Rediscovering Pastoral and Church Identity | Ryan Jackson

When everything around a church is changing, how can it rediscover who God has called it to be? 

In this episode we welcome Rev. Dr. Ryan Jackson, Senior Pastor of the Capital Church near Raleigh, North Carolina, to talk about his experience in the CPT's first Church Identity Cohort.

Ryan reflects on 17 years of ministry through seasons of change, staff transitions, and post-pandemic challenges that prompted his church to revisit foundational questions of identity and mission. We discuss the connection between pastoral and ecclesial identity, the role of theological reflection in church life, and the importance of forming leaders who can faithfully guide congregations into the future.

We also explore the value of mentoring, cross-denominational dialogue, and collaborative discernment as churches seek a deeper understanding of who God has called them to be.

Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or ministry team member, this episode offers practical encouragement for leading with clarity, conviction, and a strong sense of church identity.

Join us at the CPT Conference

Transcript

Ryan Jackson 0:00

And I made the statement in the in the conversation with him. I just I just said I just don't think, you know, I just don't think I'm the leader these people need. And um he very wisely said, well, you're not. And then he added, but you can become the leader that they need.

Zach Wagner 0:23

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And uh you just finished a conversation with Dr. Ryan Jackson, the Right Reverend Dr. Ryan Jackson, who has been a CPT fellow going back to the Cambridge days.

Joel Lawrence 0:52

Were you and Ryan at Cambridge together? We were, yeah. So so he was one of the original crew. The OGs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Zach Wagner 1:02

Yeah. So uh we just uh had Ryan on to share a little bit about his experience in a new CPT program that we ran for the first time this past year. Why don't you share a little bit about what this program was, Joel?

Joel Lawrence 1:23

Yeah, so it's it's called a church identity cohort. And the vision of these is that um we've we started the CPT kind of to engage the pastoral identity crisis. And what we've learned over the years is that the pastoral identity crisis is deeply caught up in an ecclesial identity crisis. Pastors don't know what it means to be pastors because the church doesn't know what it means to be the church. And so through a Lilly endowment grant that we received called the Thriving Congregations Initiative, we've started this program, which gives the opportunity for pastors and a couple of folks from their staff to be involved in a dialogue around ecclesial identity, what it means to be the church. So kind of more broadly theologically doing some of that thinking, but then also, okay, well, what does this look like on the ground then for us as a church to live out our identity, right? There's there's lots of consultants that come in and they can do like church growth strategies and they can do organizational leadership strategies. That's all great. But what churches really need at the end of the day, in light of all of that, is a clear identity of who they are and how that then shapes the way that they are engaging the community around them. And so that's what this program was. And Ryan explains it a little bit more in the conversation. But we had three churches go through it this year. It's been fantastic. And we want to share this conversation to encourage people to reach out to the CPT. You can go to our website at pastertheologians.com and click on the Church Identity Cohort and uh consider becoming a part of this for next year. We'll be forming a cohort in the fall, and we'd love to have folks involved.

Zach Wagner 3:08

Great. All right. Well, let's get right into the conversation with Ryan Jackson.

Joel Lawrence 3:15

Uh, Ryan, it's great to have you back on the podcast. It's good to be back. Yeah, Ryan was with us on a Becoming a Pastor Theologian podcast not too long ago, but we wanted to have him back for a conversation about the church identity cohort, the new program that the CPT has been running this year, and Ryan's church has been participating in that. So we'll we'll dive into that in a second. I'll give a little bit more background. But first, Ryan, just remind folks uh uh who you are, where you are, your ministry, context, all that good stuff.

Ryan Jackson 3:49

Yeah, great to be with you, Joel. Always good to chat. Um, and you, Zach as well. Um, I'm Ryan Jackson, uh senior pastor of the Capitol Church, just outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. Uh, and uh came to the CPT kind of uh uh along with uh a lot of you guys, sort of fresh out of our graduate work in Cambridge, and just uh feeling this burden uh to do the the work of the church with this uh with this dual calling that we all sense of a conversation in two different worlds and with the academy and with the church. And so um it's been uh it's been very interesting. I've been in this church for 17 years, which has been really wild because it uh it doesn't feel like I've pastored one church for 17 years. It feels like I've pastored like eight different churches over 17 years. And I think some of my people might even say I've pastored you know one church for 117 years, and maybe what it feels like to them. I don't know. But anyway, it's been an interesting ride, and it's been great to see the spirit at work in this place.

Joel Lawrence 4:54

Yeah. Yeah, and it was fun. We'll talk a little bit about the program in a second, but Ryan, you you and a couple of your staff were up in Chicago for our retreat, and it's just great to get to know them a little bit more and hear more about what's going on at the church. So just a little bit of a bit of background for for folks who are listening on the the church identity cohort. This is a program that is uh help funded by a generous grant from the Lilly Endowment, a thriving congregations grant that we have received very gratefully. And and the idea here was as we were, as we've been doing this pastor theologian project. One of the things that has been apparent to us really over the years, but it's become even more apparent the last few years, is the pastor theologian project is an identity project, but it's it's deeply caught up with, contained by, connected to a church, an ecclesial identity uh project, right? That that one of some of the challenges for the American pastor in understanding our identity is also caught up in challenges of what is our ecclesial identity? What does it mean to be the church? And so as we were developing this program, we thought it would be a great opportunity to to kind of dig in, keeping our focus on the pastor theologian, but dig into this ecclesiology side of things. And so we developed a program that that helps churches um and church staffs walk through uh some deep reflection on on the the identity of the church more generally, but then more specifically kind of pressing identity issues, pressing opportunities for the local church. And um so we've had three churches going through the project this year. And uh Ryan uh raised his hand and said, I'd like to do this. And so it's been fun to have have the Capitol Church be a part of it. So so Ryan, with with that background, uh tell us a little bit about what intrigued you. Uh what what was it about the church identity uh cohort that that you were were inclined to explore and then ultimately come on come on board and and do the process?

Ryan Jackson 7:05

Yeah, thanks, Joel. Um several things. Uh first of all, I think it's the stage of life where our church is at the moment. Uh like a lot of churches, we had some very, very difficult years in COVID and post-COVID. And you know, I think we all can kind of look back to the pre-COVID world with some longings and and also some gratefulness that, you know, things uh have shifted in positive ways too. Uh but it did create some difficult time for us and uh just in our community, just kind of a perfect storm of things coming together in our community. And and so it it what it created was a uh a new opportunity to rethink foundational things and foundational truths. As a pastor theologian, uh I've been keenly interested in these issues all 17 years of my stay here. And and so I've been talking about these things all along, and and I've been trying to lead uh uh in in this way of thinking for a long, long time. But the the congregation has shifted, like the the it's a different world. And I just find that every time you cross a new threshold culturally and a new threshold societally, you kind of need to rethink the boundary markers. And so we were we were uh in one of those phases uh uh where it was just a great time for us in our in our local societal culture, but also our just local church culture, that it was just a great time to rethink some of those foundational DNA issues of the church. I mean, just for one thing, we I think it was a year before last I did uh we we had about 34 funerals, I think it was the year before last. So like just think of what that does to a community when when that many families are impacted by people who are you know transitioning into the next life. And so that that that creates just a different, just a different constituency of the congregation. So um I we our church is uh has a lot of family and um uh a lot of heritage as far as that kind of thing is concerned. So a lot of the the thinking about what the church is and the core of the church and the foundation of the church has kind of come through the bloodstream in that in those ways. And I think that almost always needs regrounding and uh readdressing and reconstituting with you know real real scriptural foundation and some healthy, really good things from all that, but also it presents just this continual need, like in in in the rest of the church as well, and other types of churches, to kind of come back to the to the foundation stone, as it were. And I think that that's one of the things. And another thing was just you know, in in the midst of all that transformation, just a kind of a lot, a lot of staff turnover within the past year, and that was uh that was difficult, but also really helpful in the end because just God realigning people to be where they needed to be and realigning for us what we needed. And you guys met uh Isaac and Becky McCullough, our uh two new staff members at some of the greatest young people I've ever met, just on fire for God and and freshly married, freshly graduated, but hungry for the things of the Lord, and just really, really interested in in sinking their teeth into these kind of you know core types of questions, which provides just a really healthy environment for us to be able to explore those things. So all of that really presented itself well for us. And then you guys were kind of rolling this out right in the middle of all that, and it just it just really seemed to be something that would be really helpful for us, and it has proven to be so.

Joel Lawrence 10:59

So I I'd love to um talk a little bit more about that staff piece of this because I think this is one of the opportunities that the the identity cohort can help provide. Um, you know, you as you said, you kind of had some staff turnover, you got this fantastic young couple in your church now, leading in your church. Um can you talk about from a senior pastor's perspective, like the opportunity this has opened up for you with with mentoring a young staff, with mentoring uh these folks, and and also providing theological leadership for them. I'd just love to hear about maybe how the program has helped you or or or given you some pathways for doing that.

Speaker 2 11:42

Yeah, thanks. That's a that's a really great question. Um I had a mentor some time ago I was whining to about my uh apparent lack of results in the ministry I was doing, and frustration with lack of traction and a lot of the projects I had going, and uh some annoyance with uh the way things were going for me personally, and how things how things seemed to be turning out in ways that I didn't want them to turn out. And I was kind of whining about those things to a one of my mentors, and and I made the statement uh in the in the conversation with him, I just you know, I just said, um, you know, I just I just don't think, you know, I just don't think I'm the leader these people need. And uh and he very wisely said, Well, you're not. And then he added, but you can become the leader that they need. Which I found really, really, it was a really helpful kind of one of those uh loving uh loving corrections, you know, from somebody who's uh you know, sort of older brother in the faith.

Joel Lawrence 12:46

And it was really heard has heard people do this whining multiple times.

Ryan Jackson 12:57

Well, and so I just kind of you know just started sort of thinking, okay, well, how how do I how do I then become that? How do how do I how do I then do that? And I think that that process has been really, really helpful because I I don't know, especially for me, I I always, especially earlier on in ministry, I always had this kind of idea that I said something to the church, and after I said it to them, they should just get, they should get it. And it was really frustrating that I I said this, I preached this before, I preached this seven years ago. You should understand this, you know. After all, I said it in a sermon, and and and how can you not know this? Because I said this seven years ago.

unknown 13:37

Yeah.

Ryan Jackson 13:37

Um, and so uh and and so it's just this idea that you know, when I'm really sick of hearing myself say it, it's just really starting to scratch the surface of people's consciousness, you know. And so um, so just first of all, for me, just this idea that, you know, I I need personally, not just the church needs, not just my staff needs, not just uh our culture needs, I need a return to these fundamental things and rethink to rethink these things for myself and my own role in them. And and so kind of coming to uh the place where we are, you know, sort of uh having the experience of the church as it has been over these these you know these this long, long stretch. And lots of guys have been in it much longer than that, but that's a pretty long stretch for a single church.

Joel Lawrence 14:28

Yeah.

Ryan Jackson 14:29

And then having these new staff guys come in and and realizing that, you know what, I I my the greatest privilege that God is giving me right now in this ministry is the privilege of of getting to help form these amazing young people who are uh who whom God has sent as a gift to this church and the future of this church. And so it really, so the staff issue for me became about like, okay, I I want to look at this next season as uh investing as much into them as I possibly can and empowering and equipping them as much as I possibly can and sharing the things that God has given me as much as I possibly can. And so that kind of just I think I think it was really a great offering in what uh in what the IP was trying to do because uh it just gives us a mechanism for doing that. So that that staff element was was really important, and and I don't know that it would have um yeah, I don't know. I I think that the fact that we we had this uh this kind of basically a new slate on the staff and these new guys coming in uh to work together, it just it really provided a great structural change uh so that you know we could really focus on some new things together. Although you know it would be necessary, but uh, you know, to have you know to have a staff turnover to do it. But I but I do think in our case it it proved helpful. But even without that, there are many others who've been here a long time and lots of people who are still in the church and have been here a long time. So the the trick there is, you know, for me personally to I don't want to say reinvent myself, but figure out a way to grow personally, to become something that uh to to to better embody some things that I believe in, that I have embodied well, to better communicate some things that I am strongly convicted of that that I need to figure out how to communicate better, and to kind of assemble this team that can help me implement those things in this new culture. So uh all of those things are at play in that question, I think.

Joel Lawrence 16:36

Aaron Powell A question I could imagine someone listening to this uh pastor who's pretty busy, um, has education, maybe maybe might think, well, I know ecclesiology, I know how to kind of do ecclesiology. Uh I could just do this on my own. And I'm sure many could, but I think we designed this in a way to help give some scaffolding to maybe some some structure that that that might be harder to do just on on one's own. I would just be curious to you to reflect on that, Ryan, because obviously like we're not teaching you ecclesiology. We're not we're not teaching you theology. But I think what we've tried to do is create a context in which some some further thinking could have. Could you just talk to us a little bit about the process and how it's how it's helped you, how it's been been helpful for you to get after some things that may have been challenging if you hadn't gone through the process?

Ryan Jackson 17:38

Yeah, well, first of all, actually you have taught me a lot, and I've learned a lot from the whole process because I think we learn in proximity. And so I I'm I'm very grateful for that. And one of the things I value about our fellowship more broadly is the diversity in the fellowship. And we all come at this from different streams of tradition and different families of faith. And uh uh and so and I I find it very helpful to uh to kind of be reminded of of that kind of diversity in the body of Christ, because no one metaphor is adequate for the church, and yet each of our traditions fixates on a constellation of metaphors that becomes important for us, and then it's easy to let the other metaphors that are also important for the church to kind of cycle out of orbit or to at least go and to kind of extend it out of orbit. Uh so I think that's I think that's important. I I do think that, you know, obviously, you know, um most pastors will be the most I mean I mean I think it's probably safe to say that most in most cases, pastors will likely be the most educated theologically in their congregational context. Most likely, in most cases. I feel like that's a fair statement. You can correct that if you feel otherwise.

Joel Lawrence 18:57

Well, I'll tell you, in my congregation, I had a guy who did a doctorate with Emile Brunner and studied under Carl Barth. Oh, so no hook for you then. So not for me. But I but I I I think generally you're right. I think as a rule, yes.

Ryan Jackson 19:10

Yeah. But even even still, even with that, like that's um that's that's nine miles deep and maybe you know an inch wide or something, right? Yeah, yeah. So like you had a lot of you know theological training and preparation that that would have been lost on a PhD. Still. Yeah, uh this this idea that um the the pastor comes with certain experiences, but really our job, in in my view, is not just to it's not just sort of conveying information. It's building a community around the direction God is leading this church. I mean, there's part of that.

Joel Lawrence 19:48

It's good.

Ryan Jackson 19:49

So it would have actually been a lot simpler if if I had just you know spent a few afternoons banging out some documents and you know, hopped on a podcast with you guys in Chicago or whatever, and and and thanked the Lily Foundation for a nice lunch or what you know, something, whatever. But yeah, but it really I I think the and I actually wish I could have, I wish I could have even brought more people from our con the opportunity was there. It just didn't work out in our context for scheduling purposes and other things. But I really wish I could have included more people because, you know, I I just think after a while, it's not that the pastor's not saying it, and it's not the pastor's not saying it, even maybe not saying it well, we can always enhance those things, but I just think sometimes just another voice is really, really important. And sometimes a chorus of voices has power that a single voice doesn't have, even if those voices are actually speaking or singing in unity. It just has a power when it's together. And I think that is really uh I think that was really important in what we've already done. But as the next step of what we're trying to do, we're we're developing, okay, how are we gonna implement this into the actual culture of the church? Like we don't want it to be a statement on the wall. We want it to, you know, make it down the hall, as they say. We want it to we want it to get into the into the well. We want it to get into the stream. We want people to drink this, and and and so that's gonna require more than just me talking about it or saying it or whatever. That that's a kind of trickle effect, but uh the the real fire hose is when we can get a lot of people kind of plugged in, and and so we're talking about bringing I've I've already have about maybe 14 or so people reading uh uh uh just the material that we've kind of focused on together. And so we we got some reading communities going on out of that. We'll we'll pull together some discussion groups. So we're we're kind of reduplicating some of those conversations that we had uh together, and we'll kind of reduce. Duplicate them internally in our church, but but because Isaac and Becky and Doug were there all together, we we do have these voices that have all kind of drunk from the same well and kind of bring all this, you know, are already already sharing some similar terminology and that sort of thing. So yeah.

Joel Lawrence 22:19

You you mentioned Doug, uh who uh is your mentor in the process. One of the the parts of this is each church is assigned a mentor who can can be a sounding board, can be a conversation partner. Um talk to us a little bit about how that has played out, kind of your experience with with, you've known Doug a long time. He's been uh a leader in your life. Uh so that's fun to see this, also him connect to this. But tell us about that side of the things, how your relationship with the mentor and how that served your church.

Ryan Jackson 22:52

Uh yeah, I think that's really important, especially in the denominational context where having a denominational official that that wouldn't always work, but in Doug's case, he he also kind of has a foot in the academy and has had for many years. So uh he he kind of has the academic chops to be able to handle. Uh and we have several of our leaders that that you know would have the capacity to do that, but I think in a denominational setting, it's really helpful to have your presiding bishop kind of with his stamp of approval and and sort of affirmation on that. So I think for us, Doug's voice has been important to kind of remind us about our home, home base, our our our tradition, and and how this will speak beyond even the church where I'm located. One of our hopes is that this can provide a kind of resource to other Pentecostal and charismatic churches that need to think about some of these issues as well. And these things aren't as maybe as typically discussed in our tradition. And so um uh not that they're ignored, but just not maybe as common a discussion. And so I think especially having Doug in his role as a denominational leader in his role, leading leading the Pentecostal churches of and charismatic churches of North America, all of that gives very, very broad influence so that I I think it kind of just gives permission to people who may not normally be allowed to think down these uh uh channels to really allow themselves to do some thought experiments and some work that they might not normally be engaged in.

Joel Lawrence 24:35

And I would just say how encouraged I was personally by Doug and in the couple days that we had together in Chicago, just at a at a spiritual level, but also at that, I mean, that guy's been around the block a few times. He's been everywhere, man. And and and his kind of feedback on the importance of this project was was just super encouraging. So I I really appreciated that as well. Uh, one other aspect I want to explore here is um, you know, in the retreat, in the gathering, because there were three churches from from different contexts. Uh, you guys in the Pentecostal Charismatic stream, there was an African-American Baptist church that had their senior pastor and a number of uh lay leaders with them, and then a free church out in uh North Dakota, uh, who is also a part of it. So people from different places, different perspectives, different traditions. How how did that that cross-polonization feed the process for you?

Ryan Jackson 25:35

I think it was fantastic, and I think actually, I think we all kind of went away wishing we had more time for that. Like we appreciated that we had time to discuss amongst ourselves the kinds of things we were doing there, but every time we did that, even though we appreciated those moments and certainly saw the sense in providing for those moments, we all felt like we can talk in Raleigh. Let's talk with these other guys while we're all here together, because their experience was just so rich. And and again, I think I go back to my uh comment from before, just like it's just really helpful to all of these churches are organized around different, maybe narrative streams, that they're uh different theological convictions, uh sort of different foundational principles, even though we may share a lot of the same sort of core orthodox theological convictions, there's still other kinds of images that inform how the church is is uh put together and those things. And I think each of those is a kind of glimmer of the the biblical images of the church that we value in different capacities. So to kind of be reminded of that and see that at play as these other churches in their seasons of life are also walking through this, was profoundly helpful. And we all went away wishing, give us more. We would like more of that, really. And we enjoyed the whole thing. But that was, I think, the one part that we were like, oh, please, that this is this, I would say do that a lot more. We all enjoyed that.

Joel Lawrence 27:10

That's yeah, we we got that feedback coming out of it, and I think that was a great learning for us in that is uh, you know, we wanted to give a lot of time to process, but I do there was such a spark in the room as we were all together, and that was really fun to see. So uh, if you're listening now, you'll get even a better experience than Ryan did next year because Ryan's helped us learn how to do this. So you wanted to jump in.

Zach Wagner 27:38

I just wanted to comment on that last point because frankly, I think you know, Joel, you and I and Ryan and the folks who have been participating in our fellows program, we actually rub shoulders in this kind of interdenominational, intertradition space quite a bit. So I I frankly think we're kind of spoiled for it. And what was striking about the time that we spent together for this meeting a few months ago was that there were lots of other congregational leaders in in the church, in the various churches represented that hadn't ever been in a space like that before. Yeah. And I I got the sense from many of them that it was a very encouraging, very dynamic, and very exciting space for them to be hearing from folks who obviously love the Lord, are really committed to the ministry of the gospel from other traditions that are almost like speaking a different dialect than they are. Um, but there was the spirit was present even between and within those differences in a way that I think was really powerful for those folks. Um so if you're uh a you know a pastor and you know you're you kind of engage in dialogue across denominational contexts, or you remember from seminary and you can appreciate reading folks outside your tradition, I a lot of folks you know on your elder board, on your ministry staff, in your congregation may not have experiences like that. And this, it seems to me, is a great opportunity to encourage them as well as expose them to the kind of broader family of faith uh in the evangelical church. So um, yeah, just wanted to re-emphasize that because I think it was one of the one of the coolest things about the program in this first year.

Ryan Jackson 29:32

Yeah, I think that's a great comment, Zach. I I think, you know, I think of like scent blindness. You know, this concept that like if you know that when when you smell something for, you know, like if you have a dog or something, you know, you don't you don't smell the dog, but somebody else comes in your house and they can basically smell the dog or whatever. That kind of thing.

Zach Wagner 29:50

These houses have a smell, and you wonder, does my house have a smell? And I think don't know.

Ryan Jackson 29:54

And the answer is yes. They all do, right? Yeah. So the kind of idea is that like we we are blind to our own scent. We're blind to our you know, to our own space. The last the last being on earth you should ask to describe water as a fish. Like the fish, this is the home environment, right? So it's this idea that like being together, one of the things, I think one of the things that's really valuable about the process is it helps us kind of distinguish between what is what is really the Word of God really saying to us about how we ought to form the church in terms of our our role and responsibility, versus what was handed to us by our tradition or what was handed to us by our denomination, or what's nostalgic in our own local setting or in our own local culture and those things. And every church deals with that reality. And so to kind of to talk with this breadth in the body of Christ, with people out of this breadth in the body, I think it what it does is it helps us to kind of overcome some of that blindness, like, oh, wait a minute, this is just the way we do things in our house. But that that's a little weird. And it smells a little off when you're when you actually realize that that this can be done differently, it can be thought of differently. And this oh oh, this is much healthier and much more robust and much more biblically grounded as opposed to culturally or historically grounded in terms of our small little pond. So I think that to your comment, I think that's spot on and one of the great values of being together.

Joel Lawrence 31:33

So when you s when you realize you smell like a wet dog, you gotta you gotta deal with that, huh? Sour parts, not yours. I mean, you know, right. Uh Ryan, as we as we wind down the conversation again, thanks so much. It's been great to process and and hear your your thoughts on this. Um there's a pastor out there listening to this, and they're they're intrigued, but man, I don't know, it's gonna be time and it's gonna be effort. And um what what final words of encouragement would you give to to uh to call them, to exhort them to at least check out uh the church identity cohort?

Ryan Jackson 32:09

I think uh the greatest athletes in the world still have coaches. So just because you're a great player and you got great skills theologically and pastorally, your game will be improved. Your team will be improved by working with other people who can see things that you don't see, who can encourage you in things that you need encouraging in, uh, who can help expand the maybe things you've already studied and know, but expand ways to communicate that into your setting. And it not only not only encourages you and expands your mind in that, but I think offers you an opportunity to empower that voice among your people and your congregation. So go for it. Highly encouraged.

Joel Lawrence 32:54

Love it. And if you are interested, you can go to our website, pastortheologians.com, click on cohorts, and then click on church identity cohort, and there's some information there. And we'd love to hear from you. Uh, if you are interested, uh we we'd be very happy to uh have a conversation with you further about the church identity cohort. You can reach out to us through the uh through our website. So, Ryan, thanks again, man. Really grateful to for you and and for the work that God's doing in your church, your faithful ministry. Grateful for all that uh all that you're doing, and it's been fun being on this journey with you.

Ryan Jackson 33:32

Thank you, Joel. Great privilege for me. Thanks for the invite.

Zach Wagner 33:36

Thanks, Ryan. God bless. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Creekmore. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.