BONUS | Ryan Jackson on Books and Preaching

In this short bonus interview, Rev. Dr. Ryan shares the influence of books like Haddon Robinson’s Biblical Preaching, Bryan Chapell’s Christ-Centered Preaching, John Stott’s Between Two Worlds, and Tim Keller’s Preaching, highlighting Christ-centered preaching, cultural engagement, and preaching as an encounter with God. Ryan reflects on how his approach has matured over time—from focusing heavily on sermon mechanics to embracing a more conversational, Spirit-led style of communication.

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Transcript

Zach Wagner 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined, as always, by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And we are also privileged to have Ryan Jackson back with us for one of our bonus episodes as we've been recording in recent months. Hey Ryan, good to have you back.

Ryan Jackson 0:21

Hi, Zach. Good to see you. Hi, Joel. Good to see you, Ryan.

Zach Wagner 0:25

Why don't I uh hand it over to you and we'll have a little conversation about preaching?

Joel Lawrence 0:31

Yeah, we just, as you mentioned, Zach, we're recording these kind of bonus episodes the last few uh last couple months around uh resources that have been helpful for preachers. And uh Ryan has been pastoring uh for 17 years now down in Raleigh, North Carolina, and delivered a lot of sermons over those years. Uh and I'm sure there are many resources that have been helpful for you. But uh, Ryan, talk to us about a resource that has been particularly important for you as you think about preaching and shape your preaching ministry.

Ryan Jackson 1:06

Well, thanks, guys. Uh great to talk about this. Preaching's always been a very special uh uh thing for me. Um in fact, I ended up at Gordon Conwell because I loved the ministry of Haddon Robinson. And so I went there and ultimately he became a mentor and a friend. I became his teaching assistant in Isomoletics courses, and uh so uh I've always really, really enjoyed uh preaching and have a sense of real calling around that task for the church. Uh so I you know, obviously Robinson's work there is very influential for me. But so many others as well. I mean, I think of uh Brian Chapel's Christ-centered preaching. Uh I love the way, I love the way uh he he focuses on this fallen condition focus idea. I love that concept. Um I love I love the old classic John Stott's Between Two Worlds, this idea that we're responsible to dive into this ancient text and to both exegete and to communicate into the modern world that we also exegete and and understand in that way. So uh uh really, really helpful. Keller's Keller's book on preaching. Uh I just I love the way Keller uh encourages us to engage the the the narratives that undergird the culture that we're talking about. I think that's really, really important. I think kind of an extension of Stott's idea. So uh these kind of this kind of way of challenging those narratives that direct people's lives and invite people to a gospel-centered narrative. That's big for Keller. I love that, I love that style. Uh of course, as a as a Pentecostal, um, I I've I've taught a lot of classes on preaching, and one of the statements I make about preaching is um that preaching is, and this is not a not a great definition, but it's what it's a descriptive statement, I think. Preaching is a public experience of a private encounter. And that kind of encapsulates uh this kind of Pentecostal element for me. Um that preaching is not just uh information transfer, but uh it invites people into uh sharing in the life of God, this this uh this sanctifying and uh uh this moment of theosis, to put it more broadly in other theological terms. But um so yeah, I think uh in that way preaching kind of becomes a means of grace where where uh where people are invited to encounter God and where God uh uses the preacher to speak into those uh situations and settings. There's actually a book, um there's a book by uh Lee Roy Martin called Toward a Pentecostal Theology of Preaching, which uh uh kind of talks about some of these ideas. And there's a uh a scholar friend of mine named Chris Green, uh, who's written a chapter in that edited volume, uh, and his chapter in there is called Transfiguring Preaching, Proclamation and Theosis. Uh this idea that uh that preaching needs to be understood as participating in God's transforming life, which I think is really an important part of Pentecostal preaching anyway. Uh so those are some sources that have had some real influence on me. Lots of others.

Joel Lawrence 4:25

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm curious. Um, like do you go back to these from time to time? What what's your rhythm with obviously, you know, week by week you're you're digging into the scripture, probably digging into some commentaries. I'd be curious about some of these other more kind of you know preaching framework books. Do you do you go back into them and and remind yourself? What what's your relationship to them over the years?

Ryan Jackson 4:49

I I think I do, yes. I I do return to them. I mean I would not say on a certainly not on a weekly basis. Sunday has a way of repeating itself with amazing regularity. So the next sermon and the next deadline is always kind of breathing down your neck if you're a pastor. Um and so so yeah, I think I think there's always the I don't want to say pressure because it's a real delight. It's the it's the best thing I do all week, but it there's a there's a real you know obligation and urgency about the preparation process. So uh so every week I'm not diving back into those sources or diving back into that stuff. But I would say pretty regularly I'm kind of going back into places that have been meaningful to me through the years that remind me of helpful structural techniques or uh uh helpful supportive ideas for for how to communicate better. Uh and and I think the a big thing for me is I've spent a lot, I've spent a lot of time you know working on the mechanics of sermon building. And what I notice is the longer I became a pastor, those things are all helpful, and I don't repudiate those things at all. I think they're very important. I still teach them when I when I teach classes on homiletics. Uh so those things are very, very important. But what I've noticed in my own ministry over the years is that I I think um my preaching is much less mechanical, uh, which I think is actually much more life-giving to people who receive it than it was. And I I would say I would probably not like letting go of some of the mechanics if I were if I were grading myself the way I would have graded myself early on in the process. But one of the big things Haddon used to talk about was just this was he was big on conversational preaching. And that was kind of his way, one of the ways that he, I think, would talk about not getting caught up in the logistics of the sermon and the rhetoric, but delivering this in such a way that it's a natural flow of real life communication. So it drives me, you know, I do a lot less, you know, alliteration and a lot less, you know, rhetorical flourish and a lot less of the uh of the highly flowery language and stuff like that than I might have early. I do I do some of that from time to time, but I do a lot less of that now on the mechanical side than than I would have done. Uh, but I think it's more effective and I think it it speaks better to people where they are.

Joel Lawrence 7:20

I I'm I'm always interested in how different preachers what they bring with them into the pulpit. Um in light of that, you know, if you're less mechanical, a little more not not free-flowing in the in the kind of loosey-goosey sense, but you know, a little more mature in your preaching. What do you do do you manuscript? Do you bring an outline? What's your what's your process?

Ryan Jackson 7:42

I've never done well with a manuscript uh because when I write out the entire thing, I feel chained to it. And I can't, I I just um I just I don't do well with a manuscript uh because it makes my communication very cardboard and it's just it's not it's not uh it does I don't feel like I really connect with people. Uh even though I feel like the language is more precise, I I still so I may write things like that out, but I don't even always carry that with me. What I carry with me in the pulpit is is an outline and sometimes a sometimes a very thorough outline. Uh, but I will often sort of put a main point that I've studied, and I may have written some things on that I don't bring with me, but I I sort of make a main point and then I make a little note. I always I always put underneath a point like that. I'll I'll put a main point and then I'll put EXP for you know exposite and then ILL for illustrate and then APP for application. So I I just I uh those things are a little more conversational and free-flowing for me because those those points where I'm uh where I'm trying to dive deeper in there, I may have worked out how I'm gonna explain it, or I may have worked out how I'm gonna illustrate it or apply it, but I I find it's kind of like a joke. Like if you if you're if you read a joke, it will never have as much power as if you just stand up and tell a joke.

Joel Lawrence 9:06

And uh even if you get the wording exactly right when you're reading it, it's it loses.

Ryan Jackson 9:13

And I find there's something in the communicative substructure of a sermon that functions similarly.

Joel Lawrence 9:20

That's good. That's good. Good. Well, thanks, Ryan. Really appreciate you uh jumping on with us for this and and sharing your thoughts, your experience as a preacher over the years, and grateful for your ministry. God bless.

Ryan Jackson 9:31

Thanks, brother. Glad to be a part.

Zach Wagner 9:34

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Precorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.