A Single Video Essay Changed His Channel Forever

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We talk with Patrick H. Willems about how a filmmaker mindset can build a healthy YouTube channel, even when uploads are slow and videos run close to an hour. We unpack what finally made his channel click, why a single thumbnail and title change can rescue a release, and how he handles fair use without living in fear.
• starting YouTube as a portfolio rather than a business
• learning why viral hits do not automatically build an audience
• committing to a consistency window and discovering video essays
• doubling down on what works without chasing trends
• handling the pressure of monthly long-form uploads
• using thumbnails and titles to communicate the topic clearly
• treating videos like a show with seasons and structure
• building retention with cold opens, thesis-driven essays, and payoff
• using short clips and disputes to manage copyright claims and fair use

Transcript

When A Video Starts Tanking

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I published on YouTube, and in that first hour, it is a 10 out of 10. This is the worst performing thing I have released in almost a year. I tried swapping out the thumbnail and the title, and immediately it started pulling out of its nose top. That very first video essay blew up. I think in two weeks, we doubled the subscriber count that it had taken me five and a half years to build. Again, I've been on here for 15 years, and I should uh be more successful at it. But uh ultimately I'm just like, I'm not good at YouTube.

Meet Patrick Willems

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hey, welcome back to the only podcast, it's here to help you make your stories better. I'm Travis as always, and today we have a great guest specifically for that purpose, Patrick Willows. Welcome to the show. Hello, great to be here. With over 600,000 subscribers, 76 million views, which is a ton, uh, and over 14 years on the platform, probably I think over 15 years on the platform, you bring a lot of experience to the table. And I'm super excited to get into that with you. But for anyone who's new here, that's what we do. We interview creators and help get their stories so that help you grow your YouTube channel. If you're listening to the audio-only podcast, there will be links in the show notes. And of course, if you're watching on YouTube, links in the description. But let's get into it. Patrick, tell us about yourself. What is your YouTube channel about? And then we'll get into your path.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

That is a really good question. And uh I always tell people that uh I I I still, despite as you just said, I've been doing this for actually YouTube recently told me that uh, hey, congratulations on your 15th anniversary of starting the channel, which was a horrifying thing to see. Uh that uh I'm like, I'm still not good at explaining what I do for a living. Whenever I I meet people, I'm always like, oh God, I should I should be better at this by now. But basically, I would say the short version is uh that I make long-form video essays that are primarily about movies, like analyzing cinema, to be clear, not like reviews of new movies, basically uh just any aspect of film that I am interested in at the time. And the videos come out like once a month because uh I I make them way more complicated than they need to be. So they take a while to make. And so yeah, it's it's really just uh, you know, uh stuff about cinema that I am thinking about. That's basically it.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

I love movies and stuff. So I actually this office used to be my home theater. So there's a projector on the ceiling behind me, and there used to be uh a hundred-inch uh projector screen right in front of me where I am now. I love movies. So another reason why I was like, this channel's definitely for me. I definitely want to talk movies and stuff with you. But let's rewind uh over 15 years ago, which by the way, YouTube was a very different place back then, not anything like it is today. But what were you doing before

From Film School To Uploading

SPEAKER_01 2:48

you first pressed upload? What kind of things were going on in your life? What were we up to?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

So uh I well, I was a college student, and uh I was a college student who was majoring in the the super useful uh uh field of cinema studies, where there's all there's a lot of there's so many jobs uh that are out there just looking for people with degrees in cinema studies. And uh and I graduated and I'm like, well, what what how how okay, because like my goal is to direct movies, but like how how do I do that? Uh that there's no clear path to that. And so obviously, I just moved home uh after college to to try to figure things out, and um, and I kind of looked at it like, okay, I feel like there are really two paths I could take. One is the kind of traditional one where you probably move to LA, you could move to New York, and just like be like become like a PA or production assistant for those not in the biz, uh, like onsets, and basically to work like really lowly like positions for years and try to make connections and maybe like eventually someone will like read a script or whatever. Uh but and I and I had no connections to the industry at all. Um and so I was like, that's one way. And then the other way, because and it really, it's the funny thing, funny when I'm like, man, I wish I had done this differently. Uh when I was in college, um, because like YouTube basically came into existence like my senior year of high school. Uh and when I was in college, uh, I wish I had been like making videos and like actively trying to do it then, but um, but I wasn't. Uh instead, I was I was I was making like you know, no budget like feature films that like you know no one outside of like my hometown was gonna see. And um, and it was not until after I graduated from from college that uh that really what kind of kicked it all off was a friend uh just sent me uh a link to what at the time uh was the channel called Freddy W. And I was like, wait, that there are people who were like doing filmmaking on here. It's not not just like, you know, like funny home videos, but like these are people who actually like like went to film school and are making fun short films and uh and then also like tutorials for like VFX and stuff like that. Uh, as I was starting to teach myself After Effects at the time, and I was like, wait, you could you could do filmmaking on YouTube and like have a career there. And so that was what kind of sparked it. And I really started the channel uh in 2011. Uh I graduated from college in 2010, so I spent kind of a year like trying to figure out what to do next. And so at the same time, I started my channel, and then I started a business doing freelance video work. That was that was my like my job, my my actual like source of income for for the for like the like five and a half years that the channel did not make money. And uh, and really the channel was like all like narrative short films for like five and a half years. It's funny, now you know the channel is all video essays. I didn't try making a video essay until uh November 2016. And and so yeah, so uh but but that was really it because I the way I looked at it was I knew myself enough to know that if I'm not making something all the time, if I don't have like an immediate creative outlet, I just I'm miserable, I get just really like anxious, like like antsy and anxious, and I'm like, oh God, I'm like, you know, I'm not doing anything, I'm time is slipping away. And so I was like, I I need to at least be making something. And the way I approached YouTube at the time, which in hindsight is silly, uh, is that I was not actually looking to really like turn uh I was not looking to have a career on YouTube. I was using YouTube basically the way people would use Vimeo as like a portfolio. So my whole goal was make stuff on YouTube that will hopefully like get some attention, and then I will get hired away to go, you know, direct stuff elsewhere. Because also I wasn't, even though the channel was named after me, uh, I wasn't in most of the videos. I was behind the camera. There was like so yeah, there was so little cons like again. This is why the channel, after five and a half years, it had 18,000 subscribers. Uh, even though there were videos on there that had like millions of views, because people would watch one video, look at the others, and be like, these aren't like like that one that I liked. Who why is this called Patrick H. Willems when who is this guy? He's not in the videos. And uh I was going I I yeah, I was going about it in the wrong way in so many ways, uh, because I just would, you know, was not thinking like I I I had no sense of strategy at all. And I was uh and I was just was not looking to like, you know, make the channel into like into a sustainable thing. I was simply just like, look, this like I can't wait to get out of YouTube and just like you know, peace out like at the earliest opportunity. And now, 15 years later.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Only 15 years later. Yeah, only 15 years later. Well, you know, one of the things I I'm looking at at your older videos, like your first couple videos, um, like you said, they weren't video essays. They almost looked like one of them was literally like my video pitch to Marvel Studios. Like, you were definitely doing something different back then. Talk to us about all that.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, they were uh I mean the videos back then, it was uh I remember that first the first year especially, uh, I had so much fun with it because uh right away what like when I I started the channel, it's we're we're seriously come like coming up to I think we're one week away from like the 15 year anniversary of exactly when I started. Uh because I in I think the beginning of June 2011, uh, and I I had like friends that would like you know work on videos with me, seriously, all just like high school friends that I've been making movies with since we were like 14. Uh, and now we were all just like either back home, we had just graduated from college, or our people were, you know, home uh from college for the summer, and uh and I just pulled them all in to help me make stuff. But it was what we decided like and and just announced like, hey, new video every Wednesday. We're gonna make weekly videos, and it would just be like a short film every single week. And so the what was really freeing about it was like because the schedule was so rapid, uh, and and again, at the time I had no sense of strategy at all, it was truly just any idea that popped into my head where I was like, oh great, yeah, we'll just we'll make this immediately. We'll write it in a day, we'll shoot it the next day, uh, I'll then, you know, do post-production for the like the next five days. And and it was just like, and and it, it really like, and that's what was exciting about it. It was just this kind of like, you know, rush of creativity where I'm like, I'm not saying the videos were good, but there was so little pressure on each one because as soon as one is done, it's like, well, that was that week's video, you know, now we've got you know the next one to worry about. And so it was just a lot of like experimentation and just like throwing things at the wall. And uh, and and it was a blast. And yeah, and it it was really just like any any little idea I had for like, you know, some like filmmaking thing I wanted to try or like some scene I wanted to do, or like let's look, let's like parody some other genre or some movie or whatever. And uh, and yeah, and then uh and then a year later, uh I moved to New York City, where I I still am. And uh, and I think just because of the like, you know, everything is more complicated here in the city. Uh the schedule started slowing down, and the videos also got a little bit like uh more complicated and more ambitious. And um, and yeah, but it it really was just a lot of like, you know, little like narrative short films for five and a half years.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

And then, well, see no funny thing is when I look at channels that have been around as long as yours, most of them have like thousands of videos. You only have like about 400. And when you see that, there's usually large gaps of no content. And I don't really see that with you. It seems like you were pretty consistent, maybe not like every week or anything like that, but still like every year, you had multiple a year um as you kind of uh, you know, not just elevated, but kind of changed and transitioned into new types of content. Uh, talk to me about that. I mean, you you did touch on a little bit, but like for so long, um, did you at some point feel like, oh, this is just never gonna be the thing that I I want it to be? Or were you always happy with what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

No, no, it it really was this thing where uh, like I said, the goal was always uh make like have something that then leads to like filmmaking work like elsewhere, like like work for hire kind of stuff. This is this is just a path to like try to to launch a filmmaking career. And so what would happen over like over the years is that even though the channel itself was not growing, there would

Viral Hits And Missed Momentum

SPEAKER_00 12:10

be videos that would, you know, that would like uh that would kind of like, you know, that would pop, that would get media attention, that would would lead to you know to like opportunities and stuff like that. So it seemed like the overall plan was working. Um the real I feel like the real uh the the real point where like the uh the story of like the actual transition into what made the channel finally work was in 2015, uh I released really what was, you know, what uh for so long the video that I was best known for, uh, which is called What If Wes Anderson directed X-Men. And uh because I I I I really had got into this thing of like I love kind of like studying and trying to imitate the styles of different filmmakers and like how can we apply that to different things that like to movies they would never make, uh, you know, and have fun with that. And and that was one that I was pretty confident was going to do well. And um, and we do we we really worked on it kind of like you know for months. We pulled in like a bunch of people to like to build models for it, to make costumes for it, all of that stuff. And then that video, it it like in I think March 2015, it did like blow up. It got like, you know, it got written about in like every major media outlet, and it led to all of these uh all of these meetings with like production companies and producers and stuff like that. And so I right there was so sure that like, okay, it's all happening. I can just, you know, like I don't need YouTube anymore. Like the I I'm basically done with the channel because other stuff is gonna happen. And so I uh I again and I I I know now, I I I learned shortly thereafter this was a mistake, but what I should have done was immediately had more videos like that, like ready to go to build some momentum. Instead, I like didn't make a video for like a month or so after that. And when I did, it was nothing like that video. And what eventually happened is I spent a lot of 2015 uh developing projects with production companies that were like similar to that video. I was gonna, yeah, I spent most of that year uh working on a thing with Vanity Fair that was gonna be kind of like, you know, inspired by that video. And then, you know, their budgets changed internally and they like pivoted from the kind of projects they were planning on making and everything fell apart. And then in, you know, we skip ahead to to the next year. It's 2016. Uh any momentum and any opportunities that had come from that one video have all like dried up. Uh, and I'm basically back at square one, and I'm like, I have no ideas that are that I think are as good as that one, that that I'm as confident are like going to take off. And like back then, like a video going viral kind of meant something in a way that it doesn't really anymore. Yeah. And uh, and so I was kind of like, I don't know, I'm I I kind of don't know what to do. And uh, and so what what happened was in fall 2016, I took a couple months off from making videos and just like took some some time to kind of like reassess what I was doing. So I was

The Pivot To Video Essays

SPEAKER_00 15:28

like, look, uh this the the grand experiment of the Patrick H. Willems channel uh might might be coming to an end because uh it's again, it's five and a half years, and even though there are videos that have like millions of views, um, the channel itself has like like almost no audience. And so I was like, look, here's what I'm gonna do. Instead of because at the time I'd been making like one video a month, and it would always be like a very ambitious, like super complicated thing. I was like, I'm gonna try something different. I'm gonna give myself three months and uh try for consistency and uh in a way that I hadn't before. So I decided I'm going to for th for three months uh have a video out every week, basically return to what I originally started with in 2011. Every Wednesday there will be a new video. And I knew that at this point I could not do like a short film every single week. It was just too complicated. And uh, and so I realized I'm gonna have to try some other kinds of videos as well. Uh, and and I'm like, look, I have a degree in cinema studies. I can, you know, I can speak about uh like like about movies and and stuff like that. And so I was like, okay, I'll do some videos where I actually talk, where like I am kind of like a host and personality in a way that I'd never been before. And uh, and yeah, and I saw like, okay, video essays have started to become more of a thing on YouTube. And so I decided I'd try one as an experiment. And I was like, no one's gonna care about this. It's a video about color grading, uh, but maybe the next week's one will do better. And um, and I was wrong. Uh, that very first video essay uh blew up uh immediately. I think in two weeks, we doubled the subscriber count that it had taken me five and a half years to build. And this time I had learned from mistakes I'd made before, where I was like, okay, this did well. I'm gonna do more of this thing that did well. And um, and you know, I did more video essays, suddenly the channel rapidly started gaining momentum. Uh, and this was now, this was like end of 2016, and skip ahead to summer 2017. The channel had gone from making no money to becoming my main source of income. And so, and then it was, I think, early 2018 that I had to tell like my freelance video clients, I'm like, hey guys, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put the this stuff like away and you'll have to find new people to do your videos because I'm just I'm just like I I have to just do the channel full time.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

What kind of things did you learn in those first couple of months of things actually working? Because doubling down is really important for success, as we now know, right? Um, but what kind of things did you recognize that the audience really connected with in that new series? Because you, like you said, you really hadn't done anything like this before. So it was kind of just I don't want to call it a lark, but like it was a well-educated guest.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, it it it was just the weird thing of this whole time I had like I I was all I was so rarely on camera in other stuff. And I I kind of couldn't believe that I hadn't thought earlier, like, oh, uh what if I I talked about movies, a thing that I do constantly in the rest of my life. Uh I just didn't think anyone wanted to like wanted to listen to me talk. And uh like I did not ever want to be on camera. And uh, and so I kind of realized right away it's like, okay, let's put let's put that aside because I I like you did it and it and it worked, so so do more of it. And a thing that I'd always been really afraid of to like to an extent that it actually hurt my career, was I never wanted to just be the guy that is known for like one specific thing where it's like, oh, I I do this. I I I like it was the thing like when I did uh part of my stupid thinking about when I did the the Wes Anderson X-Men, and then I didn't immediately follow it up with another one just like it, because that was a series, but I was like, I don't want the whole channel to be this series. I want it to be a variety of stuff. I wanna I want to show that I can that I have range and I can do a lot of different things, uh, because I was just you know afraid of being pigeonholed and as just like this person does one specific thing and that's all he's he can do. And it's it's one of those things where I did realize over time that it's like, look, if a thing works out, it's okay to double down on it for a period of time. And then once you kind of actually, you know, build this whole thing to like a greater level of success, then you can uh once you actually have the audience and like uh I guess like the like are are making a profit on it, uh, you know, then then you can start, you know, mixing it up and and experimenting more and trying different things. But I was just like, I was so stubborn for such a long time. And just over time I realized like, you look, you gotta stop being stubborn. And like on the one hand, and this is still my rule about like everything I make, like, I'm only gonna make a video that I would want to watch. I'm not ever, I'm not ever gonna like look at some like popular, trendy topic and be like, oh, well, that's popular. People are interested in that. I'm gonna do a thing about that. Uh, because I'm like, look, if I don't, if I don't have a take, if I don't have uh a unique way to approach that in a way where I would want to watch it, then I'm not gonna do it. And so and it's a thing that, you know, I I can look at again the last like 10 years and be like, oh, I can like I know that I could have a channel with more subscribers if I would be a little bit more willing to like play the game and cover like the things that like get like like by default tons of views, but I'm just like, but I just don't want to. I don't I don't want to make something that I'm not excited about. And uh and that's and so it was a thing where at the time when that first video essay did well, I was like, oh, I'll make more video essays, but they have to be about topics that I am really interested in. I'm not just gonna be like, okay, oh, what's that? Just like all superhero movie uh video essays all the time. I'm like, no, there's like 30 channels doing that. I'm like, I don't care like uh like you know how many views you'll get, but it's also a thing where I do really believe that, like, even though my channel does not have like an enormous audience, it doesn't have millions of subscribers, it has uh been really healthy for a very long time. Our views are incredibly consistent. And I think that is because the audience here knows that, like, you know, I'm I'm only gonna, you know, make things that I that I really care about and cover things and like make a video if I have something to say about this. And uh, and so no one, like, not a lot of people are passively watching this channel. They're watching this channel because they they care about it and they know that I care about it. And so I think I think that has helped, even if, you know, we could potentially have some bigger numbers on there.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah, and uh I mean, to the sense that you're talking about, you have a consistent audience. You absolutely do. And the numbers you get for the size you are is actually super big. A lot of people don't know this, but I mean, I work with so many channels that I see what the average is, and it's definitely less than what you're getting. You're definitely, you're definitely doing the right thing. But one of the things that I look at when I see a channel like yours is because you don't upload very often, and because these videos are like an hour long, like these are you're putting a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in these things. You're also risking

Packaging That Saves A Video

SPEAKER_01 23:18

at some point um one of these being a bomb, and then you're like two months between the next video coming out. Do you ever worry about that? Because for someone who puts out two or three a week, it's like, oh, that one bombs, no big deal. I got one coming out tomorrow. You're like, I put in everything I have for this month into this video. If it bombs, I'm out for like two months.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, yeah. It's uh the the videos we have them out about it's about every three to four weeks. That's the the usual schedule. But I I mean, just recently I had uh like a real moment of like I had I had one hour of like uh true crisis where uh so we're on a very arbitrary schedule, but uh, you know, uh several years back I started being like, let's treat these videos like like let's treat the channel like it is a show and like it has seasons. And uh and the seasons, you know, sometimes they last a year, sometimes they last two years. It's kind of whenever I feel like making an adjustment. But uh, but so at the end of last year, uh we closed out uh our season. Uh we did a season finale, then I took a much needed break, took the month of January off. Uh, then in February, we had uh a couple just like smaller, like in-between season videos that were, you know, never intended to like get the views that a regular one would. It's mostly just like, you know, to put something out. And then our new season started up like like in earnest, uh like the following month. And uh and so you know, we had taken a little bit of time away in a way that we usually don't. And uh and also so uh I'm very involved in uh in the platform and uh Nebula that I'm I'm like a I was there from the beginning with that. Uh I'm like a a part owner of the company. I've I've been I've you know made a lot of like movies uh with the company and uh all of my videos come out uh first on Nebula. They come out usually like you know, about about it's always one video ahead there. So about like three to four weeks earlier. And we released our season premiere there, and the response to it was so strong, where I was I was more confident than I usually am, but like I think we've got a really good video here that I think could perform well on YouTube. Like, like a lot of people saying, like, hey, this is maybe the best video you've ever made. Uh, this was our our one about um about music videos. And and so when when that dropped on YouTube, I was like, okay, let's go, baby. I think we've got a really killer season premiere. And then uh I I publish it on YouTube, and in that first hour, it is initially a 10 out of 10. Uh, it it was and and for you know, for those who are not like who who do who honestly who are better off and don't and don't have to deal with the world of YouTube analytics, yeah, uh YouTube in your creator dashboard gives you uh like for your your most recent video, it tells you in the time that has been out, whether it's like three days and and you know, five hours, in those first three days and five hours, how it has compared to like the previous nine videos and it ranks them. And so when you hit a one out of ten, they literally have like animations of of confetti going like it's like a celebration. And at and a ten out of ten, and especially for someone like me who releases like a video a month, that is me discovering oh, this is the worst performing thing I have released in almost a year. And this is our season premiere. This is uh this is supposed to kick off our new era, and I am just spiraling for this hour. I'm like, was it was it the time away? Uh, you know, where did the audience just finally abandon us? Did they decide they they just don't care about this anymore? Um, was it a thing where because we released a couple like smaller videos that that didn't, you know, get uh as many views as usual, did like the algorithm decide that like we don't like this channel anymore and and and uh we're just not gonna show it to people? I'm and I I'm I'm starting to panic because like I have the next five episodes planned out, but I'm realizing like, am I gonna have to just fully cave and do the kind of like pandering like topics that I've like always avoid, just desperately trying to get some views? And um, and then instead I tried uh swapping out the thumbnail and the title. Oh and immediately it started pulling out of its nosedive. And then and then over the next like two days, it moves from 10 out of 10 to 2 out of 10. Wow. And uh and it was simply that. It was it was simply just a thing of uh even though uh I I have like a really wonderful talented thumbnail designer who I love working with, we had just I think kind of it was it was kind of a weirdly complicated subject, and we just weren't uh articulating it clearly in the thumbnail and the title at the time, what the video was actually about. And uh, and so I just changed it. And suddenly it it just did well. And uh and now new season's uh going quite well. Uh I'm I'm I'm feeling really good about it, but it is like like what you're saying, because the videos only come out like once a month, you know, uh there is more pressure on each one. Where, you know, if one doesn't do well, then it's like you gotta wait a month to find out like are like uh are we in trouble? Or uh are actually was that just like you know, a fluke?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, the the so the crazy thing is um I we talk a lot about changing thumbnails and stuff. If you have the vidIQ tool, you actually can go to that video. The the video is called uh the music video is dead, long live the music video, and with our tool, you actually can see what your original thumbnail was, which I I see what you mean. Like the the new thumbnail looks like you're in an actual music video, like you're the music video guy, right? And the previous one has you know a couple images there with a thing in the middle. I can totally see what that was. And it looks like your original title was The Death of the Music Video to Cinema Pipeline, and then you changed it to this newer one where it's the music video is dead along with the music. What made you change the title to that? Well, actually, there was another title in between that. Our coolest directors used to come from music videos, what happened? Which seems like a pretty good title.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah, well, I was using like the ABC like like like testing, and so I was putting on like three different thumbnails and uh and and and different titles, and then when I saw this thumbnail was doing uh better, I then like made this all three thumbnails, but then tried to like different titles there. And I was I was like uh, you know, I was talking uh like like to friends and other creators to get like feedback on it, and um, and so it's truly a thing where I even forget like what the current title is because it's like you know, changed around a bunch of times. And it yeah, and it it is that kind of thing where I do actually I think the original title and the original thumbnail were actually more accurate in terms of like the actual thesis of of the video, like what it's actually about. But I I kind of realized that look, here's the thing. Um this uh ultimately what's gonna get people to click is just is basically just like music videos and a thumbnail that looks like a music video. So this is from a section of the video uh that I shot to the the thing in this video when I said I, you know, I'm I make all my videos more complicated than they need to be. Uh in this one, across there's like seven chapters in it, and I I shot each one in the style of a different iconic music video. Uh, you know, so it's like a lot of different locations, a lot of like a total having to like you know, experiment with like lighting, costume changes. And so I have one section that looks like a 90s Hype Williams video, and um, and that just kind of like immediately like you put the fisheye lens on there, it screams like music video. And um, and yeah, uh some people have suggested like maybe try that on as a the thumbnail, and uh, and it's still, I'm like, I understand why it's working. I still think there's a because I also I made this thumbnail myself. Uh, this is not the one that uh our designer made. And so I it's like I know there's like a a more like aesthetically pleasing, exciting like design that could could still incorporate this, but I was just but and so I I still think there's a better thumbnail that we could have. This is always the thing where it's part of what drives me nuts about YouTube, where uh it's like I um because here's the thing. I don't I think I should I should make very clear that if it's not clear already, I don't watch a lot of YouTube. Um I think there's there's a lot of like very good stuff on YouTube. Uh I have a lot of friends who are extremely talented uh you know video creators on YouTube. Um I just don't watch much YouTube. I almost exclusively watch YouTube uh on an iPad in my kitchen while I'm cooking. And then when I'm done cooking, I pause whatever it was, close the iPad, and resume it next time you know I'm in the kitchen. And so I don't watch a lot of YouTube. I watch like like as as good as YouTube can be, I'm I I don't think YouTube has reached the heights of the best movies. And so I'm always gonna choose to watch movies instead. And so it's this thing where when I approach my videos, I always like I wish I didn't have to give them titles and thumbnails that looked like YouTube videos. I wish I could give them titles and thumbnails that like looked like a movie poster that were a little bit more that that like, you know, I don't want to have a face making a big expression on there. And uh even though that's I know again how the platform works and like like what the game is, I always wish I could give it like a like a I I guess a I I wish I could be a little bit more subtle. Uh and YouTube does not uh encourage subtlety. And uh yeah, and so sometimes what I'll do with what what I I had on the last season of my show is we have a we have a title sequence uh in the videos, because again, I like thinking of it like it's a TV show. And uh last season our title sequence would end and then it would have the title of the episode, and the and the title in the video would often be different than the title like on the video that you would click on. Because I'm like, look, I have to, I'm gonna put the title, you know, on YouTube that's gonna be like the most clickable one. Right. But then the actual video will show what I wish the title could be. Uh something, yeah, that I I think I want something a little bit more elegant. Uh when when, you know, uh YouTube kind of encourages like sensationalism and maximalism because it's like you gotta grab their attention super fast. So yeah, it it's always just like, you know, this sort of like compromise of how can I make a video that like will still get people to click on it, but that I'm not gonna hate myself for like, you know, making a thing with this title.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I'm actually a

Shorts With Almost No Bandwidth

SPEAKER_01 35:08

little surprised based on everything you're saying that you've dabbled in YouTube shorts, considering you go so long in your videos. You would think shorts would be the one thing you wouldn't touch. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Uh well, the thing about shorts is it's truly a thing that I just don't put much effort into. Uh, it's something where I remember when shorts were becoming more of a thing and then talking to, you know, to other creators uh about how they do shorts. And I spent like a couple years just really trying to think like what could I do with shorts? And I fundamentally came down uh on the side of I just simply don't have the time to make original shorts. I I just like like to make like new unique shorts alongside the videos that that I already work on, like uh with an unhealthy schedule. Um yeah, I I just could not, you know, I don't I don't have the bandwidth or time or like mental space to make unique shorts. And so the only thing that made sense for me was to have shorts that are just like cut-down clips of the regular videos. And what happened was in 2024, uh a guy named Ben, who lives uh in Canada, just emailed me and is like, hey, I think you could be doing shorts. Uh, here's a couple sample ones I made from your videos, and I was like, Yeah, those were good. Let's let's like let's like set a deal where it's like, yeah, I'll pay you this for for each short. We'll here's the schedule that we'll have. And uh, and he just does the shorts and I'll like give notes on them and stuff like that. But I put so like so little effort into those because I just don't have the time to put effort into them. And it's the kind of thing where it's like, yeah, the shorts, like they don't, they don't get many views. Uh, I'm yeah, I bet there are ways I could be doing it better, but uh every once in a while one will pop off and uh and and do well and be like, well, that great, that that justifies it for six months. And um, so yeah, uh again, I shorts are one of the a thing that I just I also a lot of the time, like right now, uh, I have a whole like folder of like completed shorts that I just haven't published yet because I don't release them on any like consistent schedule. I was like, I'll often forget for a while, just get busy and be like, oh man, it's been like three weeks since I posted a short. I should, I should, I should post one of those. And um, yeah, I I I want to be very clear. Uh a thing that I'm sure is um is becoming obvious the more that I talk is that uh I'm not good at YouTube. Uh that uh again, I've been on here for 15 years and I should uh be more successful at it, but uh ultimately I'm just like, I don't know, you know, I uh I think things are fine. Uh I enjoy what I make and I care about what I make, and it allows me to like survive in New York City. But also it's like, you know, I would love it if I wasn't doing YouTube full time three years from now.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

What would you want to be doing then? Oh, directing movies. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Actually, yeah, doing the thing. Yeah. It it's the thing of like, look, I've got a I've got a lovely like job. I'm not complaining. I I do enjoy what I do, I'm having a lot of fun. Uh, but it's just the thing where, you know, when I was in high school, this job didn't exist. This was never the dream job. I fell into this career on the way to trying to get to the actual like dream. And uh, and so and now I've been doing this like professionally as like my full-time job for nine years. And so so it's just like in the recent years, I've been like, obviously, the I you can't push a button and be like, all right, I would like to uh uh g give me a film to direct. That's my job now. But I I I I've been actively kind of like charting the the transition and and how to do that because yeah, it's like again, I'm I'm having a good time, but uh I don't want to do this forever. And it's really, I'm like, I would love to get off the treadmill.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I think one of the things that you can provide listeners um is storytelling, uh, and then also copyright. Just we'll get to the copyright thing later, but because I that's a huge thing, obviously. Um you are making 45 minute to hour-long videos, which means if you don't have the chops for storytelling, no one's gonna watch it. People are gonna see an hour-long video, they might not even click because they're like, well, do I have an hour? Maybe I don't, you know. What

Story Structure For Long Videos

SPEAKER_01 39:35

have you used? What type of techniques are you using? Give us a little tips and tricks on how you're keeping people engaged for so long.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. I feel like I have uh like there's a lot I could I I could say to that. So ultimately, you know, these videos are essays and they are structured like essays. It's an essays you wrote in high school or college where it's like, yeah, you've got to have an introduction, you gotta state your thesis, you gotta have a conclusion, all of that stuff. But also, this and these are pretty long. Uh they are often like kind of like divide them into chapters, and like we'll go on some tangents and stuff like that. But ultimately, it's like, look, the, you know, we have a title sequence, and that comes after our cold open. And the cold open, I think, is always really important. Uh cold open, you know, like like on like TV shows, it's that's like the first like five minutes before like the theme song plays. And the thing with that is uh that is usually because, you know, we're covering a lot of like really big broad topics. Uh, you know, like we did one that's basically about like the whole history of music videos and why don't like major movie directors come from the world of music videos anymore the way they used to. Uh, or you know, we just had one about why aren't there more dinosaur movies? Uh, our one that's on Nebula now, that's coming out on YouTube soon, is about like uh big budget uh blockbusters made by streaming companies like Netflix and why are they always bad? Uh and so the cold open is really where we have to throw out these big questions, like here is this thing. And again, because these are all topics that I care a lot about. I'm like, here's a thing that I care about that's kind of like that I think about a lot, that's kind of driving me nuts, that I'm fascinated by, and I, and here's all these questions that I want to answer. And the goal there is like get the audience being like, oh yeah, yeah, I I want to know about that as well. And you're basically you're you're beginning a story that you're about to tell, because often what I'll do is then after the the title sequence, then we'll go into like the history of this thing, and we'll go back to like, okay, uh, like dinosaur movies, we're going back to like 1914, and we're gonna talk about the entire history of this, and uh, and you know, but like like that's it's necessary context. And so there's a lot of storytelling in terms of like, let's look at like like again, uh these are essays, but I also kind of approach them structurally as if they're movies, and like you want to build up to a big, exciting climax each time that really pays off the audience's investment through the whole thing. Because like with a lot of the videos, really for years, uh I I you know I I approached them in a strange way where the video the we've like uh it's not as intense this season, but really for several years, uh the videos were were also, they were video essays, but also like a kind of a like a serialized narrative TV show with like characters and stuff like that. We made a uh a 90-minute feature film that was like the that was the conclusion to a season that was our season finale. Uh we it's a channel that has lore and mythology that I I realize can be, you know, potentially off-putting and alienating to some people. But again, this was just me being like, well, if I can't, if I don't have time to also be making movies and short films, I'm just gonna combine those with these videos. But so it was really very much like we're making a TV show. It's like we have uh we have like a fictional story we're telling. We have the story of this topic. Uh I I read a lot of film history books, and so it's like there are so many like really, really fascinating stories just in like the history of making movies where you have, you know, a lot of big personalities coming together, uh, working with a lot of money, uh trying to uh balance like corporate interests with like artistic ambitions and all that stuff. It's like there are there's already so many good stories there that we're talking about. And um, and yeah, it it's like my the general way I approach all these videos is. These need for me need to be things that if I wasn't making videos, that when I would just be hanging out with my friends, I would be like, guys, I've been I've been researching this thing, and let me tell you this why all like that my whole take on this thing that I learned about. Like this, like I want these to have the vibe of a friend who stayed up like all night researching some something they they became obsessed with, and now is arriving to be like, I gotta tell someone about all the stuff that I learned. And I have this galaxy brain take on like this this development in this movie genre that happened over the last 30 years. Like that's that's the general kind of thing. And um, and I hope I'm pulling it off. But uh, but again, yeah, like so much of this comes from the fact from you know me being like, oh, I'd like to be making movies. And so if I can't do that at the moment, I'm going to approach each one of these videos like it's a movie.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, and that's

Fair Use And Beating Claims

SPEAKER_01 44:57

really important for when you want people to kind of hang with you. I guess finally, I want to know, how are you getting around copyright? Or even if you are like what obviously you use content from other people, so I'm just curious, like, how does that work for you?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Uh I get this question a lot. Like a lot of people will just randomly email me and be like, hey, I want to make videos. Um, how do you get around copyright claims? And it is surprisingly easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Uh really do tell, do tell.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

I run into almost no trouble ever with copyright claims. And my videos are like wall-to-wall licensed movie footage. And by license, I mean, I mean like I have not licensed them, but like they, yeah. So I just have simple rules that I follow. Um with with few exceptions, I keep all of the the clips in the movies that I use to six seconds or less. As in, like, I will uh I will like chop as in, you know, you'll have like a minute that will be all clips from one movie, but they will all be separate, like, you know, four to six second clips. Because the the main thing when you get copyright claims is they're always trying to argue that, like, oh, you're simply reproducing uh or just like stealing like this existing work and just putting it up there to replace the experience of someone like renting this movie and watching it. And by keeping the clips short, I'm just like, you know, I can clearly say, no, this is fully transformative. Uh, I'm not using any long sections of the film at all. And um, and so it's just like if you truly like whenever I see people like like run into trouble with this, it's because they're using like a 20-second clip. And it's like, no, you you just you just can't do that. Yeah, it's more work, but you keep the the clips short. And what will always happen is I will occasionally get a copyright claim. And this is this, look, if if anything I say can be of value to listeners and viewers, it is this. When you get a copyright claim, and if you know that you have been transformative and and you've made a work of commentary and criticism, uh, and that the footage you've used um is simply to support the arguments that you are making. That is the definition of fair use. When they file a claim, they are trying to scare you. Like this is simply like they're hoping that you will see that, oh, Warner Brothers Pictures has filed a claim. They're a giant international conglomerate. I don't, I can't go up against them, and that you will then just like let them, you know, uh monetize the video for themselves. You simply you dispute the claim, uh, you just you fill out the form, you explain why this is transformative, why this is the definition of fair use. You can look up all these legal cases uh if you want to get really fancy and cite those. Uh, but it's like, you know, like if if it is a work of commentary and criticism, then it is fair use to use this footage. And what will occasionally happen is then they will reject your dispute. When that happens, you will have to file an appeal. The appeal, and they say, like, if they reject the appeal, then you will go to court. They do not want to go to court, they will never go to court. All you do is stand your ground. You fill out another form explaining the ways it's transformative, the way it does not replace the original work, uh, all of that stuff. And then sometimes they will wait the full month uh that that they have to respond, and it'll just like expire. But uh, but again, I've been doing this for nine years, and I have never lost when this has happened because I know I'm like I know I'm in the right, I I know what fair use laws are, uh, and I know that I'm making works of commentary and criticism, and I'm only using the footage that is necessary to to simply support the points I'm making. And so I will say, for music creators, it is really tough. Uh, I I have friends who do videos like analyzing music, and that that's way tougher because you kind of have to use longer clips of music than you do with with uh visual media, and uh and they run into so much trouble there because it's just like fighting the record labels is kind of a nightmare. So not everything I'm saying uh about like film and TV applies to music, but for me, and if you're talking about movies, uh it stick to these rules and you will be fine.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Amazing, amazing. Patrick, you've spilled all the tea, you've given us all the info. I I can't thank you enough. If

Where To Find More

SPEAKER_01 49:52

you're interested in seeing more Patrick's stuff, you're listening to the audio podcast. Again, links in the show notes if you're listening to the us on watching us on YouTube. Obviously, links are in the description. And if you like more talk like this, I have another video for you right here. You can watch that. We'll see y'all in the next one.