BONUS | Jeff Hubing on Books and Preaching

In this short bonus episode of the Pastor Theologians podcast, Jeff Hubing discusses preaching within the context of his network of house churches. He explains that pastoral leadership is not simply about delivering sermons but about equipping and empowering the whole church to participate in ministry. Jeff recommends Robert Banks’ Paul’s Idea of Community and Gordon Fee’s Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God as influential resources that shape his vision of church leadership, community, and Spirit-led ministry. 

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Transcript

Zach Wagner 2:32

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner, joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence. Hello, Joel. Hello, Zach. And we have back for a bonus conversation. Jeff Hubbing, a longtime CPT fellow, serves as a pastor of a network of home churches here in Chicago, near where the CPT is headquartered. Hello, Jeff. Welcome to have you back.

Jeff Hubing 2:58

My friends, good to see you. Thank you.

Zach Wagner 3:01

Yeah. So over to you, Joel. What are we doing for these bonus conversations?

Joel Lawrence 3:06

Yeah. So over the last little while, we've been recording these kind of uh bonus conversations on preaching and on um resources that have helped us as communicators of the gospel. And um so wanted to have have this conversation with Jeff, who, if you'll listen to the main podcast, you'll hear a bit more of a story. Um Jeff is in a network of home churches. Uh and so I imagine preaching might look a little different for you than for many of us. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the context of what preaching looks like for you, and then tell us about a resource that has helped you.

Zach Wagner 3:45

Before you answer that, Jeff, we uh we uh, you know, peek behind the curtain. Perhaps people won't be surprised to know we just finished the previous conversation with you. It's not like you're talking next week or a few days later. Yeah. But one of the things you said towards the conclusion of that is your metric is not getting people to sit and listen to you for how you think about what success in a church context is. And you know, that's what that's the way I think a lot of us think about preaching, either consciously or subconsciously, is if I'm preaching well, it means more people want to come listen, listen to me give sermons and maybe have a higher tolerance for me to give longer sermons or whatever the case may be. You're are you're starting this conversation from a baseline. That's that's not the way you think about it. So I wanted to give folks, maybe who are listening to this conversation, some context if they missed the previous one, because as Joel says, this is an interesting, interesting um and unique context in which you're you're preaching the gospel here. All right, over to you, Jeff, with all of that. All of what you got.

Jeff Hubing 4:49

Yes. Okay, so let me say this preaching is not something I do very often. And I know that for some people in pastoral ministry, that could sound either heretical or maybe downright um irresponsible. But in my particular world and what God's given me to do, um, there are times when I may go weeks without preaching. Um now, I will often be I will often be teaching, I will often be mentoring. Some people might refer to it more like coaching or having very helpful, hopefully, conversations with folks, helping them prepare, that kind of thing. Um but I don't view my foundational responsibility in our community as simply uh based around what I do uh in the pulpit. Um I'm happy to teach, I'm happy to preach, and there are some situations that make sense for that to happen, but often I feel like I'm most successful um when I'm not doing that, but rather I am helping other people to learn how to communicate. Um we do meet in house churches 75% of the time. Once a month, we typically get all of those people together in the same room. And that takes the shape maybe more of a traditional worship service, where you'd expect there to be singing and you know, uh um preaching or you know, kind of a message in that kind of context. But in the houses, um that may not happen like you you could imagine it happening in a in a larger auditorium. Most of the things we do in the houses uh are a lot more conversational, they're a lot more engaging with people and inviting observations and contributions from folks typically centered around the text, but also, you know, with an eye to giving space for people to contribute, uh, which is one of the values I feel very strongly about in pastoral leadership, which is my voice can't be the only one heard, you know, in a gathering of the saints. Um I am uh a continuationist, okay, by confession. I believe in the Spirit's gifts and the voice of the Lord being able to be demonstrated in the context of these gatherings. And so my ambition is not just that I can deliver a good message, although I'm happy to do it when when that's the thing the spirit is uh leading us into. My ambition is to create a context in which God's people can build each other up. And that could be through teaching, that could be through preaching, that could be exhortation, it could be through encouragement or prophecy or other things. So I I don't uh want to communicate about this in a way that suggests that preaching is not valuable. Uh I think it is. I think my life has been changed through fantastic and powerful preaching. But I do want to be clear in the sense that I think that is only one way that leaders have the ability to shape and build the church. Um and so it is a way that I that I lead, but it's not the only way, and it maybe is not even the primary way.

Joel Lawrence 8:36

Yeah, yeah. That that's really helpful. Uh kind of get the lay of the land of your context and the conviction behind that. Um and so appreciate it. You know, the last three years we've been having this conversation about preaching with the CPT. And I think one of the themes that has come over and up over and over again is we have to do a better job of embedding proclamation within the total life of the church and not not have it be this kind of set apart thing that carries so much weight that then what we look to are particular kinds of preachers who can maybe be the ones who can quote unquote carry that weight with oratorical style or whatever it might be. But if if if proclamation of the word is is in knit into the total life of the church, and it takes a different flavor and it can look different in different contexts. So that's super helpful to hear. All right, in in light of all of that, as you do think about preaching, is there a resource that has been been helpful for you or uh a book, uh something that has kind of shaped the way you think about this?

Jeff Hubing 9:54

You know, it's such a good question. And maybe I'm being challenged myself to think more about this, but most of what I've learned about preaching has I feel like it's been through osmosis. It's been through hearing and and experiencing people that, in my view, have been able to distill and communicate. Uh so because of my particular route, I never had a homiletics class in my life. I was just not a part of the MA or PhD programs that I was in. So when I even when I think about what I do when I teach, when I when I preach, it really, it really is not a thing that I feel like I learned in a book, but I am gonna commend. I'm giving you a bonus today. I'm gonna commend two books for you. Wow. If you would see these along today.

Zach Wagner 10:52

If nothing else. Yes.

Jeff Hubing 10:54

These books have shaped my mentality. Okay. So it's perfect. They're not so much about style or tactics as they are about how do I conceive of what I'm doing in that moment.

Joel Lawrence 11:06

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 11:07

And one book that I want to commend is uh is a book by a guy named Robert Banks, and it's called Paul's Idea of Community. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I'm commending it is because I believe it frames the work of leadership in the context of, again, family and house and you know the the identity of the church as a as a family. Banks does a great job of carrying that on. So look, when I think about what I'm standing up to do, let's say I am preaching, I'm still, I'm still trying to function uh as a member of God's household who is seeking to develop and strengthen and ennoble and empower people in the household to work together to advance the agenda of the king. It it was a very sweet read for me. It it's academically informed, but you know, easy to read.

Joel Lawrence 12:05

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 12:06

And I really love it because it it helps me to think about God's people and not just about my vocation, which I think like defining and refining our sense of vocation is important, but we are tempted at times to get lost in that.

Joel Lawrence 12:23

Yeah, and it can become a very self-absorbed kind of a kind of a journey. That's my concern. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want that. So thinking about vocation, but again, like like for the community, embedded in the community with real clear sense of why we have this and what we're stewarding and for whom, right? Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 12:44

And having a sense of like, how would you talk to your kids?

Joel Lawrence 12:47

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 12:48

You know, if they're going through certain things. I think sometimes we stand up in front of these churches and we just let it rip. And and we're not like, would you talk to your kids that way? You know, it just makes me wonder where we're coming from in this dialogue.

Joel Lawrence 13:01

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 13:02

And yes, there are times to be stern with our kids, but man, we're not we're not doing sternness because we're seeking to shame or embarrass or which hopefully we're trying to correct and build with hope. And encourage. The book for me was formative because I thought I want to, I want to have a right grid for who I'm standing here talking to.

Joel Lawrence 13:25

Yeah.

Jeff Hubing 13:26

Uh, and and that was just very very valuable. What's our bonus book? What's our what's our book number two? Man, this is on my top five books of all time. All right. And it is literally a condensed version of a like thousand-page book that Gordon Phi wrote about 30 years ago. So the the big book is called God's Empowering Presence. And it's literally a you know, a New Testament theology of the of Paul's view of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. But he two years later, he published a small book called Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God. For me, it is a brilliant integration of pneumatology, eschatology, and ecclesiology, like all three wrapped into a grid that says, Hey, leaders of God's people, can you please be this? Yeah. Can you please be a people led by the Spirit, empowered by God, with a grid for what it means to live in this already not yet weird kingdom confaboration, whatever it is, and still bring life and hope and partnership and fellowship with God's people for the sake of bearing fruit, for the sake of you know, demonstrating the spirit and the power of God and the life of God in our work. And man, I tell you, I I read that thing again and again because I he has, I think, a real clear grip on the dynamic of Paul's leadership that is both grounded in a confident and clear articulation of the gospel, but also dynamic because the spirit is a part of the congregation. You know, Jesus is a member of his church. And sometimes he just does things without your permission. And you gotta be okay with that, and you gotta learn how to respond in the moment to the leadership and the creativity and the ingenuity of the spirit in the context of church life. So that's my bonus book for you.

Joel Lawrence 15:45

Love it. Thanks, thanks, Jeff. Oh good. I love both those books. Uh so grateful for you commending those. You've I've you've inspired me. I need to, it's been a little while since I've read Fee. I need to I need to pick it back up. It's one I've I've gone through multiple times myself and been very very formed by it. So good, good recommendations. Appreciate that the the framework of all of that and the in the and and your heart behind those recommendations. And we hope that folks will take up those those couple of books and read them and be encouraged.

Jeff Hubing 16:18

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 16:19

Thanks, Jeff, for joining us for this. Appreciate it.

Zach Wagner 16:21

Yeah.

Joel Lawrence 16:22

Thanks, Jeff.

Zach Wagner 16:23

You're very welcome, guys. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Creekmore. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.