Deathly (De)Vices | Dillon Thornton

In this episode of the CPT Podcast, we are joined by CPT Fellow pastor Dillon Thornton to discuss his new book, Deathly (De)Vices: Our Ever-Present Portals to Seven Ancient Sins. Drawing from pastoral ministry, personal experience, and the Christian tradition of the seven deadly sins, Thornton explores how smartphones, social media, and emerging technologies subtly deform our hearts and habits. The conversation ranges from envy and vainglory in online life to the spiritual dangers and promises of AI, offering thoughtful reflection on what technology is doing to our humanity, our churches, and our formation as followers of Christ.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

It's not as simple as dropping a gadget into an ethics machine and then waiting for it to come out the other side stamped as either virtuous or sinful. In reality, the inherent sinfulness or virtue associated with a given technology is often vague until a person wields that tool with intent.

Zach Wagner 0:33

Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. We just finished a conversation with Dylan Thornton, who is a CPT fellow, longtime CPT fellow who's been Senior Fellow of the Center for Pastor Theologians. We got to start dropping that nomenclature. That's right. Yeah. You know, give uh give honor to whom honors do. Um but yeah, Dylan's been around uh the CPT for a while, he's been really engaged uh over the years at various levels, and um, he's participated in a couple of our learning cohorts with folks on different topics as well. And it's just been uh great to have him as a friend and partner in ministry. And we're talking to him today about a new book that he has out recently released called Deathly Devices. Joel, help me out with the subtitle.

Joel Lawrence 1:21

It's uh our ever-present portals to seven ancient sins.

Zach Wagner 1:27

So if you couldn't gather from that, it this is a book about our smart devices and technology and the way they uh cultivate or maybe better malform us towards uh vices and sin, uh, with particular reference to the seven deadly sins. So uh really enjoyable conversation, fascinating book. Dylan was uh kind enough to send me an advanced copy a number of months ago uh and ask me if I would be willing to write an endorsement, which I was very happy to do. I think this is a great resource for uh pastors, but also to put in the hands of folks in your congregations to think more intentionally about the way technology is is forming them and malforming them, uh, which is of course uh the goal of what Dylan was trying to do. What stood out to you in this conversation or or about the book, Joel?

Joel Lawrence 2:20

Yeah, I I I think uh just there's a lot of wisdom here. And and you know, there's a lot being written on technology and um and I think some very, very good stuff being written on technology. I think there's a pastoral wisdom about this book. It it grew out of, as he talks about, a sermon series that grew out of a concern that he had for what devices were doing to his congregation that that then uh also prompted him to to take a sabbatical from Devices, which is now a couple years in the running. And and so I think I think there's more than just a sociological view of technology. There's a real pastoral sense behind all of this, and I just really value that and appreciate that.

Zach Wagner 3:08

Yeah, I agree. And this is yeah, there's so much, like you say, good stuff being written, you know, theoretical, kind of highfalutin intellectual or popular academic, whatever you want to say. But this is, like you say, a really pastoral approach. And um, you know, it's not overly long. Like it's a it's a fairly accessible and easy to read book, but yeah, uh not lacking in wisdom and insight for that accessibility. So this is, I think, just one of the issues uh of our day that we need to keep talking about, keep thinking about, and really glad to be able to share this conversation with folks. And I'm I'm confident that you, dear listener, will find it helpful as you're processing these things. So we'll get right to the conversation with Dylan Thornton now.

Joel Lawrence 4:03

Dylan, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on. Good to be here with you guys. Thanks for the invite. Yeah, absolutely. So uh we had Dylan on a couple years ago for our becoming a pastor theologian podcast. So if you want to hear all about Dylan and his journey, you can go back and listen to that one. Um, what we're doing today is having a conversation with Dylan on his book, uh Deathly Devices, our ever-present portal to seven ancient sins. So looking forward to that conversation, uh, Dylan, as we dive in to the book. Before we do that, give us uh just a couple minute overview of who you are, where you are, uh, what your what your calling is these days.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Sure, yeah, happy to do so. Um Dylan Thornton. I've been uh a fellow of the Center for Pastor Theologians for I guess about a decade now.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Maybe a little bit longer than that. Very, very happy to be a part of such a wonderful ministry. Uh, I have been in the Tampa Bay area since 2017 as the lead pastor of Faith Community Church and Schools. Uh, was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, went to Beaston Divinity School, did my MDiv there, and then overseas uh working on a PhD at the University of Otago in New Zealand, uh, studied under Paul Tribulco. So all of that was before our time in Tampa Bay, but have been here since 2017, love what we're doing here, uh blessed to be a part of the church family, and uh the Lord is at work in our midst. We're grateful for that.

Joel Lawrence 5:34

It's great. It's great. So good to hear, and and we are very grateful for the work you're doing and uh our partnership with you through through the CPT. So uh you've written this book, Deathly Devices, and uh whenever we have these book conversations, it's always fun to kind of hear the backstory of the book, right? Books emerge from lots of different inputs in our lives and outputs in our lives. Uh, you you tell a bit of the backstory at the beginning where you uh kind of went cold turkey off of social media. So talk to us a little bit about that experiment. And then was the book in your mind in doing that, or did that prompt the book? Take us through the process there.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Uh, I have to remember which came first. Um, you know, I think they probably happened around the same time. And and I have been off of social for a couple of years now. I'm I'm not necessarily saying that I'll never go back, but I just haven't sensed the need to go back yet. Um, it most of my writing grows out of either a question I have that I'd like to think more deeply about, or a specific need that I see in our own congregation. And I suppose definitely devices was a bit of both. I saw how my uh my own family and the various stages of life represented in our church family all were moving in and out of this social media ecosystem really without thinking much about what this way of life is doing to us as followers of Christ. And so I set out to explore the question what does untempered attachment to our devices do to us? How does it deform or misshape us? Um, and this exploration began really as a sermon series that I did at Fate Church in 2023, I think it was. And the series was um so well received by our church family that I decided to work on the content a little more, beef up the footnotes, tidy up the writing, and publish it with the hope that the wider Christian community might uh might benefit from it.

Zach Wagner 7:37

Is it did you do the sermon series in the same structure as the book, where there was uh there was a message on each of the seven deadly sins? I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

I followed the same structure in the book. It's just uh the the thinking is more developed in in the book uh than than the sermon series was. I I did the sermon series, then I took maybe another year or so and and kind of continued to think about these these subjects, and like I said, beefed up the footnotes, did a little more research on the subjects, and just uh tried to tidy up the writing and make it when I write my sermons, I'm writing uh for the ear, right? I'm writing for the post out there who's listening. So it was just a bit of a different sort of writing as I took it and put it in book form.

Zach Wagner 8:19

Yeah, I I love and am also intrigued by the fact that this originated as a sermon series, and it's it's very much not in the kind of like preaching through a book of the Bible, uh verse by verse, or even the lectionary, depending on your tr tradition. You know, it's very topical, but I imagine very immediate and pressing and relevant to so many folks today. There was a time where the use of devices and technology was kind of a generationally distinct thing that mostly millennials did, and now everybody does it, you know, all the way up to boomers and down to Gen Alpha or whatever they're called. So I just imagine this touched everybody where they were at, and I'm not surprised to hear it was well received. I'd be curious, before we kind of get moving into the book itself, give a brief apologetic for someone who thinks that maybe this isn't the type of thing to do a sermon series on, that you should only be preaching through books of the Bible, or you should only be working out of a biblical text, or even someone who would hesitate and be like, well, the seven deadly sins aren't articulated in scripture as such. That's kind of something from the Christian tradition. What are you doing in preaching on that? What would you say to those objections?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah, I I would say the the large majority of my preaching is through a book of the Bible, uh, you know, expositional preaching straight through a biblical book. But at times I will do a more doctrinal or topical series that always uh always is still exposition of scripture, of course. Sure. Uh just in a slightly different way. So in this series, when I focused on whatever vice it was for that week, I would pick a passage of scripture that deals with that particular vice, and we and we simply went through that passage of scripture as if I were preaching through that whole book of the Bible. Uh and I think there's a time and a place for that. I think um these are subjects that people in our congregations are dealing with, and uh maybe they're thinking about them, but maybe we'd like for them to be thinking about them a bit more. And I think we as the pastor theologians need to help them connect the dots. We need to help them understand, for example, what our devices are doing to us, uh, how they are shaping us. And so um, if I can do that in the preaching moment, I I think that's a a wonderful place to situate that. I think we should also be getting at these issues in other ways in other settings within our uh within our churches. But uh, I'm certainly not opposed to doing it in the Sunday morning corporate worship time, and I think there are um many reasons that we ought to do that.

Joel Lawrence 10:54

Sure. So uh I I love the the structure of the seven deadly sins and want to want to get into that and your thinking around how you know how that came into your mind. And before we do that though, um would would you take us a little bit into your experience of going off of social media? Because in the book, it you kind of set it out as you were you were wondering what it would do to you to to go off of social media, both positively and negatively. Walk us through a bit of that that kind of spiritual formation experiment that you did and and what you learned, not just as a product of the book, but what you learned about yourself, what you learned about your own life with God, life with your family, life with your church.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

You know, I I I had some fears when I first went off of social media. I have to confess that. Um I feared, will I uh will I lose kind of some pastoral touch points with my congregation? Because the large majority of my congregation was on social media, still is, and so I'm not going to be interacting with them in that way throughout the week. Uh I had other fears, you know, will I kind of lose track of what's happening in the world? Will I have enough information about current events? Uh I wondered if I would ever publish another book. I mean, you know, I I won't I'll be losing my platform. That's the language we often use in publishing circles, right? And so all of those fears were were present and were real. But still I was uh I was intrigued to see what what will I notice about myself. I yeah, I I didn't I didn't go into this thinking I'll just you know never be back on social or that I will I'll be away from it for a year. I didn't really have a time frame. I just wanted to see what I would notice in myself. And um almost immediately I noticed how um I don't know if addicted is the right word, but I would find myself sitting down for lunch and and you know, just reaching for my phone as if I was going to go scroll on social because that's what I was accustomed to doing. And I would just remember, oh no, wait, I'm not on social anymore. And just put the phone back down and do something else. So I had these these rhythms and these habits that were coming within me that I don't even know that I had ever seen until I suddenly took it away. Um and I just began to notice other things. I was more present with my family. I was thinking more about issues on the local level that I can actually do something about that are right here in my immediate community. Uh, you know, so I was more present with the people that are most important to me. Um, I was thinking more about issues that I really can help with. So I saw a lot of good things uh come out of that experiment. So it was for me, it was a formative and a helpful and um an illuminating experience.

Joel Lawrence 13:36

Yeah, it's a it's a courageous act these days to do something like that. Something I haven't quite had the courage myself to do, but but reading back through your book was I was I was feeling some some prompts of my conscience around.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

And I don't I don't I don't think you know I don't go so far in the book as to say that everyone ought to do this. Sure. Certainly not certainly not permanently. There might be some advantages in uh a congregation doing uh a tech fast. I know many churches have done that perhaps during the season of Lent. I think there is some there are some upsides to that, but uh you know I I don't want to be overly prescriptive and and say, you know, everyone ought to get off social media right now. I that that's not the I don't think that's the solution.

Joel Lawrence 14:14

Yeah. But I think what it does, and even just reading through your book, it it once again prompted me to be more aware of of the impulse that is that is there, right? And to ask what is going on there, what's what is the formative process that is that is producing this this impulse. And I I think just that that ability to even understand what's happening internally is such an important part of the uh of the process here. So okay, so um seven deadly sins as the framing for the our our engagement with devices. Um the the subtitle is our ever-present portals to seven ancient sins. Now you're not like uh, as you've said, no one should ever be in technology, no one should ever be on on social media, but but you you certainly do have a a pretty developed, uh, pretty strong viewpoint of the unique way in which particularly kind of modern devices and social media open us up into sinful behavior that that we have to be very careful about. So so in your thinking about the book, when did the kind of idea of the set or in the sermon series, the idea of the seven deadly sins as the framing structure for it come in? And then what do you think that framing offers by way of an understanding of what what these devices are are doing to us?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah. I I knew I wanted to be as specific as I could be regarding the deformative effects of our devices. Uh many people have a general sense that untempered attachment is not good for us. And we now have decades of information to consider 20 to 30 years of men and women, boys and girls wielding these personal devices that allow, you know, essentially uninterrupted access to email and social media and videos and infinitely more. And I think many people would say that this generation raised on devices doesn't seem to be uh more human, more humane. Uh in fact, none none of us who live online seem to be more alert to spiritual realities or more focused on the kingdom of God. So we have this general anecdotal assessment of the situation that isn't very positive. I just I wanted to add some specificity. Uh, what exactly is happening to us? And um, and as I set out on the journey of research and writing somewhere along the way, I landed on organizing the book around the seven deadly sins, sometimes called the seven capital vices. Um yeah, I talk about this in the book, a bit of vice or its counterpart of virtue is a habitual disposition, a character trait, uh, or a way of being is kind of how I talk about it in the book. And we cultivate positive or negative character traits over time through repeated actions. Virtues are excellences of character, vices are failures of character. Or we could say that um the former are ways of living well in God's world, and the latter are ways of living poorly and having a corruptive and uh and destructive effect on ourselves and others. And as you guys know, a list of vices similar to the one I use in the book was was first compiled probably in the fourth century, Evagrius of Pontius. Um Evagrius joined a monastic community deliberately withdrawing from the world. And it's a bit ironic that they're in the desert, a member of this community created with the hope of a deeper experience of God. Evagrius and his fellow monks actually became better acquainted with their own sin. Um and then, you know, throughout the tradition of the 13th century, Thomas Aquinas develops the list that I that I follow in the book. But um, what what was interesting to me is the Christian tradition singles out these vices because they are source vices. Um that is, they are vices that serve as an ever-bubbling wellspring of many, many others. So if we picture, if we picture a spiritual battle, these vices are the generals with other vices serving as the foot soldiers. Uh or to use an image that was very common in the medieval, uh in the Middle Ages, if we picture a tree, these vices are the main branches. And from each of those seven grows many smaller branches, each of those uh likewise bearing toxic fruit. So so I I thought this would be a helpful way of bringing the specificity into this conversation that I wanted to try to bring to it. So what I do in each chapter, more or less, is I do an anatomy of one of the vices. What does scripture teach us about it? What does it look like? Um, these vices are less like a broken arm, easily spotted and rather simple to treat, and they're much more like a cancer uh hidden within us and more challenging to eradicate. So I do that anatomy. What is this vice? What does it look like? Um, and then uh secondly, I consider how our devices incite or stir up that particular vice. Uh, and then in the end, I try to develop a theological understanding uh and offer some spiritual practices, rhythms of abiding in Jesus that will counter that vice's power. Uh the only lasting solution, I think, to being carried away by this vice-inducing digital flow is to become uh anchored in and enlivened by the scriptural story. I really think that's the solution. So I spend a decent amount of time trying to help the reader with the theology of the Bible rather than simply saying to him or her, you know, be sure you turn off your device at this time of night or or that time of the morning.

Zach Wagner 19:49

Yeah, I love um because it's helpful, not because like, oh, this is so beautiful, but love the analogy to cancer. Like this is not an obvious malformation that's happening, it's something internal and even invisible. And like cancer, you can kind of be walking around feeling more or less healthy, and then it can be literally killing you in uh a hundred different ways very, very quickly. And it's uh that much more difficult to eradicate. I think just to carry the metaphor, I've heard more than one person um describe their use of devices and scrolling in particular, and I resonate with this, as like a cigarette break where you, you know, used to be on lunch, or if you were really stressed out, coming out of a meeting, on your break at work, if you're busing tables or waiting tables or something, you go smoke a cigarette. And it was a way of taking like the edge off whatever negative emotion or kind of body feeling you were having, and almost like a soothing relaxance and a ritual that helped you do that. And man, I I the way, you know, I've never been a smoker in my life, but the way I can, when I'm feeling angsty or stressed or whatever, reach for my phone the way someone would reach for a box of cigarettes in their pocket, it seems very um telling, just the way our brains uh do that. And of course, the analogy uh cigarettes give you cancer. And what I really appreciate about what you've done here is exactly what you said. It it kind of creates the takes the conversation one step further, because I think so many of us would say, Yeah, I get that, like social media, or I get that having my phone around all the time or checking my email all day. I get that that's not good for me. And in a similar way where you could imagine someone saying, like, I get that smoking's not good for me, but I don't really feel like stopping or moderating it or anything like that. Um, but you just give that specificity, like you said. You take the conversation one step further into how is this malforming you? How is this uh Creating, seeding that cancer of vice inside of you. Yeah, but in terms of a follow-up question, and I feel like you may need to remind me, I feel like maybe you do talk about this in the book. Maybe you don't. I read it months ago. You were uh kind enough to send me an advanced copy of it. So but to this to the person who would say, well, isn't technology just quote unquote a neutral tool? Um and evangelicals are very fond of saying this about all sorts of technologies and appropriating them for gospel quote unquote ends or missional ends. Um what would you say to someone who feels like you're just being too hard on uh technology and focusing only on the vicious aspects of it? And people uh people are saying, like, I use my vice to memorize Bible, my uh device rather, to memorize Bible verses or to listen to sermons and Christian podcasts. And um I can, you know, text people and stay connected, you know, so many quote unquote good uses. How do you think about that with uh what you're highlighting in in terms of the vicious kind of formational deformational aspect of technology in this way?

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yeah, but yeah, by admission, this this work uh does uh does set out to focus on um the harmful effects, like that side of what devices do to us. Doesn't mean that that you know that there's not another side that there are other works that have been written that um that I can point readers to, and I do so in the footnotes that uh that bring out some of the other more positive uses of technology. Uh to the question, are our devices neutral? That's the very question I use when I'm teaching uh technology and spiritual formation to middle school and high school students. Uh they're they're always keen to discuss this subject, some of them thinking themselves experts on the topic since they've spent, you know, they've spent more time with their iPhones than with every flesh and blood person in their lives combined. Yeah. Right. So they think they think they're experts.

Joel Lawrence 23:56

And so I usually begin the 10,000 hours, right? Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Yeah. So I usually begin our discussions with the question, is technology good? Is it bad, or is it neutral? And almost every student responds, neutral. And then I tell them it's a trick question. Um I've been really helped here by Melvin Kranzberg's article, Technology and History, which was published some some 40 years ago now. Uh, Kransberg says technology is neither good nor bad, nor is it neutral. Uh, and and by this, I think he means it's not as simple as dropping a gadget into an ethics machine and then waiting for it to come out the other side stamped as either virtuous or sinful. In reality, the inherent sinfulness or virtue associated with a given technology is often vague until a person wields that tool with intent. So the same technology can have different results when introduced in different contexts or in different ways. Nuclear technology, for example, offers the prospect of unlimited energy resources, but also the possibility of worldwide destruction. Um, and to help us get that point, Kranzberg tells a little story. Uh, once after a concert, a lady rushed to the great violinist Fritz Chrysler and said, Maestro, your violin makes such beautiful music. And Chrysler held his violin up to his ear and replied, I don't hear any music coming out of it. And of course, the point is when when man wields, when man wields technology, and especially as he wields it over time, then we begin to see more clearly the good or the bad, the beautiful or the ugly. And and the duty, the duty of the historian Kranzberg says is to compare the short-term versus the long-term results, the utopian hopes versus the spotted actuality. And I would say that in the case of at least social media, if we're talking just about that, the spotted actuality is more negative than positive, I would say.

Joel Lawrence 25:53

Yeah. Yeah, I I I appreciated that that discussion in in the book. And you know, it shifts the conversation that it's not technology, good, bad, or neutral, it's it's humanity. And and and then these technologies, I I think as you've said, there are certain ways that they shape us, and that's really the fundamental question is is the thing shaping us for good? Is the thing shaping us for bad? There's no I I just think neutral is not the not a good category here. And it's so interesting that that's how most everyone, you talked about students, but but a lot of people will say, no, yeah, it's neutral, it depends on how we use it. Well, then the question becomes well, how do we use it? How do we use it? Yeah, and what does that say about us? And then what is our use of it also doing to us? And I think it can it shapes it from a technology question to an anthropology question. Right.

Zach Wagner 26:52

Is your use of this making you more or less human? Yeah, which of course is the virtue-vice conversation because uh the growth into virtue is growth towards the perfection of our humanity growth towards the tellos of what we were made for. And vice is the dissolution of that. The vice is the slow process of becoming less human. So, yeah, really, really helpful.

unknown 27:19

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 27:19

So Dylan, um, I'm I'm curious as you work through the seven, the seven deadly sins, um, was there one in particular that you found really intriguing in a in an angle that it gave you in? Was there one that you found surprising at kind of some of the connections that you were able to make between that that vice and devices?

SPEAKER_03 27:45

I think probably the two that um stick out the most in my own thinking would be uh the first two I covered in the book, Vainglory and Envy. Uh vainglory is is it's not a common word in our vocabularies. We might be inclined to equate vainglory with pride, but I think they're slightly different. Pride is concerned with excellence, and vainglory is more concerned with appearance. So the prideful person wants superior status, he or she values being number one on the team or you know, number one in the field of study. The vainglorious person wants superior notice, with or without the excellence. They just want to be noticed. And and we can certainly see how social media um has just created um a platform for vainglory where everyone wants to be noticed. Um, but I think for me personally, uh envy, the research and the writing I did on envy, I came to see that when I was on social media, I populated my digital communities with the very people I am most inclined to envy. Uh I can I can hear someone sing um a song, uh sing it beautifully, and I don't envy that person because that's not my gift. I'm I'm not a musician, I'm not a singer. But um, if you know another another author, uh friend of mine, if he publishes a book, and I think, oh, that was a great idea. That, you know, I would have loved to have published a book like that. I'm I'm inclined to envy the people who have the same sorts of gifts that I have, right? And those are the very ones that I was putting into my digital communities. And so I can look back and see, oh wow, I I really was um just stirring up the envy within my own heart by the way I was structuring my uh my social media communities. So those I think those are the two that I keep coming back to uh most often in my discussions of the book with others and just in my own personal um confession of sin.

Joel Lawrence 29:39

Yeah. I I I I appreciated the the way you articulated the difference between pride and vainglory. I thought that was that was very helpful. Um and then particularly how social media taps into that that that drive in us. Um I also liked in your envy chapter the the the metaphor or the s the the symbol that you use of of Alice in Wonderland and the the Queen looking into the you know, or sorry, Snow White and the Queen looking into the mirror and how our devices become that for us. That's just some really, really helpful imagery to to connect these things. So, all right, the books, it's not a book about AI per se, but AI is on all of our minds these days, and questions around the use of AI, what's it gonna do to us, all these kind of things. I I would be curious just to hear your thoughts. You you touch on it a little bit in the book, but as you think about AI, as you think about AI as a pastor, like what are you thinking about as this thing is becoming more and more uh a regular part of our lives? How are you thinking about AI and and um kind of how it might be a part of this devices conversation?

SPEAKER_03 31:00

I'm trying to decide right now if I want to stay on this subject of technology and make that very question my next deep dive, or if I've had enough of all this and I'm ready to move on to something else. And I haven't I haven't yet decided. But so I don't have I don't have any final draft thoughts on AI. I've not thought deeply about the subject yet. Um, but I do have some, I'll give you some rough draft thoughts about that. That'd be great. Um I yeah, honestly, I'm concerned. I'm concerned about what we lose in ourselves as we ourselves do less and less work. I think that's the best way I can put it for now. Uh one one of my literary heroes is J.R. Tolkien, who's been wrongly thought a technophobe. Uh a closer reading of Tolkien's life and characters reveals not an irrational dismissal of all technology, but actually a judicious concern about the limits and proper uses of technological innovations. Uh, in The Hobbit, Tolkien introduces goblins as creatures who make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones, hammers and axes and swords and so on. And then he goes on to say that it's uh it's unlikely that goblins invented, excuse me, it's likely that uh goblins invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world because wheels and engines and explosions have always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help. So for Tolkien, the evil of goblin tech is associated with its utility. Uh it's a means of dominating the will of another, or it's a means of avoiding work, avoiding work. And I'm concerned about what we lose in ourselves as we ourselves do less and less work. Uh in Walt Disney's 1940 film Fantasia, The Apprentice succeeds in getting the broom to work autonomously. But we all know how that played out.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Uh easy everything. This this seems to be the motto of much of today's tech. What developers want, unlike what the old tool maker toolmakers wanted, is not so much to extend human engagement with the world, but to replace human engagements. Uh they, and even we at times want tech to just take over for us. Um Andy Crouch is helpful on this as well. He says that there are two fundamental promises made on behalf of every device. The first is now you'll be able to. And the second is you'll no longer have to. And I think in our time the balance has shifted to that latter promise. You'll no longer have to. Our main fascination with technology is not the things it enables us to do so much, but the things we no longer have to do. And I do find that part disconcerting. Um, you know, even in my role as a pastor, could AI write some very good sermons for me? Maybe. I don't know. I haven't tried that and I don't intend to. Maybe though, but what would I lose in myself if I stopped doing that hard but good work of getting in the text week after week and thinking and praying carefully through it and thinking about the people in my congregation that the Lord has entrusted to our care. You know, I'm concerned about that part of what we lose in ourselves as we ourselves do less and less work, if that makes sense.

Joel Lawrence 34:08

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And for for whatever it's worth, my vote would be that you write on that. Uh that would be really helpful because I I think that's a that's a great angle at it. Uh, and the the question of labor and work and what it means to be human, that yeah, it's so tied up in all of these, all of these questions. So, all right. Um, last thing I want to talk about before we let you go is you you mentioned not having AI write your sermons, which I I wholeheartedly endorse. Um, but you know, we've been thinking a lot as CPT around preaching these last few years through the the uh Lily grant that we've received on compelling preaching and and this question of preaching and technology has been one of the conversations that we've had quite a lot. I would be curious, um, just for the pastors who are listening, how how do you think about technology in in preaching? How do you use technology in the preparation of sermons? Uh how how can make some connections between these questions around technology and then and then the the pastoral call to proclaim the word?

SPEAKER_03 35:24

I guess I'm I'm fairly low-tech in my typical preparation uh process. I'm thinking through it right now. Um I I do I type a full manuscript every week. Um I've been in the habit of doing that for many, many years. I do.

Joel Lawrence 35:38

Do you take that up with you uh into the pulpit?

SPEAKER_03 35:41

No, I don't. I do I preach without notes, but I'll write out the full manuscript every week because it's just much easier for me to find the words in the preaching moment if I've done that. If I'm clear in the writing, then I'll be much clearer in the preaching moment. So uh I'm writing the full manuscripts. I do use linguistic software or I'm using accordance as I'm doing my uh you know, Greek and Hebrew studies and things like that. I I have some buddies who I have a lot of respect for who speak about using AI as kind of a research assistant. And I'm not opposed to that. I just have not done that personally. It's not a it's not a habit that I'm uh that I have formed. Um but I've I've you know I'm sitting in my in my study as we're doing this podcast, and I'm surrounded by books, old-fashioned books. I've got a lot of them, and I find great comfort in just sitting in this room full of these old-fashioned books. It's uh it's a it's a warm and welcoming place. And so this is where most of the sermon writing happens for me. It's um it's pretty pretty old school, pretty traditional in that way.

Joel Lawrence 36:35

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I um I appreciate that that that call to old school. Um, I you know, it it is interesting having these conversations that we've been having and and where different people are coming out. It it does seem like I haven't met anyone that I really would turn to for advice on this who thinks that having AI write you a sermon is a good idea. I know there are people out there who are doing that, but but none of the people I would certainly look to. I think this question of even in the research, like what do we lose if we allow AI to do some of that grunt work, that that hard work, that yeah, it's gonna make it more efficient, but but it's just there's a there's a tremendous amount of work, I think, that the Spirit of God does in that in that grunt work. And if we if we bypass that, I I myself have some pretty significant concerns about that.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah, I agree.

Zach Wagner 37:33

It reminds me, this isn't original to me, but I don't remember where I heard it. That we're we're in the middle of this ongoing technological revolution, going back to you know, when Al Gore invented the internet and all these sorts of things. Um But you know, this AI could very well be a kind of BCAD moment in human history, you know, on par with any other technological transformation and perhaps well beyond any of them. And but the point being as it relates to the technological revolution, is I think we're in a moment where technology is aspiring to do for our minds what the Industrial Revolution did for our bodies, namely, kind of take away this strenuous labor, quote unquote. Talk about you'll no longer have to, and not extending, but replacing human effort and work. And that's that's happening with our our minds, it seems to me, or at least it's thr uh it's threatening to happen to our minds. And anybody who's read a book can tell you there's a difference between reading a book summary and reading the book. Um and there the difference is in the way it actually hits your heart and your soul and your mind in in a thousand ways. Like it doesn't even need explaining, it seems to me. So yeah, I well, you know, we're we're among friends. I I'll just echo my uh concern and my hesitance and uh about all of this. And it yeah, it seems to me, and I think um, you know, this is one of the most pastorally urgent questions um of the coming century in all likelihood. Uh, what does it mean to be human and what is technology doing to us?

Joel Lawrence 39:28

So Dylan, thanks so much for for joining us. Uh, thanks for the book and the work that you put into it. And um, I think it's a great gift to the church. Want to encourage folks to pick it up. Again, it's called Deathly Devices, our ever-present portals to seven ancients. Uh blessings to your brother. And as you continue to pastor your congregation, we pray that the the Lord be with you.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Joel Zach, thanks so much for the invite, guys. Good to talk with you as always.

Zach Wagner 39:59

Thanks, Dylan. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Frequorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.