Good News About Self-Care | Ben Espinoza

In this episode of the Pastor Theologians Podcast, we invite CPT fellow and Wesleyan pastor Ben Espinoza to talk about his new book, The Good News About Self-Care: How Nurturing Your Soul, Yourself, and Your Sanity Honors God. Ben shares his journey into ministry, theological formation, and the experiences that shaped his understanding of Christian self-care.

Ben reflects on how ministry pressures, ambition, and the COVID-19 pandemic exposed unhealthy patterns in his own life. He explains that self-care is not a secular pursuit of comfort, but a theological practice rooted in honoring the image of God within us. The conversation explores Sabbath, limits, vocation, and spiritual health, with Ben encouraging pastors and leaders to embrace rest, prayer, boundaries, and accountability so they can faithfully serve others.

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Transcript

Ben Espinoza 0:00

I doubt my grandfather would care about this practice of self-care. He would probably just say, you just gotta toughen up, suck it up, do your job, provide for your family. It sounds a little bit squishy, it sounds kind of fluffy. And when I think about God leading the Israelites out of Egypt and saying, You toiled day after day after day in Egypt. I have led you out of that. You no longer serve those gods. You serve me.

Zach Wagner 0:24

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner, and I am joined, as always, by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And for today's episode, you had a conversation with CPT fellow Benjamin Espinoza, who has been around here at CPT for a while in our network, in our community, and is a Wesleyan pastor. He's currently serving at Avon Wesleyan Church in Avon, New York, upstate New York. And the occasion for the conversation was to talk about Ben's new book, which is entitled The Good News About Self-Care. It's with Nav Press. It's come out just this past April, so uh pretty recent. Tell us a little bit about this conversation with Ben.

Joel Lawrence 1:16

Yeah, great, great conversation. Uh Ben's easy to talk to. He's easy to hang out with. In this book, it's been fun. We've we've seen little iterations of it uh over the last couple of years that he's presented to the CPT. So having it out in the world is fun. And uh, you know, good news about self-care, and he kind of comes right at it of wondering what people think when they hear the words self-care, right? And in our world, that can be very kind of moralistic, therapeutic, deistic kind of talk, that can be just very secular kind of uh treat yourself kind of talk, right? That can be, that can go lots of different directions in our head. But I think what what Ben really gets at in this conversation is the theological angle, which I so appreciate, is it's really about attending to the imago day within us. And as we attend to the imago day within ourselves, then we're properly able to tend to the Imago Day within others. So it's a very theological framework for thinking about self-care, which ultimately isn't just about ourselves. It's not ultimately about kind of you know making sure that we we take some time to chill out or we get a steam bath or whatever. It's about the the presence of God within us that if we don't take care of that, then we're gonna be unhealthy for the way that we live out our life with others. And he's very open about his own experiences that led him to this in some ways that he realized uh kind of through some pretty tough spiritual experiences that he needed to pay attention to some things that were going on that that aren't just merely about, like I said, kind of taking a day off from time to time, but putting it in a theological category that I think was super helpful.

Zach Wagner 3:06

Yeah, uh self-care is one of those buzzwords, isn't it? That there's a very not Christian, shall we say, way to approach it or way that it's talked about or played out. But it also resonates with something deep in the Christian tradition and has theological resonance as well. So I appreciate uh I just even when I first saw the title for this, I was excited to see that it was out in the world. I think it's a great conversation. So uh glad we were able to have Ben on and hope that folks will pick up the book and uh for the next 40 minutes or so we'll find this conversation interesting and helpful. Let's get right into it.

Joel Lawrence 3:49

Hey, Ben. It's great to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you so much, Joel. It's such a pleasure to be here, man. Yeah. So we're um recording this as a uh double recording or dual purpose. We're gonna get to know you a little bit, Ben. We're gonna do a becoming a pastor theologian. But then also we want to talk about your new book that's just come out uh this this spring called Good News About Self-Care: How Nurturing Your Soul, Yourself, and Your Sanity Honors God. So looking forward to the conversation. Why don't we begin? Tell us a little bit about your uh your childhood, growing up, uh your faith journey. Take us into the early days of Ben Espinoza.

Ben Espinoza 4:32

All right, sounds good. Thanks so much, Joel. It's such a pleasure to be here on the podcast with you. So I was born and raised in the Metro Detroit area, born specifically in Dearborn, Michigan, which is one of the one of the most inner-ring suburbs around Detroit, and grew up in and around the Metro Detroit area. Wonderful family, wonderful uh grandparents who knew the Lord, who loved the Lord. Uh, but my my mom and dad didn't really know Jesus until I was about six years old. And what happened was is my uncle Andy was uh he started going to church with his then girlfriend, who was now his wife, and they invited us to church, right? So my very first experience in church was about six years old in a general association of regular Baptist church, a garb church, right? Yeah. So that's how I grew up. So I gave my life to Jesus. I went to Sunday school, and the Sunday school teacher was like, if you don't want to go to hell, then you have to get to know Jesus. I'm like, that's a pretty good bargain. I feel like I feel like I can get on board with this, right? So then I uh didn't want to go to hell. That's right. Okay. Bottom line, I I was good here. But but then I really started to like take my faith super seriously, starting to, even from a young age, starting to really explore the Christian faith in a deep way. I remember when I was in first and second grade, I became sort of a prophet evangelist. So I would tell people, it's like, hey, you need to know Jesus. Uh like my classmates, right? You need to know Jesus, or you're living in sin. I'm gonna pray for you, brother. You know, even as like a seven or eight-year-old. And I got really involved in church too. So I'm a musician. I uh I played violin uh in my church's worship ministry and at our nursing home ministry. I played guitar for worship and I served in different ways and was very, very much involved in youth group. And I was sort of a rough kid, like in elementary school and in middle school. So my parents decided to homeschool me because they thought, well, here you are, you're spending time with all these shady kids that we don't really know much about. They're influencing you in in the wrong ways and not godly ways, so we're gonna homeschool you. So around 14 or 15 years old, I started to become homeschooled, and that's where I really started to read Christian theology like really deeply. Like Aquinas, Calvin. I had a minute where I was loved Martin Luther, Bonhoffer, Bart, and I really started to explore deep theology as early as like 14 or 15 years old. And uh it wasn't until I was 16 years old that I had a real distinct call to ministry. I went to this Christian college camp. It was actually a camp on a Christian college campus, and I was working through some things, thinking vocationally, like what am I gonna do? Am I going to go into ministry? Am I gonna go into politics? Am I gonna go into law or business? I started to chart out my life, and at that point, too, I was very involved in music, getting music lessons, and thinking I could be a musician here. Uh, but I had a lot of fear around the idea of going into ministry because I felt like it was inevitable. Like I was involved in music ministry, I started preaching at the nursing home as well. I spoke to my youth group, and I was involved in some evangelistic ministry too. So I felt like it was inevitable, and I didn't want to give God that win so easily. So God gave me a this was gave me a big wake-up call uh at this Christian college camp. And uh I remember uh just one of the kids that was there uh getting, he got saved during that time, and I remember just weeping in the bathroom after that because of how meaningful it was seeing somebody else give their life to Jesus. I remember I went straight into the bathroom there in that dorm, just like fell down on my face, just weeping before the Lord, saying, I'm done. I am surrendered to you. Whatever you want to do with me, do it. I am yours. So I tell people that I came to know Jesus when I was six, but I I gave my life to Jesus when I was 16 years old. And and after that, the rest is history.

Joel Lawrence 8:45

So I want to we'll pick up the rest in a minute, but but I I want to go back. So at 14, 15, you're reading Luther, Aquinas, Bart. How like how how did you know about these these people? How did you pick what you were reading? Was that part of the homeschool curriculum? Were your parents guiding this? What where where was that coming from?

Ben Espinoza 9:07

That's a great question. So not really, you know, uh the homeschool curriculum I think was was very, very strong. Uh we could do another episode on homeschooling and my experience.

Joel Lawrence 9:15

Well, we we've homeschooled our kids, so yeah, we could probably have some conversations there.

Ben Espinoza 9:20

I'm a big fan on the whole, a big fan. But what happened was is um is is I got bored with the curriculum pretty easily. So I wake up and I do my math, I do my history. I like that you know, self-directed kind of individual kind of learning plan. And then we go shopping or something at like 10 a.m. because like the like the schedule was super flexible. And then I would just spend hours at the library. And I remember just going to the religion theology section at my local library, just picking up everything, right? So, you know, I'd studied church history in in the homeschooling curriculum, and then I was like, I want to read what these people these people actually wrote. So, like I said, it's like we're talking about uh Geneva. Okay, let's talk about John Calvin or the Reformation, let's talk about the 95 Theses in Martin Luther. So, like I said, it was I was reading about these people in the homeschool curriculum, and then I would go to the library and actually read what they wrote. I remember reading the catechism of the Catholic Church and then comparing it with Martin Luther's 95 Theses and trying to make sense of all of that. So I was such a nerd, Joel.

Joel Lawrence 10:24

But I'll typical 15-year-old behavior, you know.

Ben Espinoza 10:28

I know, right? So typical, right? But you know, homeschooling really provided me that opportunity to learn and really go deep. And it's not for everybody, but it was good for me because I was such a self-directed learner, and I was able to pick up and read whatever I wanted to, and that gave me a really strong foundation uh for theological study.

Joel Lawrence 10:47

Yeah, that's amazing. I it so looking back, did you feel like you were really understanding what what was what was going on in these texts? Like were you you you you say it gave you a foundation. You can kind of track back to that of some things that really were being built as you were as you were processing through these theologians?

Ben Espinoza 11:05

Yeah, I think so. And and and I I I haven't thought about it for a while, but honestly, I appreciated Martin Luther and his simplicity. You know, the 95 Theses are he's he's reacting to to what he's seeing in the Roman Catholic Church at that time, so it's very, very contextual. But I started to think, wow, I could I could put these on the door of my own church, and some of these things would re would ring true here, right? Right. And then obviously the um the shorter catechism, larger catechism really, like I said, gave me a firm foundation of theological uh knowledge, frankly. So when I would read through you know uh Martin Luther's works, those catechisms that he put together, and then the other catechisms and the creeds, that's really my entry point to uh to my conversation with the great tradition. So so growing up in a Baptist church, you know, there was sort of a we'd have a statement of faith, but creeds and confessions, we didn't really touch those. So it was sort of the forbidden fruit. So I felt like this rebellious 15-year-old reading these creeds and confessions. That's my form of teenage rebellion, Joel. Reading like the Nicene Creed and the Westminster Confession and the books of Martin Luther.

Joel Lawrence 12:16

I'd say that's that's the best form of teenage rebellion.

Ben Espinoza 12:19

I guess so. I guess so.

Joel Lawrence 12:21

All right. So you you're you're at this camp, you you surrender your life to Christ, a sense of a call to ministry, or a surrender to a call to ministry. Um take us now from there. What's your path into college? Uh kind of fanning this call to ministry into flame. What does that look like?

Ben Espinoza 12:41

Absolutely. So so growing up in the church that I did, you know, if you were going to go into ministry, you would go to Baptist Bible college in Clark Summit, Pennsylvania, which became Summit University, which became Clark Summit University, which is now closed. But what I did is my very first semester of college, I went to Bible college there in Pennsylvania. And I just struggled, Joel, and I struggled because I was 17 years old, wasn't very mature, and there were a lot of rules and restrictions there. And it was like a 12-hour drive away from my family, and I and I just couldn't do it. So I came home after a semester and went to community college, which is a change of pace from uh from going to a Bible college. But community college was great, Joel, because I got to interact with all different kinds of people, and that evangelistic pulse impulse was still there for me. So I got to share Jesus with all different kinds of people and had some success with it. And then after about a year at community college, I went to Cedarville University, which was another university that my church would would send students to. And there I studied Bible and theology and emphasis on New Testament. And my senior thesis was actually on Martin Luther's uh his understanding of Romans 13 in his political essays and commentary. So that was a really, really interesting study. I I know that's something that you're familiar with too.

Joel Lawrence 14:08

Yeah.

Ben Espinoza 14:08

So I that's sort of where my my college career culminated. And after that, I knew I was gonna go to go to seminary, but I just wasn't sure what I was gonna do. And and like I said, I I've always been a little bit rebellious, always wanted to buck the status quo. And most of my friends that went to seminary, they they would go to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, or they would go to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, or uh someone would even go to Reformed Theological Seminary. And I was like, what's the most left-field kind of place I could go? And I decided to go to Asbury Theological Seminary, which is a conservative evangelical school in the Wesleyan holiness tradition. At that time was educating more United Methodist pastors than any other official United Methodist seminary out there. And uh and I went there, they gave me a really large scholarship, the people there were so kind and so welcoming, but I came in as a Reformed Baptist to Asbury, and I came out a Reformed Baptist to Asbury. So I remember sitting at like the lunch table because some of the professors were great, they come and eat lunch with us, and we would just debate the finer points of sanctification and grace and justification. Talk about infant baptism, the sacraments, and we just went toe-to-toe on these kinds of things. But what I just really loved their heart, and I was educated so well there at Asbury Seminary. And I actually didn't do an MDiv, I ended up doing a master's in Christian education because I thought my bachelor's degree from Cedarville was so robust, and I had such a strong biblical theological foundation that I really wanted practical skills. And at that time, I'd been thinking about going into Christian higher education administration. So while I was at Asbury Seminary, I worked in institutional research and I worked in advancement. So I was calling donors trying to raise money for the institution. And then when I graduated from Asbury Seminary, I stayed on staff for a year to serve as a recruiter. So I was a Reformed Baptist evangelist for a Wesleyan seminary, preaching with the unicorn out there. Such a unicorn, right? It doesn't make sense. I really envy the people who are like, I was born this and I'm still this and I'm gonna die this, but that was never really the case for me. So uh so after Asbury, uh my wife and I went to uh Bowling Green, Ohio, where she ended up getting her master's degree. You know, along the way, I met my wife Hannah at Cedarville University. Uh she's from Rochester, New York, which is where I'm currently located, and I'll talk a little bit about that in a bit. But uh she was getting her master's degree in writing and I think literature at Bowling Green State University. And I and I went there after graduating from Asbury and falling, ended up falling into this uh this independent, reformed, charismatic church that was started by Jesus people in the 1970s, and then became hardcore, I think, uh like word of faith kind of prosperity for a minute. And then it went the other way and then went Christian Reconstruction with RJ Rushdoney and those kinds of things.

Joel Lawrence 17:14

That's quite a journey.

Ben Espinoza 17:15

I know, right? And and then when I when I when I got there in 2013, it ended up being a, like I said, independent reformed charismatic congregation. And a lot of things happened. So I started off as like a volunteer teaching young uh youth, and then ended up being the senior pastor for a couple of years, just some different pastoral transitions that that took place there. So I did that. And then like like I mentioned before, you know, I always believed that God wanted me to serve in Christian higher education administration. So when my wife finished up her master's at Bowling Green State, she ended up going to Michigan State University uh to do her PhD in writing and rhetoric. And then that's where I ended up.

Joel Lawrence 17:58

Did you move to Lansing then at that point?

Ben Espinoza 18:00

Yeah, we did. We did. I think she commuted for about a year because she got to Michigan State before I did. So she commuted back and forth for a year, and then I got into Michigan State to do my uh my degree in higher adult and lifelong education. And that was a wonderful experience being an evangelical pastor going to a secular, like a public university. And you hear horror stories about these things, but my my experience there, Joel, was just so rich and so life-giving because I met a lot of good people that really took me seriously as a thinker and would ask me questions. It's like, you know, how do you know the Bible's true? You know, do you still you know associate with evangelicalism despite some of its flaws? And just had some great friends and uh some great advisors and wonderful people there. And I ended up doing my dissertation on Hispanic faculty who work in evangelical seminaries. And I'm currently polishing off that dissertation and putting it into book form too, which has been a wonderful experience. Uh, but it was during that time, as you know, going into a university really causes you to question things. So I started to really kick the tires in on my theology because in a university setting, you have some people there who were like mainline Protestant, they kind of keep them faith, like their faith to themselves. And you have some evangelical Protestants who were there very public, but you also had people who were also anti-Christian. So you're in this environment, you're like, okay, maybe I should start questioning some things. So, long story short, I really started to kick the tires in on my own um theological understanding. So at that time, I was still sort of this non-denominational Reform Baptist person, but then I started to explore the Wesleyan tradition more because I had the Asbury background. I had all these textbooks on my shelf that I hadn't really read in a long time, and I ended up doing this theological audit and saying to myself, wow, I really believe this. I really do buy into Wesleyan holiness theology. And uh, coincidentally, or providentially rather, I was attending a Wesleyan church at the time a little bit reluctantly, and I was attending this church because I had a statistics professor at Michigan State who invited me to come for Christmas Eve. And it was a Wesleyan church, and I went for Christmas Eve, and I loved the preaching, I loved the worship, I loved what this church was doing in the community. And I was like, okay, you know what, I I can put aside some of my squabbles because on the big stuff they have this right, but I started to explore Wesleyan theology more and really realize that this is what I believe, and I really started to understand some of the doctrines that I objected to for a while. Uh, I really started to understand those as part of a broader theological system of Wesleyan holiness thought. And then my heart was strangely warmed and I didn't know Wesley.

Joel Lawrence 20:50

That happens. That happens, yeah.

Ben Espinoza 20:52

So so uh wrapped up my PhD at Michigan State in 2020. Uh so yeah, so there's a bit of my educational theological journey for you.

Joel Lawrence 21:00

Yeah. Yeah, it's so it's so interesting that that the uh that the Wesleyan tradition got you, but it was it was a a while after Asbury. I I wonder if there's you know, thinking through the the the sovereignty of God, the work of God in your life, had had from your time in Asbury, had you continued to kind of be processing the Wesleyan tradition more deeply and it was kind of working underground, or or was it this experience at this church that that really brought it back to you? And I'm just curious how that was working in your soul over those over the those years.

Ben Espinoza 21:39

Oh Angel, that's such a great question. I I would say that I had such a profound love for the Wesleyan holiness tradition the whole time I was in ministry. Even as I was pastoring, you know, that independent Reformed Baptist Church in Bowling, Ohio. I really had such a deep love for it because I I emphasize I really loved Wesley's emphasis on holy love and the love of God and his passion for evangelism. And I I loved his emphasis on the abolition of slavery, on um women in ministry, of just, you know, like you hear these stories about him just preaching all the time, founding orphanages and different institutions all over the place. You read about his time in Georgia, and um I was just blown away by by the expansiveness of his ministry and his thought. And I always appreciated his sermons because I I thought they were so pointed, and they were a bit practical too, in some ways, uh, even though there's such a cultural barrier between what he was doing back in his day and what we experience here today. But I had a process, I I had such a great love for the ministry of the Wesleys and John Wesley's uh really commitment to the abolition of slavery, which isn't something I I had seen among other other thinkers in the day. So really it was still working underground. The Lord, I think, was doing some work in me at the time. Uh so yeah, I'd have to think more about that, Joel, but but I would say that I would be processing it the whole time.

Joel Lawrence 23:11

Yeah. So you brought us up to about 2020, which is is kind of where the the book also comes into the story. Uh again, the book Good News About Self-Care, because this book is a very personal book. It it's it comes out of your own personal experiences of of anxiety, of of real challenges with with the condition of your own soul that you you honestly and and uh uh very helpfully kind of lay out as you as you set up the book. So so why don't we kind of do now the the biography and the book, how those start to come together here. So take us through those experiences that you're experienced in 2020 and following and kind of what the Lord was doing in your life and some of the challenges that you had, and then how that started to elicit this idea for the book.

Ben Espinoza 24:02

Oh, that's a great question. So uh after I finished my PhD at Michigan State, I ended up taking a uh high-level administrative position at a Christian university here in Rochester, New York. Uh my wife is from Rochester, New York, and she is specifically from the same town that this university is located in. So, as you know, applying for academic jobs, you know, you applied for a hundred and hope you get one interview. Yeah. You know, I I applied for really only one job and got it. And it was an added blessing that we were uh we were in the same town that my wife grew up in.

Joel Lawrence 24:35

So was it your guys' idea that you'd get back to that to Western New York at some point? Was that ?

Ben Espinoza 24:42

It was more my wife's idea. It was more my wife's idea, so it became my idea over time. That's really her idea. And I was I was open to whatever the Lord had in store, as you know, like finding jobs, you know, postdoctorate. You're just not sure where you're gonna land. But but yeah, so it it was really the Lord's doing in a lot of different ways. So beginning of 2020, here's where I was, Joel. Finishing up my dissertation, so was my wife. My wife was finishing up, uh, like I said, she was finishing up her dissertation. Uh she was pregnant with our second son. I was taking on this big fancy administrative job overseeing online and adult education. I was commuting back and forth between Michigan and New York State for a couple months. And then as soon as we moved in with my in-laws, because we put our house in the market, March 2020 happened. As we all know, the pandemic upended everything, right? So here I was, big fancy job, trying to finish the dissertation, wondering how my how is my wife gonna give birth? Are we even allowed in hospitals here? Uh am I gonna am I gonna be able to get along with my in-laws, who I love, but as you know, being in close quarters with people for uh for a certain amount of time kind of breeds, you know, what is it, familiarity breeds contempt, right? Yeah. So here I was in 2020, just figuring out like what is going on here, and a lot of changes all at once. So in April 2020, I started to notice that I was getting these like bumps on my hands. Yeah so like any wise, thoughtful person, I decided to go to WebMD and start to do some self-diagnosis. And I was like, okay. Um and I figured out that these bumps in my hands were really just signs of stress. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna relax a little bit, put some lotion on the hands, and be fine. And then after that, I started to get these eye twitches, which according to WebMD, could be a sign of something really, really bad. So I started to freak out about that anymore some more and start spiraling. And eventually the eye twitches went away. And then after the eye twitch went away, I started to get this pain like in my lower back and my abdomen. And I was like, okay, something is is wrong here, right? And all this time I'm dealing with the stress of you know, trying to cut budgets, asking hard questions about personnel, trying to figure out what's going on in the world, you know, conversations about racial injustice are happening nationally, they're happening in my own household. What does this look like? And um, I decided to go to the doctor, and I'm like, doctor, what is wrong with me? So he runs a few tests, and you know, he's like, dude, you're healthy. Like you're you're perfectly fine. And he gives me uh some medicine for anti-anxiety and everything. So then I go home, I feel a little bit of relief, but everything just keeps coming back. I keep stressing out, and at this point, my whole body hurts. I'm not sleeping at all. And if you've gone more than a few days without sleeping, Joel, like your reality and your imagination start to blend together in really unhealthy ways. So I go back to my doctor and I'm like, hey man, something's actually wrong with me. You are wrong about this, buddy. Something is actually wrong with me. I've done my homework, I have a doctorate too, right? Web MD, WebMD tells me you're wrong. And my PhD from Michigan State. I know what I'm talking about. So he's like, okay, you know, I'll give you a muscle relaxer to kind of help you sleep and take away the pain. We'll see what that does. And that actually did help quite a bit. And I was able to get more sleep, the pain started to go away, started to get some therapy, you know, the restrictions started to lift a little bit, started to get into a better rhythm. You know, we welcomed our second son, and that was a joyish experience. Uh so what happened after that, after I sort of got back on my feet again, was me really examining the course of my life and asking some hard questions. You know, how come I couldn't handle this? I know many, many people that went through the same pandemic experiences I did, who have big jobs, big families, do big things, and yet here I am, I just couldn't handle it. And I started to realize that there was this pattern in my life where I was just so ambitious and anxious to achieve things and accomplish things that I never really knew how to take care of myself. And when I looked at my life, I was like, wow, I've accomplished so much by the age of 30, 31, and I had a career so far that people would say is great and successful, and dare I say, God honoring, God glorifying. And here I was, I'd made an idol of my career, and I sacrificed one of the greatest gifts that God had given me, which is which is myself on the altar of my career, and the altar of productivity. So so really what this book comes from is my own reflection on you know why I didn't take care of myself. You know, it was it was ambition, it was it was this desire to achieve, and and and the book is really the fruit of my own journey of learning what it looks like to take care of yourself as an image bearer. And I started writing it uh toward the end of my time at that university, and I ended up taking a pastorate a few years ago, rather getting back into pastoral ministry a few years ago, and I had more time to reflect on it, and uh and really that's that's where the book came from. That's the experience that that led to me uh penning this book.

Joel Lawrence 29:51

I I want to talk about this this theme of image bearer and how how you root your you root the book in that image. Before we do that, just just let's talk about the term self-care for a second. Because I I would imagine there might be some folks who are listening to this who might think, well, that's a pretty secular kind of a way to do it. And everyone talks about self-care and it feels a bit maybe moralistic, therapeutic and so talk to us about the phrase self-care and how you understand it theologically, why you think that's such that's an important phrase to use in articulating what you're laying out in the book.

Ben Espinoza 30:26

Absolutely, that's a great question. So for me, you know, self-care isn't in the Bible, it is more of an anachronistic kind of term. So let me just lay that out. Like, you know, when I read the Bible, it doesn't talk about like taking care of yourself, but there's uh there's broader themes that you can get from scripture and uh and theological reflection that help you get to the point of believing that self-care is an important thing. So, you know, it's interesting because um, you know, my my my grandfather, you know, he was uh he was an electrician and he he quit school when he was in sixth grade to take care of his family. Now I was thinking about this as I was writing it, and uh he was a Mexican-American immigrant, and I was like, you know, I doubt my grandfather would care about this this practice of self-care. He would probably just say, you just gotta toughen up, suck it up, do your job, provide for your family, you know, go to the movies once in a while, you know, enjoy a drink every now and then, and that's self-care, you know. But it it really does have a negative reputation because when you think of self-care, it sounds a little bit squishy, it sounds kind of fluffy. You know, you think about bubble baths and dark chocolate and spa days, and really just a lot of self-centeredness, right? Like I'm not gonna take care of exactly treat yourself, right? Which is a which is which is a good thing. But I but I I think there's sort of a there there might be a movement out there that that would say, you know, the certain responsibilities that I have, I'm gonna sacrifice those so I can really take care of myself when we're called to be faithful stewards of whatever God has given us, which is why I think self-care is so important, because God has created us in his image and his likeness, and we're worthy of dignity and and value. And when I think about you know uh God leading the Israelites out of Egypt and saying, you know, you you toiled day after day after day in Egypt. I have led you out of that. You no longer serve those gods that Pharaoh told you to serve. You serve me. So six days you're gonna work, and then the seventh day, this is a day of rest, just as I rest after I created everything that you can see. So when I think about self-care as a theological term, it really is honoring the divine image, honoring the fact that we are created in God's image. And uh when I think about you know the commands that that Jesus said, it's like the two greatest commands love God with everything that you are, then love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. So yeah. So like I said, set self-care can be kind of squishy, but there's a lot in scripture that lends itself to the idea that we must honor the fact that we are God's image bearers.

Joel Lawrence 32:58

So let's talk about that some more because I I think this is such helpful framing in the book. And and uh as as we as I read through, as we talked about it a little bit, um, that just really is what's what's continued to to kind of stick with me is this idea of of honoring the image of God in ourselves. And I think we would all be very, very uh quick to say that we should image honor the image of God and in others. Um, but maybe think of it as actually, we also need to honor the image of God in ourselves. So first talk to us a little bit about how you understand Imago Day theologically, and then um how how you would help us to understand how the honoring of the image of God should shape the way that we we live in the world, the way that we live with God, neighbor, and ourselves.

Ben Espinoza 33:53

Oh, that's that's a fantastic question. So let me just say that scholars, theologians, pastors for thousands of years have reflected on this. And there's many different schools of thought here. People still write books about these things, right? But the way I've come to understand it uh is that as image bearers, we are created in God's image, meaning we have dignity, we have value, we have inherent worth, right? So, you know, God is a God of life, not death. And when you read through the different commandments that God gave Israel in uh in the Mosaic law, a lot of it is really focused on honoring life, right? So as God's image bearers, you know, we are worthy of that dignity, of that value, of that worth, right? There's something inherent within us. But as image bearers, we also we are also to reflect God's image to the world, right? So what I would say is that, and like I said, there's a lot of theological reflection on this, is that as image bearers, you know, some people would would say that there's a broken image there, that we are we are worthy of dignity and value and worth. We are God's image bearers, but we are also marred by by sin. And you know, sin is taken care of on the cross of Jesus Christ, and when we proclaim that Jesus is King of kings, Lord of lords, we have the forgiveness of sins, and we can more better reflect the image of God into the world. So because Jesus is the perfect image, and and as a Wesleyan holiness person, I would say that growing in love of God and love of neighbor is really what holiness looks like, and that's us exemplifying the example that Christ has given us, right? So to be created in the image of God, you know, dignity, value, worth, but as Christians, you know, people who have been saved and are being sanctified, we are the ones who have responsibility to reflect the image of God into the world. And like you said, it's very, very easy for us to say, all these other people are created in God's image. We have to care for them, we must reject violence, we must reject, you know, any sort of prejudice, racism, any sort of discrimination, these kinds of things. But within ourselves, it's important for us to recognize that that we are also image bearers and that we are with the like the fact that we are God's image bearers, Joel, like means that we are a gift. There's there's no other Joel Lawrence that may I actually know a guy named Joel Lawrence who's not you.

Joel Lawrence 36:13

There's a few out there.

Ben Espinoza 36:14

Yeah, there's no other Joel Lawrence that is uniquely you or a Ben Espinoza that is uniquely me, right? So it's almost like you know, we are, in a sense, uh God's gift to this world. And God had said, and I don't want to sound like cliche or anything, but you know, I'm gonna that this person is going to reflect my image in such a beautiful way. I've I'm going to bless them with the ability to reflect my image to the world for a specific purpose, right? And if we have that purpose, then that means that we have to take care of ourselves better than we do, right? And I think I'll wax on a little bit. You know, sometimes in our Christian organizations, you know, we we're so devoted to the mission that sometimes we can become a bit exploitative, right? We can underpay people, we can say, you know what, people do it because they they they love it. But you know, as I've seen in different Christian organizations, there are many, many good ones out there, but I think many times we we don't understand that that people who engage in in Christian work, either in churches or different like parachurch organizations, you know, we we do so at great personal cost. And and that really is my own story of working in church and parachurch organizations and you know not having like the best kind of experiences there, right? So I've begun to think more about what the theology of the Imago Day means, like from an organizational perspective, too. So I know that's a lot, so feel free to pull on any thread there.

Joel Lawrence 37:38

No, it's it it's great, and I I hope what it's doing is uh is causing people to click on on the link in Amazon uh to buy buy the book because there's so much there's so much rich richness here. Uh uh one question I did want to explore a little bit is um as you as you've walked through this journey, um how has it changed your relationship with yourself or how you understand a proper relationship to the self?

Ben Espinoza 38:09

That's really good. So if I could talk about the book a little bit, you know, like the book is uh is organized around four key relationships. So number one is your relationship with God, then number two is your relationship with yourself, and then number three is relationship with society, and then number four is relationship with other people, right? So I intentionally start with a relationship with God because if that's not right, if you're not in the word, if you're not in prayer, if you're not living a life of worship and gratitude, then like everything else is gonna be out of whack. You know, I've had those times, you've had those times where you're working hard, you're trying to do the work of ministry, but you're doing a lot in your own power, and you're not, you know, giving it to the Lord, you're not surrendering to the Spirit, right? So, you know, first of all is that relationship with God. And then I talk about the relationship with the self, which when you look at a lot of self-care literature, it really is understanding yourself, who you are, how how you're wired, and that's a beautiful thing, but you have to understand yourself as God's image bearer, and you have to understand yourself as having a purpose from God. So the second part of the book is relationship with the self. So I talk about you know a physical and emotional health, mental health, but also playfulness, right? I talk about you know how you know uh GK Chesterton has this, he has this wonderful paragraph. I talk about this in the book where God's creative, you know, power is manifested in the son, going, do it again, do it again, like a child saying, do it again. It's like God saying to the son, do it again, do it again, right? And uh and playlessness is a word I coin. Hopefully, I'm the hopefully I coined it. I want to give proper credit to whoever said it first. But I've never seen it anywhere.

Joel Lawrence 39:48

  I've never seen it anywhere.

Ben Espinoza 39:48

Good. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you. I trust your judgment, Joel. You've read a lot more than I am. So uh so really, you know, like playfulness, and that's an important part, I think, of reflecting God's image. And I talk about the relationship with society. So I talk about Sabbath and the purpose therein. I talk about solitude as unwinding ourselves from the unhelpful, unhealthy rhythms of the world. I talk about limiting technology because social media, like I said, that's a whole other episode. I I think has done great work, but also great harm. Yeah. And finally, I talk about relationships with uh with others, whether you're um in in work, with with your mission, how you understand your place in the world, but also uh your your personal relationships that you have. And I was intentional about putting self second because you have to understand yourself as an image bearer. And as I reflected on this, you know, ever since my experience during the pandemic, I didn't really have a theology, a high theology of myself as an image bearer.

Joel Lawrence 40:50

Yeah.

Ben Espinoza 40:51

Because when you look at the example of Christ, I think about Philippians chapter 2, Kenosis. Christ has emptied himself, you know, took upon the form of a servant and helping himself become obedient to death, even death on the cross. That doesn't sound like self-care to me, Joel. And then when I think about the apostle Paul, it's like, you know, I got shipwrecked, I got beaten up here, I've been cold, I've been hungry. I'm like, there's not a lot of self-care there. But uh but I I tended to take those examples there and say, I gotta be like Jesus, I gotta be like Paul. Right. When you look at the example of Christ, you know, he's there, he's setting aside a time, time for prayer, he's setting aside a time to uh to be with the Father, he's setting aside time to be with other people. One of the other things that I talk about in the book is is limiting your mission, right? Because I think a lot of us, me especially, you know, we we think that we have to do everything. We don't really have a clear direction. And yet, you know, Jesus had a very clear posture. It's like, I'm here, here's what I'm supposed to do. The Spirit's gonna tell you these kinds of things. Father, I have worked with and I have loved the ones that you have given me here. You know, there's a specific time and a place, and there's activities that characterize his mission, right? He could have done a million different kinds of things, but he chooses to do very specific things because I think Christ recognized recognized the limitations of his human side.

Speaker 4 42:16

Yeah.

Ben Espinoza 42:16

And that's not something I did. I thought I could do it all, I thought I could be it all, I thought I could have it all, but I didn't recognize recognize my own limitations as a human. And and I and I think that this is something that I think the book is I think it's helpful especially for leaders and Christian organizations because there's a lot of us who want to to be all things to all people when in reality you look at Christ, very limited in this mission.

Joel Lawrence 42:41

Yeah. And and I want to I I want to end there, just make a comment uh and then and then come to have you reflect a little bit more particularly on this for pastors. But but but the comment I I would make is I I think this is one of the real differentiations between what you're doing here and what maybe I've seen in some of the kind of more popular secular self-care is is sort of this promise in some of the popular level stuff or or secular stuff around if if you take care of yourself, then uh you won't have suffering. Or if you take care of yourself, then you you you're you can relieve yourself from all these things. And if those things are coming at you, it's because you're doing something wrong and you need to you need to fix that. And and what I what I hear you saying is no, but there's still going to be suffering, right? There's still going to be the burdens and the anxieties of life and depression, depressive moments and the things that we grapple with. But the self-care, the life with God, the taking care of ourselves, the proper relationship with the world around us, as well as with our with our our neighbors, our families, that's the context in which Christ could lay down his life and take up the cross and be obedient to the Father, because he'd spent hours and hours and hours in prayer. With his father, communing with the father. And then when it came to the time when the father sent him to the cross, and he says, if there's any way this could be taken away from me, now's the time for that, you know, plan B. And yet, not my will, but yours be done. And and I just I think that gives such a richness to this isn't some Pollyanna promises of hey, if you do this, then it's no, this is the context within which the fullness of our life with God plays out. And I just think that's a beautiful, a beautiful picture. So okay, last last question, just you know, for pastors, for Christian leaders. Um, anything specific you want to say, just as an as a word of encouragement, a word of of um of of kind exhortation around this this issue of self-care.

Ben Espinoza 44:49

It was funny. As you were asked that question, I was like, okay, I'm really gonna lay in. And then you're like kind exhortation. So as as pastors, you know, I honestly feel as though we're the worst at this. And I think part of it is that we want to sacrifice, we want to be like Christ, we want to be like Paul, we're gonna be all things to all people, right? We want to be super, superhumans. When in reality, that's that's not what we're called to. You know, when I when I look at the example of the apostles in Acts chapter six, it's like we have the ministry of the word and prayer. But I but I think in modern church life, we're called to the ministry of the word and to prayer, and to running an organization and doing conflict, uh conflict management and community development, these kinds of things, right? And we lean into that, right? So I would say in with really good intentions, we tend to sacrifice ourselves for the purpose and the work of ministry. And you see it time and time again, right? I could I could I could talk about the statistics on burnout and fatigue and the number of pastors that have wanted to leave ministry in the last several years, especially post-pandemic. But I could also talk about pastors uh who have failed morally, and to me, that is a that that is a sign of having disordered loves and a disordered interior life, right? You're not taking care of your soul or yourself because there's a long pathway to get to the point of moral compromise, um, and it's and it's line with not spending time with the Father, not digging into God's word, not having accountability. Um so that that's what I'll say to that. But in a similar way, there's a million different expectations placed on pastors. I like to tell people, you know, people want me to be in the office eight to five every day, and they want me to be out in the community building relationships, you know, community partnerships, having coffee and lunch with everybody at the same time. You know, so there's expectations there. So my exhortation usually to pastors is like, look, you're not called to do everything, but if you're going to lead a board or a staff or a group of pastors under your care, then you have to say, okay, here's my responsibilities, here are your responsibilities, take care of yourself first, because if we don't take care of ourselves, then we're not gonna be able to steward uh the the people that God has entrusted us with. So take care of yourself, take the Sabbath, take the day off, don't work, take take the uh take that Monday off after you preach or that Friday before you preach, turn off the phone, turn off social media, let your board know you're not gonna be available because your mental health, your spiritual health, your emotional health, your relational health, your vocational health is supremely important in leading the church. I've seen people take down churches because they didn't take care of themselves well, and neither did their board have a robust understanding of what pastoral self-care or pastoral care looks like. So, pastors, take care of yourself.

Joel Lawrence 47:50

Amen. Amen. Well, Ben, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast and sharing your story and also for the book. I just really would like to encourage folks to pick it up. Again, it's called Good News About Self-Care. Uh, and it it's uh it's filled with lots of wisdom and hard-earned wisdom uh from your own journey. But thanks for sharing that with us.

Ben Espinoza 48:11

Well, thank you so much, Joel. Thank you so much for having me.

Zach Wagner 48:15

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Creekhorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Rae Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.