Becoming a Pastor Theologian | Brad Embry

In this episode we welcome CPT Fellow Brad Embry, pastor of Missions and Outreach at St. Michael’s Anglican Church in Wisconsin. He shares his journey from biblical scholar to Pastor Theologian, reflecting on vocational discernment, transitioning away from academia, and finding a home in the Anglican tradition.

Listen as we discuss the relationship between theological scholarship and the local church, the future of theological education, and the vital role of pastor-theologians in serving God’s people.

Join us at the CPT Conference

Transcript

Brad Embry 0:01

In order for someone who's academically trained and minded, for someone to do that work well, they they do need some time of leisure. There has to be a commitment on the church's part to the individual to give them time to tool up.

Zach Wagner 0:23

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CBT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner and am joined, as always, by CBT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And for today's episode, you had a conversation with Brad Embry, who is another one of our newer fellows who I believe got added into the St. Hildegard. St. Hildegard. Yeah. St. Hildegard Military. Yep. Yep. And he serves as a pastor for Missions and Outreach at St. Michael's Anglican Church in Delafield, Wisconsin, which I had a chance to go visit Brad for an event at his church. And they're just in one of these lovely little lake towns in Wisconsin, kind of, I mean, there's a jillion of them. You're up in Minnesota, you guys got a bunch of these too as well. Just lakes, lakes for days up there. And um, one of those places that's bustling and got a really cute downtown and great place to hang out in the summer and nice and quiet in the winter and still lovely. So uh I was coveting my neighbors, uh, my neighbor's parish context while I was up there. Um but yeah, this was a becoming a pastor theologian conversation, getting to know Brad a little bit. He's one of our newer fellows, and he's got a unique story. Tell us a little bit about your conversation with Brad, Joel.

Joel Lawrence 1:42

Yeah, so Brad has been uh in academia for most of his adult life. He uh actually we we talk about in the conversation. We we know we crossed paths back in in the UK in the early 2000s. Uh don't remember each other, but but inevitably we were in the same room a handful of times. But he his his academic career has been for most of the last quarter of a century. And a few years ago, through a variety of different circumstances, really felt the Lord calling him uh into the pastorate, and that that set a trajectory for him into the Anglican church, and he's as you said, he's currently in the ordination process. So I think this will be a great conversation for everyone to listen to, but but particularly there are folks out there listening who have had a long career in academia, and you know, for a variety of different reasons, may themselves be wondering about if there's a call in their lives to go into pastoral ministry. Um Brad's Brad's done it and he's living it. And I think this is just a really helpful, um helpful conversation and again a recognition that there's lots of different paths that the Lord takes us on in our ministry life and career, and there are different iterations of that. And so hopefully Brad's story will be helpful for uh for maybe some who are who are pondering what God is doing in their life and what it looks like for them to follow after him in a new season.

Zach Wagner 3:14

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brad and I have talked, uh kind of speaking personally for a moment, a little bit about this as I'm uh kind of in the process of discerning kind of in my own post-PHD stage, what the Lord has for me next. And he's he's he's been through it, and we've talked talked a little bit about this as well. And I know um kind of trends being what they are, a lot of people who love the church, love the study of God, love studying scripture, um demographic tensions and social tensions, all of that. There's a lot of churn on a lot of these questions right now. So I I trust folks will uh find this conversation challenging and helpful and encouraging. And Brad's a great guy to get to know as well. So without further ado, let's get into the conversation.

Joel Lawrence 4:01

Hey Brad, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on.

Brad Embry 4:05

Thanks, Joel. It's good to be here. Thanks for hosting me.

Joel Lawrence 4:08

Yeah, absolutely. So uh this is one of our Becoming a Pastor Theologian podcasts where we have the opportunity to get to know our CPT fellows. Uh and uh so Brad, just want to take a little bit of time here and hear a bit of your story. So why don't we uh begin at the beginning? Tell us a little bit about where you were born and and where you grew up and your journey of faith in the early years.

Brad Embry 4:33

Yeah, thanks. Uh I was born and raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana, so the northeast part of Indiana. Um yeah, my journey of faith. I mean, I was raised in a Christian household um and uh attended church faithfully and regularly. Uh we started in, I think it was a just a congregationalist church, and then uh in my I think I was fifth or sixth grade, my mom took us to a non-denominational church. It had formerly been associated with the Assemblies of God, but um had broken off uh as a big non-denominational church. Um and I spent the rest of my middle school and high school years uh attending there. Um mixed mixed thoughts on it, uh, a lot of rich moments. Um, you know, it's where it's through that season that I became more serious about my faith and taking it personally, and um, but I never really fully connected to I don't think to that kind of like uh that that form of worship and that style. The church ended up you know navigating some of its own problems. Um yeah, that was a formative um kind of upbringing for me. Um and a part of that's never left me. I mean, I remained um yeah, I remained informed by sort of broadly charismatic renewalist sort of traditions, um even though that's not where I not where I worship now and and not my my ministerial context.

Joel Lawrence 6:03

So yeah. So so as you were as you were growing up, did you did you kind of was faith always a part of your of your life? Did you struggle with faith? Was it did you grapple with some of these questions or what was your sense of the Lord's presence in your life as you were as you were growing?

Brad Embry 6:25

Yeah, I never really did. So, you know, in in you know, I've had a number of job applications that have asked me about my you know my faith journey. And yeah, I always answer that I'm a little boring and that I um I never really had a a season of falling away. I mean, my my how I understand my spiritual life, of course, is has developed um and it's gone through seasons of um of strain and challenge. But m mostly that's just I think um a redefinition of what I understand by you know the spiritual life. But in terms of like my early years, yeah, my the context that I was raised in and my um my own inclinations were always to just sort of reach very quickly to uh a life of Christian faith. Um the one the one thing that I would say was like uh a moment of shifting for me was probably in high school when uh I just began to realize that I needed to to take uh to take my my own spiritual life a little more seriously, uh and to own it, I suppose is a way of doing it a little bit more, uh, which for me involved mainly just personal prayer life, development of personal prayer life, um, a little more serious study. Um though early on, study wasn't a like a key component to that. It was more of just um kind of like an interiorization of the of the life of God and me. And so yeah.

Joel Lawrence 7:56

What was that was the impulse for that kind of deepening and owning it yourself? Was there a was there an an external circumstance that that prompted some of that or or was it something internally where you just had a deeper sense of of the of the life of faith and your desire to pursue that?

Brad Embry 8:18

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, uh my parents had gone through a divorce fifth uh late uh the latter part of my elementary years into and into the early part of my middle school years. I think that that kind of I created a like a movement in my life. It was a slow boil. And I did I can't say looking back on it, can't say that it really sort of like directly I felt this really strong sort of like upheaval in my life. But it could be that that was a part of it, that uh, you know, if you're going to live this life, then you're going to need you're gonna need some stability. And so reaching into the the life of faith and taking it more seriously, and and maybe a little bit of it was just sort of a fact-finding on my part, which was to say, or which is to say, you know, is this a good foundation from which to, you know, build a a healthy life? Internally, it was yeah, there was a little bit of maturity, I think, that was going on to my you know, for me, um and a sense of growth, and that, you know, there's you know, are you going to is is this the sort of thing that you're going to take seriously? Or is it just going to be this thing that's a sort of throwaway? And I I suppose I really felt like it it couldn't be one or the other. Like it needed to be, I needed to be all in and then needed to take ownership, or just it didn't matter much at all. And so I reached in and took ownership.

Joel Lawrence 9:39

Good choice. Good choice.

Brad Embry 9:41

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Joel Lawrence 9:43

So um, so after you graduated high school, then take us into your undergrad days. What was your major? Where how was your faith growing during that time? And at at what point in your life do you start to sense a a call to ministry?

Brad Embry 9:58

Um, yeah, so I wasn't uh I mean I started I didn't really start to take academics very seriously. Actually, my my desire to take academics seriously probably coincided right around the time to take my faith seriously. Um so I think that there probably was a little more holistic sort of growth that was going on, um which at the center, the driver of this was uh was my spiritual development. Um so uh coming out of high school, the background there is to say that coming out of high school, I didn't have a really strong sense of like an academic uh desire, like I wanted to pursue this or that. I actually find which is kind of comedic now, if you know, knowing myself a bit better, I enrolled and and was accepted at Indiana University in their physics program. Oh, okay. So there's a physics iteration. Well, at the time I went to Indiana where you know it was mapping towards mechanical engineering. So you're part of the physics program as it was directed to to engineering. I went the actual sort of like I want to be a physicist physics route. And within the first semester, I was divested like that that desire was sort of beaten out of me through calculus and all the other things that I realized I wasn't particularly suited for. So um and that created a little bit of a crisis because I didn't that that was probably the first time in my life where I was faced with, well, you know, you need to make a decision as an an adult as to what to do. So I took a semester off and and then um I actually went to Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And my real interest there was I wanted to play baseball. They had a really good baseball team in the world.

Joel Lawrence 11:42

Yeah, yeah, they did. Yeah.

Brad Embry 11:44

Yeah. And so I went out, um, I was offered a walk-on spot, um, and then I ended up realizing that I, you know, you hear baseball players talk about you you've gotta have the you've got to have the physical ability, but there's a lot of like mental ability that comes alongside it. Well, I probably I would I wouldn't have been like a great baseball player. That's that team was filled with great baseball players, and I would have been like middle of the road. But I didn't have it mentally, and I came to realize that because I was around these really good, talented baseball players. And anyway, I remember telling the coach, and I I just ended up giving up the spot, and then um, and then I'm sitting there at O'Roberts University not really knowing what to do with myself. And right at that time I started making some friends. I needed to declare a uh a major, and I'd always been interested in history, so I declared for history. I did a modern Hebrew minor. Um that kind of like that that season sort of just triggered in me an interest in the life of the mind. Um and uh it led me in the modern Hebrew in particular, and some of my courses in history, um, and the context at Oral Roberts, uh, which you know I had mixed emotions about and mixed memories of, but but there were some really good moments there that instilled and cultivated in me a desire to deepen this um this life of the mind. And so I started uh started down that path. And yeah, that led to uh a master's degree and then on to PhD work.

Joel Lawrence 13:17

So let's yeah, let's let's track your interests going through that. So as a history major, was there a particular era of history? Is it were you doing church history or were you doing more more general history? What was the what was the era that you were reflecting on?

Brad Embry 13:36

Yeah, more general history, and um, and as a as a you know, taking a major in history at at Ourof, at least for me, um, it was more I needed to do something, and then uh that program allowed you a little bit of latitude, you could do some independent studies, and so so I did. And then the the minor in modern Hebrew always you know constantly puts you in touch with um um studies in Judaism, and that necessarily got me back into and and you're or Robert, so you're always talking about Bible and theology, and so those things I think created a stew that that led me to an interest in studying uh the Bible more carefully. And that that uh after the undergraduate I decided to to do uh a master's in biblical literature at at Oil Roberts. So I just continued there, and my wife and I had met married, and so it made made sense for us to stay. And and that really was the key. I uh once I took that, I just got I got hooked in um in biblical literature and study of the Bible and study theology and languages, and that set me on this path. So Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 14:52

So so that was uh was that a two-year master's then at Oral Roberts after you graduated? Yeah.

Brad Embry 14:58

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 14:59

Okay.

Brad Embry 14:59

I had to do I forget now what it was. It might have been I'm sure it was a scheduling error. I was never graded, like I just never paid attention to degree plans. I wasn't awesome. But I ended up being another reason I say it, I ended up being a third year, but I think it's because I I failed to take a course. Um had to do it third year, but yeah. So yeah, two-year program.

Joel Lawrence 15:21

So as you're doing that program, uh you you had your your minor in in modern biblical Hebrew. Did you find yourself gravitating more towards Old Testament, more towards New Testament? Where were your where were your interests taking you in in the biblical literature?

Brad Embry 15:42

Yeah, yeah. So this is a good insight into me. Another good insight into me, I suppose, is I never really thought that through. So I just I just sort of started into the master's program, partly just out of like, I just realized I was kind of awakening in the mind, and I just felt this real desire to continue learning. And so, and this was an area that sort of captivated me very broadly. And then you you know, as you know, you know, you go into biblical literature, well, you could study a a single book and the life of it. Um and so I had this sort of like very broad sort of interest, but when I got into the program, um the master's program, I I continually gravitated towards Old Testament studies. I remember reading uh Walter Eichrot's two-volume theology. And that was really that was really kind of a primary hook because it just it just landed so well with me. I just realized like this is like it felt right as to how my mind was thinking. Not that I've like, you know, not that I sort of totally agree with Eichroat, but the point is that the way which he approached the Old Testament just was really satisfying to think that you know you can make a life of that kind of study. So from that point forward, I always had an interest in in the Old Testament, but I was working with a lot of people who were interested in what would be kind of broadly termed early Jewish literature, and so I continued to sort of you know kind of cultivate an interest in the the emergence of Christianity uh in the New Testament period, and um and that's what prompted me to go to the University of Tulsa, where I started a master's in um, and actually it was a master's in history, but with a focus on on uh Greco-Roman uh culture. The the problem was, and this is again back to Brad not planning very well, um, they they I didn't do my due diligence. They offered single courses in those areas, but not a programmatic study. And so I ended up doing a year's work there, which was great, um, and then transferred to the PhD program in Durham. And the idea there was I was going to continue this, uh kind of continue exploring the emergence of uh Christianity in re in reference to uh early Jewish literature uh and the and Judaism of that time period. But as I was doing that, I kept getting drawn back into Old Testament studies because um, again, that's where like the core taproot kind of like uh interested for me.

Joel Lawrence 18:13

So but before uh before we dig more into that and your time in Durham, um, I feel like I I probably already know the answer to this question given that a lot of your answers have been I hadn't thought about that or hadn't thought that through. But uh as you were doing these programs, I mean, were you thinking academic career in front of you? Was there a sense of pastoral ministry anywhere emerging in you, or are you just kind of you're just going with the flow and not quite sure what's coming?

Brad Embry 18:42

Yeah, a bit more of the latter part of that, I'm not afraid. But but there's also but a good way to live.

Joel Lawrence 18:48

I mean, there's a there's a goodness in living like this, right?

Brad Embry 18:52

Yeah, eventually you gotta you gotta make stuff. At some point.

Joel Lawrence 18:55

At some point, yeah.

Brad Embry 18:56

I always I always joke with people that I didn't really know exactly I didn't really have a strong sense of what I wanted to do till I was in my PhD program. And I think there's a lot of there's truth to that for me. Uh but looking back on it, you know, e even in the master's degree program, there was for me a deep desire to take the things that I was learning and share them with people. Um and so I think that that kind of sits at the heart of like you know, pastoral work and certainly educative work. Um and so I think I think there was a I mean I think I could you know safely say now that that that sort of like interest in that pastoral interest and that academic interest for the service of God's people um kind of was there almost from the beginning of this this journey, even if I couldn't articulate like a precise thing that I wanted to do. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 19:50

Yeah, no, that that makes a that makes a ton of sense and actually kind of resonates with me as well. Because as you've been as you've been talking about your journey, it's uh it's reminding me of mine in in some ways of uh like I I knew what I wanted to do next, but I wasn't quite sure where it was where it was going and uh ultimately why I was doing this, but I knew this is what I needed to do. So that that seems like a a path that you were on as well. So so you um so you had from from Tulsa to to Durham. Right. Um so you move over to the you moved over to the UK. Um and so how long were you over there? And again, kind of take us through what what were you studying, what was your PhD uh focus?

Brad Embry 20:37

So yeah, I was at Durham University from 2001 to 2004. Uh the degree was conferred in 2005. We had moved, uh, we relocated to Hawaii.

Joel Lawrence 20:49

Um which, if I could interject here a second, I uh in in our in a conversation we had at your fellowship gathering recently, we figured we must have been in the common room at Tyndale House together. Yes. Because I was there at those I was at Tyndale House those same years, and you came down and so we we we probably had a chat over tea at some point in time when but we we don't I don't I don't think we remember each other, but but we must have been in the same room and and probably had a a a sparkling conversation, I'm sure.

Brad Embry 21:20

I'm sure of it. Yeah, no, I'm confident that we did, because yeah, we we reconstructed our histories and and uh there was certainly some overlap. Yeah, I spent uh of the three years residential in Durham, I think probably two and a half to three months down at Tyndale over the course of that time. So which is a jewel. Yeah, so yeah, we ended up uh so in Durham, um in the Department of Theology, did a PhD in theology, uh concentration within early Jewish literature. Um I think it's I I I'm sure there's others that were like me, but most of the most of my colleagues Who were in that program uh tended to work uh more towards the New Testament and New Testament studies. Um, my main focus and and kind of area of interest, which um I didn't start out here, but I it became this, was a kind of a uh reception history sort of approach, but analyzing uh some of these early Jewish um documents as to the structures that inform them. So, and that always meant a reach for me at least back into um back into the Old Testament. And that kind of was what I mean again, it's back to that tap root, you know, from the Master's degree program was just this constant interest in this. And it was so I was looking at analyzing kind of forms, structures, themes, and how uh these uh these communities in this time period, uh the emergence of uh Christianity, how these Jewish communities were were either coping with, dealing with, or constructing texts, um utilizing Old Testament resources and references. And that was and what that meant was as I as I started to as I developed in the program, as we continued forward, you know, it's like okay, now you now you really do need to make a decision, Brad, as to what you're gonna do with your life. Right. Now that you're grow now that you're grown up.

Joel Lawrence 23:22

You're running out you're running out of education to to hide behind, right? Now life is coming.

Brad Embry 23:28

Yeah, there's only so many more days that you can do this. And so I started like I started thinking through a teaching career, which seemed to make best sense. I seemed to be most like wired and drawn to that. Uh not in not exclusively, but that seems to be the direction that I was going. And um that that meant in in that time period there were there were a handful of early Jewish literature jobs, but the bulk of them were either in Old Testament or New Testament studies. So I just kind of shifted to Old Testament studies. That's why I did. I I you know it was really fulfilling to me. And I taught for what almost 16 years or 17 years at three three institutions and um all in the area of Old Testament. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 24:12

Yeah, so so uh take us through that that part of your journey. Where where were you and um kind of your your experiences teaching in the academy for for 16 years?

Brad Embry 24:24

Yeah, I started, so we moved, as I said, we moved to Hawaii from England, and I taught at a I taught at a a Bible college that was formed out of a church, a big church. Um and I taught on I taught all day on Wednesday, taught two courses on Wednesday. And then around that I was I worked as a carpenter for my father-in-law at a uh small construction company he had started. Um I did that for I did that for I think a year, and then I was hired full-time at a at a small seminary, which was called uh International College and Graduate School at the time. It's since closed. Um and that was uh that was as I say, that was a uh a seminary experience, very small. Um, but it was really a really a rewarding time uh teaching in the islands. It was kind of funny because the the Bible school that I taught at, I'd just come from Durham, and I was like, you know, race car ready, you know. It's you just your first off, your PhD, and so it's like everything is you know dialed in and focused. And I get to this Bible's this Bible college, run out of a church, and I've got these students and I loved them, and I really enjoyed my time. I learned a lot about just like like I learned a lot about teaching and what it meant to connect with students in that environment. But like it would show up 15, 20 minutes late. If the surf was up on the south shore and nine students, one would show up in a wetsuit. Yeah, it was just one of these things where it's like you know, they they're not taking this nearly as seriously as I am.

Joel Lawrence 26:06

But there's and it's and it's the Hawaii culture, right? Like I mean the it's the island time, right? Yeah.

Brad Embry 26:12

It was yeah, they weren't taking it nearly as seriously as I was, but there was but at the same time they took their their spiritual life very seriously. And it was a lovely thing for me to sort of realize that kind of that that connection that was being made because I had a lot to offer them. Um but I had to sort of like navigate like what's your end goal in this classroom? Like, what is the thing that you want to get uh across to them?

Joel Lawrence 26:38

And it's and it's not and it's not the same as the end goal of a Durham classroom, right? It's a yeah. So were these were these students all connected with that particular church? Were they attending there or interns there, or were they from different places on the islands?

Brad Embry 26:56

Yeah, I think it was more well, there were there were a lot of them that were connected to the church and were working in some capacity at the church. I'm not sure that all of them were um you know on staff place.

Joel Lawrence 27:08

Um a lot of them were church-based.

Brad Embry 27:11

Right.

Joel Lawrence 27:12

Like they were in ministry, yeah. Yeah.

Brad Embry 27:14

Yeah. So that was great. And then uh about let's see, it was in our second year in Hawaii, and I had been looking actively for academic posts. They're, you know, they've always been hard to get, and I'd lots of lots of no's in that uh search. And then um I had a former colleague of mine from Durham who had been hired onto the school uh outside just in the Seattle area called Northwest University, and they had a visiting faculty position open in opened up for Old Testament. Um I applied for it, was awarded, and um and it was a one-year appointment, but they were hiring the next year full-time. So I uh I and the family at this point, we had one child. We moved to Seattle and I started teaching there. The next year I got the position. Uh a few years later, ended up tenure. It was an undergraduate setting. I taught, I think I taught they were they were trying to build a graduate program, and I think I taught one graduate course, but most of my work there was undergraduate.

Joel Lawrence 28:19

Um was that a a denominationally uh uh centered?

Brad Embry 28:24

It was. Yeah, it was. So it was uh an assemblies of God school. Okay, yeah. So I was ordained with the with the AG for well my entire time there. So I think seven years. Yeah. Right. So yeah, and still some great friends and and a lot of like, you know, from a teaching standpoint, just a lovely, wonderful time. We had great students, I had some great colleagues. Um and I learned, I mean, it's it's now it's the old story, you just learn a lot when you're on the job. And there's a lot from your you know, your academic background, your training that can't you can't quite prepare for that. You just need to be in the situation and teaching and um some really strong students um and a lot of great experiences there. Uh but I was starting towards the tail end of that. I was I was I had started I had never really thought to cultivate like a big academic career. Um I'd done, you know, you obviously write your dissertation, and but towards my the end of my time there, I'd had some success publishing. And I'd been awarded a book contract for a proposal on Genesis 1 through 11, um, and awarded a sabbatical from the undergraduate school from Northwest. But it was a teaching-heavy environment, and I was having a hard time balancing the teaching load and the writing. And so at that time, um, and I had applied to uh a position at Regent University in Virginia Beach a few years before then. Um anyway, they had they had had to postpone the the uh hiring and then and then they reached back out to me and um went through the went through the process with them. Um and it was a reduction in teaching load, and then um and they they recognized your scholarly pursuits, the academic pursuits in a little more fulsome way in the in the uh contract. And so we decided to move. Um relocated the family. At that point, we're six, so we'd have three three kids in Seattle. So we moved from Seattle to South Southeastern Virginia.

Joel Lawrence 30:34

That's a big move.

Brad Embry 30:36

It was a big move, yeah. It was a really big move. And um I taught there in the Divinity program uh for another, I think it was around seven years. Uh tenure there.

Joel Lawrence 30:48

Yeah. And and that was uh a good experience for you there at Regent?

Brad Embry 30:57

Uh it was a mixed experience. They they made a shift to um a fully online uh sport minute, which I didn't quite I didn't quite resonate with. I had some great colleagues, some wonderful students. Um yeah, but it was really uh and there was a it was kind of a pivotal time in my life where I think, you know, some of those questions that have been dangling out there as to, you know, what you asked early on is well, you know, why were you doing this or what was this for? Kind of became more acute for me, um, especially in relationship to the academy and some of the writing that I wanted to do. Uh I found myself increasingly drawn to serving the church more directly uh with my work. Um and um I found it uh I found myself not I mean sort of increasingly ill sort of fitted to the academy. And so um, and a probably a little bit of burnout. Um again that the environment at Regent had become teaching heavy again. Um and uh so I yeah, we made a decision to to shift as a family and move away from that and pursue vocational ministry more more full-time. And one of the ways that we did that was to move to to Wisconsin, where I'm I found my way on staff at a local Anglican church.

Joel Lawrence 32:25

So Yeah, so so let's hear that story. How did how did you get from from Virginia to why Wisconsin? What what took you to Wisconsin? What took you to the the the setting that you're in now in an ang in a an Anglican church? And yeah, just love to hear that story.

Brad Embry 32:44

I have a lot of people who ask me that, and even though I've told it to them, they still ask me again. I don't know what happened. So um yeah, I think that the I think there's just a season uh there was a moment in Virginia or several moments in Virginia where we realized that um to move towards ordained ministry. So uh sorry, I should backtrack. Uh as I was ending my time at Northwest, uh I'd become increasingly drawn to a more liturgical and sacramental form of worship. It was a little challenging to pursue that at that time for me because in order to teach in the College of Ministry at Northwest, you had to hold credentials with the assemblies of God, and they asked you to, you know, to worship at a local assemblies of God church, all which all of which makes sense. But I had I had sort of found myself being drawn towards sacramental and and liturgical forms of worship, but primarily through my teaching and my reading uh of the Old Testament and kind of looking at for myself personally, like the four like if I was to practice this faith, uh what did that what did that what ought that to actually look like? And increasingly for me that was through a sacramental and liturgical form and iteration. And so um when when I left the Northwest and we moved to Regent, Regent didn't have a a specific denominational requirement for you. They just asked that you be part of a local congregation. So I was ready at that point, and we had we had talked, we had kind of come into some relationships with a local Anglican church when we were still in Seattle, had gotten to know their rector, uh, he was a great influence uh and an important friend during that season for me. So when we moved to Virginia, we immediately started worshiping at a local Anglican church, and all the things that I thought that it, you know, would sort of satisfy for me, it did. Uh, and so it felt like the right place. Um, and at that point, I I really liked, I really was liked is not the right way. I felt as though it was key for me to, in order to do my work well, I wanted to be formally uh in contact confessionally and and in an ordained capacity with the local church. I wanted my work to be situated within the church through that uh that lens. And so we sought ordination. Um there were some factors that uh I started the process with the church there. Uh some fac some factors caused me to sort of pull out of the process, um, but it remained a desire to to be ordained. Um so anyway, all of that then is once I decided to leave the academy, uh we felt like our time in Virginia had sort of moved towards uh um sort of had stagnated. Um and we moved to Wisconsin. I actually attended Nishoda House for a year, Nishotha's Theological Seminary here. Um and uh the idea part of the idea was that it put me in a place to just be a little more connected to the wider Anglican um community uh in North America and abroad. Um and it's done that. Um and to see you know where the Lord might be leading us to continue pursuing this this ministerial track. So and that and that landed us, we we were starting worshiping at a local Anglican church here called St.

Joel Lawrence 36:13

Michael's, and so you were worship you were worshiping there while you were at Neshoda House?

Brad Embry 36:20

That's correct, yeah. Okay, yeah. That's where we that's where we celebrated on the weekends. Um and I don't even remember exactly how it happened. I think it was as simple as the rector just came up to me and said, Hey, would you like to work here?

Joel Lawrence 36:34

And so I that's that's good. That's nice.

Brad Embry 36:36

Yeah, so I ended up taking a part-time position on my I have a title as Pastor, which you know is not overly common, I don't say. I mean, it's common to call priests pastors in the Anglican church, but if you're not ordained, so I sit in the sort of limbo in a way. But um, but it's been great, it's a lovely community. Um I learned a lot in the show house too. Uh that was a great experience. It was a part I didn't even finish uh my program though. Um we ended up getting job offers and I just ended up working too much to town the full residential experience. So um, so yeah, that's where we are now. So I'm a little more full-time. Um as I say, I'm moving towards ordination. I think you you know, you and I share privately. I've just finished my exams, and so hopefully this year be an ordination to the diaconate and continue my work. Uh one of the other pieces to this is that I I've started to come back around now. So there's been sort of hiatus from writing. I've got all these ideas and projects, but um being part of the CPT has been a real sort of like reinvigoration of a desire to reconnect with some of those writing projects. Um it's been a really supportive group and I really really appreciated it. So yeah, that's great.

Joel Lawrence 37:57

So um I would imagine there might be some folks listening who have been maybe in the academy and for a variety of reasons are are shifting out of the academy. I I'd just be curious for you to share um kind of words of encouragement, words of of advice, uh, words of wisdom around around following that that calling into the church. And you know, I I I kind of the some subtext here is there may be some folks who don't themselves want to move out of the academy, but the nature of academic theology these days, it's just more and more uh it's happening that folks are are needing to step out. And just as one who's been through that process and been kind of long-term in the academy, like you have been, and now at this stage of your life kind of adopted this new sense of vocation and calling.

Brad Embry 39:06

Oh man. Yeah, I mean um it's not um I mean it's not necessarily an easy thing to do, so I wouldn't sugarcoat it. Um but I do think it's I do think it's important uh for people to recognize, especially those who feel this sort of draw to it, uh, or maybe some dissatisfaction with like the academy and its end goals. Is it is it, you know, if it's just about you know sharing sharing data, um, if there's not a way, you know, that was my experience as it just became more about sharing. And I was in a Christian context.

Joel Lawrence 39:40

Yeah.

Brad Embry 39:40

So I was doing pastoral ministry kind of in almost in an ad hoc way within my courses. Um I I I think that it's it's challenging, but I feel increasingly confident in saying that the I think the future for at least like some portions of the way in which historically theological programs have conducted what they've aimed to do, I think the future increasingly is within the church for this store of education. Um and partly because the church has these, uh, you know, broadly speaking, has an aim to cultivate the in the in the inner life and the spiritual life. And so the you know, the academic activities that we take on are meant to cultivate that that life within people, God's life within us in worship and prayer. And um so um I mean I think what just so I'd say if I was to say something to people that are kind of considering this, is that there's a number of us who are. And I think what is um what is sort of a slow movement towards that, and the problem there is that there aren't really like in there aren't a lot of structures that support that. So there's not a lot of landing place. There, you know, churches, there aren't a lot of churches that can do like a scholar in residence, some can. Um, but I think as more and more um people who are trained in the ways that we're trained become and grow dissatisfied with some parts of what the academy is doing, I think that will I I'm hopeful that the church will s will start to grow and expand and say, well, we need to we need to re-engage with this uh stewardship of this, you know, the life of my uh the mind sort of seeking its place within um the life of faith and in service to it. So I'm hopeful that as we as people you know take, you know, and it's a courageous thing to do for a lot of because it's it's hard to get an academic job. Yeah. If you step out, and I know this firsthand, it's almost impossible to step back in.

Joel Lawrence 41:51

Right.

Brad Embry 41:51

And I have I definitely have my days of regret in having done it. Um but I do think the more that we do this and and we bu build these kind of like these cooperative zones where we work together like the CBT is doing, yeah, which is I think is such a vital activity. I think we'll increasingly find that there are places where the church churches, individual churches or or bodies of churches will step in and say, Yeah, we want to be we want to be the stewards of that ongoing, you know, life uh of faith. And so yeah.

Joel Lawrence 42:25

Yeah, that's good. We talk about it around kind of rebuilding the the church as the patron of theological education, right? For for much of church history, the church the church was the patron of theological education. And then for the last few hundred years the academy became the patron, and that shifted some of the goals of theological education and some of the ends of theological education. And I think these, I like how you put that, these cooperative structures were now kind of rebuilding a patronage system where where the the local church and partnership of churches and partnership of pastor theologians are saying, no, the the theological education is a function of the church. And and the academy plays a role in that, but it has to be under this ecclesial function. And and I I think that's one of the exciting things about what what's happening these days is that kind of reclaiming of theological education into the life of the church. And uh I think that's such an important thing to to to uh grasp onto in this moment of challenge and and really seize that opportunity.

Brad Embry 43:43

Yeah. And the other side to that, which is I don't think it's mentioned it quite as much, is it would be something of a call to churches. Um which is to s which it's to this end, is that for in order for somebody to do in order for someone who's academically you know trained and minded for someone to do for someone to do that work well, they they do need some time of leisure. They and I don't mean in the sense where they go recreate on a beach, although that's important as well. But what I mean is that they do need that there has to be a commitment on the church's part to the individual to give them time to like you know to to tool up, so to speak, uh and and and bring their bring their learning to bear in a h in a healthy way. Um I say this as a you know kind of like it's somewhat experiential with with pastors who who do writes and do lead worship, and I've I've been around some super talented people that are able to do a whole host of things. Um but there is a real danger and risk of burnout, and what churches have to be aware of and cultivate is a sort of a Sabbath model where there's there's due attention and priority given to rest and leisure and space for people to kind of cultivate these ideas and build them out and do them well. And I don't think I think a lot of times on the on the the way this is pitched is that the academic has to make these sacrifices, and that's true. I think we do need to have people who are willing to say, okay, I'm willing to step away from this paid position um and to go into into this sort of frontier zone. But hopefully the churches are also saying, yeah, we we want to recognize this as well. And I think that's one of the lovely things about what CPT does is that you try to connect to churches that are interested in this very thing. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 45:41

Well, Brad, it's been great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for sharing your story and uh grateful to have you as part of the CPT.

Brad Embry 45:50

My pleasure, Jules. Thanks so much.

Zach Wagner 45:54

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about this DPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Twitter. This show is produced by Steph Korch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Steph Free Corps. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.