BONUS | Ben Espinoza on Books and Preaching

In this short bonus episode of the Pastor Theologians podcast, Ben Espinoza shares the preaching resources that have shaped his ministry, highlighting John Stott’s Between Two Worlds and Haddon Robinson’s work on expository preaching. He discusses the importance of bridging Scripture and culture, understanding the world of the Bible alongside the world of today. Ben also reflects on how his Wesleyan theological journey has shaped his preaching through an emphasis on grace, dialogue, and engaging people where they are. 

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Transcript

Joel Lawrence 0:01

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Center for Pastor Theologians podcast. My name is Joel Lawrence, and I serve as the president of the CPT. And I'm joined today by Ben Espinoza. We've just finished recording a longer podcast about Ben's story and a book that he has written. But we're we've been doing these bonus episodes lately talking about preaching and preaching resources. So, Ben, thanks for jumping back on and uh having this conversation with us. Thanks so much, Joel. Do you want to ask you? Uh, you've you've been in pastoral ministry uh uh a couple different places over the years and been in preaching ministry. Um would love to hear about a resource or a couple of resources, whatever you want to share with us on things that have helped you as you think about preaching in the preaching ministry, things that have kind of shaped your vision of preaching.

Ben Espinoza 0:52

Absolutely. So I would say my favorite book on preaching of all time, of all the hundreds that are out there, is John Stott's Between Two Worlds. And I read that book back in college, I think, for advanced homiletics, and and I loved it because up until that point I hadn't read a book on preaching that really took seriously the notion of like cultural exegesis, right? So John Stott is basically like look, you gotta preach, you gotta preach expository, you know, you have to understand the world of the Bible, the intent of the authors, but you also have to understand the world that you live in too. And up until that point, uh 15, 20 years ago, I hadn't seen a lot of models of preaching out there that took seriously the cultural context of the day. You know, I I kind of cut my teeth when Tim Keller was on the rise, and I read his book on preaching, and I appreciated so much of Tim Keller's ministry because he was able to bridge the world of the Bible and you know offer some pretty good cultural commentary too. So John stops between two worlds is something that I go back to frequently because it reminds me that that preaching is the method by which God has chosen to proclaim his word. And that and that's something that I think we forget a little bit. I think that in modern evangelical preaching, some churches they they use scripture a little bit, but it sometimes it feels a little bit like life coaching. Yeah. Let me help you deal with this problem. Here's a couple passages of scripture to help you think about it, but it it just feels a little bit too much like something I could get on on a YouTube like video or on a podcast or something like that. Whereas I love what John Stott does because he spends pages upon pages like talking about the history, the theology of preaching, the objections to preaching, talks about how to preach, but also like the contemporary issues that they were dealing with at the time in the mid to late 20th century. And we have different issues now, but but still very similar issues, you know, sociopolitical issues, issues with the media, you know, back in John Stott's day, it was all about television. Now for us, it's social media. But what I've tried to do model in my what I've tried to model in my preaching is an understanding of where we're at, the kinds of things that people are struggling with, but also saying, hey, here's the stuff that they were wrestling with in the Bible. Here's what Paul or the writers, that's this is what they were thinking, this is how they thought about it. And and this is why God's word meets the challenge today. Like it is always relevant. And, you know, sort of the the method, the style might might differ, but ultimately you have to bridge two worlds, as he says, you know, the world of scripture and the world of of today. So that's been an incredible resource for me. I go back to it often.

Joel Lawrence 3:43

Yeah, I I uh I agree. That one, I one of my textbooks in seminary, and uh it's a constant companion over the years. So uh on the kind of cultural exegesis side of that, uh, do you have uh an intentionality around how you do cultural exegesis, how you stay stay current, how you do kind of a scan of what's going on? Is it more just kind of living life and recognition? How does that work for you? Because I think it's we can all kind of talk about our our our biblical process in preaching, right? Our kind of sermon construction process. So the biblical exegesis part, but what what about the the cultural exegesis part? How do you think about that and and and execute that?

Speaker 1 4:31

Absolutely. So, you know, uh, as I mentioned on the previous podcast, we did. So I did my PhD in higher adult and lifelong education from Michigan State, which is a very social science degree, and I was able to bring some theological reflection into it. But what that did was it enabled me uh the ability to read you know academic research and studies and understand statistics and be being able to really understand what's going on in the world, and that impressed upon me just a need and desire and uh you know, like an everyday value of mine is just to read and understand what's going on in the world, understand why it's going on, what's happening, what are the theories that are out there that are shaping how people think and live their lives. And uh so that experience was was invaluable for me because it showed me that uh that in order to really proclaim Jesus, you have to understand where people are coming from. And it was interesting to me because you know, Acts chapter 17, Paul on Mars Hill has sort of been a model for preaching. It's like you look at Paul, he understands what these poets and these philosophers are saying. You know, he understands, he said, Look, I see your religious people, I see these statues here, I see there's this altar to the unknown God. Let me tell you about this unknown God, and let me use your own poets and philosophers. It's like for me, let me tell you about Jesus. Let's look at the theorists and the people that are informing and shaping how we think about the world today, and then let me show you that Jesus meets those needs, right? So I try to be very intentional about understanding the thoughts, the the values, the theories, the ideologies that are shaping people's lives so I can effectively answer those things with preaching.

Joel Lawrence 6:16

So uh one last question from your from your journey that we talked about on the main podcast, uh, so encourage people to to listen to that as well. So you went from a a Reformed Baptist tradition into a Wesleyan tradition, um kind of shaped theologically in that journey. How has I how has that that part of your story shifted the way that you preach? Like is your preaching now sort of appreciably different as you've as you've come into the Wesleyan tradition and and the Wesleyan theological emphases as opposed to what it was before? Just curious how how that theological shift may be bearing out in preaching shifts.

Speaker 1 7:01

Oh man, that's a that's a that's a tricky, thorny issue right there. But I love it, I love it. Let's go there. So I I would say a couple different things. You know, I I cut my teeth on reading Haddon Robinson, on reading John Stott. So very much still an expository preacher. You know, I'll I'll do I'll do topical-ish sometimes, but really it's like we're gonna look at this topic and we're gonna look at it through this passage and we're gonna exegete this passage, we're gonna understand it, we're gonna apply it to our lives. So I've always been an expository preacher, but but I think the shift that I've made is really this notion of provenient grace, that we have been given a grace that allows us to come to know Jesus in contrast to other theological traditions. So uh there's this uh Sri Lankan theologian named D.T. Niles that defined provenient grace as the previousness of Jesus in the lives of everybody, right? So as a wrestling, I believe that that God is trying to seeking to bring about salvation in the lives of everybody. He wills that none should perish, and therefore that gives me a whole lot of grace for people who I might consider to be anti-Christian or sort of opponents or think about the world differently than me, but really recognizing that you know God has them on some kind of journey, and God has allowed me the privilege to speak truth to them, and vice versa as well, because I'm not perfect either. I'm still on a journey. So I always ask myself, well, what am I to teach? How am I to preach to this particular group of people? What am I to say to these groups of people that that'll help them move along to an understanding of Jesus Christ? But how how are they shaping me? How are they informing the way I think about things? And what ways are, you know, going back to the previous question, and what ways are the theories, the ideologies, the values that they espouse, and what ways are they kicking the tires in and challenging me on the way that I think about things? So probably it's it's helped me. I'm still very much an expository preacher, Joel, but I tend to want to have a dialogue about different ideas and really kick the tires in on things.

Joel Lawrence 9:08

Yeah, it's great. Love it. Well, thanks again, Ben. Appreciate you sharing those thoughts with us and blessings to you in your ministry. Awesome.

Zach Wagner 9:15

God bless you, Joel. Thanks so much, brothers. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Precorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Rae Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.