BONUS | Brad Embry on Books and Preaching

In this short bonus interview, Brad Embry reflects on how Rowan Williams’ Passions of the Soul sharpened his vision for integrating theology, spiritual formation, and pastoral ministry. 

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Transcript

Joel Lawrence 0:01

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Pastor Theologian podcast. My name is Joel Lawrence, and I serve as the president of the CPT. And I am here with Brad Embry, who is uh one of our CPT fellows. And we've just recorded a conversation uh about his his life and uh career path and how God has been at work through that. And now we wanted to keep him on here for a uh bonus podcast. We've been doing these um resources that have helped people uh as they've been formed as preachers, as they've been formed as pastors. So uh, Brad, thanks for hopping back on and uh joining me for this conversation.

Brad Embry 0:41

My pleasure, Joel. Yep, glad to be here.

Joel Lawrence 0:44

So tell us about a resource that has been important to you and and why has that resource been important to you?

Brad Embry 0:54

Yeah, uh when you guys sent me the prompt, I mean I probably there's I mean, it's like everybody, there's a number of things that we're worked through and are working through that we can go back to. But one that has stood out to me of late, um, I read uh Rowan Williams' book called Passions of the Soul. Um and I found it really helpful. I I read it actually for my own sort of personal, you know, piety. Um but I found that there was a there was there are a number of points, touch points in there that as I was starting to, you know, ramp up my own work um pastorally, that I thought, oh, those are really nice takeaways, you know, for like how I would approach just ministry. What are the like what are the aims of uh you know what I'm doing today? And and and the lovely thing about it is that I found that these like questions of the you know, the passions of the soul and how that relates to desire and how it informs just how you live your life actually has a lot to do with a whole host of pastoral activities. Whether it's your own personal piety, which we are called as pastors to you know to be to live a holy life, a holy and godly life, to just like how you approach different people, different parishioners or members of your congregation, uh, to your aims and interests and goals uh for preaching. Like what is the North Star that you're you know you're trying to like draw people to uh in your in the pulpit? Um so yeah, that's that's the resource.

Joel Lawrence 2:34

So I I haven't I haven't read this one. Um is it particularly written for pastors, or is it more generally written, but you have found kind of this this richness in helping you think about pastoral ministry?

Brad Embry 2:50

The latter. Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 2:51

I don't think that he's you know I think he's a pastor's pastor, so he's the archbishop, was the archbishop, so he's always thinking ministry.

Brad Embry 3:00

But yeah. So but he writes, yeah, you uh you know him, I think you know him probably well enough as he writes very widely, so it's yeah, yeah. Uh all over the place in a good way.

Joel Lawrence 3:11

Um so as we as we um folks, if you haven't listened to the main interview uh with Brad, I encourage you to do that. But but one of the things we talk about there is, you know, you were in that you were in the academic world for quite a long time before a little bit a little bit later in life making the shift to full-time pastoral ministry. Uh have there been things particular in the book that you would say have have really been helpful for you in that transition period and and coming to understand your your calling in a in in this new way?

Brad Embry 3:45

Yes. I think um it's like any good book that you read, I think sometimes what it does more than anything is not necessarily introduce like a new data set to your mind. But rather it takes things that are constantly like circling around in a stew, and it just sort of draws them into a clarity or into a focus, and you can kind of say, Oh, yeah, that's that's the way I that's what I've been thinking about. I just I couldn't quite put it that way. And I think this is one such way where um it it helps one of the things like in a general way that it helped me to kind of you know to consider in a sharper in sharper focus was that it um my academic work was I always wanted it to be attuned to developing a healthy spiritual life for people. I found that in the academy to to do that, there were times where that pathway was was a little like more easily channeled, you could see it, but a lot of times I felt, and this again is autobiographical, but I felt like that pathway from what I was teaching, like the data sort of set that I was teaching, that was oftentimes conceived of as a stopping point in a class. Like you just you're just sort of giving this information and then it's there for people. You might make some comments on the side that sort of link it to their you know to their lives, but there wasn't this sort of channel towards something. And when I was reading William's work on Passions of Soul, I realized like that's what I really was always after. Like I wanted this I wanted this, uh, you know, what I was teaching on Exodus or whatever, I wanted that to link up to people's sense of mercy. Like how do they how do they live a life filled with mercy? How do they live a life that is filled with a sense of like um uh of of a of a dispassionate sort of or a detachment from these things that so often beset us, whether it's uh attraction to something that's you know material and success, and that's the thing I want to go for, or I'm disgusted with this, or I don't want to have that. How do how do I live this life in basically what is the love of God? You know, love for us, which is it doesn't respect us in a certain direction, it just is there. So anyway, it was a it was a lovely thing. It's like, oh yeah, that's that's what I've been teaching. That's what I've been trying to teach for. Um and it and the nice thing about these resources, especially I think uh again, speaking for myself, as I was maturing, I felt more comfortable and confident in saying that that actually is something that I should integrate into my teaching on Exodus. Whereas my training had suggested to me that this is this is like theology and pastoral work, and you're when you teach Exodus, you teach in these modes. Those two things don't relate. If they do relate, you do that over supper or whatever in your own sort of private place. Whereas this has been a this has been a lovely sort of place for me to sit with, well, actually, no, those things are actually integrated, and that's to me what is the real call that that the CPT sort of puts out to people is to say, yeah, these people who operate as theologians and people who operate as pastors are actually functionally, if it's healthier, doing the same thing. Uh or they're doing those things together. And so, yeah, it's been it was a great it was a great book. And of course you can't argue with this with this scholarship. I mean, it's not you may not like it, and you may not like some of his conclusions, but the head's there for sure.

Joel Lawrence 7:29

Um, for sure, oh for sure, yeah. Yeah, no, that that's great. And in uh it it just as you were talking, I was thinking about there are great books, and then there are great books that hit us just at the right moment, right? Where it's like, okay, this book, the stuff that's been churning in me, this is helping me put my finger on it. And you know, I can think of a handful of times in my own in my own journey looking back and thinking about a a particular book that that at the at a particular time just was able to draw some things out of me that were latent that I was trying to put together, and this really helped me put it together. So it's uh a lovely experience when that happens.

Brad Embry 8:17

It is. He's got this great sort of treatment of um the idea of boredom in relationship to asidia or listlessness. So that that's an unhealthy sort of spiritual like uh thing that creeps into people's spiritual lives is listlessness, like it doesn't really matter. But alongside that, there's this there's this competing desire for people to see something that's constantly new and invigorating and like explosive and dynamic. Uh because we conceive of the spiritual life along those terms. I mean, spiritual life when it invades, it like reshapes. And there's of course lots of language in the Bible that suggests that that's the case, and I'm certain, I'm sure that that you know happens. I think one of the lovely things that Woods kind of gets at is that, well, actually there's there's moments of our lives, our spiritual lives, they're really just boring. They're just getting up and attending to the same things uh every day. Um but that doesn't mean like that's the that's the opposite. Like he separates that sort of sense, like listlessness is a different type of like uh inatten it's an inattention to detail, whereas the the the spiritual boredom of just routine is actually a a very strong attention to these details. And it's within that then that I think a lot of this like this the vigor of our tradition, whether it's scripture or the history of Christianity or the rise of faith can really become you know vital for us because we can see in these past exemplars, you know, they did the same thing. They just attended to their daily faith.

Joel Lawrence 9:54

Uh I it that that reminds me of what they they say about commercial pilots, right? That commercial piloting is a lot of just boredom and routine marked by moments of sheer terror. And and you don't really want your your flying life to be constantly marked by by the adrenaline. Like the boredom is a good part of that, right? Just you just crank it away. So so maybe, you know, if if if we don't have some moments of terror excitement in our Christian life, maybe we're not doing it right. But if that's all we're looking for, then that may not be the healthiest sign.

Brad Embry 10:27

Yeah, that's a that's a good way of putting it. Uh that's nice. Yeah, and it was uh so yeah, it's really it's really struck me as a very helpful resource. And and again, I said the added bonus is that it was really just good for me in my own personal life.

Joel Lawrence 10:41

Yeah, good. Well, thanks for sharing that resource with us, Brad. Appreciate it. And again, grateful to have you as part of the CPT. Blessings on your ministry.

Brad Embry 10:49

My pleasure, Joel. Thanks so much.

Zach Wagner 10:52

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Twitter. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Frequorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.