The Music Industry Podcast
The Music Industry Podcast
How Artists Find Their Purpose | Ultra Records
In this episode, we dive deep into the music industry with Mike Burns from Ultra Music, discussing the critical importance of storytelling, understanding your "why," and navigating today’s crowded market for artist growth. Listeners will learn how to authentically build their brand and the strategies behind successful marketing in music.
• Insights on the role of radio and its impact on emerging artists
• Importance of storytelling and authentic engagement in music
• Strategies for leveraging social media effectively
• Emphasis on consistency and the significance of small wins
• Navigating the music landscape with a focus on the artist’s unique journey
Welcome back to the Music Industry Podcast. This is a really interesting one today because it covers a lot of different areas for artists looking to grow. We're joined by someone from Ultra Records, a huge record label acquired by Sony, and yeah, we cover a lot of things, but I think one of the main things that is good from this episode is the why the why an artist wants to succeed and how to use that to really push you into growth.
Speaker 2:And it's a good time to mention that to really push you into growth. And it's a good time to mention that if you're an artist that is looking for marketing, that extra push, getting extra streams, then we are a marketing agency. Go to Burstimocom, check out what we do and see if there's anything on there that you think would be benefit to you, and if you think that we're a right fit, then do get in touch. Today we have mike burns, senior marketing manager from ultra music. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:We've actually just worked out that we, we worked together yeah, years ago.
Speaker 1:How long ago do you think it was like?
Speaker 3:five, I'm gonna. I'm gonna say even further than that. Yeah, I was gonna.
Speaker 1:All six years maybe we've been going for like seven, eight years now. So yeah, the background of that is one of our first ever clients that we worked with. We ended up helping them get signed to Ultra because I knew one of the A&Rs. They came to one of the gigs, they got signed to Ultra, and then we did a campaign with you guys. That's right, it was just such a small world because I recognized your email address but I didn't put two and two together.
Speaker 2:But now you sat here, you're joining us, so ultra music is obviously part of sony and when we worked with them, you it's, quite to my eyes, quite a unique label in a sense, where you've got, uh, your own youtube channels and you've got, um, a lot of playlists and things like that, where you've already got a platform for the artist. So, uh, what do you want to take us through? A little bit about ultra and what, yeah, they do and you do so.
Speaker 3:Ultra was always kind of a us based dance label and um and yeah, so we've signed traditionally signed talent kind of from the us and the artists that are kind of on Ultra's roster back a good while ago, you know names like Calvin Harris, icona Pop, and they're actually still signed to us. So we're still working on Icona Pop. In fact we did a little event around the corner recently but yeah, ultra's been based out of the US but always had like an international footprint. So we've always had reps in every other market the main markets we're talking like GSA, the MENA markets, you know France, benelux, even Asia, and so that's kind of what we've prided ourself on in the past is having an international footprint in everywhere and and growing artists consistently in those markets. I think what Anton alluded to in the previous podcast is putting the groundworks in to then build from there and then, when the time's right is pressing the green button, when they have that hit, we can send it then to another level. And since then I'll move on in the timeline.
Speaker 3:Sony acquired Ultra 100%, so it was originally 50-50 owned this is my understanding and then Sony bought out the other half and wants to build this as a brand under its umbrella. You've got your likes of Ministry and RCA and everyone, but I think the point with Ultra and acquiring Ultra was actually about having, like, a US Ministry of Sound. That was my interpretation. That's kind of what I've heard through the grapevine, I suppose. And so with that comes still, we've got to have this global footprint, we've got to be good in every market. Um, and then what we often find now is when songs start to bubble up and do really well. Uh, for example, let's talk about pedro. Uh, by jack to me, and that song you'll, you'll, you'll know, is that pedro, pedro, pedro, yeah the one with the raccoon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the raccoon, yeah yeah, so that was, that was one of ours and, but the rights unfortunately for me anyway went off to another label in the UK, because I'd have loved to have been a part of that campaign. Of course it was great, but in the US it was still it's still ultra, and a lot of the marketing ideas and everything obviously came from our team.
Speaker 1:So you're UK-based. So are you predominantly working on the marketing in the UK and then communicating with the other countries to say, like you know what we're seeing potential here, here and here, like, how does your job work being based in the UK when there's quite a big focus in other areas?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely it's that. It's. What opportunities can we take advantage of here in the uk, the ones that we see that are fitting. A lot of the sound crosses over from the us. Um, you know they look at us as kind of front runners, like the uk market it really is um, leading the way in in. You know, compared to like germany, I suppose they take after our trends. Maybe a month later the rg GSA rep will even say that there's no slight on Germany, but we're very much at the start of most trends and so that's why, of course, it's an important market. And, yeah, my job is to make sure we get in with the right people early. So I'm doing the radio, pitching for Ultra with BBC Radio 1, kiss, all those guys, and then DSPs talking to the dance reps like Amazon, spotify, apple, on a consistent basis, just to make sure that that proposition is communicated consistently from when we sign them all the way through to, like you said, that moment when it's meant to, when it's meant to happen.
Speaker 1:I feel like we haven't spoken about radio very often in this podcast. I mean we had Abby McCarthy on so BBC Introducing BBC Radio 1 presenter, and she obviously had a whole episode about radio. But in terms of like from the labels perspective, we actually haven't spoken about radio pitching. So obviously it's a huge part of your job. A lot of people I think are in the mindset of like dsps all the way um, maybe get some press for like credibility side, but that's that you're still very hot on radio.
Speaker 3:Yeah, radio is really interesting how it's kind of changed over the last couple of years. I think um, so covid was was massive of course, and it changed everyone's listening habits in many ways. And and so you know I remember the COVID days, my dad dancing around the kitchen to Capital Dance. You know he got him on at 3pm and I love that. You know I was there with him in the kitchen dancing away, and so you know that's what radio does. I think it has that effect and we can't forget that, because now we're starting to see that labels don't give it so much value because they're not seeing the impressions, they're not seeing it translate into actual reaction sometimes. Sometimes you do, you see an obvious, clear reaction, sometimes you don't. And also the radio shows know that as well. They have their ways of testing.
Speaker 2:You know if radios, if if the tracks are doing well or not doing so well, do you have to build up to radio in a sense where you take on an artist and like, do you like go all out and you're like going to the biggest stations from the off, or do you have to say actually that artist's not quite there yet? Let's build up and we'll get like a smaller station and then we'll get the bigger station and grow from there yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:It's starting with the, the smaller stations. You know, getting those spot plays to what the kiss specialist shows and I think a lot of people take these for granted as well. Like it's a great look to have, you know, spot plays at kiss fm. It's a great look with Select Radio, who are a London-based radio station, voices Radio, which I just literally walked past, the community radio station fantastic little setup there. They offer opportunities for artists to put that groundwork in and then build to the next thing. If they can prove themselves a little bit there, they move on and they transition into, let's say, you know your hottest records, you have an interview, or you know, um, there's much bigger opportunities that can come down the line. Um, there's certainly a building game. That happens, you know. You start, of course, you just introduce them and we usually do like a presentation, I suppose, for for the particular producer or the radio station to introduce them to the artists and then you just constantly keep them up to date, I suppose, on their journey, their story.
Speaker 1:So you're kind of trying to show them that they're worth the time on the show by saying, okay, this person's interested. This is working on social, just proving to them that it's someone worthwhile.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and it's also trying to make their story speaking from the artist and marketing for the's also trying to make their story of speaking from the artist and marketing for the artist, trying to make their story relevant to the uk market. Because, like I said, we work with a lot of international, uh talent that we're trying to break here by international is that what? What countries is that? Uh, well, we signed them out the us, but you know, there we signed talent all over the world as well. So we we've got Klingon in France, we've got Josie, who's also based out of France, but he's from Israel. Who else have we got? I kind of pop from Sweden? So, some really cool names and, of course, their markets champion them. They love them because they're relatively established artists and their home markets they definitely champion them. But to get all the other markets on board, I feel like you need to appeal to their.
Speaker 3:There's a bit of a stubbornness in the UK, I feel, about who we pick and who we use and who we support. And yeah, I think there is a little bit of a stubbornness in the UK that we need to overcome. We need to give more artists a bit of a chance to have their music heard here because there's such great music coming internationally and they do look at us, like I said earlier, as kind of trendsetters. So when they come in, when they see the likes of TTTS or Danny Howard supporting their music, they're absolutely overwhelmed. You know, they're buzzing because we're seen as the front-running trend. Uh, you know, market with the spot players.
Speaker 1:You're getting on radio and things like that. Do you ever find that it's because obviously it's down to a producer, a presenter as to what they're going to play. Do you find that one person can champion it and they can just say you know what, I'm going to put this on rotation. Or is it more? They do need proof from other tastemakers, the industry, to get behind it? Are there any examples of artists where radio has been like yeah, love that, let's just play it, even though they haven't got that much credibility yet?
Speaker 3:From they haven't got that much credibility yet. From my experience, no, I haven't had someone go. Absolutely I can champion that.
Speaker 1:Let's get on the playlist, it's kind of part of the puzzle piece. It's not like the whole puzzle, is it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but what you touched on there is different tastemakers championing the record at the same time. That definitely helps. And let's talk about BBC Radio 1. If Danny Howard plays it, then Charlie Hedges' dance anthems. You kind of look to get a few spot plays from different shows to then have a case to go forward with for that wider playlist coverage, radio 1 dance playlist. I think that would probably be the next step from the spot plays and then gauge how it reacts and that sort of stuff from there. Then I mean your numbers do have to be quite silly to be to be on that, on that radio one playlist conversation, um, and that's that's a challenge we've definitely come up against.
Speaker 3:I think in the past we've had records getting on the playlist purely because the producer or presenter loves that artist or it's just they're bang on board with what they're doing right now. But that has changed. I've found in my experience with plugging for three, four years now that's definitely changed. It's more of a numbers game. It's got to be reacting in various places. The shazams have got to be good, the streams have got to be more. It's more of a numbers game, you know it's got to be reacting in various places. It's. You know, the shazams have got to be good, the streams have got to be great, and that makes it really tough, I think, for kind of your audience.
Speaker 3:We're talking about emerging artists who are looking for tips and tricks to kind of come through. That does make it very hard, but I think what I want to kind of my message I want to kind of get across here today, is kind of for artists to focus in on themselves a bit more and their story and focus on building that story rather than looking elsewhere. I think I think I listened to you, alex, before mention this on one of the other podcasts about social media and I thought you're bang on the money, because that's when I feel that needs to happen a movement of artists to look back in and kind of go what am I good at, what makes me unique, and just champion that, just go with it, because the last thing you want to do is mimic someone else, because it's already been done first of all and your numbers are going to be impacted because of the algorithm and if you're putting out content which copies someone else. We found that with a lot of our artists definitely um.
Speaker 1:Does the a and r work predominantly on, like the narrative of the artists, or is that something you're involved with as well?
Speaker 3:yeah, with ultra definitely there's been a transition to that. It used to be when we were fully independent, or say fully independent, it was 50 percent um sony, but we were operating purely as an independent label then and that was definitely picking up more singles here and there. If one was reacting somewhere or something was trending, we'd pick it up immediately, put it out. That's absolutely changed. We look at artist propositions now. We're looking at the story, of course. What is the story?
Speaker 3:And I think, looking a lot at them as as well as their personalities and things like that, and kind of really going on a deeper level, the music absolutely is first and foremost the most important thing. The music has to be great, I think. Second of all is is it comes down to kind of social media, doesn't it? And I just kind of say that because I've, you know it's the word that everyone life was oh, I got social media, tiktok, um. But for me it's not actually about focusing on social media, it's about focusing on your story and you can tell that story in all different, in different arenas. You know, you don't have to be on social media doing it. It can be, I don't know, for you know, you could do pop-ups. You could do a pop-up street rave. You could do something like that and you allow other people to tell your story. You know they can all film it, you just partake in, maybe resharing.
Speaker 2:It was things like that just push me out, and then the followers are going to come, and then the streams are going to come, but it's not. They need something to connect with and, like you were saying, it's like you've got to look at, like, what makes you unique and like, just like, think within, and then that will come out, whether it's in the press, whether it's on the radio, uh, or social media, and the content kind of comes to you, doesn't it? After a while, once you figure that out, instead of looking at the trends and end up doing a TikTok dance, you end up.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, you know the amount of artists that we get that do shove it back at us and go. I'm not doing that. Yeah, absolutely not. And you can sometimes think, oh you know, of course my ideas might not be good enough or something. In this one case, any marketing manager who tells you they haven't sent over a TikTok idea that they're not proud of is lying, because we've all sent over some that are just like oh you know. Or if you're using AI even I mean, that's a trend now in marketing you know everyone's just kind of using AI to generate ideas. I suppose the problem with that is we're all doing it and you end up coming up with similar sort of stuff. So I like to try and sit down and think of ideas myself before going to any AI sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Does TikTok a big one for you? I mean huge platform, but you do hear of labels kind of stepping back from socials a little bit just because it's so oversaturated. Is Ultra very much focused still on TikTok?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've had a few TikTok hits. Just this year we had Jackson V with Pedro. We've got this Ukrainian artist who's quite exciting, called Frozy, and I'll tell you what he does. He kind of just puts out, you know, your door logic, or able to, what you can see on the screen. It's just you know it goes through the song. When you press his play it goes through the song. You can see all the MIDI notes.
Speaker 3:Well, social media is quite simple. He puts up clips of that of him and his ideas that he's been creating in the studio and they blow up on TikTok. They blow up and he has this community of people that kind of take his sound and they just do their own thing with it. And so there's this one record um, it's frozy, uh, compa, it's called compa passion, and this song just blew up and you might know it actually, if I I'm not gonna sing it, but um, it's, it's really. You know, when you hear it you'll be like yeah, that's that. And um, this, this, this one blew up by a playstation cover trend on social. So what it would do is the screen would. You'd take a picture of yourself and the screen would slowly come down and it would turn you into a playlist cover, like a PlayStation 1 cover. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So who created the? Is it CapCut? Is it something like that?
Speaker 3:I'm not sure where that filter came from.
Speaker 3:I mean that was probably used by someone else before. I mean, it's probably not original to this campaign, but that is what that was a catalyst for it to go boom like this and um. And then then a famous dancer in brazil took hold of it when he did this incredible hip thrust dance which, uh, which is very amusing, but uh, he did that and then that absolutely blew up. Everyone was doing dances then to it, and so since then we've kind of changed our strategy with him a bit is that he has the freedom to put out loads of clips on his social media, all like songs that aren't even out right, and we kind of would go through and sometimes we go okay, if that reacts, let's maybe pursue that a bit, let's develop that song a bit. You know, it's kind of a reverse engineering sort of thing. Yeah, rather than going, let's wait for the music, let's wait until he's got a full package.
Speaker 1:So, like, let the market decide what's going to be the next hit. Yeah, exactly that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, letting social media essentially decide what is going to be the next hit. Yeah, I thought that was very interesting when the ANRs kind of mentioned that. I don't know if I'm even allowed to mention that, but you know what?
Speaker 2:We've done it. Now, guys. I do find social media is getting simpler now in a sense where the content is just like.
Speaker 1:Everyone's going to hate you for that, colin, I know, but they're going to be like it. Everyone's going to hate you for that, colin, I know, but they're going to be like. It's not simple because I'm struggling, I know.
Speaker 2:I meant by the content.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. It's especially on YouTube as well.
Speaker 2:If you watched our videos three or four years ago, it would be like you need to be like, so try harder Doing this for the first three seconds, et cetera. I feel like the audience is changing a bit where they're willing to give things a chance. Maddy and I were talking on the way here about YouTube now has changed in a sense, where people are watching one-hour videos Matt Armstrong rebuilding cars is like an hour long and people are sticking it on.
Speaker 3:I think I saw a trend, actually a report, that said that a lot of certainly Gen Z is transitioning to YouTube and we're all watching. You know, basically, watch as he be essentially for an hour. I mean I do, to be honest. I sit there and I watch documentaries of what I'm interested in, or I watch some of your videos, or watch clips from I don't know some guy in Alaska who's building his hut something like that.
Speaker 3:It's a very niche stuff, right, but I love it and so it's all there and that's what I think everyone's doing. And YouTube's an incredibly important platform for artists, because another thing that someone told me was that it lives. The life cycle of content lives differently on YouTube compared to other platforms. So you know TikTok, I think it's like first 24 hours. You might know that if this is, you know, reacting, is doing well, and then instagram, something like 48 hours. You know you'll know if this is doing well or not, whereas I think someone said, yeah, youtube is more like a week. It's got a week life cycle where you know that could that could build over that week, and so I think that that demonstrates the importance importance of occupying every platform still.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially in electronic dance space. There's a huge amount of listeners on there. So I mean, you guys have your own YouTube channel, so I'm guessing that's a huge bonus being able to just share the artists there. But do you have strategies for them posting their own stuff, or is it mainly audio Like? What's the strategy there for YouTube?
Speaker 3:Yeah, ultra's YouTube channel is obviously a great promotional asset. It's a massive subscriber base. But I think a lot of artists are looking inwards as well. They want to. We've got an artist called Tripolism. We're definitely looking to build their YouTube channel up because they're an emerging artist. They're doing really well just been announced for Coachella as well, which is great. But, yeah, they're definitely looking to build their own YouTube channel up. So for them using our YouTube channel and putting their assets on our YouTube channel wouldn't be so much a priority. I think what makes the YouTube channel important is for those straight-up, brand-new artists.
Speaker 2:You mentioned Froze and how it blew up. What was it like before it blew up? Because I think a lot of artists listening or watching right now it's like what does it feel like when it's not blowing up, but it does so? If you could go back in time and describe it, was it a case of lots of failure, lots of trial and testing, uh, just posting and nothing happening? What? Or did they posted that piece of content a lot and it didn't pop off and once it did, like what, what's the? What's the life like before it?
Speaker 3:pops up. I think it could be very frustrating for artists to uh, you know, constantly putting your music out and nothing happening. Uh, with frozey that wasn't the case. He was always social media first, yeah, so he would put his clips out and then wait, and and he would, he would just put another one out, then another one out, another one out every other day, or you know, I think per month he puts out maybe like 30 clips of different songs.
Speaker 2:This guy's put a prolific producer what were the views like on before one of them popped off? Was it like hundreds or yeah? Oh, yeah, yeah, hundreds hundreds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know kind of what you'd expect from the tiktok algorithm. You know, one of them popped off. Was it like hundreds or thousands? Yeah, oh yeah, hundreds, hundreds. Yeah, you know kind of what you'd expect from the TikTok algorithm. You know, like I don't know, there is a standard sort of view count, isn't there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like 300. Because I noticed that 300 view jail everyone calls it, that's right, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think they stay kind of in that region and that region and then when one pops off, it can change the game. And this is why I think the word that um we should emphasize is consistency, like find your, find your thing and be consistent with it, um, and kind of be true, true, just keep going. You know, because that's what frozi did. He kept putting these, these videos of his door, and you know of um logic, whatever sorry logic up and it just worked.
Speaker 2:Never doubted himself, Never, never, never. Was there anyone putting pressure on it, saying what the hell are you doing?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not going to lie, when I first saw it I was like, really, is that the content, the proposition? But yeah, it worked. And because he has a niche that is engaged with that sort of stuff, I suppose it must be the producer community, you know.
Speaker 1:But the way they blow up, that must be hard as a label, because you're watching someone with great music post something that you can't see working and then it does. How much freedom does the artist have? Because obviously you need them to do well, because you're taking a risk on each artist you sign, but do you kind of just have to trust their the process and trust that they know their audience and their music best? Like what's the balance between, like you controlling it and them being creative? Is there much of a balance?
Speaker 3:That's why the A&R team has to liaise back and forth with them, because there is that battle of artists regularly going you've got to put this out, this is it, this is the one. And the A&R team has to go back, of course, and be like no, we've got to change this, we've got to do this, we've got to do that. We never want to force you know, opinion or say you've got to do this, you've got to post like this. And, like I said earlier, they often throw the ideas back. I think, as a marketing team, the last thing, the worst thing you want to, the first thing to do is come up with no ideas at all and just trust that the artist has got it all in hand. It has to work, you know, hand in hand as a team, as a team effort so, after it does get traction, blow up.
Speaker 2:What happens then? Do you capitalize on it? Is it a case of just doing more of the same, or do you change the strategy a bit?
Speaker 3:I never want to get into the, into the bracket of just doing more of the same, uh, and I think I think you'll never kind of nothing will ever happen in something like what's next if you just stay in that more of the same lane you've got to. I think look at ways of diversifying the, the social media proposition. You know what's another angle off what I'm doing, which is already successful that can take this even further and constantly be trying different things. I think there is a recipe for some artists, I mean live, live clips. Like.
Speaker 3:We've got an artist called bamu orhan, who he blew up through his content, uh, you know, and it's like pov sort of thing, like right in front of him, uh the cameras, and he's playing out to to hundreds of hundreds of fans, thousands of fans. Uh, he's a great looking guy. So all the content was just reacting. And back in like September 2023, we saw this incredible spike from his content, which went from 500,000 Instagram followers to in 2024, it went up to like 2 million, 2 million followers. So 500,000 to 200, sorry, to 2 million in that short space of time, literally from live videos of him, a lot of like dancing around the decks and things like this, but it's funny because that's what people I think obviously engaging with and that's what happened.
Speaker 2:So we're saying sort of something to put on in the background. Simple content Is that long content as well? Are you saying it's got an hour?
Speaker 3:No, this is the complete opposite really. So he was also a blessing for other artists, so Robert Sanchez is one of them. Robert Sanchez, sorry, and he did a remix of Robert Sanchez's Go.
Speaker 3:And the song is just get your shit and go. You might have heard that song. He goes do, do, do, do, right. And so he did his own little remix of that and he played the original out in his sets and that just blew. That was such a reactive song that he played in his sets and it just went. And so these videos have now got like 80 million views of him just playing this record and I think it's a perfect recipe, you know, of him looking so great behind the decks and his personality comes across when he's behind the decks he dances, he's smiling, all these different things and the angles are great with the camera. And then when the song's reactive as well, these videos can just go.
Speaker 1:You find it does convert, like you can see.
Speaker 3:With that. It absolutely does.
Speaker 1:So the clip will blow up on social and then you'll see that direct impact on DSPs.
Speaker 3:With that song. Yes, we did. Actually, that's a good point. I wanted to get into that. With TikTok and TikTok campaigns we don't see as a label, we don't see as much reaction Really.
Speaker 1:Not even since they've linked Spotify to it.
Speaker 3:No, well, no. In recent times for us, no past the past six months, I suppose we've been noticing this trend of, you know, some tiktok campaigns not reacting, and I think it comes back down to what you know. What is the creative as well, what is the idea behind all these campaigns? Because I think if you've not got a really solid idea about what, what is the creator doing? Is there a trend that's worth following?
Speaker 1:So it will do okay on TikTok, but you won't see it actually convert to any sort of streams. No, but how about Instagram? Do you see Instagram more so?
Speaker 3:We haven't had too I can't really talk too much on that because we haven't had too many campaigns that have it usually kind of transfers over to Instagram. That's kind of a slow burn. Yeah, in my experience it kind of starts with a TikTok boom and transfers over to Instagram. Yeah, it's different.
Speaker 3:I think we've got an artist at the moment called kideko. You know kideko, he did. He did that crank, crank it, uh track, uh, which was, which was one of his big hits, um, a good a few years ago. But he's, he's got this, this song at the moment, uh, with a track which is brilliant, called loving you, and the lyric is I can't stop loving you.
Speaker 3:I was going to sing it then, but what people have done is we did this like creator challenge with an agency called Zeba and they basically sent it out to their creators and they've come up with a bunch of different interpretations of that sound, and so one of them was this slide carousel post where people put I can't stop on the second slide, loving you, with pictures of their partners and all that sort of stuff doing the campaign and putting it together. I thought I was kind of going way too deep on it, I suppose, as a lot of us do, marcus, as we try and delve in so deep, come up with a really cool story idea, and it's often right there in front of you, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Well, and that was an example of one way I did really really well.
Speaker 3:It's starting to do. Well, I mean I don't want to. Okay, yeah, with that, do you do?
Speaker 1:that sometimes then like a trend starting to show some potential and so you're like let's go full steam ahead and like go more into that one. And then there's others where you've invested some money, time and it's not really showing potential, so you'll pull back and focus on the next one.
Speaker 3:I think that's a hard decision for any marketer. Actually, at the moment, that's what we all face on a regular basis is three trends emerge, don't they from one of those kind of campaigns? And that's the case with this song. Actually, three trends emerged and you've got to. I think, yeah, you have to drill down on which one you want to pursue. I think a lot of money does probably get wasted following or telling creators what to do, when to do. Uh, you know, when you put briefs in front of them, you go you've got to do this, do this dance? No, I don't. In my experience, it doesn't really work. No, I think it's gone now, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's just very oversaturated as well. So you're seeing dance routines being done over and over and over from an artist that maybe wouldn't even suit the creator. Um, I think we're now very much in a time where, uh, it has to look organic even if it's not um. One thing that I'm noticing with tiktok now is it's less, less music focused, it's more based on, uh, it's similar to vine, where it's like comedic or educational or rants or whatever. So now if you want to make some sound and impact with music, you have to be really creative, which this time, what, like four years ago, you didn't really need to.
Speaker 1:You just post and you, you saw some success yeah, which is savage to say because, like obviously our listeners, they they're in that position, wanting to grow, but it's, it is harder than ever. So you have to actually be creative with it. You have to, and that even the example you gave with the carousel doesn't have to actually be creative with it. You have to, and even the example you gave with the carousel doesn't have to actually be complex, but you have to just think of different things that are going to make someone want to get involved.
Speaker 3:Talk about the Frozen campaign again. You know that PlayStation cover idea. Everyone loved it and everyone wanted to take part, just because, I mean, I used to love playing PlayStation personally back then.
Speaker 2:You playstation personally back then. Uh, you see your face like looking like a gta character. It's fantastic, uh, and it just everyone just caught on and did it. Um, I was gonna ask actually because you said that tiktok I'm just gonna throw this out there tick, tiktok and instagram aren't necessarily converting to streams. But also, tiktok is less focusing on, like, the music side, it's more just like Vine. So what we're finding, for example, on our Burstimo account on both TikTok and Instagram, is that a reel can get 2000 views, which for us is low. We expect kind of between 10,000 and 40,000 on a reel, expect kind of between 10 000 and 40 000 on a reel. But on instagram it comes up someone has followed you from this reel. The ones that get 2 000 views sometimes, uh, can be huge artists. All verified 100 000 I'm like. So that didn't go viral, but for some reason it hit a big artist who decided to follow.
Speaker 1:So it hit the right audience, basically, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what I was thinking was is it now a case where TikTok and Instagram are moving to a way where every artist is trying to go viral but that's not working? But if you can hit like an audience of, say, 3,000 people every single video, that's more likely to convert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go more niche basically.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's not converting anymore.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of artists forget that. Unfortunately, being a musician is like being a business. A lot of them don't want to hear it, but that's the reality of it and, at the end of the day, each post, each song is trying to sell a product. So having a TikTok, having an Instagram that reaches people that are going to invest in that product, is a lot better of a return than having a video go viral, unless it's going to cause this snowball effect where it continues to see success. I guess it's like the example you gave of the guy that screen records as Ableton. It got the niche which, long-term, caused this snowball effect, I think.
Speaker 3:for me, storytelling is the key for the future, with artists and doing bits in between, those salesy posts that you're talking about there. You know how often do you switch off when you see an artist trying to sell music and it's very much forced in front of your face and you know you can almost identify. Now it's so like you're gonna see it straight away, can't you? Um, well, I think the way you kind of ease that and probably get more engagement and make that more effective is by doing the bits in between that keep everyone on your journey. You know, doing that bits of storytelling, you know, yeah, whether you're filming yourself live, going to gigs, all these different things and getting your personality across. Therefore, I think you can keep people on the journey with you, whereas if you just pop out of nowhere randomly and go buy my music, listen to my music.
Speaker 1:Everyone usually goes no. I also think that the idea of telling the journey is so important in terms of there is very much an obsession with being the end product, so looking like an artist that is successful, so like paying to be verified and then having a professional photo shoot and everything looks like you're an established artist, when, really, if you'd filmed yourself playing your first gig and only two people turned up and the caption is lol, two people turned up you're a lot more likely to get people involved because they're like good on him. He's actually gone and played to two people and then they see your next gig where you're playing to 10 people and being involved in that journey is a lot more likely to put in attention, especially because it's unique. I think we're very much in a time now where you've got 120,000 tracks uploaded to Spotify a day. What makes you different? And even from a label perspective, you're going to sign loads of artists. You have to find out how each one of them is different and I bet it's hard.
Speaker 3:It really is. You've got to embrace it and just be honest and true. I think I read a book not long ago actually it was Simon Sinek's Start With why I think a lot of artists could probably, you know, do that Think about why you make music. Why do we all do it, I suppose, why do we all market music? It's because it's that end result. Maybe you know where people are camaraderie at cream fields or wherever. It's just my experience, you know. And then I think we've got to think about those experiences at the end, the end result, and kind of work backwards.
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, like why you want to get to that end result. Is it for fame, is it for the money, or is it because you want as many people as possible to hear your music? I think maybe a lot of artists actually don't know what.
Speaker 3:I think that's an instant failure if you're doing it for fame or you're doing it for the material success. It's thinking okay, what's, what is the end result? For me it's my dad dancing around the kitchen to capital dance, right, that fills my heart with joy. But you know, for other artists it's different. There's different purpose, I suppose for everyone. And I think find that purpose, you know, and then you can, and then I think you'll start to see. You'll just naturally start to see. And I think you said on that podcast not long ago, is people gravitate kind of towards you because of doing that just being true to yourself.
Speaker 2:So obviously when we worked on the project many years ago, I was watching Maddy do a lot of the PR and pitching and things like that and it's interesting because back then it was like you got a little bit of credibility from someone and then a more credibility and more credibility. Do you find like that is still the case now, where you've got to get those tiny little small wins, or does it all just happen at once?
Speaker 3:no, I think. I think celebrating the small victories along the way can make a massive difference, even though they might not seem massive to a major label and we're now under kind of that major label umbrella but we still do champion the small victories absolutely, and building those up in the various different areas of promotion is really important, of course.
Speaker 2:Is that still the case for Spotify editors as well? Is that what they want to see, like, what do they want to see?
Speaker 3:Not many people actually know, unless you talk to the Spotify editors themselves, right, what are they truly looking for?
Speaker 3:And I think the labels even struggle with that. Knowing what you know, we put all the stats together and there's pillars of promo. I like to say You've got press, you've got club radio, you've got TV, all these different areas that you want to try and build a story, and I think that's where any marketer kind of starts is those pillars of promo, and then you're trying to build up those little wins in each section, and what I do is bring it all kind of together into kind of a coherent report to present, to present to different radio producers, to the dsps and things like that, um and and it's tough to know kind of, yeah, to know exactly what they are looking for, and I think a lot of information that's within these reports nowadays is more irrelevant than ever, if you know, if that makes sense, and I don't want to kind of throw anyone under the bus here in terms of different areas of promo, but it's certain things that are becoming more relevant than others.
Speaker 1:You know social media reaction, engagement. Press is definitely less credible, but it's still like ticking that box, isn't?
Speaker 3:it. It is ticking that box and a lot of marketers, I think, certainly with major budgets probably go, oh, let's just tick all the boxes. We're certainly a bit more focused in our approach now. I think, certainly with major budgets probably go, oh, let's just tick all the boxes. We're certainly a bit more focused in our approach now, I think, and going where do we need it the most, where do we really want to bolster?
Speaker 1:So where do we feel these areas are? So you said like press club, I mean, that's one that I think mainly the electronic space, but you don't really think about TV. You said so is that like?
Speaker 3:um, well, tv, yeah that's kind of a you know, a subtle one on the side. It's not really like something that you'd integrate straight into the campaign. It's something that you know. I have a sync team ultra that is constantly working and pitching our records to tv and so, and so, yeah, it's, it's part of the mix, but it's not. It's certainly not integral and the thing is it can change the game when you get a TV sync. If that happens, like a jury, your campaign, you're on fire. Because we had it actually with Hannah once and Jaguar Land Rover came on board to use her single in. I think it was called. I think it was called. I think it was called, I don't want to know and they used that song in their advert and it just, it just changed the game for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, you see, shazam's just going up, yeah absolutely yeah nice. Um. So yeah, we said, press uh tv radio bsps, I think you can say, is in that mix yeah, do you find that if they get like I don't know placement on amazon or deezer, it's a lot easier to get spotify because they trust it's probably performing quite well?
Speaker 3:we do. We do kind of do. That actually is is using the information from one platform to use it. Yeah, say it to another and a lot of people are very wary about. Can I do that? Can I mention apple playlisting to spotify? Can I do it? It's like, uh, subtly, subtly putting it across and going, oh look, we've got support everywhere else. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Can we get a little bit of something here? I find that Spotify is the hardest nut to crack in terms of playlisting. It's a bit hit and miss. We get great coverage and sometimes it's not, and I think that is partly down to us as well. It's not keeping that story consistent or there's many various other factors, I suppose, to why that might break down, but I can say I've never seen it consistently someone consistently not get player support If it misses one record. There's many reasons why that could be the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's just harder because there's less of them now per playlist. So they're all working loads of playlists. So they're then having to kind of not copy and paste but use artists across playlists that they know are going to bring in the streams. Because there's just so much music, it's getting more nerve wracking for them to put on something that they're kind of taking a risk, which is hard for the label, because they want them to take the risk, because they've taken the risk themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. That's why it's important, I think, for labels to kind of take it in their own hands a bit and develop their own playlists, their own brands. You know, I look at Defectors and I think they do a fantastic job of building their brand, don't they? And you know there's many facets to it. You know the live game, the playlists, all this sort of thing, and we do as well Ultra. Of course, we have that footprint, and certainly more in the US, I think. But we build our playlist ecosystem. We do trades with those playlists every week, with all the different labels, which is, you know, although it seems small, it's part of the mix and that really does help those records.
Speaker 1:So you guys talk to the labels and you're like, hey, do you mean by trade? So you guys talk to the labels and you're like, hey, do you want to put our artists on your playlist? And you put yours on ours, yeah.
Speaker 3:Everyone at labels is a little bit of a tastemaker themselves, and the guys that are operating the playlist have the ability to add them or not add them, and so we pitch to each other and share music every Friday, usually, I think that's great for the algorithm as well.
Speaker 2:That's what the algorithm is looking for is just loads of playlist ads alongside similar artists, and you're kind of using that to trigger the algorithm, um, rather than the editors, yeah, themselves, which I'm going to clip something you said to um to respond to everybody who says the labels like sony have an advantage of uh on editor I know, when you said you don't know what they want, I was like that's gold.
Speaker 3:They don't, it's just pitching like everybody else on that point a little bit more. Um, when ultra was 50 percent, uh, owned by sony, it was operating completely as an independent and we would have to you to pitch like every other independent to the likes of Spotify, apple, amazon. And it is more difficult, I think, to maintain those kind of relationships at that scale, smaller scale, and get the kind of same attention. I think that maybe majors do get, but usually majors have a whole team right. There's a commercial sort of team designated to almost like one person for each, for each dsp, and in it sometimes um and so, and they have a hell of a lot of music to also get across. And so you, you know, with independence, if you can establish those relationships, you're doing fantastic, because there's so many labels that would love to have that connection and that's really tough to get into that space, I think.
Speaker 1:Did you find it changed when Sony took full ownership? Was it that little bit easier? Because they were like no, not at all.
Speaker 3:not at all. Actually, I think people were a little bit confused at where the label was going. It's all up in the air a little bit and then we have to kind of bring them back. We still have reps and things like that. We still communicate to the same people that we always have been, but they're all fully aware of what's happened and things very well documented in our music business worldwide and things like that. So I'm not sure, actually subtly, if it changes anything, because we haven't really noticed an increase or decrease in our playlisting.
Speaker 1:Everyone thinks like, as soon as say, a label's taken on by a major, it's like every artist is suddenly playlisted overnight.
Speaker 2:No, no, it just feels that way because there's so many signed artists. I think yeah true, of course you're going to, because if an artist is good, it's probably worthy of a playlist spot and therefore you're going to look at whether they're signed.
Speaker 3:Of course they're going to be signed because the labels discovered them and it's not because they're signed to the label. That comes back to my earlier point is having that consistent story and and having a wider proposition and communicating that message over a longer time, rather than having one-off singles. You know, that, I think, really helps in keeping those conversations going with the DSPs and stuff. We only when we update them. Yes, it's about new music, but it's often, always sometimes about like, what live gigs and things they've got coming up. Or if they're doing a show in London, like Tripleism are doing a show in London in February, this is their first relatively big size sort of gig in this market and so we're going to be inviting everyone down and kind of, you know, make a big deal out of it. Yeah, and that's what we do in all the other markets as well. When they go to Germany or they go anywhere else, is is getting everyone down so they can see it in firsthand.
Speaker 2:Nice, good place to leave it. Yeah, thanks very much for watching or listening. If you're listening on podcast platforms, drop it a like if you found it useful and subscribe if you're not already.