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Don't Take the ACT if...
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On this episode, Caleb and Jill dive into the controversial topic of whether you should take the ACT/SAT, or if you might be better off without it? They'll explore scenarios in which taking a standardized test is beneficial for you or not.
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Hey everyone, you're listening to the Simply Smarter podcast. Our goal is to help families navigate some of the areas surrounding the college prep process, which includes providing college and ACT-related advice, not just for students, but their families as well. This is my co-host, Caleb.
SPEAKER_01:Listen each week to find out how students can score better on college placement tests, learning techniques and methods that build confidence, beat test anxiety, and identify strengths within each student.
SPEAKER_00:Don't forget to stay in the note by subscribing to our podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Simply Smarter Podcast. I'm your host, Jill, and this is my co-host Caleb.
SPEAKER_01:Hello. How are y'all?
SPEAKER_00:Give me a second there.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:And today we're diving deep into the controversial topic of whether you should take the ACT or SAT, or maybe you might be better off without it. We'll explore the scenarios in which taking a standardized test is beneficial for you. Or again, maybe not. Right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I guess we'll see.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_00:Don't take the ACT or SAT if that is the show. Yeah, that's right. Right?
SPEAKER_01:Don't take it if.
SPEAKER_00:Don't take it if.
SPEAKER_01:And we're gonna give you some reasons why maybe you shouldn't take it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Here we go. Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:Just come up with nine. There's probably more.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. No, they're yeah. They're everybody has a different reason, right? True. But your nine common.
SPEAKER_00:Common.
SPEAKER_01:Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:So here we go. Don't take the ACC if you don't want to know what you would score on the test. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like if you're not curious. Yeah. If you're not interested, the school all of your schools are test blind.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, okay. Don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01:Don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Just just enjoy your day. Your Saturday morning. Well, laugh at everybody who is who is testing.
SPEAKER_00:Go to Starbucks instead. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And again, I think most students take like the pre-ACT.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Or something like that. And it it's a it's exposure.
SPEAKER_00:It is.
SPEAKER_01:In my opinion. It's exposure to the test, but it doesn't give you a good measure. It doesn't. In fact, even the pre-ACT, the makers of the ACT, when they like say, hey, you should expect this on your ACT, it's like this really broad range of like six scores.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They don't even see a good correlation.
SPEAKER_00:So not the best indication.
SPEAKER_01:It is what it is.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So again, don't want to know where you're scoring on a test. Don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01:Don't worry about it. Not for you. Move on.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Don't take the ACT if you don't want to receive additional scholarships.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's kind of interesting how we've seen this big shift in admissions where they are going test optional or test blind. Test blind schools generally aren't going to use it for scholarships either. But for test optional schools, hey, I can get in without a score, but I may not get any scholarship money. Right.
SPEAKER_00:That's brutal. And then you have to come back and take it again.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00:We'll get into in a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, I mean, if you don't want additional scholarships, who doesn't want more money? Hello? It's expensive.
SPEAKER_01:It's just free money for taking a test.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Why not?
SPEAKER_00:It's like who have to write an essay for an additional$500 scholarship and just don't want to.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And it's like guaranteed. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Doesn't make sense. So yeah. There we go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's fair.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you're not looking at reach schools. Don't take it if you are not looking at reach schools. You don't need a high ACT. Right. Or SAT.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So if you're not looking at reach schools, so tell me what that means to you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I mean any Ivy League school, right? So I mean, if you're going to a state school, maybe 21, that that gets you in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe that's enough. No more scholarships, right? You don't want a scholarship. Yeah, we don't want scholarships. Great. I think that kind of piggybacks with the other one, right? Yes. Yeah. Um, and again, you and again, reach schools can be different for everybody. But again, it's the idea of even if you're going to a state school, like sometimes we get this here at the office where somebody says, Oh, we don't need to do it because she's just looking at a state school. Or he's still he's just looking for an out-of-state school. Well, what does that mean? What does that mean? University of North Carolina and Michigan and UVA, right, UT Austin, or does that mean like you're talking about a school with their admission standards are just a little bit lower than those really selective out-of-state public schools? I think we just need to clarify, and uh sometimes if you call in, help us understand what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00:Give me give us a set of schools that that'll help us guide you a little bit along the way to exactly because there is there's uh you know a gap between those schools too, right? Oh I mean, some could be 28, some could be 32, 35.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I had I had a family yesterday who reached out to me and they're looking at the University of Iowa and they're looking at um Purdue. And University of Iowa is a very good school, especially for engineering, what they were looking for for their student. But again, the student score is probably where they need to be for that. They're they're okay. But Purdue, on the other hand, again, the low end of their average is 31.
SPEAKER_00:I was just gonna say 31.
SPEAKER_01:The low end.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So like to give yourself a really good shot, we probably need to be in that 32 to 33 range at least. And that's just the ACT.
SPEAKER_00:SAT portion of that.
SPEAKER_01:There's so many other factors that go into college applications. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Side note, yeah. That family visited, and the dad came away and was just very impressed with Purdue. Like he'd been around on campus way back in the day, right?
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but it was just like blown away with the quality and all that. So I I don't always had good things in my head about Purdue, but that that kind of re-emphasized them.
SPEAKER_00:Love that. Yeah. Love that journey for them.
SPEAKER_01:Just random.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Put Purdue on a new list. Go ahead. Try it. Try it. All right. Don't take the ACT or SAT if you are attending a community college.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Generally generally sense. Yep, general. Uh however, there's a caveat, right? Always. Uh some students still have to take an acuplacer.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So you have to test to see where you are in English and math and your your writing skills.
SPEAKER_01:100%. Even at a commun at a community college, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And and that's going to lead into the next one. And and we'll kind of I I'd like to pay you back, is that okay?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So don't take the ACT if you don't mind taking a placement test later. Yep. Even after you get into the college. Right. And the dirty little secret is a lot of these colleges are using not only an accuplacer, but sometimes they're using an ACT for placement. Right. So guess what? You didn't get away from it.
SPEAKER_00:And a qualifying ACT is good enough. Right. Because you don't have to take the acuplacer. Right. Exactly. So if you are a Kansas junior or if your state offers that and it's free, go ahead and take it. Right. And see where you lie. Keep that in your back pocket.
SPEAKER_01:Because you're probably going to have to take a test either exactly like it, like the exactly like the ACT, or something that's very similar, like the accuplacer. Yep. Um and I just think why not be as prepared as possible for that test? So maybe you don't have to take a developmental course or two along the way. Or you you get out of college algebra because you already know that information, but guess what? They don't know that you know that necessarily.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and the state of California has created their own type of ACT, right? So you still have to take that to get into some of their colleges.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they're still gonna have placement exams and things like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. So keep that in mind. Just keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So number six, don't take the ACT. If you are confident an ACT or SAT won't help you get accepted, even if a school is test optional.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. I think I think that's true if you are a hundred percent sure. If you are 99% confident, I would still probably lean toward it to be honest.
SPEAKER_00:Look at your college list. Do your research, right? If they are test optional, okay. Dig a little deeper. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, test optional doesn't mean test blind. We've talked about this number of times on the show. I think that we need to make sure that we understand what the individual colleges are looking for and what that what those acceptance rates look like for students who submit scores and those who don't. And it anytime a college doesn't disclose that, anytime they won't answer that question for me, I would get nervous.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just kind of read between the lines, right?
SPEAKER_01:100%. You're exactly right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Just cool. Just infer a little bit and use your reasoning skills like you would on the ACT. Well, we'll build those skills so you could do it even better. Anyway.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. All right. Don't take the ACT or SAT if you're 100% confident that you never want to attend college. It's not for you, right? You don't want to attend college, not for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Why why would you take it?
SPEAKER_00:Right. You don't have to.
SPEAKER_01:You don't have to.
SPEAKER_00:You're not going to college.
SPEAKER_01:Move on. Do something cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There are lots of great careers.
SPEAKER_00:100%.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:So that's an easy one. Yep. Easy, easy. Um, let's talk about academic preparedness, right? So proponents of standardized tests argue that they can serve as a predictor of a student's academic preparedness for college. A strong performance on these tests may indicate a student's ability to handle the rigors of college coursework, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And and and it's not, it it actually is a pretty decent indicator in independently, but in conjunction with grades and th and strength of schedule and things like that, it actually is really, really helpful for most colleges if they're using it effectively.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree. I agree.
SPEAKER_01:I think there are a lot of schools out there having worked in higher ed that aren't using it effectively because they don't understand the ACT. They don't understand the nuances of it, and sometimes they don't acknowledge uh grade inflation, which has been severe. Like it's been insane how much we're seeing great inflation these days. And we I would have said that five years ago, but it's it's man, it's intense. It's even worse now after COVID. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:During and after COVID.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So when I see even when I see some of these schools that are quote unquote semi kind of hybrid test optional, like like uh again, our flagship university here in Kansas, the KU, University of Kansas, they are they they require a student to have a minimum GPA of a 3.25. Again, a 3.25 back in the day, like that's a B plus. Yeah. That's solid work. Pretty stinking good GPA. But again, uh from our students that we work with, I mean, we see students coming in with an average of 3.8 or higher. Unweighted. Unweighted. Right?
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's that's again how colleges are gonna look at it. So I think there's a large chunk of students that are in that 3.8 or higher. And I also think that we've kind of we if we if a student has a 3.0, again, a very good GPA in in general, but in context of today's grade inflation, it's not not stellar.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a nice ACT is good to piggyback off of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, let's let's get the that's even if you get a 21, okay, who's gonna get you accepted at that point. It's a short admission, even if you have a 3.0 and a 21, right? So that's yeah, I think that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Or or And they're gonna be able to see that you are demonstrating the ability. Right. Um, and again, you may if you have a 21, you may not be in in the range where you get out of college algebra or college lit or whatever it may be. They're they're intro basic classes, but in a lot of cases, if you have a 21, you're not gonna have to take the developmental courses, which is good because those don't even count toward graduation. Yeah, they're just required. Required extra stuff. And you're paying for it, and you're still paying for it.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and and let's just go back to the GPA a little bit. So, say you you kind of slacked off freshman year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:Or maybe even sophomore year, or I don't know, senior. All the way through, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like that's you know, take that into account. Like if someone is struggling and they get back on track, but their GPA, you don't have time to catch up.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So, I mean, that's a good indicator that if you take an ACT and again score that nice 21, sure. There you go. Don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nothing to worry about at that point, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00:There's also a correlation with college grades if you take an ACT and score well. So research has shown that there's a moderate correlation between ACT scores and a student's first year of college grades, which is interesting. So this correlation suggests that students with higher test scores tend to perform better academically in their freshman year, which is obviously a plus for colleges. They're looking at that.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:They don't want students who are gonna suck off and just have fun and not even pay attention to their grades.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I think there are two pieces to that. One, they want to make sure that they have students that are contributing, that are doing the part, that are getting the most out of the opportunity. But two, again, if you're gonna fail out of college, that is not gonna help that student. No.
SPEAKER_00:And it's not gonna look good for the college either. Right. I mean, keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_01:If there's a large attrition rate, one, it's gonna look bad on the college. Like, what are you doing? Your admissions policies are not the best right now. Yeah. And two, man, you're just saddling these students with debt that guess what? Maybe they're gonna have an even more difficult time paying off because now they don't even have a college degree because they had to drop out.
SPEAKER_00:Ugh. So much debt for nothing.
SPEAKER_01:Really gross, really, really gross.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, maybe not for nothing. Maybe a nice time and a couple maybe you learned something. Yeah. Not what you went to college for.
SPEAKER_01:Not what you were there for.
SPEAKER_00:A piece of the puzzle, but not not all, not everything.
SPEAKER_01:For sure.
SPEAKER_00:So perfect. Anything else that you can think of offhand that's not on the list?
SPEAKER_01:Don't take the ACT or the SAT. And for class of 2025, don't take the SAT. We're we're too far into that, that process with the big change that's coming with the digital SAT. That's for another time. Yep, that's a different podcast. Yeah, I I'm not really thinking of anything else right off the top of my brain.
SPEAKER_00:Perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Right off the dome.
SPEAKER_00:Right off the dome.
SPEAKER_01:I thought you'd appreciate that. I knew I'd get a laugh. Anyway.
SPEAKER_00:I'm easily entertained.
SPEAKER_01:Can we take a just a minute at the end of this? Yeah. And chat about the AP article that came out last week.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. Yeah. This is, I think, kind of interesting. And I think a lot of families may be interested in hearing about this. So the AP released they released an article in conjunction with some contacts at ACT that showed that the average ACT score has dropped lower. Drum roll. Oh man. All the way down to 19.5.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Last year it was 19.8, which was the lowest it's been in 30 years. Right. And fast forward to this year, it's dropped even further.
SPEAKER_01:That's a 2023.
SPEAKER_00:So 19.5 is the national average.
SPEAKER_01:So national average. And in context, I don't know why they even talk about that number. ACT never talks about the average, and it makes sense because the numbers don't mean anything in context and out of context with one another, right? So there are a lot more students scoring in the 30s than there are scoring less than a 10.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Right? And there are only seven scores, 30 to 36, right? Yeah. But it's not an actual normal distribution. Um, so I think that it really skews things. And when we actually think about the median, uh a 19 is the 53rd percentile. An 18 is the 47th percentile.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And this is actually taking to taking into account not just the class of 2023, but 2022 and 2021. So as we keep moving forward, that's gonna keep dropping. Like that's what that number is telling me is if the average is dropping dropped for the class of 2023, this number, this percentile, is just gonna keep moving downward. Yeah. So we may see in it a year from now where an 18 or maybe even below an 18 is the median. Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_00:No, not really.
SPEAKER_01:That's mind blowing.
SPEAKER_00:I'm actually hoping it. I mean, it does pick up. I don't know. I it it has to. It has to.
SPEAKER_01:I'd like to say it has to be. Oh, your face right now. I know. It's it's pained, right? Like it just hurts. I I think that it could turn around, but I don't, I don't, I'm not gonna say it has to right now. I think there was a lot of learning that was lost during COVID that we will never have back. And maybe once elementary kids who were in elementary school during uh the the worst of the pandemic of the learning side, uh once they get to where we are.
SPEAKER_00:Which is really only a few years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's only it's not too too far, right? Like three, four, five years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think it could start turning around, but I'm not convinced that it's going to happen before then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Especially with again, we we talked about it earlier, the great inflation that's happening. I think there's a a false sense of of security that we know the content when we don't really.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think there's I think it's just a bit of a challenge there. And I'm not I'm not blaming the schools solely for for great inflation, that's for sure. I think I think there's a societal push, I think there's a parental push, I think there's there's a lot of factors going into that. Um, but it it's it's a reality that we're seeing uh kind of on a daily basis for us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah. Uh so like a normal acceptance rate for KU is a 21. Do you think in hindsight that would ever drop down to say a 20?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Like honestly, in night in 2019, KU came out with their most strict requirements, right? They required a 24 for assured admission, which at that time was the 75th percentile. And then the pandemic hit, and they basically wiped that off for most students, because as we talked about it earlier, a lot of students are scoring above a 3.25, and then they lowered it to a 21 for anybody with a 2.0 or above. And so now, again, it's it's not automatic admission for everybody, but like most students are going to get accepted at KU as long as we have a somewhat reasonable GPA and a somewhat reasonable ACT score if we need to accompany that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I don't know if they would drop it more. I mean, maybe I mean logically it makes sense that they would drop it more, but again, I don't know how much these colleges are paying attention and actually understand what the ACT is or what it's doing. And again, the the trouble is that it's not the the averages are going down, which is true, but that just means fewer students are college ready. Yes. So it wouldn't make sense necessarily to drop that requirement when you've already dropped it significantly from a few years ago. Now you're just like setting more students up for failure, right? Thanks. Because if if m fewer students are ready for college, even though it's it's a catch 22 for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I'm hoping for the best. It's gonna increase.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. I I appreciate hope, but I don't know if I would put my eggs in that basket right off the bat. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I like hoping.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's just not a good plan for us, and I'm not gonna expect it. I guess I'll say it that way.
SPEAKER_00:Well, as we conclude this episode, remember that the choice to take the ACT or SAT or not is a personal one. Always, right? Unless you're getting unless you have to, because your parents are making you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, then it's not very personal. Then it's a family decision. But that's still that's still pretty low cost. It is, it is, it is.
SPEAKER_00:So your your path to higher education should align with your goals, obviously, your strengths, and you know, look at that college list and see what's best for you.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And if we can help, even if it's just helping figure out, figuring out does the ACT make sense in my case, right? Let us know. We'd be happy to.
SPEAKER_00:What or when to take the ACT, right? That's just such a the timing is such a big issue for a lot of students too. So you know you want to.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:When is the best time to take that test? So uh if you have any questions, just let us know. We can talk you through it.
SPEAKER_01:Can I tell you the the the time that it's not the best?
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:When you have to take a placement test the summer before you go into freshman year. You haven't prepared, you haven't thought about it, and now it's just thrown at you. I'm just gonna throw that out there. Going back to the case.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have one test left to take it? Here it is.
SPEAKER_01:And we'd be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00:One testing.
SPEAKER_01:Let's I'd rather you start much earlier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Get it out of the way.
SPEAKER_00:Less pressure for sure. For sure. Right. All right. Join us next week, everybody. Thanks for listening. Bye bye.
