that so resonant, not just for the kind of like vocational discerning of how do you do pastoral ministry and how do you disciple other folks, but how do you experience discipleship as as and uh Bonhoeffer is great for that as well. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

You you seem to perk up when I mentioned Mullins, so maybe react to that a little bit, Kyle, and we can't so like in the previous podcast, you know, I talked about like my music, rock and roll, heavy metals, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The the the one the one break from that is Rich Mullins. Like his his catalog, uh um The World is Best as I Remember It, Volumes 1 and 2. It's the best. Like I listened to those cassettes endlessly in my junior and senior year of high of high school. Just on repeat. And so like you mentioned the howling. I'm like, that song's playing in my head, you know. Or I I so appreciate that you mentioned that, Zachary, because like I guess his music wouldn't count as a book, but like if if it did, that would be certainly a poet. Yeah, it's a resource. Right, yeah.

Zach Wagner 9:17

That's a that would be a resource. We're using that broad category of resource. The the resource has a buzzword, but yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

I would say his uh if anything, it over the longevity of of my life, his music has informed my spirituality more than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Like just so I still listen to him on it on the daily on a daily basis.

Joel Lawrence 9:40

And I think it's also it it really does connect into preaching because so much of preaching is shaping the soul to to long for that which we desire, right? This very Augustan theme of we are created to to love God and and we're not satisfied until then in preaching. Yeah. It's not just about didactic information, it's about forming souls towards that which we are created to to worship, the one that we're created to to long for. So I think these themes all really beautifully come together.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

So true.

Joel Lawrence 10:14

Yeah.

Zach Wagner 10:15

At a recent CPT event, I can't remember this. I don't think this was the one you were at with us recently, Kyle, but someone shared a paper about preaching to the affections. Um and particularly in these conversations that we've been having about preaching, what you just said, Joel, like preaching not merely as didactic, but as like heart formation and target the heart in your preaching and shape the heart towards what we ought to desire and the reordering, again, to use another Augustinian concept, the reordering of our affections towards the world as it's going to be. Um, lots of really rich stuff. I'll I'll hand it back to you, Kyle. Any any last words, or do you you think we just gonna want to leave it there and call it?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I it's hard for me to leave it there and call it because now we we brought Rich Mullins into the conversation. Uh let's just keep going. Let's just keep going. Yeah. I think I think that's such a powerful uh these themes we've been talking about, I think are such important things for I'm gonna be very general, but like everyday evangelical Christians in our world today that um I think they're yearning for this grittiness of faith, but uh it's a it's a struggle to and like I said, I mean my critiques I have a lot of critiques of the modern church just because I don't know why. But uh but I think but I think it's an uphill battle though, yeah like the way things have been become performative in some ways in churches. Does that make sense?

Joel Lawrence 11:53

It does, yeah. And not not left not left space for mystery and longing and grittiness, and it's kind of all pretty septic and yeah, can be pretty cleaned up.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think somehow we gotta break break through that to and I think people want that. They just don't know how maybe don't know how to get there or they're not being offered the pathway. I don't know.

Joel Lawrence 12:19

Well, thanks, Kyle. This has been this has been fun. Uh a little bonus conversation. I mean Bonhoeffer, Augustine, Rich Mullins. That's that's a good that's a good trio right there. We have Petra B here.

Zach Wagner 12:31

We got an we got a nice dose of Gen X in here, guys. This is good.

Joel Lawrence 12:34

We did. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. All right, thanks, Kyle. Appreciate you, man. Blessings.

Zach Wagner 12:40

Yep. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Precorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.