Becoming a Pastor Theologian | Jeff Hubing

In this episode of the Pastor Theologians podcast, we invite Jeff Hubing to share his journey into pastoral ministry, shaped by personal tragedy, a deep love for Scripture, and a desire to connect theology with everyday life. He reflects on how his father’s faith influenced his calling, his theological studies, and his work leading a network of house churches in Chicago. Jeff discusses a vision of church leadership centered on family, discipleship, and raising up others—not simply gathering crowds, but equipping and releasing people for the work of ministry.

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Transcript

Jeff Hubing 2:32

We don't simply think that we are being successful by collecting an increasing number of people to sit and listen to us talk. And I would encourage us to think about instead the number of people that are we that we are mobilizing, that we are building and releasing.

Zach Wagner 2:56

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. We had a conversation today with CPT fellow Jeff Hubing, who, and I mean this in the most respectful way I can, is one of our unique, most unique fellows in terms of his ministry context and his story. And I also find that I am so encouraged and stirred in the spirit, truly, whenever I interact with Jeff. He's a really, really sincere and passionate guy. And his approach to ministry is love for the Lord is very striking. I was going to ask you what stood out to you about this conversation with Jeff. I just kind of gave a little a little teaser of that. What did you enjoy about this?

Joel Lawrence 3:50

No surprise. I feel very, I feel very similarly about Jeff. He does exude the Spirit. And he's an encourager. He looks at the world a little bit differently, I think, than a lot of us do in a very helpful way. And like in fellowship gatherings, he he brings that to the conversation. I've always found being in the room with him so fun because he's always going to come at a slant on whatever we're not as a contrarian, but just kind of the way he looks at the world. And so I think what I appreciate in this conversation, two things. One, his the soil of his call to ministry coming out of tragedy, a loss of a of his father, and how that compelled him toward faith and ministry. I just found that to be a very moving part of his story and the way that he he talks about his dad and the way that he talks about how the he was compelled by his dad's life to study scripture and how that kind of set him on the path. And then two, just um Jeff leads a a series of uh a network of home churches or serves, he probably would prefer, we say a series of home churches. He would prefer that. And that's a unique, that's a unique setting for us as as CPT. So hearing his thoughts on that, um, the way that that plays out in his pastoral ministry, um, his heart behind really viewing the church as family and allowing that to shape his vision is was just very encouraging.

Zach Wagner 5:29

Yeah, I also just found his reflection on his call to ministry, as well as the his time talking about his father. I found that very, yeah, very encouraging and moving as well. So uh we love Jeff. We're confident you listeners are gonna enjoy Jeff a lot as well. So let's get into this becoming a pastor theologian conversation with Jeff Hubbing. Jeff, welcome to the podcast.

Joel Lawrence 5:59

It's great to have you with us.

Jeff Hubing 6:00

Thank you, bro. Uh appreciate the invitation. It's great to sit down with you guys. Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 6:05

So uh looking forward to this conversation as we uh get to know Jeff and his story a little bit of becoming a Pastor Theologian. Um, so Jeff, as we always do when we when we uh do these conversations, we begin at the beginning. So tell us a bit about your early days. Where did where did where did Jeff Hubing emerge into the world? And uh what was your what were your experiences growing up? Did you grow up in the in in faith? Tell us about that.

Jeff Hubing 6:34

Yeah, good question. Maybe like some of you out there, I had no interest in becoming a pastor or theologian when I was younger, born and raised in southeastern Wisconsin. Um, I did come from a home where um God was sought. And my parents went on a little bit of a spiritual journey in my youth, like early formation years, so all the way through third grade, we were going to uh visiting different churches, everything from Presbyterian to what I would call like a word of faith type of uh hyper Pentecostal environment. Like we, you know, I I we kind of saw it all. My mom grew up Dutch Reformed, my dad was Roman Catholic, and they really didn't want either of those, so we found ourselves visiting uh a lot. In one of those gatherings, I heard the gospel and responded. And uh thank God for that. I think it was around third grade.

Joel Lawrence 7:34

What was then where where were you when that happened? What was the the church context where you can't do that?

Jeff Hubing 7:40

Yeah, I think that was you know, and then and this is what always gives me caution uh when in criticizing certain communities, but this was one of those word of faith churches, but they preached the gospel, and in that moment, I mean I'm a I'm a child, and yet something made sense to me about needing Jesus. And I did respond that day in faith, and um something took because I I really continued to to live as a believer um from that point on. And ultimately, ultimately, my folks settled in an Assemblies of God Church, which is uh kind of a uh Pentecostal denomination on the smaller side of denominations in the U.S., but globally maybe one of the larger um Pentecostal or non-denominational denominations. So uh stayed in that environment really through my undergraduate degree. I did not study theology as an undergrad. I studied um international relations, believe it or not. A lot of poli sci and econ and diplomacy. And uh I thought I was gonna go into something like humanitarian relief. I kind of wanted to work in a field where I could put that insight into international politics to work to help, especially like war-torn ravaged areas, but also so get relief in there, but then also maybe work you know with a Christian organization to help um help folks access the gospel as well. So that was kind of the track I was on.

Joel Lawrence 9:22

Um was that was that something that like in high school were you were you thinking about this kind of a path or where how did that emerge?

Jeff Hubing 9:31

It's interesting, it's a good question. No, I I started my undergrad as a math major. I was pretty good at math, but but after taking calc two, my first semester freshman year, I came to the conclusion that there had to be more to life than that. Uh no offense to any math majors out there, but I I just couldn't keep doing it. I I just it's not a good idea.

Joel Lawrence 9:52

They don't listen to this podcast, it's fine. It's fine.

Jeff Hubing 9:54

 It's too much.

Joel Lawrence 9:54

That's right.

Jeff Hubing 9:55

God bless you. I love you all, but I couldn't do it. So my roommate actually was in this organization called Model United Nations.

Joel Lawrence 10:03

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 10:04

And I thought, oh, that that sounds interesting. And I went with him uh to a couple of meetings and a conference, and I was kind of hooked. I I was very fascinated by the world of of language and positioning and stra, you know, strategic thinking. And so I dove headlong into that and but carried you know my Christian convictions with me and found that I I just loved learning about other cultures, other world, um, other worldviews, other other places, other people groups, and it it just kind of became a thing that um you know it still kind of marks the work I do here in Chicago and and abroad. So it was those were the beginnings was like a di kind of a rejection of the numbers. And kind of an up and uh thought about like, man, I I don't think I can keep doing this. Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 11:00

That that path just uh it's really interesting, Jeff, because my my son is doing model UN and he wants to go into like disaster relief. So he's in this, like you describing your process is ringing a lot of bells with what we're talking about.

Zach Wagner 11:15

Tell him he can be Jeff when he grows up. I will. I will.

Joel Lawrence 11:18

Yeah, but I don't think he's gonna start, he's not gonna start as a math major. He won't start in that uh yes, yes, in that place, that's for sure.

Zach Wagner 11:26

Jeff, did you did you

Joel Lawrence 11:27

yeah

Zach Wagner 11:28

Did you mention um where you did your undergrad?

Jeff Hubing 11:32

Uh no, I it went to a state school in Wisconsin. It's called Wisconsin Oshkosh. Oshkosh, okay. Oshkosh is best known for a line of children's clothing.

Joel Lawrence 11:41

It is.

Jeff Hubing 11:42

So I often say that I majored in fastening devices with a minor in buttons. You'd be surprised how many people think I'm actually being serious about that, but um no, that's that's where I did the undergraduate work.

Zach Wagner 11:55

Okay. Great.

Joel Lawrence 11:56

So during your time there um in Oshkosh, were you were you rooted in a church? Was your faith continuing to develop in college?

Jeff Hubing 12:06

Yeah. In in fact, I grew in college. Um thank God I got plugged into a couple of Christian organizations. One was the FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Um that was a great spot to kind of grow in discipleship and friendship with other believers on campus. And then I I did help plant a campus church at one point, campus community church. It was like a non-denominational group. Um really enjoyed that. Uh so yeah, there were there were, I mean, obviously any secular campus is a lot of shenanigans going on there. But um, by the grace of God, I think um I ended up really growing and developing as a as a Christian.

Joel Lawrence 12:49

So you were um you're you're majoring in disaster or what what what did you say that was?

Jeff Hubing 12:56

The technical degree is international studies.

Joel Lawrence 13:00

Okay, okay.

Jeff Hubing 13:01

Concentration in developing world...so if you're interested in...

Joel Lawrence 13:04

As you're going through that, um at what point does pastoral ministry start to come in? Because you you led with you never wanted to be a pastor or a theologian. Yeah. So at what point does the the calling of God in in this particular direction start to come into your life?

Jeff Hubing 13:30

Yeah, in in my case, it enters through a door uh of tragedy. And that that has to do with in the summer after my junior year in college, my dad passed away. Uh he died of liver cancer. He was diagnosed in I think late February. Um, and by late July, he was gone.

Joel Lawrence 13:53

Wow.

Jeff Hubing 13:54

So it was a pretty quick diagnosis followed by you know a deterioration, and then you know, he passed.

Joel Lawrence 14:02

And he'd been healthy up to that point in time?

Jeff Hubing 14:06

Yeah.  So...wow. Extraordinarily healthy. Like it was the kind of thing that no one really could make sense of because he, you know, he I mean, as a young man, he probably, you know, had his share of drinking or smoking or whatever, but like since he found the Lord when I was an infant, so you know, in his early in, you know, maybe maybe he was 20, 21, since then he you know put away all that stuff and he lived a very healthy life. He was on the cutting edge of like vitamins and supplements and protein powders and all of that. So the diagnosis was crazy, and we you know, we thought this gotta be something, it's gotta be a mistake. Um and he was fairly young, it sounds like he was 40 he was 40 years old. Yeah, amazing. One of those stories. Yeah, you don't know how to process that. I was the oldest of five kids. So I I was 21. My youngest brother, I believe, was seven. Wow. So um, you know, we we did all the things that you could do. I mean, we we prayed, we fasted, we were good Pentecostals, so we laid hands and we asked God for healing, and we took him to the you know here the healing crusades and all those things. Yeah, and we just do whatever you can do because you're kind of desperate, like do something. Um but in the end he passed away. So my mom's a widow at 40 with five kids, and I'm the oldest, and I got people at my dad's funeral telling me I gotta take over his insurance business now, you know, because I'm the oldest son. I mean it was wild. Um but I tell you what, you know, for some people, that is a make or break kind of moment for faith, right? Like some people go through that and they walk away. Yeah, for me, it was the opposite. Because all through that, I kept thinking, like, what is it about my dad that made him such a great man? Now I a lot of people have painful wounds from their fathers. Um, I didn't have that. My dad was a great dad. I mean, he loved my mom, he loved us, he was present, he was supported us. He went to our sports events and school things. Uh he was like the first insurance agent in his whole, you know, like region to say, I'm not working nights, I'm I'm leaving the office at five and I'm going home. You know, like just crazy thing. So he was committed, he was devoted. He was a he was not an upfront person. Like he you would never have caught him preaching or anything like that. Yeah, he was a guy who was like a just a solid, like a rock of a man who, if you need help, he was the first one there. He led the church moving crew, you know, every time, you know, he's he's there. Um, and all I could think about after he passed was kind of like, what, you know, how did he get to be like that? And it was almost as if there was a picture in my head that just kept recirculating. And it was like every morning I would come downstairs from my room, and there was my dad at the at the kitchen table with a bowl of some disgusting cereal, like grape nuts, or something like that, caked over with protein powder, but reading his Bible, just every every day, reading his Bible, eating the cereal. And I just kept thinking, man, if if if reading the Bible could generate the kind of life that I witnessed in him, then I've I've gotta figure this thing out. I I gotta I gotta learn what's in there. And to be honest, that was the beginning of everything is like a sense of like wow, there something about his investment in Scripture transformed him. And um it became like uh, man, nothing else makes sense to me right now. I've gotta I gotta study this, I gotta read that, I gotta learn about this. Um so I you know I didn't hear a word, an audible voice. I I but in my heart was like nothing else really matters to me except I have to learn more about this and well, give myself to it.

Joel Lawrence 18:28

Yeah. Amazing

Jeff Hubing 18:30

So to wrap that story up real quick, I went back from my senior year after he passed, I finished, but the only reason I finished was so that I could get into grad school. So I that that was the beginning for me. And I had a mentor and friend at that time who had gone to Wheaton College. So I took a year off after my undergrad, and with his help, I studied uh I read through an Old Testament survey, a New Testament survey, an intro to theology, and I learned Koine Greek going through I think it's Machin's little green reader, um, so that I could pass entrance exams and start uh a master's at Wheaton, which is what I ended up doing. And that's where the journey of like biblical and theological study uh, you know, kind of began in earnest for me.

Zach Wagner 19:22

Jeff, so much that we could unpack from that story. Um really amazing to one, to hear about the man your dad was and the way the spirit was at work and God's word was at work in his life to bring about godliness such that it was perceived so clearly by you as a young man. Yeah. Um that's really, that's really something special. And also I'm struck, I uh you know, I don't have an experience like that in my own life, but my wife's father was diagnosed unexpectedly with a brain tumor in his late 30s, and he passed away when she was young. And um, you talk about the different ways that people process loss like this, and even communities can process it. You mentioned in passing kind of doing everything you could do, praying, healing, laying out of hands. I wanted to hear you unpack because there are certain Christian traditions where you know a dad of young kids gets cancer and you're sad about it and you're kind of praying for it, but there's there's not much expectation of healing if if people are honest. They're like, well, cancer kills people and we we're gonna support the family and pray for them, but no one's really in their heart of hearts hoping that they're gonna be healed. That just the faith doesn't kind of manifest that way. In the context that you grew up in, I imagine that wasn't the case. There was a genuine belief this is the type of thing that God can do, and this is the type of thing we're gonna pray expectantly about. And then, and then it it in the first case, like the dad dies, and you're like, well, we kind of knew that was gonna happen all along. But in a context like yours, I imagine there's a lot of sadness, confusion. Not that there isn't any other case, but I talk a little bit about how your family, your community processed that, and you reflecting uh reflecting back kind of after your theological education. What's it what's it like? I just kind of want to hear you talk about what's it like in an assemblies of God context to be praying for healing. Like if anybody quote unquote deserves to be healed, it's this man. His children need him, his family needs him, and then it doesn't, it doesn't happen. Yeah, talk a little bit about that.

Jeff Hubing 21:46

Good night. I mean, this could be an entire podcast. Of course. This conversation is I don't mean to be flippant here. It it's it's a serious conversation for sure. And there's so many things that could be said about it. Uh I think in terms of where we were after, I think two things are important to note. One is I don't know that there was a whole lot of processing like we would think of today. Sure. Um today, someone goes through that and our and we're like, man, how can we help with some counseling? You know, how can we set up some visits? You know, how can we help people talk through it? I mean, this is the early 90s. We're not gonna do that. Nobody's talking through it. You know, you're just kind of like, oh man, that's really terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. Okay. Well, anyway, what's next? You know, I'm and I, you know, my my background is Dutch and Luxembourg. So we're not talking through a lot of things anyway, to begin with. So I I want to first note, like, yeah, processing, I don't know. I don't know if there was any processing. Yeah, no. Um in terms of, hey, how are you feeling? You know, let's get I I yeah, I don't remember any conversation. There may have been some, I don't remember many. Yeah, but the second thing I want to say is I I do feel we were helped from the Bible about this. I remember one of the stories that really spoke to us in those early days was David's uh seeking God for his child, you know, with Bathsheba, who who God said would have to have to die. And, you know, this story of him fasting and praying and and seeking the Lord, and then when the child passes, getting up, getting dressed, taking a shower, eating dinner. Like there's a certain sense of, well, look, we did everything we knew how to do. In the end, you know, God, God is God, He's He's the boss, and we we gotta move forward. You know, we're not we're not concerned about our dad. We know he's fine. It's just now that now we gotta figure out what's next. So I there was a sense of like, listen, we're gonna do everything we know how to do. Um, and in the end, he's still God, and he he doesn't do what we say, you know, he do, he does what he wants. So there was a I do feel like even in our community at least, um no one came up to us and said, you know, you didn't pray hard enough, or well, is there some hidden sin in your life? You know, right there was at least a degree of of maturity and respect about it to know. Know, like, even even though we believed and we sought God that Jesus is the boss. And if he doesn't do that, then that's a thing we have to carry with us. Um for me, you know, and this is part of the interesting story, part of my own reflection on it. Is like I don't feel like I had a lot of unrest about it. Yes. Um I was struck by that as well. I still wondered, like, man, what was that all about? Did and you can't, I don't know, you can't to me, I can't help but ask, did we miss something? Was there is there something else we could have done? What did is this uh an area that we need to, you know, we could have grown in or we could have accessed this healing power. I I think it's natural to ask that, but I I experienced, man, this would be almost I guess it was um a decade later, I was uh asked, man, this is a random story, so if if it's too long, we can cut it out. But I I was asked to teach as a substitute in a Sunday school class at a church that I was a part of at the time. And the subject matter of the day was Job. And I was like, uh, sure, you know, I'll teach the class. And I had never, you know, to me, I never never would compare myself to Job or anything like that. It wasn't that to that level. But that day, I ended up, well, in the process of preparing for that day, I ended up noticing something that, I mean, it's the first time I ever noticed that maybe other people are like, oh yeah, that's obvious. But first time I ever noticed it was that Job in that whole, in that whole narrative, never gets an explanation for what happens to him. I mean, the readers get an explanation. We we get to read Job 1 and 2, but as far as we know from the story, he never found out. Instead, you know, God confronted him, listed his credentials, you know, created the universe designed the thing. Uh you know, like he got

Zach Wagner 26:50

I think it's four houses of snow, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Hubing 26:53

He got what he asked for, which wasn't a confrontation. Job thought he would plead his case, but instead the Lord, you know, just kind of reminded him, you know, I'm God and I'm running the world, and you're gonna have to decide. You know, do you trust me? Are you gonna worship me? Is that enough? And in that moment, I felt in my own heart, like, you know, I I may never get an explanation for this, and I'm gonna have to decide, is he is he enough? Um, and even then, reading the first couple chapters and thinking about it, like, is this story about Job or is it about God? The whole thing that the enemy challenges is God's testimony about Job. Yeah, it's never a question in God's mind whether Job is upright. He says so in the first paragraph. You know, it's like so I'm thinking to myself, like, man, what if this just isn't about me? What if what if it's about God's testimony about my dad or my family or what what's coming next? I have no idea really. And it it was kind of a decentering moment where I I had to decide, am I gonna live my life thinking about what I'm owed, what I'm deserved, or what, or you know, what I'm doing right or wrong.

Joel Lawrence 30:03

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Hubing 30:03

Or am I gonna res, you know, I'm gonna am I going to embrace that testimony and say, you know what? Uh God, I have to judge. Are you competent to run the world? And if so, then I'm I'm right to worship you and I'm right to let this unresolved thing um sit before your feet. And if you ever want to speak about it, you can, but I I'm not gonna hold my love, my obedience, my worship hostage until you give me what I want. I'm not doing it. So that was like, I think it was 2002 or 2003, and really I I felt and still feel like okay, I I don't know, I don't understand, but I'm I'm okay with not knowing or understanding.

Joel Lawrence 30:50

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 30:51

I may never get an explanation. Like Job, I believe there is an explanation. I I just may never know it until you know all things are resolved. So yeah, so that's the long way of discussing how how did you handle that? Where are you at? I mean, that's those are kind of the two phases of I think dealing with it on my end.

Joel Lawrence 31:14

Thank thanks so much for for sharing that story with us and that journey. And I'm I'm I'm struck by your kind of drive to ministry, drive to study, is coming out of this tragedy. Yeah, but a but a goodness of who your dad was, and and and I I think that's each of us has a there's a drive within us that's that that's that's calling us in this direction, but yours isn't like a you got enamored with theology, and that's what brought you into this. You were you were confronted with some big questions about who God is, and and that was what was compelling you in this journey. I I would love to hear how, as you then went to Wheaton and went into more of an academic kind of a setting, an institution, how did that play out for you? Did you did you find yourself feeling a bit of an outlier there? Did you find yourself really resonating with the kind of academic study of theology? How did that play out?

Jeff Hubing 32:31

Good question. I felt a little bit like an outsider for sure. I felt like I was walking into classes as the guy who snuck in the back door. Um, you know, having no background in the in these things and and, you know, sitting in classrooms with people who had gone to Wheaton or who were, you know, coming from Trinity or somewhere else.

Joel Lawrence 32:54

And yeah.

Jeff Hubing 32:55

Um but man, my experience at Wheaton was amazing. I felt so encouraged and supported by faculty and I'll never forget my first Greek exegesis class. Guys, you know, I went through this primer with my friend, okay? So I'm sitting in Greek exegesis with Norm Erickson, who I think at that time had been at Wheaton for like 30 years and was a consummate educator. And I remember like after the first or second class, just going to his office and saying, I don't think I can do this. I, you know, here's I've just barely finished this little primer, and you're asking me about things I don't really even understand. Should I just drop this and you know, do some remedial work? And he looked at me with a kind of mercurial, you know, glance, and he's like, let's just give it a try. You know, he's like, I'm like, are you kidding me? You know, so but man, it Greek ended up being my favorite class at Wheaton. I just loved it, and I loved um the detail of it. I loved the possibilities of it. I've I realized I didn't even know how English worked until I started studying Greek. You know, it was just it was a revelation. Awesome. It was so fun. So I I dug into it and I I loved it. I loved every part of it. It was um so enjoyable to sit there and think and learn and study and write. And um I had a number of of uh students that just I would we would sit for hours and and talk and and write and and then do extra stuff on the side that we weren't doing in our classes. And I look back now, I think, man, that what it's crazy having so much time on your hands. Um, but it was it was awesome, and it's part of what led me uh to keep going on the PhD level. Um so overall, yeah, I felt a little bit like a fish out of water, but that didn't last very long because yeah, the environment was just so encouraging, and yeah, there were just people there. They wanted you uh to succeed. That's how I felt. I felt the faculty were like, you can do this, we're gonna help you do it. Uh you got a call on your life, and and we want to be a part of that. And so it was really sweet.

Joel Lawrence 35:22

So the when you went on to do the PhD, you continued in New Testament studies. What what did you study? Where was that? Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 35:32

I went to Loyola University in Chicago. Um, followed a couple of Wheaton students who went there ahead of me, kind of paved the way. There were a few evangelicals there as well as some Roman Catholics and others. I did scripture at Loyola. So they had two programs at the time. One was a like, I think they would call it today like constructive theology, and the other was New Testament, or I think my official degree was New Testament and early Christianity.

Joel Lawrence 36:01

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 36:02

So it was, you know, 300 BC to 300 AD was the general focus. But my work was primarily uh in New Testament, and then my my dissertation was on Galatians. So I've I'd be you know kind of focused on Paul um more than anything else whenever I could.

Joel Lawrence 36:20

Yeah, yeah. So um with that educational journey, um you're calling to pastoral ministry. How does that developing during this time and and where are you starting to live that out in this season of your life?

Jeff Hubing 36:38

Such an interesting question because I on I don't know that I ever felt a calling to pastoral ministry. I was just in it because I never left the church in the context of my studies. I yeah, all throughout master's, doctorate, uh post, I've always, both by just uh I feel like the leading of the Lord and by conviction, I've just always engaged in the work of the church. I started out as a volunteer in in youth ministry, just man, help wanting to disciple young people and then work part-time in various roles, assistant pastor this or teaching pastor that. And then um while I was doing my doctorate, I was offered a full-time position at a church, which I felt like maybe was the responsible thing to do since I had just gotten married and we were talking about having kids. And so I I started serving in that role while I was A B D and you know, trying to finish up the dissertation. So it just it became it felt like the kind of natural outgrowth of what I was doing was to say, hey, if these things that I'm learning are right and helpful, then I want to turn around and invest in the people that I'm living with and doing life with. And um, so I I don't know, I it felt like natural, I guess it felt natural to me to just serve and stay connected. And I think always in the back of my mind was this conviction that okay, if these things are right and true, they should have some implications for everyday life and wanting to find that. Yeah, you know, and I don't know, some things we learn and debate and discuss, maybe they're not extremely practical, but but what is the link? Yeah, and I don't know if it was the grace of God or if it was just the relationships I was in, but I always kept thinking about that, you know, that even while I'm in grad grad classes on Hellenistic Judaism or whatever, I'm thinking like, what difference does this make, you know, to the to the 18-year-old that I'm dealing with going to public high school in Chicago or the single mom that, you know, is a part of our fellowship group. It there was always for me an orientation toward connecting it. Yeah, how does it connect? How does it touch the ground? Um, so that my biblical and theological studies, I I don't know. I don't, I don't feel like I had the option for those things to stay simply academic. I just I feel like they were always um sloped toward what is the practical implication of the things we're saying.

Joel Lawrence 39:38

So uh that that frames well your current ministry context and um kind of whatever story you want to tell between now and then. But you're you're in a unique context amongst at least the CPT community. You're in a house church context, kind of leading this house church movement, which I think fits so well with what you've expressed. Well, it fits so well what you just described of um of touching the ground and being involved in people's lives in a different kind of a way. That's something I've always just appreciated and admired about you. So tell us about your context and and how your vision of pastoral ministry has been shaped as you've been doing the kind of work that you're doing in that in that context.

Jeff Hubing 40:31

Yeah, that's good. I mean, I think, you know, doing work in house churches is a thing that I never would have imagined growing up. It's not like a thing that uh was on the radar. Um I suppose the the potential for it I I can attribute to the New Testament, where you know, it's kind of how we started. And so I I knew, you know, obviously being a reader of Acts and Paul, that hey, this is kind of the was the early game plan and where when we think of the development of Christian community kind of started there. Um so I think throughout most of my adult life, I've I've tended to be asking questions about how do we recapture some of that, uh relational intimacy, um using our households as kind of like touch points for the kingdom, uh embodying the gospel on your block and in your neighborhood. How do we do it? But I I never envisioned actually planting or leading house churches that God tricked me into, if I could put it mildly. It was not a plan. It was not something I was working toward. It wasn't a strategy. Um, it it happened through a combination of both um having a sense for a direction in prayer and you know, just talking and working with a group of brothers that I had come to be a part of a community with in 2010 through 2012. At the time I was leading a ministry school, small school that, you know, training center that here in Chicago. And in the context of that, we were working together in a local church. And very abruptly in early two on early 2011, no, sorry, early 2012, the the man who was the pastor of that church resigned and moved away with his family to Texas. And guys, there was no plan B. There was no associate pastor, there was no other staff people. It was just a bunch of us that were volunteering and helping out. And so there were going to be two options. Either we somehow carried the work forward or it was going to just kind of dissolve and um folks would find other places to worship. Out of, you know, some conversation and prayer, we just we just kind of felt like, man, you know, why don't we do what we've been talking about? And what we've been talking about was the fact that this congregation met in a building in a part of Chicago called Wicker Park. Wicker Park is a very costly neighborhood to live in. And the only people that live there are either very wealthy or they have like four or five roommates, so they can't afford a two-bedroom apartment. So what was happening is, you know, this all of us who are part of this community, we were driving into Wicker Park to have meetings and then going back to the neighborhoods we lived in, which were like 15, 20 minutes away, more affordable, you know, up places where we could, you know. So we were living our lives and then just driving into this other neighborhood for worship services. And I think at a certain point, we felt convinced like this can't be the best way to do this. And so, you know, it's through a series of conversations and time spent in prayer and fasting, it was just like, you know, I why don't we just do this? Why don't we see what would happen if, you know, with whoever remained after the pastor and his family left, which was maybe 50% of the group. So I'm it's not a large group, maybe 40, 50 people. What would happen if we walked this group toward the idea of having our worship and connection and prayer being localized and trying to plug in to a small group of people in a neighborhood and you know, grow together, make disciples, reach people, um, and build one another uh in very organic ways. And we started doing that in 2012. Um, and here, you know, 14 years later, we're still at it. It's um, I don't want to over-glamorize this. You know, you know, sometimes you think about households, you're oh man, it must be so sweet. And yeah, man, you you get intimate relationships, and yeah, of course you do. But that means also people are up in your intimate relationships all the time.

Joel Lawrence 45:17

And so there is a sense about this that's like, all right, you make sure you know what you're asking for because there are very intense moments of and we have to deal with things, and you know, what is what is it, what does it look like on a like a day-to-day for you in shepherding this community, being part of this community? Just talk to us about your kind of your pastoral rhythm.

Jeff Hubing 45:43

Yeah. Um, well, one of the truths about our work is that I'm not the leader of it, but we have a team of elders that I'm a part of. So there are six of us that work together to kind of what I would say kind of steer or guide the overall work. Um we have six house churches right now, maybe 150 people, you know, all told. So it's not a big group, um, but we do make a priority of making sure that, you know, it's uh we we are sharing the work and trying to do this together. Um my wife and I currently host and lead a house church. We haven't always done that. Sometimes we don't host or lead, and we visit the other churches and just kind of spend time cultivating folks in those communities. Uh each house church also kind of has its own rhythm, I would say. Like some of them they have uh Bible study every week, you know, in addition to meeting on a Sunday. Some of them meet for prayer, some of them have like guys' groups and ladies' groups that meet. Um so it there is a lot of freedom with each church to kind of think about like, okay, what are the needs of the people here? Which might differ. Uh, we we definitely have different like demographics. Some of the house churches are very young. They have like folks in their early 20s and college students and all that. Others are a little bit older, maybe you know, more mature couples in their 40s and 50s. And then some of them are a mix. So we found a lot of advantage in saying, hey, we we don't do a lot of programming for for all the churches. Uh we're really comfortable with like I what I think about is like my main responsibility is to train and equip leaders for these churches so that I want to spend time with them. I want to help them develop biblically, theologically, I want to give them strategies for helping people grow. And then I want to let them do it so that they can see that they're capable and that, man, Jesus is good and the spirit can provide what they need to help in the context of everyday life. So, my weeks, all that to say, like I don't I don't have a super predictable rhythm. There are certain things that are programmed in. Like we meet with our eldership team at least uh once a week for two or three hours, sometimes more than that. Um, I typically every week we'll have a one or two or more meetings with, you know, guys or couples or you know, you know, just helping them walk through decisions. Discipleship related things. Some weeks we we might be having classes going on or prayer gatherings in the evenings, or uh, and then I hope to program in some time in there for reading my own on my own and studying and writing. But it really varies a lot depending on the rhythms of the community in terms of weekly commitments. Um, so some weeks could be chalk full of stuff. Like last month we had a week of prayer and fasting, and we every night we had a prayer meeting somewhere. Uh, we did it with six other congregations in our city. So it was really cool. We we moved around, we had different churches hosting and um had one night was uh worship and prayer in a local coffee shop that just opened up their space for us, and that was really awesome. But then, you know, the next week was pretty chill because everybody was spent. So we did try to we do try to orient to like net, you know, rhythms of life, they can they can help, you know, to pay attention to those things. And other times you kind of, man, let's dig in and let's sacrifice some of our normal rhythms to get at some foundational or fruitful thing.

Joel Lawrence 49:43

So, Jeff, let me just um close with one final question here, and that would be um kind of your encouragement to pastors out there who are listening, the the vast majority of whom are in a different context than you are. But just from your perspective and kind of your experience, what what words of encouragement would you give to pastors who are faith seeking to faithfully shepherd the church today?

Jeff Hubing 50:14

Yeah. It's a good question. I I know that folks you know in the CPT and beyond are coming from so many different uh congregational contexts. And so I don't I don't want to over oversimplify this, but something that has meant a lot to me and to the work that we do is as a leader, uh I would encourage them to think in parental terms. Uh I think this is an important vision of the church in the New Testament, that of household or family. I think that God is father, I think that um Jesus is the is the Lord of the household. I think that Paul uh envisions himself at times as a as a parent. He references himself, he calls himself a father to the Corinthians and the Thessalonians, he calls himself a mother in Galatians and First Thessalonians as well. And I I just would encourage us all to think about uh what does that mean to to lead with a parental vision? And you know, for me, I have four kids, some of some of whom are grown now and out of the house, and I and I think about what was what were my goals as a father. And something that's very important, I think, in terms of New Testament leadership, is that we don't simply think that we are being successful by collecting an increasing number of people to sit and listen to us talk. I think there is a temptation um in leadership of measuring success by the number of people in the pews, and in in the chairs, attending meetings. And I would encourage us to think about instead the number of people that are we that we are mobilizing, that we are building and releasing into the work of the Lord. Um, I've told my kids this, and I, you know, I re regularly we remind our churches. Our goal as parents is not to have our kids 40 years old and living in our basement, you know, under our roof and depending on us. Our goal as parents is to raise our kids and release them into the world to start their own households. What would church ministry look like if that was our view, if that was our grid? What would pastoral leadership look like if our primary ambitions were shifted from the sanctuary, as it were, like you know, collecting a congregation and growing it and measuring that by meeting size? What if it shifted to saying, man, how many young men and women are we raising up and releasing into the work and helping them plant churches and helping them start, you know, the work of discipleship and building communities of their own? Like what would it look like? How would it be different? Um, so for me, I want to think of the work like I think of raising my kids. I I know that in some ways I'm always gonna be their dad, but the way I'm gonna be their dad is gonna change as they mature, as they grow. And I want to equip them so that at some point they can be the mom and the dad to their own kids. And and that that isn't a slight on my parental leadership. It is the fulfillment of it.

Joel Lawrence 53:49

That's a great word. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sharing your heart. Uh, so grateful for you. So grateful for your presence with CPT and the work that you're doing uh to serve the church. So thanks, brother.

Jeff Hubing 54:06

You are so welcome, and you guys are so gracious and kind. Thanks for having me and letting me ramble here. Uh, it's a beautiful opportunity just to connect. So appreciate you both and the work that you all do. Thanks. Blessings.

Zach Wagner 54:20

Good to have you, Jeff. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastortheologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Mags. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Prequar. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Rae Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.