The Music Industry Podcast
The Music Industry Podcast
How to Build a Global Fanbase as an Independent Artist
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of the Music Industry Podcast, we sit down with Luke Chiswell, International Marketing Manager at Believe, to discuss what it really takes to break artists internationally. From data, DSP strategy and fan activations to localized marketing, content strategy and the future impact of AI, Luke shares valuable insight from working with artists at Believe and previously at Warner.
A must-watch for artists, managers and music marketers looking to grow beyond their home market.
Submit to Rolling Stone and more:
https://musicindustryportal.com/
Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the music industry podcast. Today we're joined with Luke Chiswell, who's the international marketing manager of Believe. Hello. How's it going?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, very well, thank you.
SPEAKER_02I feel like you can intro yourself probably better than I am. Yeah, we'll give you a lot of it. We wanna give me a little bit of context on like what your job is, who you're working with at the moment, who you've got to believe.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So hi, I'm Luke Chiswell. I am the international marketing manager at Believe. Um I was previously at Warner. Um I generally work on export this in UK repertoire sort of globally, um, with a focus specifically on Europe at the moment. Um and yeah, it's kind of that's across a mix of DSP uh relationships and working at DSP strategy and general just global strategy PR teams, traditional media, and an evolution into digital, really. But yeah, I'm at Believe now currently. Big French company, um, and an even bigger company previously at Warner.
SPEAKER_02So you've got you work with some big artists as well, Warner and Believe, right?
Luke’s Role And Artist Roster
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so currently at Believe we've sort of got Tiny Semper, Craig David, some more emergent artists, Blanco in the rap space, SL, Hayer in the dance space, um, yeah, so that's a few at Believe, and then at Warner, Achiran, Pink Panther from the early days, uh, Iron Maiden, so quite a broad range of artists really. Yeah. Nice.
SPEAKER_02So if you're working with uh looking at taking people kind of outside of UK, I think it's a really interesting topic to start with because a lot of artists obviously are gonna start in their home countries and then look at taking it out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02When you're working with artists that I'm guessing they're probably at a decent level already before you're looking at taking them out, what's like the key data you're looking at to say, okay, we need to start stepping out and looking at France, Germany, looking at different markets, and because we're gonna see some success, they're all potential success.
When International Expansion Makes Sense
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it varies really, to be honest with you. It's it's very difficult to pinpoint an exact time. Um, but I'd say there's a sort of expectation when you sign to a record label that all artists have to be treated equally. And I do agree with that. You treat all artists with the same level of respect and approach, but to be honest with you, uh to sort of go in thinking that you're going to be instantly working internationally and globally from the off is kind of a little bit ambitious because yes, most artists that we sign have a certain level of audience and reach, but it's very varied. Obviously, you've got a Craig David who's a heritage artist, been around for many, many years, has built a fan base over time. Um, and we do send bring in some sort of younger, more developing artists, so you're never going to treat the two exactly the same. That requires very different strategies, very different approaches. Um, so I would say, for example, I I generally do it in different bandings in terms of my approach. Um, I have like a sort of green level, mid-level, red level. They're the ones where maybe if they're at the top level, that means they've already got that exposure. So you're looking at, yeah, where have they had the success already? Where do we need to really double down? And what's the sort of broad level of service that we're going to give across the boards in different territories? I would say the mid-level, you're picking sort of five really key markets where you think there's maybe one or two triggers, but probably needs a little bit more granular work. And then you've got the sort of very entry-level, there's not a super, super strong strategy in place yet of like um what the campaign looks like. It's very early days, and there is going to be a focus on development in the UK first. I do think that is a priority. Um, although I say that and I say it's a priority, there are some artists that you might have a cultural link to another market, or you've got a family member that's lives there and you've got that natural draw you visit very regularly. That might mean that I might step in and go, okay, let's see what we can do here as well to really establish you in both places simultaneously. But that's very case by case, and generally, yeah, it's quite rare. It'd usually be home market first for those sort of artists.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, does seem if the artists will be accepted in that market because of that link? Like they have to have that link. Yeah. Example, just getting a bit of some fans, some traction in the press, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say even more so now, it's we're seeing it's harder and harder to break artists internationally. Um, I think everyone says that. Uh, you're still seeing wins for the sort of Harry Styles, the big artist, they're getting the number ones everywhere. But to actually break them out of the UK is tougher. Markets are localising more and more and more. You're seeing Germany and and Latam regions, they're kind of now just taking over the bad bunnies that are like their local repertoire is performing so well. To really connect with that local market, you have to be sort of what is it that connects you to the place? Like, what is it that would mean that that audience audience is going to connect with you?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think algorithms is also kind of not the word to blame makes it kind of negative, but do you think the algorithms have impacted that? Because we'll have artists a lot, especially in Australia, like Australia is a market where and an Ireland as well, where they'll just kind of get stuck there. And one thing I often say to them is like, if if an algorithm's seeing you doing well in one place, of course it's going to keep pushing you there. Why would it suddenly say, like, okay, let's try Brazil, let's try whatever? Are you seeing that where like the algorithms are fantastic for growth, but it also means you're sort of getting stuck unless you make a real effort to push it to change it up.
Rolling Stone Feature Submission Offer
SPEAKER_00And I think you also see a lot of genres will lean towards certain markets. There's just a natural sort of playlisting thing that will happen where you might see a new music Friday in Netherlands or something like that, because they've got a growing hip-hop scene, we see that quite commonly. There's always like an artist will get signed to us, you look at their key markets, you can kind of take a guess instantly it's gonna be Australia, it's gonna be Netherlands if they're in that genre. So you know that the algorithm's kind of working in their favourite little bit, they're being served to similar artists, doesn't mean there's a natural catch there. There still requires that work. And actually, is it the right market for them? Like, are they actually, once they get that exposure to that market, are they gonna connect with the people there? And I think that requires a little bit of a deeper analysis. Um I think as well touching on the algorithm, what we sort of notice now is when you go into the granular detail of data of data and and Spotify monthly listeners, you might see that the US or the Netherlands might be one of the top, or Australia more importantly, I'd say US, Australia, they might be the top markets. But we're talking a difference of maybe 30,000 streams between the UK and that Australian or Austral uh US market. But then when you look at the actual scale and the size of that market, you know, like what does that actually mean in terms of breaking and introducing it to the market? It could be absolutely minimal. So you might be better suited to trying to target a market like France or actually Francis used, that's a bad example. I'd say even Italy, if there's some sort of link with Italy and the numbers are there, or Switzerland, even like what can we do? There's a more of an engaged number there. Is there a potential? Are we going to maybe look to push it at radio? Is there some content seeding strategies online that we can do to target that specific market and look at the gradual growth? I think it's about, especially in my independent role now, I think there's more of a focus on really looking at where you're allocating your resource and making the most of the budget. Because I think when you're at majors, it tends to be a little bit more of a broader scope. This is our priority campaign, this is our priority artist. Um, and then that means everyone has to sort of work at the same level. And I think, yeah, you can't really do that and indie.
Markets Are Localizing Fast
SPEAKER_01There's a bit of a difference there, I'd say I just wanted to say a big congratulations to the new Tropics who last month were our successful submission for a Rolling Stone feature on the music industry portal. And also to celebrate this, because this is our first collaboration with the Rolling Stone, we are offering that for free now just for this month. So all you've got to do is sign up for a free account, and the submission will be available for Rolling Stone just for this month. So I'll leave the link below. If you want to also be like the New Tropics and be featured in Rolling Stone and considered for their next set of features, then click a link below, sign up and submit because there's a big chance that you might be successful. Do you find that some countries champion artists better than others? So is it basically the same across the globe? Or do you find that you have like, for example, Italy will be more passionate than the UK about artists and they kind of invest in them more, or do you find it's kind of the same across all the countries?
SPEAKER_00I think there are definitely the outliers. I kind of referred to before. Obviously, there is a scale factor involved, like in terms of when we see uh certain countries pop up, but Germany obviously is one we always find that we're we're doing work in. There's it's the fourth biggest market for importing music and for music in general. Um and you see it's got quite a broad uh it's it's really open to all types of genres, really. It's across sort of rock, metal, sort of RB, pop, there's uh they're really receptive to uh import as well. But at the same time, there's a lot of uh yeah, local repertoire development as well happening there. But generally we have a lot more wins in Germany. Um we've heard that before. Yeah, podcast.
SPEAKER_02Electronic space as well. We had Fastboy that we work with, and yeah, their numbers in Germany were huge, and we worked with them trying to get outside of Germany because there's that thing again of yes, you can do great numbers in one place, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna take the market internationally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think from a Spotify perspective, like they're really strong adopters of that platform. It's a lot younger as well, like the people on the platform, and it's easier to make inroads there and sort of generate fans. We find that's generally from like a DSP uh playlisting perspective as well. Like you find that they do get editorial looks more commonly in Germany. Um the Germans are more open to like new artists. It's a combin it's it's such a weird catch-22. You've got more opportunity to grow an artist there, but at the same time, they're also growing their own local repertoire, of course. Yeah, so it's it's a combination of both. They seem like they're receptive, but it's also they're very much localising as well. So I think, and then in terms of when you mention markets like Italy, it's that thing of if you have a convincing enough case that this artist makes sense for your market, I think you've got uh you've got any opportunity anyway. It's just you've got to make that convincing case, and a lot of that is done through um nowadays, it's about identifying sort of uh content strategies where you can really localize if it's copy, is it is it a sort of TV show that's happening in the market where um your music might really resonate with the sort of hot topics at the time. We do a lot of content seeding um through like clipping. I it's clipping, but there's like two types of clipping now. There's a clipping in the sense of repurposing your existing content and flooding very across multiple platforms, and you might be able to say, Okay, I want some Italian profiles and to be posted from those markets, or it's seeding to uh content pages that are very, very low level, but they might be themed around sort of, as I said, TV shows, uh just general news, moods, things like that that are relative to a market.
SPEAKER_02And then alongside that, I'm guessing the plan is like radio running ads in those countries, like looking at different ways to to get into those markets. And then do you guys work alongside like the booking agents and stuff if it's making sense in those markets to start like having them play live in those areas as well?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think as as much as I say sort of we look at the sort of Spotify data and streaming data and social media, when you're looking at the from the outset of a of starting a campaign with an artist, are there live dates in the calendar? That's always a massive tell of where we're going to focus our strategy. Because at the end of the day, being there in person massively makes a difference. There's something that people can really tangibly connect with the artist. It's all well and good seeing them online, but actually having them in that country makes a massive difference. So if we can see live dates, yes, that's a big win. We definitely would work with booking agents and promoters. But a lot of, as I said, there are the Craig Davies and the people like that who, of course, have their agents, but there's a lot that don't. There's some that are still really starting out from the ground up. So part of our job would be, yeah, like maybe is it onboarding a traditional press person, press and radio, probably not radio if it's super earlier, to be honest with you. Now I don't think that moves the needle as much as making your content native and really focusing your spend there. I think early doors that's probably a better move. Um, but yes, maybe in terms of a promo and press team. But what I would also stipulate if they haven't got um a booking agent or someone finding them shows, can that contact get you some sessions? Like, is it the sofa sounds equivalent in Germany that maybe might be a better platform that you can tie a promo trip around, you know? What what reason can I give to make sure that we get this artist to market and like make a trip worthwhile? I think any sort of pop-up sort of sofa sour sofa sound sessions would be great. Um, and then you're capturing content of that marketing uh the artist in in the market. Um that is a huge thing, yeah. So can they can they line up that sort of opportunity if it's just about getting press clippings and things like that? I've I've generally found that's not the best use of spend when you've got sort of limited resources, yeah.
The Data That Actually Matters
SPEAKER_02I agree, especially on the radio side of things, like it's lost its value quite a lot. And yeah, you know how expensive pluggers are now, like it's so expensive, and if you put that into say ads where you're gonna own the data, yeah, so much better spent. I mean, we've spoken about data so much. Yeah. Do you what are the main things that you're looking at? We've mentioned Spotify for artists. What else is the main thing for you guys?
SPEAKER_00So, from a data perspective, having my advice to anyone that's sort of getting into the industry as well and trying to understand it, just having everything says being data driven, data like what does that mean? Is sort of it's a buzzword that everyone uses. Oh, yeah, I'm sort of data driven. It's about knowing when you're going into looking into data, what are you trying to get out of it? So, monthly listeners is great. It kind of goes back to that point of monthly listeners just for the sake of the the volume doesn't matter without the context of okay, but in the scale of in relation to the market that you're looking at, what does that mean? Like going in with that context matters when you're looking at data. So I'd say Spotify for artists definitely is one. The general Instagram and the and those TikTok platforms and pulling that data from the back-end resources and looking at the geographical location, chart metric, combining streaming and social data is really, really important. You're also looking at now there's a new function within Spotify for artists, which is active listeners. Um, that's really important because again, I think that's a really nice addition to that platform because you're not just looking at the overall monthly, but who are actively going in, they're saving your music, they're going back to in their playlist and library. It's not just background listening. That's a real difference, that's a big game changer. So the active listeners is key for data that we're looking at.
SPEAKER_01Um do you want to explain a bit about what they are? Uh, for those who don't know what the active listeners are, because it's quite a new feature, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so active listeners, you're looking at the ones who save it to your library the library. Um, the ones that are going back and playing it multiple times, and that's maybe through their own playlists, or that's through, as we said, like liked songs and things like that. Or normally what you find is general monthly listeners and passive listeners, that's if it they're listening to you in sort of a new music Friday, and you're just sort of getting served the music, or if you're getting served it through ads, and it's just kind of in the background and it's you're not really engaging on a consistent basis, so it's that new uh feature that breaks it down a little bit clearer. So it's yeah, the active fans are probably gonna be quality of the stream.
SPEAKER_02How do you feel about Spotify ads? Um Spotify ads, I think they're you've got partnerships with the DSPs, you're gonna be really careful with this, aren't you?
SPEAKER_00No, I mean to be honest with you, it's it's how you use them at the end of the day. If you're using them with the right intention, I think they are useful. I think what I'm seeing, to be honest, which is surprising, is the biggest artists in the worlds, the Bruno Mars, the Miley Cyrus. If you look at their top monthly listeners and they're they're in Indonesia and Mexico and places like that, and I I don't really think that provides an accurate representation of who that artists, where their fans really are. I'm sure they have got they're the biggest artists in the world, they're there, but that doesn't make sense that they'd be the biggest globally. And you think why I can tell you why that is.
SPEAKER_01We all know why. I can say it, it's all the bots on Spotify, basically.
SPEAKER_02So um a lot of companies also are doing the argument of we're getting you streams in Mexico and Brazil and all that. And if you look at the biggest artists in the world, that's where they're getting streamed, so it's a good thing. And yeah, for us as a marketing agency, it's infuriating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and they've got the budgets, you know, they they can invest it into ads, they can target those sort of cheaper markets where they're going to get that return. So I think personally, not to to sort of uh yeah, run them down too much because obviously it's big, big companies and it makes sense for them in terms of what the overall vision and they've got their own incentive for doing that. Um, but for for me personally, that wouldn't be a a good strategy, really, if I'm trying to develop an artist uh at the stage that we work at. I think ads are good for general awareness. I think it doesn't hurt if you're doing other activity around that um to localise an artist to then target them to go draw attention and potentially bring them in. I think there's good value in that, I would say, personally, as long as you're not over investing, as if it's light touches and just to see how that performance sort of plays out. It's a good test to see is there something here, is there not, something to build on. But my big thing with that is if you're going to do that activity, you've you need something to bring them into. So are you really sort of set up in terms of your Instagram and your socials accounts that once they're listening to you, they've got something they can go back to and really look at and get a good sense of the artist you are and buy into, just doing it for the sake of let's get some numbers up and let's just make it aware. Are you thinking about what's happening once you bring them in? I think that's sometimes where people go a little bit wrong or or they don't have that forward that forward plan in.
SPEAKER_02No, I completely agree. Especially on like uh even looking at social ads, there's no point trying to throw money at something that's not good. Like it's the content strategy of everything. Do you guys work with your artists on the content side of things as well then?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. Um from a belief standpoint, we tend to work a lot with third-party agencies who run our ads. Um, some great companies. Um, I've tried to take a little bit more of a proactive approach to digital marketing, to be honest. I think from my previous experience, a lot of what I did was the traditional marketing, the sort of press, the radio. Just I was also a more junior position. I sort of mentioned I worked under Liberty Wilson, which was great experience, sort of baptism of fire when you're working in that sort of game with real top talk sort of people in the industry. But I learnt from being around real leaders in that space, working the biggest campaigns and doing the nuts and polts quite early on. Um but then that meant I didn't have the exposure maybe to some of the digital side of the job where there was teams and infrastructure in place like across the company that managed that. So going into an indie now, I'm I'm trying to adapt and learn a lot more uh about how to actually do the hands-on stuff and and apply that strategy um in what I'm doing now. And part of that is with the ads team. So I'm looking at how they're outlining their digital strategy. If they're a UK company, you find that a lot of the strategy is very UK focused. Um, they're focusing on right, what's the out now? What's those what are those assets? How much spend? And I have to rake a really keen effort to go, right, well, what are we actually spending behind specifically in these markets so it connects? Because just spending money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, as an indie as well. Like you can't afford to just throw money at everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, spending money on an asset that doesn't feel local, doesn't feel like if it's in again, the copies in a different language, are they gonna really adopt that and pick it up? And I think probably not. Do we need to just go away, build something bespoke, run a dark ad? Are we doing it that way? I think those sort of little differences make a huge difference. And I think a lot of the time people just go, I'm running spend there, and we're hitting these markets that are on our radar, but they're not thinking how is the person on the other end of that really gonna respond to it and and digest it. Um, so I think that's a huge part of building the strategy around ad spend as well.
Fan Activations That Feel Real
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I think we uh spoke at the beginning about you the fact that you've worked with these huge names and still don't believe with the strategy for independent art well, like development artists probably being quite different. What are you doing with the actual fans that they've got? Because it's all well and good to market to new fans, but what are you doing with the existing fans? Are you are you doing a lot there with the larger artists?
Getting Fans To Show Up
SPEAKER_00Yeah, with some of the larger artists, you're always kind of serving them. So just in the sense of you mean like um like fan activations, just activations, pop-ups. Yeah. I mean we generally from uh I sort of touched on how we do promo trips and things like that. When I was at Warner, there was a lot more, obviously the huge artists, there was more the traditional promo trips like the TV appearances and and the radio visits and and things like that. And of course, when you have the local teams in each market, they come up with their own activations that are sort of huge budget, like Ed Shear and let's go and do a huge gallery in in France in the middle of the high street, and then you've they do all that work for you, and of course, fans are there in their masses and and they turn out for Ed Shear, and it's very, very easy to activate that sort of thing, and it's impressive for a more developing junior artist. Uh I say junior, that sounds savage, that way. Developing artists to really break them in, and when they get to a market, what sort of things do we do to engage fans that might be there? It's little things like we've just had an artist called Gurley who's got quite a solid fan base in US. Um so we're trying to double down on that and engage the people that have been there for. From previous uh albums with this new one. So we did this sort of this just happened like the other day, like a raid room, because it's a lot of female empowerment, there's a lot of anger, especially in the US at the moment. And it's about giving them the opportunity to come spend some time with the artist in a space that like feels really native to her. Um, so it was really cool. I've just been sent like some videos through of how it's all gone and it's gone great. And it's about how do you build that authentic connection between the artist and the people on ground, bring them into her world. So that's like an example of how we've we've done that. Like pop-ups, things that she might do anyway, you know, like as a as a as a person in the real world. Like, yeah, she might go to a raid room, yeah, it'd be cool to do it with some friends, cool. Let's get the fans involved for that. Doing those little things when you're in a market, they will remember that, they'll keep coming back, they'll keep listening. So I think doing anything that really feels like you're creating that human connection when you're in market, I think has sometimes a bigger impact and travels as a story better than when it did a radio visit or that sort of thing. So yeah, we do a lot more bespoke um fan activity, I think, really, depending on who the artist is. Like another one we did was uh SL, who's a rapper. There was a uh track on his recent projects about sort of weed and smoking, it was like amnesia or something like that. Um insomnia, sorry. Uh and yeah, we flew him out to the Netherlands, which again was a key market for him. He'd made these like sort of little packs, like the pouches, obviously that like to store weed and whatever in them. Obviously, that wouldn't work in the UK so well, haven't got a lot of weed stores. Gave us the opportunity to have some fans come in for that market, connect with them there, gave away the pouches. You do sort of an activation, of course, where you do your QR code, you get them to scan, pre-save, give them some gifting, things like that. So we do a lot more where I'm at now. How can we bring those core fans in that are really sort of engaged with the artists? How do we make a world for them where they can connect? That seems to be I enjoy that more and I think it matters more, I think, yeah, as the industry develops.
SPEAKER_01How do you know the artist's ready for something like that? Because I uh we work with artists and I bet you get a lot of things. How do you know it turns up? Yeah, is anyone no one's gonna turn up? No one's I'm not sure I can go through with this kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the process like in terms of So knowing when they're ready and fans are going to show up?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true. Very good point. I think we've definitely had it in the past where we've turned up and and it's not being the best turnout in the world, that definitely happens, but that doesn't fall on the artist. I think that's that's my responsibility, really, as a label. If I'm proposing this idea, it will fall on me to really deliver that for them. And I think it's just about assessing where the artist is at. You kind of make that judgment in the sense of if you know the follower base isn't crazy, you're not seeing super super like comments all the time, you need to be here. You're kind of putting up doing a bit more of a push to really get them to come out. You need to plan way further in advance, you need to give it way more notice, you need to talk about it more, you need to hype it a little bit more, hit people up directly, make them aware, sort of things like that. You do things earlier, that's basically the easiest thing. Like you can't just pop up in a market if you're a developing artist and just hope that people will appear, unless you're open to it being general members of the public, and even then there's no guarantee. But planning is is the key thing, getting them on board as early as possible, so it's not a surprise to them. Um letting them know your thinking and your logic behind it, so they get on board as early, and and at the end of the day, you nothing's guaranteed, things happen, but the best thing you can do is prepare as much as possible, really. That's what we find.
SPEAKER_01I assume it relies on a lot of uh the artist's ability to create social media content because you know we get a lot of comments on our podcast saying I don't want to create social media content. I assume you can't do phone activation campaigns without the artist actually creating content, talking to camera and promoting it based on the music alone. I can't imagine you'd be able to get people down. Am I right in saying that?
SPEAKER_00I think you would struggle, definitely. I think it's it's so case by case with the artists. Like I think if they are generally quite elusive, but there's hype, there's ways you can do it on socials that will get them to come regardless. For example, we've got an artist called Chendresser who we've just signed, she's not done much of a face reveal. Um so she's not going to be doing that shout into a camera if there's a pop-up event. To be honest, it's unlikely she's gonna do a pop event. That's just not her style. But if she was to do it, you'd do it in creative ways where you'd have the social media person alluding to things happening, teasing things, dropping Easter eggs. Is it like something in a video piece of content that she's not involved in directly that alludes to her being there? Is it Discord servers as well? That's a big thing that we're focusing on now as well, like community driven. Is it other people spreading sort of oh, I've heard that she's visiting, or or you she's maybe doing just travel stories, things like that, and as well as it's getting closer with her on the plane, that it's not direct, but we're doing work in servers and things like that, um, and on our socials ourselves to make people aware, but maybe without her direct messaging. Does that make sense? I don't know if that's yeah, that's kind of the the strategy you'd kind of have to do. It it it depends really, uh, case by case, but there needs to be some sort of social strategy, but whether they need to be camera facing really sort of varies to be honest. Yeah.
How To Build A Career In Music
SPEAKER_01You mentioned uh Liberty Wilson, who we also had on the podcast, she was your original hire. Like we do get a lot of people asking, like, how do people get into your position? You've had quite the journey from going from being recruited by Liberty at Warner then to where you are now. So, what kind of tips and advice do you have for people to get into your position?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, to be honest, I'm still relatively early in my career. Um, so I don't want to be this fountain of knowledge in the sense of I'm I know everything and I'm so advanced. I think I'm definitely still developing. Um, but it was all down to yeah, the right people at the right time giving you the right opportunities. But how do you yeah craft that situation to happen? It's not all like I think you have to do the right things early on. So I think for me it started like when I was back at university, I studied a music business course. I didn't know exactly where that was gonna mean I would end up. Um, but you just kind of hungry to learn as much as possible. And I think when I went down there, I was naturally drawn to helping artists. I think that has to be at the core of when you're working in music, that has to be the key. Like, how am I gonna really contribute and help artists? The most direct source for that for me was like, find an artist, try and manage them, try and do what you can. So I did that, realised I had no money, realised I had no resource, spoke to my university and they helped me form like a student label. So then it gives you the exposure, and we sort of built this student um team really. There was someone doing the events, there was me doing sort of leading the overall strategy and and sort of the A and R approach, and we had a good stab at it. Obviously, some things didn't work out, but we did some things that work quite well. Um, and I think what that then did was gave me something more to talk about when it comes to applying at some of the universals and the Warners because you have to do something that makes you stand out because everyone wants some experience, everyone wants to know that you've done something previously. Um, and that doesn't mean you have to go and start a label, that could be you just sort of maybe you run a you you've built multiple playlist accounts and you're trying to grow followers there, like show that you're actually interested in what you're applying for, um, and do that early on. So that got me into in uh my first internship at Universal, where I was working in the commercial sales team, and I think the big thing with that is it was never the desired path. Um I just wanted to be in the building, and that was working on the H V and Amazon accounts in physical. It was a great learning point because you you pick up all the nuts and bolts of how you sort of operate and how the building works, and then it's just about when you're in there saying hello, meeting people, and at the time Liberty was in the building and she was sort of knocking about and you sort of pass and things like that, and your name becomes visible and you become you grow following on LinkedIn and things like that. So then when that internship ended, that's when that you moved on to uh to Warner and then was looking for it to build a team, and then you're sort of front and centre of people's mind because you've you're around and you're doing things and you're active and you're showing hunger, and then opportunities come. So it's that was a starting point, obviously, Warner, and getting the opportunity really to kick onto where I'm at now. But there was the things that you do from much younger um that I think really make the difference, to be honest. So, yeah, that would be my biggest advice.
AI Content Versus Authentic Artistry
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we get that a lot. Yeah, people asking, Do you have any vacancies or jobs going on? Well, really, you kind of make your own job in the industry. Like you say, create your own playlist, create your own Instagram account, or reach out to an artist and start helping them in some way, shape, or form. Yeah, definitely. Do you find that your role in the environment's changed in the last say seven years? I mean, AI is obviously the hot topic at the moment, which is Maddy and I were just sort of discussing on the way here the idea of like when or if artists are going to start using like AI-generated videos. Will they accept it? Will they do it? So it's uh you're finding now that the artists are using AI to generate their content.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. For reconstruction too much, there's incentives happening within the believing infrastructure where we're talking about AI video curation through different agencies. And for me personally, I I'm a bit resistant to that. I do think it takes away a level of true artistry. There's am I and I also think people see through it a little bit in the stage that it's in the form that it currently is. I don't think you could probably create, and that's just my opinion, a really digestible, engaging piece of AI that goes, I can see what this artist's vision is and what they're about. You can't replace that person that went to Mexico or wherever it was. I know budgets don't allow, but when people are spending crazy money on these AI videos, or even if it wasn't abroad, you've got a crew, you've got people in a bar or a pub, and you spend a day really thinking about what you want that to look like and presenting yourself in the best way. I don't think AI is ever going to be able to replace that when you're trying to sell your artistry as a real artist. I do think there's a place for it in terms of creating like sort of visualisers, which becomes more and more common now. I think definitely that's an easy fix if you need the asset quickly. In my job as well, international is that producing localised lyric videos that will make a big difference. So there's definitely ways it can be adopted, but I would say uh, yeah, so you've got to be aware of it, you've got to be aware of what's developing, how you can incorporate it, but to think it's gonna fully take over. I like to think we've got a way away to go from that still, and just generally, yeah, in terms of uh adopting new technologies, I'm still learning as much as I can, like the Claudes. I discovered that the other week, it's changed my life, yeah, makes a deck creation far easier. Love that, yeah. So I think definitely my advice is the people that will come into the industry now have will be so far more clued up, as they always have been, as the people that have been there for a long time. You they're they're around it far more than we are. It's not it's new to all of us, but they're just gonna be more native, I think, naturally. I think coming into the game, having that knowledge will set you apart again, like showing that you're ahead of the curve, showing that you are aware of these things and you kind of know how you're gonna implement it into the role, that sets you apart as well. So, yeah, I think having that awareness makes a big difference of new tools, definitely.
SPEAKER_01I do wonder as well, are fan music fans going to accept anything AI generated as well as a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it'll be interesting to see.
SPEAKER_01At the moment, all the AI videos on my Instagram and TikTok are like jokes, like they've used AI to make something stupid, which is obviously AI.
SPEAKER_02Whereas if an artist starts using apart from the visualizers, if they start trying to create something and like fool people into thinking it's real, I think that could sort of Yeah, like using it as well to look like they have a larger fan base because we know that so many people buy streams, buy followers, but what if the content genuinely did make you look popular? Like looks like you're paying live to a huge crowd, looks like you're doing fan activations, like will that fool people to a point where you can actually go do a fan activation?
SPEAKER_00It's so hard to do. It's like what's the end game as well with that sometimes? It's a risky strategy. I'm not saying it won't work because again, if you do it in a really clever way and it is believable, but it's only it's only possible to do that once or twice if someone catches someone doing that.
SPEAKER_02Is that something that people are then like they've caught it? Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's gonna be an interesting thing. But it might even be a couple of months, like the way the things are moving. Um, but I think it's constantly coming back to like all of what we've spoken about about like the community side of it. 100 because it'll be very difficult to keep that and do that with it being either AI content or AI music itself, because you can't play a gig to a fake audience, or you can't play a gig as an AI artist, like it's not gonna have that same feeling.
Direct To Fan And Physical Comeback
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think authenticity 100% is at the centre of everything, organic like real engagement. I think that connection in music, I love it. It feels like you're so woo, like everyone will always be so connected. But I hope so, I hope it doesn't take over. I still think we're seeing it now. I think there's a shift, I think streaming's always gonna be there, but we're seeing there's more of a focus on D2C and more direct-to-fan. Um there's platforms coming up, I don't know if you're aware of like sort of even where obviously the purchasing before the world.
SPEAKER_02You see that working because I I spoke to them a couple of years ago. Yeah, it was a really cool concept, but I hadn't seen many artists at that point succeed with it. Um I don't know if I spoke to you at the time either.
SPEAKER_01I do remember it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02For those watching, listening, even is a platform where one of our artists was. Yeah, JLOL did uh campaign with them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where you can release your music through them and you either set a price or the fan chooses how much they pay. So it's kind of like old day iTunes. It is, yeah. Yeah, a little bit, but you own the physical and they can do like merch campaigns and and all stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's giving that fan, it's giving that fan that feeling of we've got served first, like we've got that early access. I think that always makes a huge difference. I would say there's more and more demand for the director fan, and I think that works globally anyway. Like, again, it's about developing your real core audience remaining lists, Discord chats, giving them that ability to have that access before the rest of the world. I think we're seeing real value in that. Um we're yet to see, I don't think we've particularly rolled out a campaign yet, but when you look at it, it makes sense now. I think that I've got it first is just a game changer, I think, really. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out, and I think we will definitely be trying to implement some of those into our campaigns now.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting, it's a bit like we're seeing some of the things that worked 10, 20 years ago coming back. It's uh maybe it's that nostalgia sort of stuff that people are enjoying again because the world is changing with AI and all this, they kind of want that. We're even seeing it with um Simon Cow's band, what they called D. December 10. December 10, yeah. They've really recently released like kind of like top trump cards, and like this kids are going crazy for it. And it's like it's so nostalgic of like collectible and yeah, like having this collectible, having this like physical thing, and I think we'll we'll see a lot more of that because people want, they have this desire for that physical aspect, but also that community feel as everything is so online that the fan activation stuff, the physical stuff, the merch, all of that. Yeah, I think it's gonna be more and more important.
SPEAKER_01To add to that as well, and tie it into the last point. I've got a weird theory that AI is gonna destroy social media because you're not gonna be able to trust anything that you see anymore, because it's going to get to a stage where two years down the line, it's so real that you can't believe it anymore. I I get sense stuff now of like people driving really fast on a motorway, and I'm like, is that real or not? And if I'm asking that question now, in two years' time, I'm not gonna trust anything. So people are more likely to part with their money to get something physical and real that is that they know for sure that this artist has created. Therefore, people are gonna start um looking more for platforms like that to be able to engage with the artists.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm doing it now, like I have to put blockers on Instagram because it's such information overloads. And I think people are it's always been that way, but we're desensitizing a little bit to it. Yeah, I'm the same, I just do and scroll it and create myself for doing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's also why it's so important from like the artist's perspective to think about like quality over anything else. Because there's just so much shit, like so much, and you don't want to add to that shit.
SPEAKER_00So, like what you're actually trying to say. Yeah, yeah, like there's a purpose for it. Don't just do it for the sake of it. Yeah. Because that's the thing. There is a pressure to post a lot, I get that. But really, what are you trying to say here and why are you doing it? Don't really I'm against it just for the sake of it. That's something we've said recently, actually.
SPEAKER_01I can't remember why we posted that.
SPEAKER_02On Instagram, we did that whole thing about like you think posting more is gonna help the algorithm. Oh, yeah, it was our latest process. Yeah, but if you're constantly posting, it's probably not gonna get great engagement because it's you don't have that much to say. Yeah. Uh posting you've got something to say.
SPEAKER_01And there's so much content out there now, anyway. Yeah. What's the point? You might as well just work hard on one piece of content and hope that it goes out rather than just like bombarding nothingness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
Final Thoughts And Where To Connect
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Good place to end it.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Great. Well, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Where can people find you? LinkedIn, Instagram, where where you are.
SPEAKER_00LinkedIn, yeah. Uh Instagram, uh my email. But uh won't be sharing it on the podcast. Yeah, that's all people have regretted that. Thank you so much. Thank you guys.
SPEAKER_02If you uh enjoy the podcast, make sure to give it a like, leave it a review on podcast platforms, and we'll see you in the next one.