Sam Hahn — How to Motivate the Men in Your Church

TJ got a chance to interview our friend, Sam Hahn, on why relationships between men in many churches, especially rural settings, can feel shallow. They get to chat about how pastors can help cultivate deeper, gospel-centered brotherhood. 

Drawing from Sam's doctoral ministry project, they discuss the need for safe, non-sexualized male intimacy, the biblical priority of men not being alone, and a practical approach for building vulnerability through guided story-sharing in small groups with prayer. 

We hope this conversation can help rural pastors encourage their church members to pursue deep, meaningful relationships with the fellow men in their congregation!

👉 Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a rural pastor who needs encouragement. Your support helps strengthen healthy rural churches for the glory of Christ.

Transcript

Sam Hahn — How to Motivate the Men in Your Church

Hey man, how are you? Uh, you know, life. Yeah. How about yourself? I'm good. Uh, you see any deer lately? Uh, my car did, but not nothing in the field. Hmm. So like, how's your family? Uh, they're, you know, too many to count still. How about yourself? Yeah. Hey, we're busy. So. Well, hey, I guess we'll see you later. Yeah.

Till next, Sam. All right. Do you feel like the conversations between men and your church are a little shallow? If you have ever had that feeling, you are not alone, which is why I've invited my good friend Sam Han here to talk to us today about men and relationships in the rural church. But first, here comes our introduction.

Thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Pastors Talk, a podcast highlighting the advancement of Christ Kingdom in rural places Just like the town you live in, the rural church is not the baby pool we splash around in before moving on to bigger opportunities. It's not the place that we're confined until we can take off the training wheels, and it is not God's penalty box as a punishment for breaking the rules.

No, Jesus died for his people, and as long as Christ's people live in rural places, a vibrant, healthy, multiplying presence of his church will be there too. Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman and I am a rural pastor and also the executive director of the Brainerd Institute for Rural Ministry, and I am joined today by my friend Sam.

Sam, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? I sure can. Thank you TJ, for having me here and, uh, being able to participate in this podcast today. Um, yeah, I started in ministry, um, about 2008. Um, I had come out of active duty in the Army and I then, uh, was coming over to be a reserve army chaplain.

And then from there I went, got my seminary degree, and then went almost immediately into rural ministry, uh, for several years. And that's actually where we met was not too far from here. Dude, I remember seeing you go through Wellsboro on a motorcycle and I was like, I have to be friends with that guy.

The pastor on the motorcycle. It was funny because I was just thinking, I don't wanna die. That's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Shared many good times together and then you moved away. Yes, indeed. Yes. I, uh, God called us away to, um, missions. We went, uh, to serve in West Africa for about, um, uh, two and a half to three years.

Mm-hmm. Before we came back here. And then, uh, God. Reoriented us to new ministry, uh, not too far from here in New York, and it's, uh, just been a privilege to, to follow God where he has led us and we're just hoping this time he has to stay at one place for a very long time. That would be nice. Yeah, for sure.

Although you learned a lot of cool stuff. Absolutely. Timeline. I'm grateful for all of the experiences because it's made me the. The person I am today and and giving me insight into a lot of different ministry context. Absolutely. One of which was super rural. Yes. So just real quick, this is kind of answering the question, how rural a boy are you?

Yes. So tell us, just give us a little bit of your rural street cred. Like what gives you the right to talk to rural people? Well, um, the, uh, the church that I, uh, ministered in was, uh, between two population centers of Wellsboro and, uh, Gaton. And, uh, it was 12 miles each way. So it took, depending on, uh, traffic, you know, took, uh, about 20 minutes to get to any grocery store whatsoever.

Yeah. Um, we had about. Uh, between third 20 to 40 people depending on the given Sunday. Um, mostly farmers. Um, a lot of construction, several construction workers, and, uh, some teachers, but for the most part, just, uh, good old fashioned folk that, uh, loved Jesus. Uh, and, uh, all of the, uh, challenges of, uh, rural life that went along with it that were just a blessing.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You guys did the rural thing really well. Um, and I, I remember just really enjoying opportunities to come over. Even though you're in my county, when you were over there, you are on the edge of the county. Yes. And I felt like I might need my passport just to get to your house. So it, it was out there for sure.

Yeah. Um, and then you've spent some time in bigger places? Yes. So my first, uh, call to ministry was an interim position in Philadelphia, actually at an international church there. And, uh, that was quite a, a shift going from an international church in. The middle of Philly to, um, Wellsboro. And that would, it was a blessed, uh, transition, but a little bit of culture shock.

That'd be culture shock. Yeah. And then I went from Wellsboro to Decar, Senegal. Mm-hmm. And that was another humongous culture shock. Yeah, it is completely. Uh, Senegal is in West Africa about as far west as you can go in west, uh, in Africa. And uh, just an amazing place. Just the grind there is just insane and the people are just colorful and, and an amazing, um, I learned a lot about.

Leadership from my brothers of Christ, from uh, Senegal. Wow. And I'm just grateful to, to, to learn so much from them. Yeah. That's really awesome. Well, we're here today to talk about a project you've been working on. Um, so I don't know if you mentioned this real quick. Yeah. I hadn't yet. Family size. Oh, yes.

Yeah. I have, uh, five kids. Okay. And one amazing wife. Right. There you go. Yeah. It it, coming from Senegal, you had to mention that you had one wife. Ah, I would, I would say, oh, this is my wife and like, we go to like a market. And they'd say, so she, our only wife, and I said, why would I need any more than one wife?

That's right. Yeah. She's perfect. Yeah. Although with five kids, some extra hands around the house just saying. So, alright. And you have five kids, you've had a lot of change in your life. You've learned foreign languages, all kinda stuff. And then for some reason you were like, Hey, why don't I do some doctoral work on top of that?

Right? Yes. I figured I didn't have enough to do, so I might as well, uh, write a doctoral thesis in the midst of it. Yeah. And that's what I wanna talk to you about because you Fantastic. Did a really interesting project or you're still finishing up a really interesting project. On the nature of relationships between men in the, in the church?

Yes. Not specifically rural, although that's kinda the context I want to frame it around. Um, tell us just a little bit about why did you pick this topic? What's sort of the scope of it? So I think, um, there, there's many different pieces of it. I've seen men struggling to have relationships literally around the world.

Mm. Um, and then when I returned from Senegal, uh, the Lord just put on my family's heart that we needed a sabbatical year. During that sabbatical year. Um. I just became very aware of the, kind of the crisis of masculinity in our culture. Um, just young men who have, are just completely directionalist. They, um, there's a, a narrative that says that just by the sheer fact that you're a man, you're, you're naturally a predator.

Things like that. Mm-hmm. You know, those kind of, uh, narratives that are just wrong. And I saw a lot of, a lot of men in need. Of, um, the truth of the gospel. Mm mm-hmm. Really, to be honest. Um, and so then when I started my doctoral thesis work, um, I really wanted to address that masculine crisis. And as I began to hone in on the problem and, and with the, uh, it's a doctorate of ministry, so in a doctorate of ministry, you have to have a specific.

Kind of context that you're doing the project or the intervention that you've designed in. And, um, for me, that was my, uh, local church. Yeah. In, uh, up in New York. And, um, the, uh, all of the men of my congregation were saying. We are longing for deeper relationships with one another. Mm-hmm. There, there had been times in the past where they'd had it, but a lot of, um, COVID and a bunch of other things had happened where they were no longer developing those, those vulnerable relationships.

Tell me a little bit about the demographics of your church. So, um. It's kind of like a boundary between rural and suburban ish. Mm-hmm. So, um, we're right by an airport in a mall. Right. But if you go north of us, it's like all country and open, um, uh, open well country. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, you also have, uh, some population centers like Corning and Omaira nearby.

It's funny when you say urban. Ish ish. People from actual urban areas would laugh at you and be like, that is a tiny little town. But people from Wellsboro would be like, yeah, that's the city. We don't go anywhere near there unless we have to. So they have a third story on the building. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. This is not safe. So, yeah. Um, but I think you fit well within kind of the, the rural mindset. And I, I would take it that the guys in your church, the men in your church that we're talking about. Would kind of be like your just average rural ish kind of guy. Does that sound right? Yes. Yeah, that's, that's about right.

Yeah. We, um, we do have a kind of a, a fair diversity because Elmira is, uh, more, they lower class isn't what I wanna say. It's, uh, they don't have the same financial means like as Corning, and so Corning and El Meyer are kind of like. Dichotomies of, or, uh, polar opposites of one another. Yeah. In terms of, uh, echo socioeconomic status.

Um, but so we have people from both sides. Mm-hmm. So you have some people who are, you know, didn't graduate high school, some people who are, have their doctorates and yeah, a lot of in between. But, um, uh, a lot of people are in the, that. Rural environment. 'cause many people live where, you know, they go hunting in their backyard.

Yeah. Right. You know, they, they, uh, go fishing in their backyard. Yeah. And, uh, so a lot of the, the rural mindset is still there. So these men were saying to you, we don't have the kind of relationships we want. Or was it kind of like the wives saying, the guys in the church don't have the real right relationship?

Surprisingly, it was the men. Wow. Like, it, it was the first time where I've actually been in a place where the men actually recognized. Mm-hmm. And we're able to articulate their need for relationships with one another. In that way, why did you as a pastor, think, okay, this is something we should actually talk about?

'cause there's lots of things that get brought up. That people want us to mm-hmm. Focus on. Um, and we have to kind of decide, here's something I'd invest or not. And you invested all the way to saying, I'm gonna take this to the dissertation level or the thesis level. Yeah. Yes. Um, why did you agree? What, what about the nature of relationships or the nature of relationships and your church made you feel like, yeah, I gotta dig in on this.

Well, in general, I just, I really feel like men need relationships with one another. And there's not a whole lot of spaces for men too. Have that healthy, intimate relationship without it being construed in some sort of weird sexual way. Mm-hmm. Like a lot of times the way we construe intimate relationships between men is like, there's, there's this, uh, sexual component.

It's like, absolutely not. So like for instance, right now our knees are almost touching. I've bumped your knee at least three times. Um, and I, if we were both wearing camo right now, we'd have to be like a hundred feet apart. Yes. Just as the unspoken rule. Yes. Because that's kind of how it goes in the rural church.

So what is it? And just, just your opinion. I, I don't think your dissertate or your thesis focuses too much on this, but, um, what is your opinion on why is it guys are so afraid of there being a sexual assumption based on a close male re relationship? Do you have any thoughts on that? Um, I think it has a lot to do with feminism, but where, um, the, just where we've confused the sexual relationship.

Um, from the sixties on. Yeah. And, uh, I wish I could go into a little bit more here, but I probably don't have the time. But the, uh, I think what has happened is, is that, um, when we've broken down the barrier between men and women to say, uh, men aren't allowed to have women's spaces, that means that a lot of that, because we don't have a place anymore like the Boy Scouts.

Now have women and girls in the Boy Scouts. Sure. There's no place for men to just be men. Mm-hmm. And so as a result, that sexual component is brought into everything. And then you bring in the breaking down the barriers of even people, even being able to define what a man and a woman is then, then everything has been become sexualized because we don't even know what sex is for anymore.

Right. And as a result, when I have another relationship with another man, I. That question has to get asked by our culture. It shouldn't be, but as gets asked by the culture, is this a, is this a sexual relationship? And it's like there's that, that, that shouldn't even be a question. Yeah, that's right. It's like, I'm, I, I have a, a.

A man that I have a, a, a deep relationship who I say, I love you too. Who, you know, we cry together. We, we confess our sins together. We go and fight together with each other sometimes and against each other sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And, you know, and we're able to, um, dig into the, the, uh, realities of what does it mean to be a man as a God-fearing man.

Mm-hmm. And, and, and I think it's, it, it's. It is not a sexual thing. It is a, it is a part of who we are. God created us to be in relationships with men. Like for sure. Uh, everybody would've said, oh, if, if Jonathan and David were brought to 21st Century, everybody would be like, oh, they're a couple, aren't they?

And it's like, no, they're, there's, there's nothing sexual about the relationship between John, Jonathan and David in the Bible. Right? Yeah. They, they had a deep, intimate relationship that was spiritually bound by God, so that Jonathan could strengthen David in his time of need and David could strengthen Jonathan.

Yeah. And we need that, and we've lost that. Do you use that example in the thesis at all? Yes, I do. How do you use it? Um, pretty much just what I said. Okay. It's, uh, that, that, um, just, I just, in the thesis, I wanted to demonstrate several places where men have relationships with one another. And that this is something that the Bible prioritizes.

Mm-hmm. It's not just simply something that's there, but it's something that the Bible prioritizes that men, because the Bible starts by saying, it's not good for me men to be man to be alone. And yes, the very first relationship is the sexual relationship between the man and his wife. Sure. But we are created as hyper relational beings.

Yeah. People, uh, creatures. And we, uh. We are, we need relationships with one another. It's, it's part of ingrained, even me as a profound in introvert. Yeah. My idea of a party is, uh, is around a campfire by myself, maybe one other person to share a deep story, but even I need, uh, I need relationships. Yeah.

Introverts, extroverts, everybody needs. And especially men need relationships with men. Yeah, that's right. So tell, tell me just a little bit about the process of going about the thesis. Did you have to do research first? Yeah, it's, uh, so you, um, first off, you, you identify a problem in your immediate ministry context.

Mm-hmm. And so, as I mentioned before, mentioned, uh, the relationship between men and then you have to then, uh, do research. You have to see, um. You know, what is everybody else saying about this? Are there other people talking about the relationships of men, men's issues? Like then also, um, a key piece of my thesis is, is to develop relationships between men and develop vulnerable, intimate relationships between men.

You need something around which you can develop that relationship. And so the, uh, I use the sharing of one another's stories. Okay. And so then I looked into what does it mean to, what is a story? What, how do you share that story? And then, um, tell me, I'm not sure I totally understand what you mean. So when you say you have to have something around to develop the relationship around, what, what do you mean by that?

So, so to develop a, a vulnerable relationship, it's like. I'm gonna invite you over to my house, right? Mm-hmm. And you're gonna come into my house and you're gonna see my kid climbing up the wall. The dog just pooped over in the corner. Sure. You know? Yeah. I haven't done dishes in, in a month. And so I'm gonna, you come over to my house and I'll just kind of poke my head out the, the door and say, um, yeah.

Uh, thanks for coming by. Uh, how can I help you? Sure. Then I'm gonna shut the door 'cause I don't want you to see all of the mess. Mm-hmm. Even if you've come over to help me with a mess. Well, vulnerability is the, uh, the, so I need some sort of context to say, how do I explain what's going on in my house?

Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's just, I just need to do some dishes. Right. Other times it's like, I, my house is a mess and I need somebody to come in and help me. Mm-hmm. And the door is the, the, the pathway of like the door is vulnerability. Got it. It's saying, I am letting you in to see the glory of my mess. Right.

And just to be clear, you're using a metaphor? Yes. To describe your life in general. Yes. Saying I'm cracking the door and you can see into my life a little bit. Yes. Which is not natural apart from some kind of central agreed upon thing that you guys are working through. Is that e Exactly. Right. Okay.

Because if you just said some, put two people together and said, now go be vulnerable. Right? It's like, well, what, what does that mean? It's like our intro. Yeah. Hey man, how are you? Fine. Yeah. You know, it's that kind of stuff. It's like, why do you talk about, it's exactly that. That's right. You put two guys together and just, they talk, they'll look at each other, scratch their arms, say, well, okay, see you next time.

Yeah. Um, but if you say, Hey, you know what, what's happened in your story and everybody loves to talk about themselves, right? Yeah. I love to talk about myself. I, everybody loves to talk about themselves, but, but moreover, um, I, I developed some tools to help men not only talk about themselves, but pro. So it was really interesting 'cause I had them process their story with other men.

Mm-hmm. So what were the, the, the low lights? Like what are the, the wilderness journeys you went through, what were the blessing, highlight moments, and the question of what was God doing in the midst of it all? Yeah. And then instead of the guys being like, okay, here's how you fix it. Um, they just prayed for each other.

Wow. And, and I was surprised I shouldn't have been, but I was surprised how much that that piece of praying for each other afterwards made people feel, seen that this element of, uh, drew them together. So help me out. How did you actually get the guys into the room together? Is it, I'm picturing like, speed dating, you know, like, tell me something about you and I'm gonna pray for you to move on to the next guy.

Like, yeah. So here's, I, uh, it was basically in groups of triads. Okay. So, um. It was voluntary on the guys' part? Yeah. Every, the participation in my study was voluntary. Okay. So there was about, um, 11 guys. Mm-hmm. So we had four triads I, I participated in. Okay. Um, and the guys were able to, um. They stayed with each other.

So I, I selected the triads. Sure. 'cause um, I, I tried to get a kind of like a generational. Yeah. Um, mix in each triad as a good shepherd Should do. Yes. That's good. Yes. Yeah. And uh, also I tried to get it so guys who didn't know each other were in the same triad. Oh yeah. So that, this way you didn't have like two guys who were like.

You know, best buddies, buddy buddies, and then there's the third wheel. Yeah. Yeah. But, and so, um, so in the triad, so one of the key elements of this is you need a safe place to be able to share your story. Mm. And I think that's a part of it, is that in developing closer, intimate relationships, uh, there's a, a big piece of it where I think confession is so important.

And I don't, I, I mean confession of sin, but not just confession of sin. Okay. Like, um. For instance, it's, it's the confession of what is going on in your soul. Like, what is going on in your heart? Like, um, how many men are crying out the Psalm words of Psalm 23? My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Mm. And have, feel like they have nowhere.

They can, they can say that to like nobody, no other men in the church. They can go and say, Hey, I on the edge of my faith, right. I feel like God has forsaken me. Like, um, and then, well, can I interrupt you there? Yeah. You experienced a time in your life like that? Yes. We have another podcast called Back to Rurality, where we talked about that a little bit.

When you were overseas and went through a deep time, what was it like for you to not have those kind of guys that you could go to? Um, it was much more difficult. Um, my, I do have one friend that we've just kind of been through a lot together and, um, I knew that if I gave up on my faith, I would have to tell him.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. But he wasn't there with you? He wasn't physically there with me. No. Right. Um, spiritually he was. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Um, and then he had to do the same for me other times too, so. Yeah. Um, but no. Yeah, because I didn't have, there is, and I'm glad you asked that there is a very important piece of being able to have people who are physically there with you.

Yeah. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's, you know. Over the phone, sometimes it's over zoom, you know, whatever. But, um, there's an incarnation piece that we absolutely, I think is absolutely necessary. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, to if, to be able to have somebody to go to and say, Hey, this is where I'm struggling with.

Eventually there was some other older missionary couples that were able to come around me and help me out. Yeah. But, uh. There. Yeah. It's so profoundly important to have those other men to be able to, did you go through any seasons where you didn't wanna be vulnerable?

That's a good question. So I went through seasons where I didn't understand the importance of vulnerability, but once I had experienced the treasure of vulnerability and intimacy, especially with other men. Yeah. Um. I never wanted to go back, if that made sense. Yeah. Like it's like you saw how precious and wonderful it was that when it was missing, it was such a gulf.

Yeah. And, uh, I mean, there are times where it was like, there was a, there was a, something I needed to confess. Either a sin or, uh, you know, there was a, an an emotional battle that was going on that Satan was like, no, you don't need to share that. And those were the ones where. I struggled the most where I was just wrestling with, I don't need to share with my brother that I'm struggling with my faith.

And then the more I wrestled with it, it was like, no, I, it's not, I don't want to, I absolutely have to otherwise. Mm-hmm. This is gonna go poorly, so. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Alright, so back to the study. Yes. You have the guys together, you're teaching them to confess. Yes. How does that work? Um, did pretty well actually.

Uh, it, it, it, it, I created a little tool where it's just, you, you take first guys sit in the room and just tell their testimony to each other. Mm-hmm. But not their testimony of how they became a Christian, though. That's obviously an element of it. All the participants were Christians. Yeah. Um, but it was, uh, tell us your story.

Through becoming a Christian. Mm-hmm. Up until this point. Mm-hmm. Um, and just the spiritual growth and the ups and downs. And then we went and had a, it was like a three week timeline where you, you first week you looked at all the, all of the, the, the trauma, loss, and brokenness in your life. You put it on the bottom half of your timeline.

Okay. And so then you looked at it and you just said, here's there. I had several questions ask, you know, like, what if you could do something over, what would you do differently? Like, what, what was happening in this moment that was so impactful where, and help them really process through that so that then like you and I would be saying that you'd be asking me the questions and then I'd be telling you and then you'd pray for me after I shared that.

Um, and it created a tight bond. And then, um, then the blessings and the cool part was. Well, it was interesting for me. I actually had harder time writing out my blessing timeline than I did my, uh, because I complain a lot. I, I think I'd be right there with you, brother. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but you got to see how, um, your blessings and the trials were linked.

Mm. And in ways that I didn't necessarily expect. And then you were able to see the third thing we did was what was God doing in those? Okay. And that, that question of what was God doing? Um, was, was very helpful because then they could see that this wasn't, this wasn't just something I went through.

Mm-hmm. But God is forming each and every one of the men of the triad. Yeah. At differently and different moments, uh, for his glory. But each went through different blessings and trials to get there. Do you think that. Guys need to be willing to share everything, all the details of stuff that's happened in their lives.

Are there closets that shouldn't be opened?

Yes and no. Okay. So, um, there are only gonna be a handful of people, a very few select few where it's like, these are the guys. Not only am I gonna share every door I possibly can, but these are the guys that are gonna go in and kick down doors for me. Mm. When they see that, Hey, and I've had my friends who have been like, I think you're, I think you're BSing me here, right?

Yeah. I'm gonna kick down this door. And it was like, oh, crud. There was that, that, that's where the, uh, that's where the fire was. Okay. Yeah. Got it. Um, but then, and those guys, you know, those are like the, the inner circle, like let's say Peter, James, and John, just. Hypothetically speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, um, and then you'll have more people who you're able to share more with.

But, um, the further out you go, um, the, I don't think you need to share every single room of your soul with every single person. There's only because then, um, not everybody's gonna be able to treat it the same way. Yeah. If that makes sense. It does. And so to have that intimate relationship, there needs to be safety.

To be able to be vulnerable. Mm-hmm. And, and, and it's more than just a physical safety, but an emotional safety to know this guy's got my back. Yeah. And so that when I share this deep part of my soul, he's going to receive it knowing that he's got my back. So a lot of the guys listening now are gonna be pastors.

Yes. You know, I thought about, as we talked about this interview of helping pastors think about how to kinda unlock relationships between men in their church. I'm thinking right now though, about the pastor himself. Mm-hmm. And the need to have these kind of relationships. Yes. Do you encourage pastors to develop this close of a relationship with members of the church?

Depends on the church. Okay. Um, I, I think that. The nature of being a pastor is the nature of dual relationships. Mm-hmm. 'cause you're a counselor, you're a pastor, you're a teacher, you're sometimes a father, you're, you know, there's, there's a bunch of different relationships that all come together in being a pastor.

Um, and so I, and secondly, um, a lot of times when you develop these relationships, they're in your closest community. Well, as a pastor, where's your closest community? It's probably gonna be your church. Yeah. Um, so. I do think that it's, it's good when you're able to have it within your same congregation, especially if that person is in a similar level of leadership, like with your elders.

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, if there's an elder that you can, um, have that tight level of relationship with rock on. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, would it be, kinda in your mind, would it be similar to a parent how there's a progression in the relationship? Yes. And maybe some of the relationships even with just.

You know, average Joe Church member could progress to that level. Yes. Um, but there's kind of like levels of maturity that they would need to have to process some things and probably some levels of maturity you'd need to have too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, so let's say a pastor takes the advice and he is vulnerable.

Mm-hmm. Shares his story, confesses not just sin, but what you're saying, this is my life, this is how I felt in this moment, whatever. And somebody mishandles that in the church. It hurts. Have you gone there? Yes. Okay. Oh, very much so. Um, that, that's, that's the difficult part of it is, um, vulnerability is a risk and it's a high, was is a high reward, high loss.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Proposition. Yeah. And, um, and yes, if you, if you take that risk. There is a possibility that somebody will abuse that risk. Yeah. And, and that's a, that's tragic. Mm-hmm. Um, at the same time, you could take that risk and, and gain one of the greatest. Um, opportunities to reveal the gospel to another man Yeah.

In your congregation that you wouldn't have otherwise. So, in one sense, you're asking which is worse? Which is the greater risk, never opening up or opening up and getting hurt? Never opening up, right. Because, um, what will happen is, so when we confess our sins, our hurts, our emotions, our brokenness is to one another, it.

Disarm Satan. Hmm. Because what Satan's gonna do is he's gonna try to isolate you, especially as a pastor. He's gonna say, you're the only one who feels this way. And like Elijah. Yeah, right. God's like, uh, 700. Yeah. Thousand or there's more. Yeah. Seven. Yeah. Haven't bowed their knee. So, uh, that's right. Get off the ground and That's right.

Buck up. But no, um, that's right. Uh, no, but, so Satan will try to isolate you. Satan will try to keep you in your depression alone and then eventually start whispering the words of deconstruction in your Mm. Wow. And so in that, um, it is, is absolutely essential that. As a pastor, you have somebody with whom you can be vulnerable with and confess what's going on in your soul.

It doesn't necessarily have to be in your congregation. Sure. So it, it sometimes there's, there's good, it's great to have other pastors who understand the battle at hand. Mm-hmm. Um. Can laugh with you, can cry with, you can kick down doors for you if you need it. And um, maybe it's somebody that you grew up with.

Other Christian brother and sister who, or no, another Christian brother. Yeah. Um, right. 'cause we're speaking specifically about men here. Yeah. Another Christian brother who can, you know, maybe somebody outside of the particular church that's okay too, but, well, part, part of my testimony is moving to this area and being super depressed because.

The sun doesn't shine here. I mean, if I could turn the camera out there. We had a meeting before this, we couldn't see to drive into the place where the meeting was. I was just like, I guess this is the road still. Like, you know, it was so foggy and gross. That's happens a lot in the winter around here. And I let my flesh drive and I mm-hmm.

Fell into some depression. That was around the time I met you and I was. Thinking. I'm like the only pastor out here, you know, there's no one else. And then I saw you on your motorcycle and I was like, there's another pastor. And like, get him. Yeah. And you inviting me into your home, us making pasta, hanging out, watching John Piper conferences and all that kind stuff.

Got about that. Yeah. That got me through a season that was particularly hard and. There was enough relationship there where I could share some of that stuff with you. I don't know how much I shared with you at the time. I think I was learning to be less guarded. Yes. Um, but just knowing that you understood where I was coming from, we had similar, similar theological leanings.

Um, our families were around the same age. Same size. Mm-hmm. That kind of thing. That helps me in ways that the Lord just really multiplied in my life. So praise God. Yeah. Um, and so I'd wanna say to the person watching this or listening who doesn't have that, seek it out. Absolutely. Um, you know, you're not necessarily gonna find a perfect match, but you're gonna find somebody that understands part of where you're coming from.

And also, even if they don't fully understand, they care. And that's something that you and Jen really demonstrated. So yeah, really appreciate that. Okay. To kind of move in a direction that maybe would give the guys some stuff to sink their teeth into and apply in their church. Mm-hmm. How would you encourage somebody who goes, yeah, I wish the men in my church had better relationships to even get started with cultivating that.

Yeah. Because if you say, Hey guys, let's have vulnerability triads. Well, they will run you out. No, that's right. Yep. They're gonna call you gay and say you gotta go. Yeah. Right. No. If so, um, guys tend to, especially when you're thinking in a rural setting, like, um, uh, like if you have like a lot of farmers in your church, or even if you have an older church, maybe like in more like a, a.

Like the Boomer generation or maybe the late generation X, um, they're gonna be a lot, uh, more guarded, I think. Mm-hmm. About relationships. And so I don't think you can just approach it, say, Hey, let's do triads where we talk about our feelings. But what you can do is you can do something like have a bonfire, say, Hey, have all the guys over at Bonfire, and then say, here's the question we're gonna be discussing today.

What was it like when you. Came to know Jesus and, and, and just put seed questions in there. The problem is, as we say, oh, I want everything to be organic, to just naturally happen. Right? And if you've ever done any organic farming, organic farming takes significantly more work than, um, industrial farming because you don't have the antibiotics, you don't have the pesticides.

And so you have to be a lot more diligent about. Building up that thing, and that's why it costs so much. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And so when you have that organic moment around the campfire or. Um, even if you're doing a project together, but seeding it intentionally with questions that lean towards vulnerability.

Like, um, say, Hey guys, we're gonna talk about, um, the question, how did you come to know Jesus? Do you know Jesus? Yeah. Or, you know, what was the first time you, I, I can't come up with any on the fly right now, but like, what was the first time you, uh, um. I, I can't come up with a question. That's all right. I apologize.

I get your point though. You're saying, you know, you in your mind as a shepherd have some questions that you've planned on. Yeah. You're not holding tight-fisted. Like, I gotta force these questions into the conversation. Yeah. But to the best of your ability, you're gonna try to generate some conversation and Yeah.

Ask questions. And you know, that's one thing that actually, when I did biblical counseling training, I didn't realize. I was so poor at asking questions. Mm-hmm. And I think that's something maybe a lot of rural pastors need to work on is how do you ask good questions Yes. And not talk about yourself, or not talk about the weather, not talk about the deer or whatever.

But yeah, you're trying to draw people out all the time, so Yeah. I can tell how, how expert somebody is in a particular field by the questions they ask. Yeah. It's, I don't care. You can tell me everything, you know, but until you ask me a question about your particular field. Yeah. And so. When it comes to your congregation, you're supposed to be the expert.

Mm-hmm. So what kind of questions are you asking? That's so good. To, uh, help them develop closer together. And, and, and then when you do things like that, you'll be able to see that there'll probably be one or two guys that understand this. Yeah. And then you take those guys who want to go deeper and maybe then you, you have a Bible study, say, Hey, we're doing a Bible study, but the first part of the Bible study is share your testimony.

Mm-hmm. From. Through your salvation into today. Yeah. And just have them, and I, I've been surprised how many times I've done this and the guy said, I've never told anybody that. Yeah, dude, we did an elders retreat. Mm-hmm. And we did this. And the number of guys that said, I've never told anybody that, amazed me.

And the commonality then that they began to recognize that they shared that they otherwise would never have known. Yes. Came out and it was a whole lot of like, wow, man, me too. Um, is amazing. The, and our elders developed relational equity with each other in that moment that we couldn't have gotten any other way that has paid dividends for the sake of the church over time.

Yes. Yeah. And, and one danger about, um, like especially if you have like a bonfire and just a bunch of people over, is that. I'm going back to what I said about varying circles of intimacy. Mm-hmm. The danger is, is like, I want everybody to feel this particular way. So I, I have this expectation that everybody's gonna be crying by the end of it.

Right. No, yeah. Like, you'll more likely get that in the smaller, more intimate groups. Mm-hmm. And then expect the more people you have in a group, the less, um, intimacy you can develop, but you can start planting those seeds. Yeah. Right. To use a, a farming illustration. There you go. You're gonna start.

Throwing out the seeds and the wine. I knew you were really rural. Yeah. Yeah. And you've read your Bible? Yes. Yeah. Some will spring up. Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah. That's really good. Um, yeah, I think that's really helpful, Sam. Um, is there anything else that I should have asked you that I've not asked you? Um, I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

All right. As, as a, I'm at the very tail end of the, the doctoral process. Okay. So my brain is like soup right now. I understand. Well, you've shared a lot of that soup with us, and it didn't come across as anything other than great. So praise God. Golden nuggets. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so, yeah. Uh, oh, you know what?

There's an interruption. Do you hear that? I think I hear. It's an SOS and you have no idea what that means, do you? Not a clue. Well, our listener should know by now, and if not, they're about to learn. This SOS is going out 'cause we need your help getting this podcast out to more people. So, SOS stands for first, you're gonna subscribe.

You can see I think I'm doing this right. Um, there's overlays that are supposed to be popping up on the screen. If you see me looking away and clicking stuff and they're not popping up. That's just my technological failure. If they are popping up, then I'm really happy. And, uh, this one says subscribe if you're looking at this on YouTube.

And if you're not, if you're listening, audio head on over to YouTube and check that out too. And if you're on YouTube and you wanna get the audio podcast, you also can do that. Either way, subscribe. We would really appreciate that. That's the first s then there's the O. If you would offer a five star review that would help us so much.

And I'm not doing this like cheeky, oh, give us five stars 'cause we're so sweet. Whatever. I'm, I want you to help me manipulate. Okay. There's an algorithm out there that prefers podcasts with really good reviews and ratings. If you think there's value to be had here, and you'd like more rural pastors to have access to that, it would just really help us if you would go on Apple Podcasts, leave a five star review so that this can get out to more people.

Um, and you could do that anywhere that you listen to or watch the podcasts. Super helpful if you have constructive criticism. The place to give that really probably isn't the review, but send us an email. Um, you can email rural pastors@gmail.com. Rural, R-U-R-A-L, pastors@gmail.com and we would love to hear your feedback.

So that's the O. And then there's the third uh, letter, which is another S and that is, if you could share this, just think of one other pastor that you could say, Hey, cool episode Sam Hanh was on. They talked about guys being more vulnerable with each other on rural pastors talk. Share that with just one of your friends.

That would really encourage us. We wanna see a healthy church in every rural community in the country. At least every place where there's a Dollar General, um, there ought to be a healthy church there. And so you can help us in that by giving in into our requests. Dare I say, demands. With this SOS, we really, really appreciate that.

Uh, and then there's also something I didn't tell you about Sam. Um, this is a little segment we like to call and I don't have anybody to say it with me, so I'm gonna say it weird myself. Ready stuff. Rural pastors can use reviews. Did you get through that? Okay. Yes, sir. Do you still wanna be my friend? Yes.

Okay. After all that? Yeah. That's great. Um, and that's where we just take a second and we review some resources. Okay. Um, I would like it if you could review your dissertation, your doctoral program with us. Just tell us a little bit, how did you get into this? Why did you pick it? Where are you at? That kind of stuff.

Yeah. Um, I, I, my doctoral program is, uh, through Liberty University online. Um. Partially because it was the cheapest because I was a veteran and they have really good veteran discounts. That's awesome. Um, also it was, uh, it was just a good program all around. Yeah. And I didn't have to go anywhere to do it.

Mm, that's great. Um, yeah. What do you, what are the prerequisites? Um, I can't remember off the top of my head, but a Master's of Divinity, I believe was the, uh, the, the bare minimum. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, because it's a doctorate to ministry, they, they. You have to have some sort of ministry context in which you are writing your, your thesis.

Yeah. So by the time you get to your thesis, you, they're, they're gonna ask you, what is your ministry context? I mean, they're, makes sense. That's a broad. Sure. A broad thing. So, so here's the thing. I have no advanced degrees. I have a degree in integrated social studies education. It's a ba and I got it from Cedarville University many moons ago, 2000.

Five. I graduated. Um, when did you do your undergrad? I did my undergrad. I graduated 2004. Okay, so you're one year older than me. Yeah. Or you got started before me, one or the other. Um, and you, um, went where? I went to Houghton College. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And then, um. You got your MDiv. Where'd you do that?

Yes, uh, Philadelphia, biblical University now. Crin. Univers? Yeah. Okay. Nice. I was like the last class to have the PB uh, yeah. On my diploma. Nice. So I, I, I hold that with, with a bit of pride. Say, yeah, that's great. So I didn't do that. I didn't go to seminary. The Lord called me into ministry before seminary.

I've taken classes a bunch of times. Um, I'm enrolled at Midwestern. Will I finish? I don't know, maybe, um, I call it the Methuselah track. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So, uh, doing the work of learning and growing all the time is what's important. What a piece of paper said, not necessarily important, however, here's what I'm getting to is I think lots more rural pastors should have advanced degrees.

I think it's really helpful. And if its, if it would serve you and your community and your church. To pursue more of an education, it sounds like this would be a really good program. How difficult was it to do while being a dad of five, a husband of one wife and, um, pastoring? Um, I had to, I ended up taking, doing a lot of the, the prerequisite, like, so I, it's a pastoral, uh, it's doctorate ministry and pastoral counseling, and I did a lot of the prerequisites when I.

During my sabbatical year. Mm. And so I did take a sabbatical year to do part of it, but, um, it was doable as I have a fantastic board of elders. Mm. And so they let me use, uh, archive sermons that I had written. Previously Right. And I just tailored, tailored them for my current congregation. That's cool enough.

Running out. So I need to finish my doctorate. Nice. Yeah. That's great. But so that was grateful. I was grateful for that. 'cause then I could use, uh, time that I would've used writing sermons to write my thesis. Yeah. And so that was, that was, that was really beneficial. But it wasn't impossible. It was, it was definitely, um.

Definitely worth it. It, it, it is a, for the level of degree I'm going for, it was a, uh, it was a very high intellectual and emotional, um, commitment. Yeah. Like even more than it was a time commitment. Okay. That for me anyway. Your soul's in this thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's many times where I was like, I looked at my wife and I said, Jen, is there.

Uh, if I, if I quit now, can I, can I call myself a dropout? Oh, man. Yeah. She said at the doctoral level, you're just a quitter. You can't, yeah. There, that's, I was like, I didn't wanna be called a quitter. I thought, I thought being a dropout might be cool, but, but not a quitter. I'm way too past the, the time where it mattered, but yeah.

No, it was, it's doable. It just, uh, being aware that it, uh, um, it requires some energy and stuff. Yeah. But it's worth it. Yeah. Right. That makes sense. Cool. Well, maybe you can use that as a rural pastor, that might be some stuff you can use. Uh, well that brings us to the end of this episode. I hope that this has been useful for you.

If you have questions for Sam, or you wanna find out more about 'em, Sam, where can they go? Um, you can go to, uh, the church's website, which is marath bible chapel.org, and you can contact me there or, um, ask the church a questions. Um, or you can come attend church on Sunday morning. Ooh. All right. At 10 o'clock.

Invitation to church. That's great. Yes, sir. Yeah. Very good. Well, brother, thank you for being here. It's been a delight and I'm happy to be a friend of yours. Yes, me too. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. Well, uh, thanks for tuning into this episode and Joe isn't here to say it.

You know what he says. Right. If you don't, you gotta go back and watch the last episode. Where he'll say it. So I'm just gonna sign off with this. Thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Pastors Talk. This is the podcast that highlights the advancement of Christ's people in rural places.

Just like the town that you live in. We want to see the spread of God's glory. So please would you share this, uh, offer, review, and subscribe That would really do our hearts good. Above all of that, go serve Christ faithfully, even in the middle of nowhere, and we'll see you next time.