How to Grow Your Church with Better Music

In this episode of Rural Pastors Talk, TJ Freeman and pastors Joshua MacClaren and Joe Wagner discuss church music and whether “better music” can save a struggling rural ministry. 

After swapping childhood music memories, they talk about why music matters and how churches often treat it as the quick fix for low attendance or discontent members. They contrast different approaches, from full bands to YouTube backing tracks, and argue that singing is meant to encourage one another, not to perform or attract crowds. 

The guys encourage pastors to aim for faithfulness and teach a biblical theology of congregational singing. They also share some more practical advice such as: choose simpler, thematically fitting songs, and use a service leader to guide the church through worship.

Transcript

How to Grow Your Church with Better Music

Yeah. Did you hear that the entire Turner family is leaving? Oh, not the Turners. They've been here forever. Where? What's their issue? I heard that they didn't think the sermons had enough scripture and the new visitors who've been coming for like a couple months. Yeah. I love thought we, yeah man. I thought they were gonna stick around.

They're leaving too. Oh man. What's their issue? Eh? They were hoping for more discipleship. Well, I guess I know what we need to do now. What do we need to do now? Kick Sister Margaret off the piano and get better worship music. Thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Pastors Talk, a podcast highlighting the advancement of Christ's Kingdom in rural places just like the town you live in, the rural church is not the baby pool we splash around in before moving on to bigger opportunities.

It's not the place we're confined until we can take off those training wheels and it has not God's penalty box as a punishment breaking the rules. No, Jesus died for his people. And as long as Christ's people live in rural places, a vibrant, healthy, multiplying presence of his church will be there too.

Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman. I am a rural pastor and the executive director of the Brainerd Institute for Rural Ministry, and I am joined today by some of my homies. What's going on guys? Joshua McLaren, uh, pastor at Christ Church in Mansfield. Hey, uh, my name is Joe and I am a rural pastor in Wellsboro as well.

All right. Well, we are delighted to join you on this episode. We were where we are talking about much more than music. Mm-hmm. Uh, on this episode we are gonna talk about some things, some songs from our childhood, I guess that's music related. Mm-hmm. Anyway. Uh, we're gonna talk about music in your church and whether or not that is the magic bullet that can save your ministry.

We have a quote in there somewhere. I didn't look at what kind of quote it was yet. Ah. Hoping it gets good. I'm hoping it's good. I picked it. Yep. Oh, uh, you said it's a quote from Steven Whitmer to make you get here, but that was last week. Okay. It's a quote by Spurgeon. Okay. I missed last week. Who's like a heart surgeon. Whose bigger sturgeon.

Oh, okay. We'll go with that, I guess. And you can check in last week and hear Dr. Whitmer's quote. There you go. That was really good. Yep. That'd be great. But yeah. Um, and, uh, we'll also close with something that you can definitely use more of in your life if you are a rural pastor, and I'll tell you about that at the end.

But for now, here's our question. Big important question. What music do you remember from your childhood? Ba ba, ba, ba. Buy the tiger, baby. I. Watched Rambo? Not, well, it wasn't Rambo, it was Rocky three so many times. And when that song would come on the movie, I'd crank it up on the TV and I would record it on my cassette player.

Oh man. Yeah, because I loved it so much. It was a good tune for sure. Um, when I think about my childhood, I remember I was often in the back of the minivan and in the back of the minivan, you didn't have any control whatsoever of the music. And my parents were, they like classic rock kind of stuff. But particularly the sticks and REO Speedwagon groups like that.

But that song I'm sailing away. That one comes to mind. Sing it. Yeah. You got it. I see you sail away. Oh, sail away. No, no, not that one. Not that one. I'm sailing away. There you go. Oh, I think I had the chorus anyway, since I was a kid. Like last years. You weren't weren born. Yes. Tell us about the new kids since I was a kid last year.

Not even new kids. You were Backstreet Boy or something? Yeah. Uh, well, no, that's. Were the back. Well, you were born after the Backstreet Boys. Yes. That's gross to think about. Oh my goodness. Sorry guys. I was raised, boys are like the BB King. I wasn't raised like a heathen, so we only listened to contemporary Christian music.

So it was Toby Mack and Jeremy Camp. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. My brother-in-law introduced me to Skillet, which then led to anger, listening to a lot, a lot of heavier things. But I've been told that I look like. Front man for skillet, so I don't know. Yeah, you got a little John Cooper in you. John Cooper? Is that his name?

Yeah. John Cooper Mellencamp. Uh, nope. No. Okay. That's John Cooper. Yeah. Great. Well, anyway, um, it's fun to think about the kind of music you listen to as a kid. I'm sure it shapes you. Music is a significant part of our lives as humans. Why do you think that is? God is a singing God. Ooh. And the guy who creates us. Bring it.

John, I'm just, well, I'm just, you know. He, he says he's gonna sing over his people in redemption, which is pretty cool. And if we're made in his image, then we inevitably will be creatures who enjoy singing in music as well. Yeah, that's great. You have any thoughts on that? I think we just really enjoy good music and good lyrics and it stirs us and fires us up, or calms us down or makes us sad, or makes us hap, makes us happy.

Yeah. Why is that, Joe? It does it to our souls. So yeah, actually we're, I had to think that through emotional beings too, right? Right. Yeah, that's right. And even though our emotions are tainted by sin, they're not inherently Well, yeah, they're not, they're not given to us. Uh in God. Josh is coming down to mountain already in this episode.

I just preached on this stuff at a youth summit. So it's like in my head. One of the things that I often think about is how music is invisible. Like you cannot see it. I mean, you can write the notes out, but it's something that's always been out there that we had to discover. But you don't discover it through the normal like, like observing.

You hear things and you think about them. Yeah, it's really fascinating how it does have an impact on your mood, all those kind of things, which is why it's no surprise that we would be singing in church, but if you've ever been in a situation where things aren't going great in your church. Um, attendance is low.

People are getting a little grumbly. Mumbly. One of the things that sometimes comes up is, if only we had a better you, you fill it in. Mm-hmm. Better kids' ministry, A better facility. One of the big ones is music. Mm-hmm. If we only have better music, have you guys heard that before? Absolutely. I was part of a church that split because.

We heard from leadership that we just need better music so that we can grow. And there was a great big schism between what better music was. Well, and you, yeah. You even think about when people are church shopping, right? They, they aren't, not always are they concerned about the doctrine and theology, but it's like the, the, the options that they have.

And if a small rural church that's 10 minutes away compared to a different church that's 30 minutes away. Has less to provide them, less for them to consume than, than they may not end up going there. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, we've objectively seen people go to different churches 'cause they have better music.

Right. So we know it's a thing. Better music, right? Yeah. And what we need to get into in a little bit is why better music in that your quotation marks better Music is not necessarily the thing we should be chasing. And whether or not we should do, try to improve our music or just go with a YouTube thing or, you know what we do.

So let's talk about that kind of range. So I was at a church, very sweet church, uh, in Waverly, New York this last Sunday, and we sang to a computer. So on the computer screen was the lyrics and they were projected onto the wall. And it was actually cool how they did it. I mean, if you have to do it this way, this would be ideal.

It was a music track with just a tiny little bit of background vocal to get you started. And it wasn't like, you know, the target was there any song leader, any that came up front? There was not. Um, and I think that's something that could be discussed, whether or not you should have somebody do something like that.

But they did have music from a YouTube versus like at our church in Wellsboro, where we've been blessed with a lot of musicians who want to use their gifts. So we have a full group up there every single week. Um, so, and there's in between there too, I was just recently at a church that. Played YouTube music, but then they also had people up front singing.

Hmm. So there's a bunch of different variations of music that you can talk about. Yeah, that's right. So why is it or should, should we argue that better music can save your rural church? I think it goes back to what we were talking about in the very beginning and all about the feels and the feelings. If people come and they enjoy the music, and I think enjoying worship is definitely an important thing, but.

If it's not as perfect or it's not exactly what they're looking for. They kind of, uh, they've got their, they've got everything kind of out of order. That's not necessarily the, the most important thing that we're looking for when it comes to church. Just the actual music part. There's much more important, there are many important things, I should say it that way, but how do you deal with the fact that people are kind of expecting good music?

You should do the best with what the Lord's provided you. Mm-hmm. Maybe even reframing what's the purpose of music interest? Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Why do we say that's a much better answer? Is it to, is it to have people perform in front of us and encourage us, or is the point of musicians on stage to lead?

What is the main instrument, which is the congregation's voice? Um, how do you know that, Josh? How do I know that? Uh, biblical theology. Okay. I don't know what, do any verses come to mind when you think about singing? Uh, Ephesians chapter five, I think it is right. We're not to be drunk with wine, but we're to be filled with the spirit and the natural overflow of being filled with the spirit is to encourage one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Notice it's not like being filled with the spirit so that the team up front can handle leading super loud worship music. The point of the music in the gathered congregation is to encourage one another. Um, yeah. So we have this gap, right? So we have the fact that we know theologically singing is for the encouragement one of another, but we know that people coming in have an expectation, right?

So how do you, and this is true in lots of areas in our rural churches, how do you get from expectation over here and practice over here? I was actually just thinking I was going in the same direction. But oftentimes it's almost easier as, as difficult as what it is, it's almost easier to think about changing their music than changing other things that might actually need to be changed.

Does that make sense? I'm talking about, tell us more. Well, like what we were talking about of. Even in the cold open, um, a biblical expository sermon or increasing the level of discipleship in your church or the number of saints who are equipped, I would say to all three of those things are at least as important, if not more important than the quality of worship music that goes there.

Yeah. And those are the things that really engage people beyond Sunday mornings, and it's, those are more than just about feelings, and those things are actually more difficult to change. Then just that momentary, uh, worship service music that you're gonna have for 15 to 20 minutes. Yeah. So there's a balance between doing the best you can with what you've got.

Yeah. I don't think any of us are saying that you, that poor worship experience is an okay thing. Okay. Yeah. So how do we deal with that then? Like a poor worship experience? Yeah. So let's say somebody listening right now, your church is. Struggling in that area. Maybe you even as a pastor or your kids or your wife is like, oof.

The music's just rough. I think you can tackle that for a couple different, a couple different ways. I don't think you that you should pretend that it's okay when maybe it's not, or you that I don't think that you should pretend that it's a strength when it might actually be a weakness. Okay. And you might say something from the front and actually with the people, if there's people that are working in the music ministry, hey, we are continuing to work on this to.

Get better for good theological reasons. Lay out that theological framework. Mm-hmm. Like what Josh was talking about, the reason behind what we're doing. And then make that it's not a secret. Right. So don't pretend that it's that it's wonderful. Maybe when it's not. Yeah. So in that case where you were talking about a church that played YouTube videos.

Uh, for their music. I think whether it's from the front, every once in a while you could say, Hey, this is where we're at right now, guys, and so we are gonna use this and we're gonna sing with gusto and worship full the way that we're able to right now. And then let's pray for musicians to come. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

I think often. We can connect the dots for people by teaching from the pulpit. Yeah, absolutely. What is we're doing? And that's another thing. So if you're in the habit of feeling like I shouldn't say much during the service, or you know, if you, you are listener, are in the position of being the service leader or recognizing that there isn't a service leader, and maybe we could do something there, just realize it's your responsibility to walk the congregation, like a tour guide through the things you're doing.

So when it comes to the singing. Let the word of God speak, and so you just kind of say, Hey, here's what the Bible teaches us about singing. So we're meant to sing for the encouragement of each other. I wish we had musicians. The Lord hasn't provided us musicians. This YouTube backing track is better than nothing, guys.

So let's just belt it out. And I would agree, I think it is healthy to have somebody stay up in the front and lead. I would think so. And that's, that's an uncomfortable thing, like mm-hmm. You know, if you're not used to doing that standing up front, especially if you have a lousy voice, right. It's a very uncomfortable thing.

But let the YouTube get 'em started. Mm-hmm. And you're standing there at least to like, both of you guys are vocalists and you, both of you can sing. I, I cannot, I'm not necessarily a vocalist, but there have been times when somebody has had to go up front. And I've had to sing, and so I don't sing more difficult songs there.

Mm-hmm. Right. You, you sing songs and that's a good general rule of thumb anyway, because a lot of people in your congregations aren't the best singers or aren't super gifted that way either. Yeah. So you sing more simple songs that people are able to sing well, yeah. That's that way, that's, that's huge.

That's a really good point you've made is. Not just randomly choosing stuff from the hymnal or not just choosing stuff that you know, oh, everyone will probably like this. Pick simple songs that actually match what you're trying to teach, right? And that that's another big way to redeem music is theming.

This, the hymns you're singing around the text that you're preaching from, or that will be preached from right on that day. That's another really important way to do it. One of the biggest things that I think we need to think about is your goal is not to attract people or to grow the church. So if you're starting with that premise, you know better kids min, better music, better whatever's gonna grow the church, you're actually off target from where you need to be anyway.

What would you guys say the actual goal is for us as leaders in the church? Faithfulness is the the goal and the target remaining faithful in your, in your theology of music stick with a, am I faithful am in doing this? Am I faithfully expositing the word when I'm preaching? And, uh, are we faithfully raising up our kids and encouraging our parents to raise them up in the fear and the admonition of the Lord?

It's not how many people that you can pack in there because you can. Yeah. What's the old saying is you, you, you, you keep them with what you catch them with, right? Mm-hmm. Actually, I had that backwards, but if music becomes the primary focal point or your kids' ministry becomes the primary, primary focal point, and that's how you get people in there.

They're just going to be expecting more and more of that. And when you start faithfully doing things. It's gonna be like the old switcheroo on them and they might not like it. Yeah, that's right. So here's the encouragement then I think as we kind of sum up what we've been talking about is you wanna make sure that you're shooting at the right target.

Shoot for faithfulness. Be faithful to the word, be faithful to God, and if you wanna double down on something, don't go out and figure out how to fix your music. Mm-hmm. Double down on your praying for the congregation. Double down on trying to mobilize your people who you have to go out and make Christ known.

You have a point that you made earlier, double down on your understanding of what music in church is for. Yeah, that's right. Double down on teaching that, teach it every week for however long. Um, and walk them through. You could have, um, substandard, uh, music, but you can have an excellent, uh, service leader there.

Some tell 'em, tell people a little bit more about that and how you might be able to. Elevate the entire service and the entire liturgy and through a service leader. Yeah, and we can maybe do a whole episode on service leading sometime, but just kind of briefly thinking of the service leader as the, um, tour guide.

So you're helping the congregation see what's important. So like the tour guide in the zoo would be like, okay guys, we're about to round this next corner, and the monkeys are the next exhibit. But they're sleeping right now because they just had their lunch. So look way back behind that tree and you're gonna see a whole troop of monkeys.

You like how I even knew the right term? Yeah. troop of monkeys. And they're gonna be sleeping back there. And I'll, I'll pause just so we can look at 'em for a little bit. And if you come back next time, they might be up and running around, you know, you're, you're helping the people get the most outta their tour, where if there's nobody saying that, everyone's just looking around like, well, it says there's monkeys, but I don't see any monkeys.

Where are the monkeys? And excuse me. Um, that kind of self-guided tour is not nearly as enjoyable as having a tour guide who can point out the things for you. So that's what you can do. And with music in particular, one of the things that you can do is take the lyrics of the song that you're singing and just read them and go, not like flat, you know, how long should it take?

Let me, let me save a couple pastors out there from a heart attack that they're having. Okay. Whose worship leaders talk way too long. Yeah. Between songs. Oh yeah. Right. Guilty. Yeah. I mean, you don't wanna take forever, but you're going to, and here's the deal. You might need to go from today, we're gonna sing two songs instead of four.

Yeah. Because you know that you wanna spend some time drilling down on this. Mm. But just be like, guys, verse one. Says these things. Here's a word that you might not know what it means. This is what it means. Um, verse two elevates it because it goes to this and, oh man, I just love how in verse three it gets to the fullness of the gospel.

And you start to see the beauty of those lyrics. And then when the people sing it, they're anticipating that they know what they mean. And then you could even be like, you know, don't raise your hands, but who here just had a really hard week? We are singing the song it is well today, not because of a tradition, but because we need that song in our souls for when we have a bad day.

Yep. We saw that at Equip. There was a brother who came to our local Quip gathering. Mm-hmm. Had a hardship in his family and we started singing together. It is. Well, and I looked over and he's just beginning to cry and soon he is weeping and then the whole group puts their arms around him and we're singing together.

It is. Well, even though he's been through this really hard thing. It's the kinda stuff that singing is for. So singing is not the way you grow your church at all. You can have zero talent and sound like a bunch of just clamoring symbols. Um, and do it with great joy for the worship of the Lord. When you understand what it's for, you teach what it's for, you just embrace that, that can be really sweet.

So you know what though? There's a little bit of trouble. I think there's a, oh no, an SOS, speaking of classic rock, sending out an SOS. Josh who sang that? Uh uh. I'm going to guess a ridiculous guess. Metallica. That is a ridiculous guess. That's false, but Queen, no. Two strikes, baby. I'm out. I I'm out with two.

I'm, who says it? I think I know. I think it's Sting in the police, wasn't it? I think you are correct. Of course. Correct. Yes, sting. Of course it would be staying. Yeah. And the police. Sure. Alright, so Josh, anyway, because you're so wise and gifted. Yeah. Tell us what this SOS is all about. Uh, well, the first test stands for subscribe.

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We'd appreciate it. Yes, sir. And since we've issued our standard SOS, you know what that means? It is now time for stuff. Girl pastors can yous reviews. That's right. And today we are reviewing something everybody loves unless. You have a Christian aversion to this thing, which, which is dumb. Well, but some of our dear sweet friends, I want to wanna punch you in the belly right now.

Blame for saying that. In fact, one of our elders opposes this very, and his wife drinks two cups in the morning. Yeah. And you've just given it away to me. It's all tension was released. Um, we of course are talking about coffee. Coffee drinkers. More than one cup a day. I'm on three today. Do you normally drink three?

My wife would prefer me to drink two. Okay. Recently with our son, I've been drinking three to four. Your son, he's too little to drink three to four cups? Uh, no, but my son is waking up. Oh. You can generally tell, you can generally tell when Josh has just had a cup of coffee. Yep. A little jittery. And you can tell when he needs one too.

Yeah. Um, Joe, how many do you normally drink? Uh, I drink about four half cups. And then I leave him or laying around the church, it's sometimes he needs to go warm them up. That is very true. Tricky. That is true, isn't it? Yeah. Yep, that's right. I'm a once in the morning, once in the afternoon guy typically, but once in a while I'll do three as well.

And the caffeine that I am loving lately is my stuff Rural Pastors can use review today. So this coffee is delish, it, it comes from a subscription service. Now, I typically don't like subscription services. For a lot of reasons. Uh, do you guys remember, you might not Josh 'cause you're a baby. You're a baby, but there was the Columbia House and BMG music services.

I do. Did you ever subscribe? I did and I had to call them weeping in tears to say That's right, you can't get out. Yeah, it's purgatory. It was awesome. 'cause you order one CD and you get 13 and then they send you one every month for like. 29.9 and you're hooked. Mm. The coffee subscription is nothing like that.

So Atlas Coffee Company, um, Josh will probably put the thing in the notes, actually. Indeed, we, maybe even Catherine will do that. So Sweet. Um, someday we'll tell you guys about Catherine, who's now behind the scenes helping us with all these things. Yep. So, um, you sign up and it's like if you get two bags, it's like eight bucks a bag, it's $16.

For two bags of coffee for however long that takes you to drink 'em. You can select medium, light, or dark roast, and then they have a different single origin that they come from every single time. So. You're getting your coffee in the mail. It's very fresh. You get to try a variety of different flavors. Um, you don't have to go to the store and get it.

It's awesome. So I, I like good coffee. You Joe. What do you drink? It does not matter. I get Folgers, Maxwell House, Leva. I did What's. I dunno. It's trash. It's fuel, baby. I don't know when the last time was I cleaned up my coffee urn. It's like all brown and black, but it makes good coffee, baby. The film. So tj, we recently upgraded our espresso machine.

Yeah. And I have not been able to find a roasted coffee that I can ground to get a good pull. Like I have literally made, I'm not kidding. To get a good pull, like, yeah, you have to pull a shot. Oh yeah. Of coffee. Joe's out. Anyway, I've literally 10 cups, five scoops, send it. Oh, I have tried. I have tried at least five different kinds, five different roasts, five different origins, and I've made probably 30 shots of coffee and I cannot figure it out.

I just don't need that stress in my mind. It's definitely user error. But I think, uh, I think doing something like this would give me. Yeah. You know, I think so. Some variability and, yep. So, so, and it's good. I'm, it's good in all forms. If you like a nice French press, you just grind it. Well, I'm on their website and it'll actually, they'll grind it for you.

Yeah. Depending on your use. Yeah. If you're a loser. So like a grind type is pretty cool. Mm. Yeah. Or you just get a grinder. Yeah. Yeah. You have a grinder. I have a grinder. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, you, when you get your own grinder, then you can. You can French press with a nice coarse grind. Hmm. You can run it through the espresso machine with a nice fine grind.

Mm-hmm. So you can dial it right in. It's even good as a drip coffee. But if you do get the whole bean, you can select your brew method and I bet you they'll roast it for you. That's pretty dope. Like I can say, I'm gonna normally use a drip machine. Yeah. And it'll tell me. Yeah. That's neat man. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

So another pastor friend of mine turned me onto it. Cameron Cowburn. Of course. Yeah. He likes the finer things. Indeed. Yes he does. He sure does. So this, once you go Atlas, you never go backless. That's what they say. So, hey. Anyway, I hope that you. That's a great review, tj. You give it a gear shot. Have a poll and honestly like for really good coffee, this is pretty inexpensive.

It's very inexpensive. It's very affordable. Yeah. We have a couple local roasters who I really appreciate their coffee, but this saves you quite a few bucks versus even going to the local roaster. Yep. No offense to the local roasters. Love 'em. We love you. Yeah, that's right. So, all right, well, the stuff rural pastors can use has been reviewed.

We've had a good episode talking about music. Yes. The encouragement I hope to all the rural pastors and rural church leaders listening is trust the Lord, be faithful. Um, understand music for its actual intended purpose and help your church use it that way. Do not buy into the lie that it can help your church grow.

That is not the point whatsoever. I do have a quote from the spurge. Spurge it. Mm. So this is not an argument for you to drop out all of your instruments. This is an your what? Instruments. Oh, okay. I heard some redneck in there. You know what I heard? Instruments, instruments, instruments get strength outta you.

Keep your banjos and your fiddles and your violins up here. That's right. Um, but this is pretty good. The human voice is so transcendentally superior to all that wind or string is can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping. That's awesome. I had to come lectures or something.

Yeah, yeah, that's I'm sure. Yeah. You know, to close out to that point, some of the most delightful moments I've experienced as a Christian are singing with the congregation and hearing nothing but their voices acapella. Yeah. Yep, that's right. So, hey, thanks for joining us on this episode, and we are going to see you next time.

Raise your Ebenezer. And thanks again. We truly appreciate you spending some time with us here on Royal Pastors Talk. We hope that this is a blessing as we think about the work that the Lord is doing in places most of the world thinks of as the middle of nowhere. Dear Christian, leader in a rural church, press on trust the Lord.

He's good, he's.