In this episode of “Ed Influencers,” ISTE Chief Learning Officer Joseph South interviews Sandy Speicher, global managing director for IDEO, about her early work teaching graphic design to elementary students, the definition of human-centered design, how design thinking applies to learners and how we can all exist together in the digital world. Along the way, Speicher describes her role at IDEO, how she helped design an entire international school system and how she hopes to influence the future of teaching and learning. This episode that unpacks leading-edge thinking in education is not to be missed!
In this episode of “Ed Influencers,” ISTE Chief Learning Officer Joseph South interviews Sandy Speicher, global managing director for IDEO, about her early work teaching graphic design to elementary students, the definition of human-centered design, how design thinking applies to learners and how we can all exist together in the digital world. Along the way, Speicher describes her role at IDEO, how she helped design an entire international school system and how she hopes to influence the future of teaching and learning. This episode that unpacks leading-edge thinking in education is not to be missed!
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Speaker 2:welcome to and influencers, the podcast, the international society for technology in education. I'm Joseph South is these chief learning officer and I'm excited to bring you interviews with members of the Ed Tech community are not just innovating and education that are influencing nonprofits, education, policy and business and are shaping how students learn. Thank you so much for joining that sand Dune. Thanks Jess. So I don't know anyone who ended up in human centered design who actually started out on the path directly to human center design. And maybe as time goes on there's more people who, who sort of have always wanted to be a human centered designer. But I think most people sort of find their way there. Was that, was that what it was like for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually my background is in design a more traditionally I studied graphic design. I worked for many years as a graphic designer. I also spent many years teaching design, graphic design in particular to fifth graders. Fifth graders. Yes.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, you spent many years teaching graphic design to fifth graders. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 3:I can. Um, I loved it. I loved it. I went in every week to a fifth grade classroom in San Francisco. A woman named Janet Welsh was the teacher and she was amazing. She taught me a ton about teaching and also the students taught me a lot about what it really means to design. So what did you mean by that? When I first started teaching I brought big ideas. You know, my feeling was always that designed can do big things in the world. You know, working with 10 year olds, you really have to find what's essential, what matters, what matters to you and what matters to them. And a lot of that was about showing them the creative capacities that they have and helping them know that that can apply toward making life better for someone else.
Speaker 2:So you taught graphic design to fifth graders? They did. And then you were also teaching it to adults as well?
Speaker 3:I have, yes. Actually a pretty significant moment for me when I was, when I was teaching at Washington University in Saint Louis, I was teaching again graphic design. You know, I had one of those experiences that somehow like teaches you something about what maybe you're meant to do. They don't come around often. And actually it's really important that we listen when they do. But I remember, um, it happened to be when Bush was also had, had declared war, I had a really big conversation with my students that was about how they were handling this change in their understanding of what was happening in the world. You know, a lot of these students were by a lot of measures, some of the high performers of our k 12 education system, but they were really struggling to accept how complex the situation was. And so they were trying to pretend it wasn't really even happening. And in that conversation I realized there was a gap. There was a gap with how quickly the world had moved, how quickly things are changing. And most importantly, much we could know. The students were saying, we don't want to be at war. We don't want people dying. But we know it's so much more complex than we can even understand. And they were so overwhelmed by it. They wanted to ignore it. And I felt that there was something designed to do to help evolve our systems of education.
Speaker 2:Wow. And so when you have that experience and you sort of have this new realization w did you intentionally take sort of next steps towards design or did you sort of feel your way forward? For Awhile?
Speaker 3:I did. I decided to apply to graduate school. Um, basically take a step back from my professional career and reimagine what I could do with both the capabilities that I had, but also this new, I dunno, new way of seeing this new way of understanding. And so I went back to Grad school and studied education to make sure that I was not making stuff up. You know what I wanted to make sure that I understood learning, that I understood the context of education, that I understood the history and um, that I could take some time off to say what would it really mean to bring these two fields together. What is your sort of definition of human center design? The nice thing about the term human centered design is it's kind of in the title. So it's really about designing for people. Now I know that that sounds like Duh. Um, but actually a lot of people used to design without even talking to the people that we're designing for. Many designers throughout history have used the, what they understood about craft to think, here's how we could make the perfect object or here's how I could make the perfect logo without ever really even talking to the people that it's meant to serve. So human centered design kind of emerged I think across a lot of different areas of the design field to basically say, hey, we should make sure we're connected with the people that we're designing for when we're designing. You know, it seems
Speaker 2:so obvious when you put it that way, but I find in my own practice, I have to, I have to be intentional to reach out to the person who's actually going to use when I'm making,
Speaker 3:of course, I mean we're also busy and actually one of the challenges is we all think we know a lot about people. Maybe because we are one true but also because a lot of our work does involve other people. A lot of our day involves other people and because of that we often think we know, we think we know what people care about. We think we know what they need. And because of that we often forget that it's important to be open and inquire to look for things we may not already know so we can be better designers for them.
Speaker 2:And so interesting when you, um, when I visited a classroom and I just stand quietly at the back and just watch and you know, some of the things I see there I expect to see, but so many things I see there come as a surprise or an expansion, um, to, to my understanding or, or sort of framing of, of what a classroom is and what happens between an educator and a student.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think so many times when we, and the time to actually observe with fresh eyes, you know, what might I not know, what might I not have seen? Then we are more inspired to connect those dots and to think about new things that we could be creating.
Speaker 2:So this was all a sign story here about what design was while you were telling your bigger story about how you ended up as a human centered designer. So you went back to school, you got your masters in education, and then you also a study design as well, correct?
Speaker 3:That's right. Okay. My background is in graphic design. So I studied design and Undergrad and I worked for about 10 years as a practicing graphic designer. And then then when I was teaching and I decided to go back to Grad school, I took that time to really study education. And that brought me to ideo, which is, um, I mean one of the world's leading design firms. And Ido has always been kind of a quirky for him to explain. Whenever I'm in an airplane and people say, what do you do? Perhaps because we're on the edge of questions and we're always wondering what's next, how can the world be different? It's hard to explain what we're doing. But I happened to know David Kelley, who's the founder of Ideo, and I was able to talk with him about the kinds of things that we could do around education and learning and how we could take this design approach and think about how that might help the field of education. He is quite passionate about education. He's created one of the most interesting institutions at Stanford, the design school at Stanford as the d school. Yeah. And he connected me to some folks at Ideo who were working in organizational change, uh, because a lot of organizations were starting to ask the question, how do we bring design capabilities into our own business? Um, and so a lot of my work focused on that at first. And then I said, you know, education, the sector itself really needs us. And so what can design do to advance education?
Speaker 2:So sometimes people say physicists believe that physics is like the base science and all other sciences are built upon it. Or chemists believe that chemistry is the base science and all of their sciences sort of spring from it. As a designer, do you sort of see design as the base science?
Speaker 3:I mean, yes. So I am guilty as charged. I pause because one of the things when I first started focusing in education, one of the things I didn't want to be as another voice yelling at the sector, hey care about this. At the same time, I think that it's important for us to recognize that the world around us is designed. Everything in it has been produced by somebody whose decisions. And um, we also probably can recognize that the world is starting to break down a lot of, not just our, it's not just about that we could have better products, but it's actually that we need better systems. And all of these things are designed decisions that we're making in order to both have agency in the future, but also, um, create those new solutions. We need more and people designing intentionally.
Speaker 2:So it's really interesting that you say that. I've been meeting with, uh, leaders, educational leaders from Paraguay, uh, from Columbia, from the Dominican Republic. And when they talk about their educational systems, they have the exact same issues and challenges we have here. And, and I had sort of a moment where I was like, we've all designed ourselves into the same spot. I don't know why it was such a revelation for me. Maybe because I, you know, sometimes you think that your design issues or your own, um, and you don't think of them as being part of a bigger system. Yeah,
Speaker 3:I totally see that too. And um, I think one of the challenges that we face in education is we all spent a lot of years in school and it's almost like the, it's the water we swam in for so many years that it's hard to separate kind of truth from designed experience. So it feels like things have always been this way. Things will always be this way. I remember when about a decade ago, I first started introducing the idea of design into a education conversations. I would come to conferences. I did not come to this one to Isti, but I was in many conferences and I'd stand up on stage and I'd talk about this thing called design and design thinking and what it meant to think and act like a designer and why it was important. I mean, I think people literally threw tomatoes at me. I it was, you know, I got a lot of criticism for being an outsider, for not really understanding what education is about and it seemed really foreign to most audiences. And then there were a handful of people who said, hey, there is something here. I recognize that this isn't just the way, this is the way we've designed. And because of that, because if that opening, because of that realization, they started to be curious about how could we design things differently now is a totally different landscape, which is I think remarkable. So then we start to see perhaps the desegregation of the way we're doing things right. We start to see new solutions for the way we do school, or the way we design learning tools or the way we design our systems.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think educators maybe film a little bit of fatigue. There's always so many coming to them with a new solution, a new silver bullet, something that's going to fix things for them. And if they picture design and design thinking as a, as another thing that somebody is going to do to them, than they might be resistant. But if they think of it as a way that empowers them, they might feel differently.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The way I like to look at it as, it's the thing they're already doing. So teachers especially, I absolutely love teachers. I feel like I'm so thankful for them. Uh, no, but I love teachers and teachers are actually designing all the time. They are, they are designing curriculum, they're designing spaces, they're designing interactions with students. They are designing the Aha, how students have the Aha. And in a lot of ways, once you realize, oh, that that's a designed interaction, you know, I'm making choices about how I create that experience, then you could, you know, if you start to think about like, well, how do I, how do I actually improve my muscle of design? Because that's what I'm doing all the time. Actually. That's where most of the power comes from. We're all
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Speaker 2:place where a lot of educators have sort of seen design up here, sort of writ large in their world is in the maker movement. And as you know, a lot of schools are creating maker spaces and it's becoming more and more common. I'm really curious, you know, what do you think of the maker movement?
Speaker 3:I love the maker movement. Um, but not necessarily because everybody should be at maker. I think it's more that there are ways that we learn about ourselves in the world that aren't only intellectual. And, um, you know, think about preK or kindergarten, we're super comfortable that kids making stuff is the way that they're going to learn. We want them doing art projects. We want them, you know, creatively constructing, you know, the scenes around them. And in a lot of ways I think you take that into the maker movement and it's a grownup version of some of that, the same heart of that interaction when you're really little, that when you're making stuff, you learn about what's in your mind and you learn about what it means to make that real. I think that's valuable for everybody. That doesn't mean everyone's going to see that in their career. Um, but it also could expose people to a whole pathway that they might not have known about themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know in my own life, um, I was really interested in photography and growing up I had a 35 millimeter camera and I developed my own film and I printed pictures in a dark room. And there was something about the physicality of that. Yeah. That, you know, I don't know how to describe it, but I felt like I knew the world better when I was doing that kind of work. Yeah. And then I do now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I went to art school and had that experience kind of every day. And it's funny how you can sit around and imagine something and it's like perfect in your mind, you know? Right. Got The perfect thing. And then you go to do it and it's just like not what this was in your mind. You know, once you try to make something, it shows you how little you knew about what you were thinking. Um, but also because you're making it, because once you put, you know, you're using your hands, it teaches your mind about how it can think. And so there's this really amazing interaction between what we can imagine and what we can do. I'll tell you there's like a favorite quote that I have. I can't remember right now who said it. Sorry. But it's, in theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're quite different. And that's really true. I think a lot of us really enjoy what our mind can produce, right? We imagine all of these scenarios and we may even do research to, to back it up, but once we start to do it, the world teaches us something different. And so in practice, what we could imagine ends up quite different and we want the dialogue between those two things. Maybe I'm just going to jump into a definition for a second because we talked earlier about human centered design. What we might not have, um, laid out this term design thinking. Um, and I feel like, um, it's kind of assumed in the conversation that we all know what that means, but I think, you know, terms themselves can become alienating until we really understand what they're intended to represent. And in a lot of ways, design thinking is just quite simply about the methods and mindsets of a designer. So if we talked about that it's important that we can solve problems creatively come up with new solutions. We need a set of practices. We need an orientation to really understand how to approach that. That's just like scientific thinking for scientists or mathematical thinking or historical thinking for stories. There's an orientation to the way that we're interpreting and understanding the world. And this is what design thinking is about in a set of methods and mindsets. In order to be thinking like a designer thinking and acting like a designer. And a lot of these things are really a process. It's a set of methods that you can do to go about designing, but there's an orientation to which is about being empathic, being collaborative and being optimistic, believing that if the a better future is possible. And you know, when we combine this with the notion of making that making isn't only about what one's self can imagine, although that's wonderful, but also about how something is received, how it's valuable for other people. And there's amazing feedback to be had in that. Not just look at what I made, but look at what I made and how does it change your life.
Speaker 2:This is why I think in some ways design thinking is a match made in heaven with educators. Because when you list those out, um, empathy, collaboration, optimism, and then, you know, creating something that has meaning to the person you're creating it with and for, that's what educators do. Hope us sort of get a better picture of. If I am an educator and I want to engage, design thinking, you know, how do I start on that journey? But what steps can I take?
Speaker 3:Maybe first we can just say that there are so many different ways this can apply and it's important to perhaps parse them apart there design thinking because I want to help a young person develop that capability. So those, I want to teach it, you know, I want to help create change makers. I want, I want the students I'm working with to be designers. That's one thing. Another thing is I want to solve a problem. I want to make my school better. I want to make my community better. I want to make my classroom better. Um, there's a problem, I want to solve it. That's actually a different perhaps entry. And then there's also, um, how my school works, how the culture of my school works. And recognizing that that's been designed and that the way we behave as colleagues in a school can actually be the way that designers behave in a collaborative team together because we are constantly designing a school environment. All those things are kind of different. The processes underneath the mother. Same. But the motivation is different for each of them.
Speaker 2:I mean for me it feels really exciting to think of myself going into work every day with a bunch of other people who are also designing something together. Right. That that's the way I would like to think about my work. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, it can be really inspiring. Um, one of the things that we've been doing over the past couple of years is um, we created a fellowship for school leaders that's about designing school culture. This is called school retool and it's currently run by the d school at Stanford, uh, with school retool. It's really about understanding that the culture of your school is designed. So we're helping school leaders know what it means to then design the culture of the school. One of the first activities we ask everybody to do in that curriculum is to spend a day shadowing a student. And that's because it's so easy to make assumptions about your school. It's really different when you start your day at the bus stop with a kid and you experience what they experience the whole day. And we've had a couple thousand school leaders do that each year for the past couple of years. And um, it's amazing to see what they see, you know, to hear what they see. So we see on Twitter a lot of, um, amazing pictures of, you know, school leaders wearing sneakers are, and having brown bag lunches and feeling like a kid again. But then you hear things like, oh my God, it's only second period and I forgot the login already. Or You know, when to gym class gets so hard or, you know, the kind of, um, you know, realization of how hard it is to shift mentally through the subjects throughout the day. And you know, a lot of kind of deep thoughts about the experiences they're really creating for teachers and students. And it can be incredibly eyeopening was just a simple activity. And so in that category of realizing that school culture is even something that's designed, there are resources for educators out there. Um, one of them is this school retool fellowship, which if you're a school leader, you could look up and um, apply for. And another is this shadow a student challenge, which is, um, there's a bunch of free resources about how to go about this and how to think about it. And there's a week every year that we do this during as a challenge. But of course you could do to at any point,
Speaker 2:a lot of people would love to work with. Ideo has an amazing international reputation, as you said, it's a premiere designed for, it's also a little bit pricey for an educator's budget. Um, so I guess I have two questions about that. One is, you know, how do you, how does it feel to, to be engaged in this work and an also beyond the reach of some of the people perhaps you'd like to help. And then what do you do to, to make it so that people who maybe can't afford to engage you directly can still benefit from what you're learning?
Speaker 3:Sure. One of the things I realized early on is that we can't be everything to everyone and it was important for us to choose what's the space of problem solving that we're really focused on. And um, given that we are kind of one foot out, I like to think of us as one foot in and one foot out of education at this point. But I think especially early on, we were quite outside of education looking in and it felt that given the consulting model that we have and given the talent, the extreme talent that we have at Ideo, that we were best optimized for some of the hardest, most systemic questions that we're facing. I also felt that a lot of the school questions, the questions about what was happening within schools, we're not best answered by us. They were best answered by the people within the schools. And uh, those communities, the best we could do is create sort of high fidelity proof points that different solutions and new futures where possible, but then also support building the kind of creative muscles of the sector. And we've created a lot of toolkits. We have an online community called, uh, the teacher's guild, which is taking design thinking and putting it into a national community of teachers, uh, so that they can have professional learning about what it means to be a designer. We now have started with that district partnerships where districts can have teachers guild chapters and help within their district. Really focus on what are the questions that feel I'm worth solving and how to educators in particular become the front line design team for solving those questions
Speaker 2:and to join the teachers. Get home, you charge for that.
Speaker 3:The teacher's guild is free to join. And we have created the design thinking for educators toolkit, which we collaborated with teachers, um, many years ago to adapt design process for the context of our classrooms in schools.
Speaker 2:So we've been talking a little bit about design thinking on the individual level with me, the individual educators and how they engage school or their own schools. But you know, you also mentioned the systemic issues as big gnarly issues. And I understand that one of the things that you're engaged in is actually designing school from the ground up. Is that right? Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. And so cool is to see this becoming more and more common across the u s one of the things a few years ago that we faced, we had a call from a really impressive business leader in Peru who had said, you know, our country's education system is failing. They were quite, um, they had a quite low ranking on the piece of survey and they said, you know, we want to do all we can to design an affordable, um, international quality education for the emerging middle class in Peru. Hey, can you design us that school model? And at the time, you know, there were not a lot of what I would call'em visible intentional school models. Right? A lot of people had created schools, but maybe a kind of the, the guidebook of what it meant to have designed those schools like didn't exist. Right? So we were like, okay, um, you know, we've never designed a school system before, but we've got a creative process for problem solving. So let's, let's do this. And you know, we rolled up our sleeves, we spent a ton of time in Peru talking with teachers and parents and students and um, and really looked at what the needs and the kind of current state of things were in the country when people really cared about what they wished for. And we spent many months then designing everything from the mission of the schools to, um, how that played out in terms of the curriculum and the pedagogy, what that meant for the, I call it like space and time, the classroom's campus and schedule what it meant for the roles of the teachers and school leader, what it meant for them to operate like a system, not just a school that you replicate, but how they could benefit from economies of scale, what the tools would be. And what the business model would be. We designed everything from the ground up. They did have a handful of schools, but the kind of brief to us was take what you think, keep what you think is valuable and change, change the rest. Let's get a model that's going to work to disrupt our country's failing education system.
Speaker 2:How did it go?
Speaker 3:They're at the point now, it's a few years later and they've, um, they've grown too. They're at 49 schools. They have, I think it's about 35,000 kids, almost 40,000 kids, and they're growing seven or eight a year. And they're seeing really amazing results depending on which measures you're looking at. They're seeing like double or triple performance, um, in like math and literacy compared to the government school.
Speaker 2:Wow. Can you think of some aspect of the schools that that simply would not exist if it, if it wasn't the intentional human center designers working with those schools?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was really important to us that we designed a school model that would work for the people that are the, the realizes of that. So parents and teachers, um, in many ways kids, but also kids were so just like hungry to have a really inspiring learning experience in the educational model in Peru is primarily wrote at the time. And I'm, so there's a lot of teachers saying things in kids' writing, things in notebooks and parents feeling super proud when they feel when they see these full notebooks, you know, this kind of stuff that we would look at and feel that maybe, how do you even know learning is happening? So kids were desperate to have their imaginations engaged. Um, parents were recognizing that the country's education system was failing and they felt they wanted a better future for their kids. They didn't, they themselves didn't know what that answer was, but they knew that certain things were a part of it. There were symbols to them about, um, private, fancy private schools in the neighborhood and what those things were able to accomplish. So we knew the schools had to be beautiful. Parents had to feel really proud to drop their kids off at school. And we also recognize that the parents saw the importance of English as part of the curriculum. And so how we, um, for the future success for their kids. And so we had to really look at how that could be built into the model. And then also for teachers, which, you know, I think some of the deepest design work we did was around the capabilities and the aspirations of teachers in Peru. They really wanted to be part of the change. They did not want to be reading scripts. They did not want to be executing on somebody else's vision. They wanted to make the country better and they wanted that to come from their creativity. So we had to do was really create a system that scaffolded learning for everybody. You know, not just the students because these, the teachers needed help knowing what it meant to teach and learn in new ways that they have not been through themselves. And the parents needed that opening to, they needed to know what good looked like for their kids. So I think a lot of the novas model that's really about a continuous learning system for teachers was really born from the context. And there are a lot of things that we did to recognize the teachers needed new ways of teaching and learning. One was really scaffolding professional development for the teachers, but another was really bringing in some of the best of the world's tools to help students build their own agency and self direction around learning. Um, and you know, help teachers that know how to incorporate that into the experience. So there's a lot that when you look at now we might think like, oh, a blended model that's not that new. But then it was, um, and also I think one of the things that's really remarkable about the way in Nova has, um, has really implemented what the original design vision was, is they have kept the whole system growing and learning as their teachers are growing and learning. So we're really excited about some of the work you're doing with us. Do you mind talking a little bit about that? Yeah, we have, uh, through the teacher's guild. Then I'm looking at the question of digital citizenship. I know that is a movement you guys are making. And um, we were really impressed with that declaration because I'm actually, you know, in a lot of our work with other types of organizations across ido, we are just seeing a constant pain point around digital. The world has really moved in a way toward digital that it's really changing the way that we're living, the way that we're working, the way that we're thinking, uh, what value means in the future and how we talk to each other, how we talked to each other, how we, how we communicate, how we connect, how we consume, how we shop. It's really transforming everything. It does feel really important that young people today understand how to thrive in that world. And I don't mean just by being able to, you know, code yeah. Being able to have a professional, um, contribution to that field, but really recognizing that there's a whole world that exists that doesn't sit in front of us. And just like, we want to figure out how to exist together and the physical world, we need to know how to exist together in the digital world. So these capabilities feel really important to be building. And so we're excited to be looking at that as a design question. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
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Speaker 2:So there's a lot of negative press about education and anybody who's really working hard to change it. And there are so many of us who are, you know, it's, it's, it's a struggle every day. You see the challenges, you make progress in one area and then you visit another school and you realize how far that school might be from some of those things. There's always bright spots and that's sort of what keeps me going. Um, but a lot of the issues in education are structural and are long term and they're going to require big changes and they sort of feel, you know, out of your control. You know, what makes you optimistic about the future of teaching and learning in our schools? Knowing what we're up against despite the best efforts of people move inside and outside of the system?
Speaker 3:It's such a great question and it's a really deep one. Um, I would say it's really, it's really amazing to see what people do with what they learn. And um, I think that we do shoulder a lot of the responsibility and accountability for people's learning and they learn with and without us whether we like it or whether we like it or not. So I feel really optimistic because I believe in people and I believe in people's capabilities and I believe in their interest and their natural state of learning. I also believe in, um, because I've seen so many educators who are so passionately committed to making systems better, but I remember years ago seeing William Macdonald's speak is the architect. One of the things he said that really stuck with me was, um, he, he sort of went through this list of all of the like incredibly painful things that are happening in the world, you know, and, and it was like a 20 minute slide show of like death and destruction. He said, but think about this. It's only in the last 20 years or so that we figured out to put wheels on our luggage. He said, people have been, you know, carrying stuff around forever. And we only recently figured out we could put wheels on our luggage. And what I love about that quote is that we recognize there's a trajectory of time and that we are all in stages of development too. And while we recognize that our learners are going to develop, uh, so our, our systems, we can't give up on the urgency. We can't give up on the feelings that it needs to be better, but we can't let those things take us down either. So I feel optimistic about the future because we figured out to put wheels on our luggage. We're here making me feel optimistic about the future. So thank you and thank you for spending some time with us today, Sandy. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Joseph. It was great to chat with you.
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