Are People in Rural Communities Having Abortions?

In this episode of Rural Pastors Talk, TJ Freeman interviews Bryce Asberg, director of a pregnancy resource center in Hillsdale, Michigan, about why the pro-life issue matters deeply for rural churches. 

Bryce shares his background, his “boring” Christian testimony, and how his long-standing pro-life convictions led him into pregnancy center work. Together they discuss how abortion is now present in every community through telemedicine and mailed abortion pills, making discipleship and clear, compassionate biblical teaching more urgent than ever. 

Bryce argues abortion is ultimately about God’s glory and authority as Creator, and he encourages pastors to strengthen local discipleship while partnering with pregnancy centers through prayer, people, and financial support. They also explore how centers can serve as “emergency room” ministries and wisely connect clients to the local church.

Contact Bryce to learn more at bryce@helpinghandsprc.org.

Transcript

Are People in Rural Communities Having Abortions?

If you're gonna care about the spread of God's glory, that means you have to care about image bearers. And I'm talking about image bearers at every stage of the game, even the very beginning, which is exactly what we're talking about on this episode of Rural Pastors Talk. Well, hello and thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Pastors Talk.

A podcast highlighting the advancement of Christ's kingdom in rural places just like the town you live in, the rural church is not the baby pool we splash around in before moving on to bigger opportunities. It's not the place we're confined until we take off those training wheels, and it is not God's penalty box as a punishment for breaking the rules.

No, Jesus died for his people and as long as Christ's people live in rural places. A vibrant, healthy, multiplying presence of his church will be there too. Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman and I am one of the hosts of Rural Pastors Talk. I'm also a rural pastor and the executive director of the Brainerd Institute for Rural Ministry.

Glad to have you along today, and today's a special opportunity for us to hear from a treasured guest. Named Bryce Asberg. Bryce is a, uh, Hillsdale College graduate, a Hillsdale Michigan resident, and the director of a pregnancy resource resource center right there in his community. And so without further ado, let me introduce you to our special guest.

Well I have our special guest, Bryce, here with us. And Bryce, before we dive in, could you just tell us a little bit about kind of who you are, your background, what brings us together on a day like today?

Excellent. Yes, I would love to. Uh, my name is Bryce Asberg and I live in Hillsdale, Michigan, the great state of Michigan with my wife and two kids. Uh, Michigan is a hand, you know, we have to do that. And I live almost where my mole is. And so the Lord and his sovereignty Acts 17 appointing times and places for all people.

Right. Uh, predestined me to live near my mole. 

Nice. Now for those of uh, uh, uh, those who are listening to audio only. Help them envision where the mole 

falls. Oh, okay. Thank you, tj. Yeah, that's right, that's right. I forgot how vast the audience will be. 

Oh 

yes. So vast. Yeah. 

Um, so we're South Central Michigan, so we're the only county that borders Ohio and Indiana.

So we're just right, right in the middle, right in the very bottom of the state. Uh, originally I'm from Washington State, Tacoma, Washington, and so suburban Pacific Northwest is pretty different than rural Midwest. But I came here initially, uh, for college and then the Lord has directed us and we're here now and it's, so, it's been our home for the last, oh man, my home for the last eight years.

And it's been a joy to be here. So I direct the Pregnancy Resource Center, uh, and then we're of course involved in our church and the Lord's given us various other fruitful work to be doing. Um, but that, is that what you're looking for? Does that count? 

It is. I want to hear more about lots of the things that you just said, but, uh, tell us how did you come to Christ?

Ah, yes. Well, you know, by God's grace, I grew up in a Christian home and, and really can't pinpoint a time for you when, when I didn't believe in God. And I am blessed to have a nondramatic story in that way, that certainly there have been seasons of growth and, and many, many different means that the Lord has used to strengthen my walk with him.

And yet there has never been, uh, a time when it was clear to me that I wasn't walking with the Lord. 

Mm. 

So I'm grateful for that and, and grateful to have the kind of story that I pray that my children get to have as well. 

I'm curious, when were you baptized? 

Yeah, great question. Uh, probably I, and I I was about 13.

Okay. I, I was somewhere in that range. Yeah. Yeah. 

Did, did your church require you to give your testimony? 

Uh, not as part of the baptism. Right, okay. And so not publicly before the congregation. Right. So there were meetings with the pastors and that certainly. Would've been a component of it, but it was not something that was written out and shared.

That's, that's a practice that my current church has. Okay. It can be such a sweet thing. Just such a, everyone loves baptisms and that's one of the, the reasons just to be so grateful and to hear the profession of faith, but then also the story of the Lord's working in the lives of our brothers and sisters is awesome.

Yeah, man. Absolutely. The reason I ask that is because you mentioned having kinda like the, the dull testimony or uneventful testimony, and I've actually heard from a number of Christian kids, Hey, I feel weird getting up and telling the church my testimony because I don't really have any like, major thing that I can see.

Yeah. Visibly, like the drug addiction or whatever. Right, 

right, 

right. That I'm turning from so they feel like there's this boring, 

right. 

What, what, how would you counsel somebody who felt that way? 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I, and I even think my perspective has changed on that since being a parent because I, I look at my kids and I.

Oh, that's what I want for them. Amen. And, and we rejoice for every story of the Lord's working in someone's life. Right? That's 

right. 

But, but that's, that has helped me to look and just recognize, oh yeah, like this is exactly what I want for, for Malachi and Oakley, that that would be their story. Yeah. And so that's increased my gratitude for that because I, amen.

I mean, I think most of us who have, for whom that's their story can probably resonate with that. At least maybe, I don't know, maybe it's just our Christian subculture. Maybe it's something in the sinful flesh, maybe whatever exactly it is. But I certainly can sympathize with that kind of feeling. Um, and I would just say it is a great cause for rejoicing.

Right. Amen. 

That's 

right. It's something we should give praise to the Lord for. 

Yeah, I pray for lots more boring testimonies. 

Amen. Yeah. Amen. And I think, oh, you know, maybe I shouldn't complain about the answers to my parents' prayers. 

That's right. That's what it's.

That's totally what it is. That's right.

Yeah. Okay. One more thing I wanna ask you about before we kind of dive into why we have you here. Um, you mentioned that you're in Hillsdale, Michigan. That's right. And that you went there for college, which leads one to believe you probably went to Hillsdale College. Is that accurate? 

That is correct, yes.

Alright. Tell us just a little bit about why you wanted to go there and what you, why that was a benefit. 

Right. Well, you know, I, I've learned that it's a little bit like, like the old vegan joke, right? How do you know if someone went to Hillsdale? Don't worry. They'll tell you. So there is a, there is a little bit of a sense of, um, superiority sometimes that can creep in.

And we, we always have to be on guard about that. Um, especially recently, you know, the profile of the school has gone up a lot. You know, the short story is I applied to 10 schools and I got into three and two were affordable, and Hillsdale was the better of the two. 

Great. 

Um, I, since learned, if you're applying to Ivy Leagues, you shouldn't write about abortion in your application.

So that's just a free piece of advice for any, uh, college seeking listeners to this, which I'm sure there will be thousands. 

Oh, yes. 

Um, but you know, I, I had a buddy who was at Hillsdale and he, he was always going, you gotta come, you gotta come, you gotta come a friend from Bible closing. And I said, fine.

Eventually I relented, there's an admissions rep 20 minutes from my house in Washington doing interviews, and I thought, you know, I have no excuse not to. So the last week of February of my senior year, so I applied basically on the deadline. I visited the school for the first time, and I committed on the deadline day, I think whenever that was.

Sure. But, you know, as, as I visited the school. I just, I really appreciated, like, it was really clear to me that I would be in many rooms where I wasn't the smartest person, like just obvious. And I thought, this is gonna be a really good thing for me. Like, I'm gonna learn so much more if I'm in an environment where there's just a ton of people of really high caliber, really serious about their faith, serious about their studies, like that's gonna be the kind of environment that I, I want to put myself in.

Whereas I was looking at a couple smaller schools and, um, it just, there wasn't necessarily the same seriousness. I remember one school I visited and they said, oh yeah, this is the library and uh, it is, no one studies here. It's way too loud. Right? It's great sign. You, you right. You kind of get the sense of like, Hmm, I'm not sure that that's the place I want to go pay to study at.

Right. That's right. Um, and, and Hillsdale was not like that and just got a sense for like, there's a, a strong Christian community on campus. This is really a place where there's gonna be a lot of opportunities to grow in my faith. Uh, and I'm gonna really be challenged by, by the things that I learned and the classes and you know, all of this kind of stuff.

And, and I, you know, I found that to be true. I was really, really grateful for the education I was able to receive. Huge blessing. 

All right, so there are likely some rural pastors listening since this is Rural Pastors talk. Okay. Yeah. Um, though we are probably gonna cross post this on back to Rurality as well.

So there could just be some random Christian people in the middle of nowhere listening. 

I love random Christians. 

Me too. Especially the ones that live in the middle of nowhere. 

That's right. Our favorites, tj. 

Yeah, that's right. So if you were speaking to a pastor or a parent that is considering where their kids are, kids in their youth group, whatever might end up gonna school, what's the one plug for Hillsdale that might push 'em over the edge?

Oh, you know, I, I don't even wanna, I don't know if I even wanna give a plug necessarily. And I guess I would just say like, I think every campus you go to is gonna have different temptations and different pressures in various ways. Mm-hmm. And I would say you should know your kid and you should know the pressures they'll face at, at whatever campus they might choose.

Um, and so I, I don't even know necessarily that every student should go to Hillsdale or whatever, like, I, that, that, I mean, Lord, give wisdom there, right? 

That's right. 

But I, I would say that, you know what I already said, there's a lot of serious people, a lot of opportunities to grow in your faith. Some really wonderful churches in the community.

Um, and that, and that's, that's awesome. And so if those are, if those are things you're worried Hillsdale doesn't have, they do have them. 

I just wanna say you played that very well, so good job. Thank you. Yep. I appreciate it. Thank you. Um, alright. So we brought you here today to talk about an issue that is important to all of us as believers, or at least it should be very important to us.

And that is life. So why would you be qualified to talk about life? 

Well, I, in some ways that's a question for you because you put me on your podcast to talk about it. That's right, tj. 

Yeah, that's right. 

Um, so the Lord has given me a burden for the issue of abortion that, um, I, there's not a clear human answer for, for why that would be the case.

Um, but just from the moment I, I hear, I heard about it, which is in the context of a presidential election and asked my parents, why do we vote a certain way? Um, and they explained to me what abortion was. Whoa. What did, that's crazy. That's terrible. 

Mm. 

Uh, I remember sitting in the car before you group starting one day and I was like, mom, I'm gonna end abortion someday.

And she was like, okay, yeah, sure. Whatever, you know? 

Wow. 

Have fun. 

Um, how old were you?

 I dunno, I was probably 16 or something. 

Okay. Wow. 

I, I don't know. 

Yeah. 

Who knows? But I caution know. So by the time I was in, you know, like seventh grade, it was a pretty established area of concern for me. Um, and then in high school I started a pro-life club my freshman year.

Side note, really quick way to get popular at a public high school. Just show up and start a pro-life club freshman. 

Yeah, that's right. Same way you get into Ivy Leagues. 

Yeah, exactly. People love me everywhere I went. Amazing. Awesome. Um, but that, and then, you know, we almost ended up suing our school district over some discrimination and, um, there's a picture of me on Google Images that when you save it, the automatic title is abortion Kid.

Um, 

wow. 

And once you're on the front page of your local paper as the abortion kid, it's like there's no going back, you know? Yeah, that's right. Your calling been confirmed. You might as well just own it. 

Just own it. That's right. 

That it, all of this is to say it was a strange series of events that was not anything I planned out, but I believe was the calling the Lord's given me.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, so I've been involved in these issues for, you know, 14 years with some level of activity and I, I've interned for a number of different pro-life organizations and then I've been directing our pregnancy resource center for the last four and a half years. Um, and that has been, it, it's been a wonderful thing and I'm guessing that's probably why I'm on this podcast.

That is all right. And I'm glad you answered the question and not me. 'cause I did not know half of that. I did not know you were the abortion kid. Yeah. Um, yep. I knew that you were working at the Pregnancy Resource Center and I'm super encouraged by a conversation that we had. So now I'll give my side of the story.

Okay. 

Um, recently you and I had a conversation about, um, just kind of rurality in general. Sure. And thinking about small places and God's glory there. And we connected after you were on a, you heard another podcast, right. Um, by a superior podcaster named Sean de Mars. Room for Nuance. That's right. Yeah.

That's great. And, uh, reached out just to say, Hey, if I could ever serve your audience at a, in any way, I would love the opportunity to do that. And I was like, man, this definitely would be a great opportunity for us to talk to some rural guys about a topic that we know is important to us. But I think in rural spaces, we're not often sure how to think about it.

Um, so I'm gonna put you in the hot seat just a little bit and say, um, in small towns, which, how big is Hillsdale? 

So the city is, I believe, 7,000, and then the county is 44,000. 

So some people are gonna laugh that you said city and then said the number 7,000. So 

Oh, really? Okay. 

Yes. 

Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. 

I guess so. 

On this, on this show. 

We have stoplights.

That's right. Yep. On this show you have to give your rural cred. So you would say Our little community of 7,000 people. Yeah. There you go. Um, we have a, it's funny because we have a city. Not far down the road from us that has like 30,000 people and you know what they call themselves? 

Mm-hmm. 

A a small town.

Yeah. And, and then people come from like Philadelphia and they're like, this is the smallest little podunk redneck town I've ever seen. And to us we're like, we're not going there. 'cause that's the big city. That's where all the dangerous stuff happens with 30,000 people. So anyway, I'm just, for the sake of our audiences, I'm saying you have good rural street cred there.

In Hillsdale. 

In, in, in my defense, you know, under, under Michigan statute, Hillsdale is a city. Right. Understand there's different, understand to incorporate a municipality legally, the city, we have a city council and a mayor. Right. And everyone's required to serve on it before they die. Kidding? 

Yeah. That's awesome.

Great. So, um, you there in a, in a smaller place, a place that's probably easy to overlook. Have gotten involved with providing resources to people who I assume are on a range of like very happy to be pregnant, to very shocked and surprised, uh, and not sure what to do going forward. How have you seen the need for something like the ministry you you're involved with in a smaller place?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. Um, you know, in some ways, TJ, it is becoming more and more obvious as the abortion pill is primarily dispensed through telemedicine, right? Mm-hmm. And that's, that's an unfortunate reality that today, every, every drug store can be an abortion center, right? And, and every mailbox can be as well.

I mean, in Hillsdale right now, you could go onto the Detroit Planned Parenthood website and have an asynchronous chat where you would, you would text and you would say, I'm looking for the abortion pills. And later someone would text back and say, oh, how far along are you? And as long as you say less than 11 weeks.

Those pills can be in your mailbox before the week is up. Wow. Um, and so it doesn't really matter if you have an abortion facility in your community or not. You do. Right. It, it's everywhere. Mm. And, and that just really drives it home in a way that there is no way to sidewalk counsel when the abortion pills are being shipped to someone's mailbox.

And it, it just drives home the need that was always there that. Like, we have to be discipling people, right? We have to be making disciples everywhere because you, you can't outcompete, like, you can't be more convenient than the abortion industry is in that way. You have to you like, we need people to love the truth, to love the Lord, and to want to do the right thing, even when it's hard.

Mm-hmm. 

And that's one thing to recognize is, you know, 20 years ago, I mean, even, even when I started this role four and a half years ago, it's a lot easier to say, oh, there is no Planned Parenthood in Hillsdale. There is no abortion facility in Hillsdale and there's never been there. But that's just not the case anymore.

Right? Every mailbox, every drug store can be an abortion facility because of the way our country has gone in, in those regulations. So that's the first thing we have to recognize on this, is it's in our communities more than you ever recognize, and they don't even have to leave our towns to access abortion.

Yeah. Which I, I love the point you're making that this issue was always there. It just wasn't as visible. Maybe because. Um, you, you didn't have the Planned Parenthood facility that you could go protest in front of, um, which I think made a lot of Christians feel like, because I don't see it in my town, I don't have as much responsibility.

Uh, so what's your argument then to get people to respond to the fact that this is showing up now in the mail? Uh, in other words, what are some ways that you would encourage Christians to take a stand against the abortion industry in general, but particularly to serve their community through the that stand?

Right. Yeah. Um, I mean, that's a huge, that's a huge question. And we're, when I'm an optimist by nature. Okay. But any, I don't think you can look with clear eyes at the abortion issue in the last four years and not be discouraged. With the exception of the Dobbs decision, which was a huge gift from God. You know, Kevin, go see Kevin De Young's article about blowing up the Death Star with the Dobbs decision.

It was a perfect analogy. It's just beautiful, right? Yeah. Clearly the war isn't over when the death star's gone. You know, there's two more Star Wars episodes after that. Only two. That's true. Only two more. 

You know, my confession is I've never seen Star Wars. Okay. I know. Yeah. I feel a little embarrassed to admit that to you.

'cause you know, you clearly are using it as a good illustration. I know what the Death Star is. 

Okay. 

I've heard the Imperial March, is that the right word for the music? Okay, so, but there could be a hundred movies after it and I would not have known that. So 

Well, we'll leave that there tj, that that's low hanging fruit, but SelfControl and we'll move on from that.

But the analogy holds, and I get your point saying like. 

The analogy holds. So, 

yeah, 

where I'm trying to go somewhere and usually I distract myself, but you're helping me. So thank you. 

Sorry brother. Keep it going. 

No, you're good. So it's rough. Like we are, we are getting our behinds handed to us, right? It's brutal out there.

We're losing ground everywhere on the life issue. And I, and I don't say that to discourage, but I think we have to be realistic, which is the fact that our culture is increasingly, one that idolize itself to such an extent, is willing to kill, to get what it wants, right? And I think that those seats have been there for a long time, but it's even accelerated over the last four or five years.

And we have to be real about that fact. And so there's a limit to what we're going to be able to do legislatively and politically in the short term. Uh, I mean, we even see a, a white house that is resistant to just simple pro-life reforms that they could do administratively at the drop of a hat. They don't need legislation to do, including rolling back the, the telemedicine permissions for the abortion pill that could be done easily.

And there's just a lack of will to do that. And and why is that? It's because there's a lack of popular support, right? I mean, we really, we can't be expecting our politicians to be going out a on a limb on the life issue. Christians, yes. Should be willing to take bold stance, but generally politicians are only gonna go so far.

Right. And, and they're reading the room and they know that there is not popular support for pro-life provisions. Um, and I don't say that to discourage, just to be realistic. When you see across the board in the state of Florida, I believe it's a full 25% of voters voted for Trump and for abortion. Hmm.

They voted for Donald Trump, for president, and for abortion. 

Wow. 

And that is mind boggling, right? Mm-hmm. And we only, we only held that vote 'cause we kept them to what, 57% or something. And they needed a 60% threshold to enshrine abortion in the state constitution. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so. All of that is to say like, it's really rough out there.

And I, I do think the church is in a season where we need to look first at are we even maintaining gospel faithfulness within our own communities, right? Do, do our people know how to answer the hard cases? Do our people know how to think through issues biblically to respond to them in a way that's truthful, that's clear and compassionate.

And are people catechized and discipled well enough to understand that you can't be compassionate without being clear and that these things are traveling companions, right? Mm-hmm. And so I, I guess I would say that's a, that's ground zero starting point. And, and there's been some concerning polling suggesting that among church going Christians, we're losing significant ground too.

And so I, you know, and not that that's a sufficient strategy to change everything, but it's gotta be the starting point is, are the people who are already attending church in our midst, like, are they being clearly taught how the scriptures inform this conversation and what a biblical perspective is and why it matters so much.

Hopefully we have the chance to talk about that a little later too. Why it matters so much, because we need to do that. And if we can start there, I mean, there'll be more opportunities, there's more work to be done, but nothing else is gonna be possible if, if the body of Christ doesn't understand. Right.

And isn't able to speak with clarity and compassion on these topics. 

Mm-hmm. Well, now's as good a time as ever. So why don't we just back into that a little bit and let me pitch that ball to you. Why would you say it matters so much? Sure, 

sure. Um, you know, I think John Piper's really helpful here.

Abortion is about God, and really there's a huge, the division in our world today. I guess there's other ways you could divide it up, but are we the creators of the universe and the creators of our destiny? Mm. Or are we receiving the world that God has made? Right. Are we, are we in the, the posture of recipients of God's gift to us in life, in the world, in, in the life that we get to live in every good gift that he gives to us, or are we the creators of it?

Mm. It's truly a Romans one style rebellion where, where we see that man and his sinful unrighteousness suppresses the truth about God. And what does he do? He worships and ex. Creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. He exchanged the truth about God for a lie. He directs his worship to birds and animals and creeping things, and we see in the issue of abortion that a.

We are taking the creator's prerogative and trying to claim it even though we're his creature. And so you see that a, a woman and a mother is given the power of life. She has the ability to create life and to take it away because is there a life there or not? That is solely determined by the woman's Fiat.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She is given the power to create life in our society's eyes, and, and we are taking the power that God rightfully has and claiming it, it, it is ultimately an act of idolatry. It is a key act of rebellion against the world that God has made in the limits that he has put in place, and a heart attitude that worships God for who he is and gives him the glory as the creator of everything.

That heart attitude will reject abortion because it, it recognizes that God is the one who creates life. This life has value because it is made in the image of God, and I don't have the power to declare this child will live or die or to recognize that this child is even a life or not. And that, you know, I mean that, that's the absurdity of it, right?

It's like, uh, if you lose a desired pregnancy, it's a tragedy. Yet to be able to end an undesired pregnancy is a human right? Mm. Where does that come from? That is a fundamental exaltation of the creature over the creator. It's an act of idolatry. It is an idolatrous expression of rebellion against God.

And you see abortion all throughout Romans one, because it's an expression of idolatry. It's a, you know, it's a, it's a result of idolatry and, and it's a manifestation of it. You know, it's a, it's an after effect of it too, because we read there that, that, that idolatry ends in devastation and death and destruction and murder.

And so, so murder is comes about because we are suppressing the truth about God for a lie. And, and then the result of it is death. Right. And the result of it is murder. And so it's, it's there, right? It, it's there. It's all over the place in Romans one. 

So if you were to say to somebody that asked you the question, what's really at stake here?

I'm hearing a lot of good things that you're commenting on idolatry. Um, the things that idolatry leads to, but just to boil it down to like lowest common denominator, what's really at stake when we talk about the life issue? 

Right? God's glory. God's glory, God's reputation, God's authority. Is God the creator or not?

Mm-hmm. Right? And, and do we have a posture towards him of, of grateful re reception or, or idolatrous rebellion? Uh, it, it's about God and obviously there's human rights implications all over the place, right? A downstream of that. And I, and I wouldn't want to downplay those. Those are significant, but at the core of it, it's a question about God and his authority and, and as always happens when we rebel against that death and destruction and injustice follows.

Yeah. One thing we talk about at our church a lot is it's not primarily the defenselessness of the child. It is the glory of God first. And of course, the defenselessness of the child matters significantly. We have to stand up for people who are in a place where they cannot stand up for themselves. Um, but there's just one tier higher which says God made that human in his image for his glory.

I mean, that is God's representative right there. And, uh, when God's representative's in a vulnerable place like that, then we, it's like double obligation, I think, to stand up and do something about it. 

Right. And I think it's clear also, I mean, it is another way to cut through this lie that abortion is not something that the church engages on, right?

Mm-hmm. 

And I think you have a whole bunch of arguments for it, but you boil it down to the greatest commandments, to love the Lord, your God, and to love your neighbor. And both of those are at stake on the issue of abortion. Are you loving God and giving him the worship that he deserves? And are you loving your neighbor as yourself?

And it's like, wow, this issue strikes right at the core of that. That's right. And, and how can you disciple your people to honor the Greatest Commandments if on this key issue that's thrown in our face all the time and the, you know, the image of God is just trampled on at a scale that's almost unmatched in human history.

Like, how are we truly discipling our people to be faithful to all that God commands if we're missing this absolutely essential application of the Greatest Commandments? 

So help us out for those of us who are kinda like back in the hollers of rural area where no one would even ever dare let us call our little towns a city.

Um, not even in Michigan, right? Yeah. Right. 

Yeah. 

So help us out to think through what's some action we can take. I mean, we're not gonna go to everybody's mailbox and start, you know, violating federal law and sifting through the mail. Um, some, some people would say, you know, the only way to fight this is by standing on the street corners.

Others would say, no, we gotta be in the church praying. I mean, there's a whole host of things we should be doing, but how would you encourage us in rural places to actually stand up and fight? 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. Uh, and it is, I mean, I remember having a conversation with, with my pastor. Yeah. We would, you know, we would be out there if there was a Planned Parenthood in our community.

Right. We would be organizing prayer rallies and maintaining a presence and all. And, and it's not. So what do you do? Right. I, you know, I sympathize with that and certainly, I, I would never discourage prayer. In fact, I would encourage prayer. That's an essential starting point. Um, and I, I do think just in the rhythms of our church, you know, I, I don't want churches becoming little abortion political action committees or something.

Right. But like we talked about, it's about loving God and loving your neighbor. Mm-hmm. And people need to know that. And there needs to be outlets in our communities for Christians to understand how to think even, even into the complexities of this issue beyond just a, a boilerplate sanctity of life announcement.

You know, are there adult education opportunities? Are, are those brought up? Does it begin at, you know, are there opportunities in our Christian schools or in our youth groups where these issues can be introduced and thought through? Right? Is there guidance for parents and talking about, so, and, and I know we talked about that a little bit already, and that's not really the thing you're driving at, but just, just to underscore like this is an appropriate way for the church to be equipping her people, well, the Lord's people to do that.

Um, and then pregnancy resource centers are key here, uh, because it is an expression of the church where many different churches have come together and have said they're gonna hopefully be a healthy parachurch ministry where we're strengthening the ministry of the church providing specialized care in a specific area, not trying to detract people away from that.

Um, but. That likely your community has something like that. That's established already. Typically, they are faith-based and have a pro-life commitment. Um, and that would be a place to start because here's a gospel, hopefully a gospel focused outreach into your community that's trying to meet these people.

And I would just encourage you, you could think like if you're coming at it and say, okay, well if I gave, supposedly if I gave a hundred dollars over here, I could save a life from abortion. I think there's reason to be skeptical of some ads that are, say things like that. That's another conversation though, but.

It's not even just about that because I believe the Lord has called us to love our neighbors. And so, you know, I say all the time, like it is so much more expensive to reach an abortion minded woman in Hillsdale. And, and I own that. Like, if, if you were in an urban area, you could, you could reach women who are thinking about abortion for a fraction of what we spend here in Hillsdale.

And so how can I justify it, right? If you're, if you're a utilitarian or an effective altruist, you probably can't justify it. And yet justify it on the fact that the Lord has placed us here. He has called us to love our neighbors. And there is nobody else in the world who is fighting for the lives of those neighbors.

There is nobody else who is trying to intercede for them. And that's the privilege that we get to have in our communities, is to be there for them. And so find your local pregnancy center and, and invest in that ministry, right, to encourage 'em to greater faithfulness and integrity in the gospel. Uh, that, you know, that you could serve and come alongside families who are struggling and, and strengthen men as well.

Uh, these are great things and, and they're great things to send your people to. You know, I, I always tell centers we have to reframe the way that we think about volunteering because volunteering is not me asking you for something. Hmm. Because the Lord has called his people to do good works. In fact, God has already prepared in advance the good works that his people are going to do.

Ephesians two 10 says, and he and Paul emphasizes there were God's handiwork. There's a personalness that God has prepared work for us to do. And so this idea of approaching vocation, that is one of discovery, not invention. And, and with that in mind, there are people in our churches. God has wired to minister to men and women in these situations, to walk alongside families, to be there and intervene for the life in the womb, but also to urge the women and men to greater faithfulness.

And so what I'm doing if I go to a pastor and say, we have this volunteer opportunity, is I'm saying, is there someone in your church that we can serve by letting them do what God has made them to do? Yeah. And anyone who has ever done what God has called them to do, knows that feeling where you're not pressured into something, you're not obligated into something, but you rejoice to do the good works that God has prepared for you.

And that's what I want. You know, I, I often pray we have a weekly prayer meeting and I often pray and I say, Lord, don't let anyone give to us out of compulsion or guilt. Yeah. Right. And because I don't even care as much about these numbers, like the Lord is gonna take care of that. I want people who give because they love what's happening here and they rejoice to get to be part of the work that God is doing.

And it's the same way with volunteers. And if you've been around long enough, you probably know that you can pressure someone into starting volunteering, but it usually doesn't turn out very well. 

That's right. 

And And that's not what we want. Right? We want people who are serving the Lord ultimately not us, and that's the foundation that they're going to need to persevere when things are hard anyway.

And so I have no idea how this relates to the question that you asked me, but I'm just rambling off on a branch here to say that there's a great opportunity to minister and it's not. A good pregnancy center is not gonna come to a church and say, we need this from you. Right? 

Mm-hmm. '

cause that, that, I don't ever want that to be my attitude toward the bride of Christ.

I don't ever want that to be my attitude toward the local church that Christ has established as, as primary in the life of believers. Um, in fact, we need to justify our existence as a parachurch ministry in terms of the local church and not the other way around. This is pastor's talk, so I have to say something like that. 

Everybody just said Amen to that.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Uh, which, but there's a good question that flows out of that, which is how do you see the relationship between a pregnancy resource center and the church being healthiest? 

Yeah, great. Um, someone is gonna have a better answer for me than me, and they should email me because this is hard.

Like it, I in, in, on paper, it's easy, but like the maybe, but the handoff is challenging where, you know, like the ideal textbook scenario is we provide specialized care for churches. You know, maybe there's someone in the congregation who needs, who needs help that we can benefit from and be a blessing, you know, and I, I come in and I might sometimes preach at a church or teach on some issues that are within our wheelhouse because pastors will have something to say, but they may not have the time to devote to the complexities like I might or someone else in a similar role, you know?

So those are ways we can help. And then the ideal is someone comes in, they hear the gospel, they become a believer, you know, we walk with them for a little while and we hand 'em off to a gospel preaching church and, and they invest and benefit in that ministry. Um. And of course the hard part is sometimes people don't wanna do that, right?

And sometimes people wanna keep coming and maybe they're not Christians, or maybe they are and you're, or maybe you're not sure. Uh, and they just wanna keep coming to your pregnancy center, uh, and meeting with their mentor every week. Um, and that's a challenge, right? That's a hard thing. 'cause you don't wanna, you don't wanna just push people out the door or something like that, but you also don't want to become a replacement for the church and people's lives.

And so I, I wouldn't say that we figured it out. I would say it's something we're actively praying about, is trying to think through what are ways that, you know, someone, maybe they've come for a year and maybe it's time to start slowing the pace of their meetings. Or maybe there's an alumni. Bible study that meets once a month instead of a weekly appointment.

But, and we're doing this intentionally to say, we've been so glad to walk along with you, but we are not the solution for all of your discipleship needs in your life. Right? God's already provided for that. That's the great news God has already provided for that. But, but we can't fill that need in your life.

And so I think starting there as a, as a pregnancy center, to just be clear, right, like a, you know, a good campus ministry would say. What are we doing here? How are we serving the church, and at what point does someone not need us anymore? Mm-hmm. And that should actually be a, a good thing. Right? You know, I think in John one, you, I love the example of John the Baptist because he has disciples.

And that's interesting because that shows he hasn't been passive, he's been busy, he's been cultivating his influence, and people are listening to him now. And then what happens? As soon as Jesus shows up on the scene, he says, behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. Um, and his disciples don't listen to him.

They don't get it. 'cause the next day he sees Jesus and he still has disciples. And he says, behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. And then they leave him and they go, follow Jesus. 

Mm. 

And and that's the model of Christian leadership and service that actually says, I want to minister to others.

And if they listen to me, not ultimately, but if they listen to me, okay, but what's the point of them listening to me? That they would start listening to Jesus, right. That they would see him. And if they leave me to go follow him. Praise the Lord. That's right. And, and there's something similar in a pregnancy center where the ideal would be, okay, what if the Lord gives us this chance?

It's, it can be a wonderful outreach ministry, a chance to witness and to walk alongside these women and men. And then we can point 'em and say, God has provided for you in the church. Right. And, and we were so grateful to get to walk with you. This isn't the end of our relationship with you, but it does need to change because we are not everything that you need in your life.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, and so I, how do you act? Put that into action. Uh, Lord, give, give us wisdom. You know, that's something we're actively trying to figure out. If there's anything we're doing that's not helpful, if there's any way we could be more helpful, how to put those things into place. Um, and it does become tricky when you know it.

It's easier if someone is clearly a believer and it, okay, you, you need to be fully investing in your church and we're holding you back. But if someone isn't and you're not sure, and they're just. Not do anything then, like do you, you know, all of those are questions that if any of your listeners have great ideas, they're welcome to, uh, shoot me an email or text or something and, and, uh, fill me in.

But that, that's a broad outline. If that's what you're looking for. 

Great. That's helpful. And we'll give your contact information at the end. It'll be on the screen and all that stuff, but. 

That's good. 

Um, um, so the point you're making is that God has more in store than just saving a life. Sure. Um, he's uniting his people with the body of Christ to keep on doing all those good works that you referenced earlier, that he prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And because you made the connection to God's glory and God's glory is made visible mostly, or primarily through the church, you can see the essence of the, the, or the necessity of saying, we've gotta move these people in that direction. But you're also wise to say, Hey, we're still figuring out the best way to do that.

So that's on that end, what's, what's the initial relationship look like? How do people find you? How do they get plugged in to start with? What are they looking for? 

Like, how do clients find us? 

Yeah, yeah. 

Um, yeah, so in in rural areas, it's primarily word of mouth, still is the main driver of, of client visits.

Um, you know, I, you, I, I take your beautiful synopsis that you just gave there, TJ, to be a polite way of saying you rambled on for a long time, Bryce. 

Not at all. Not at all. 

No. I'm very happy to hear all that. I did ramble on for a while, but. Beautifully. I, I think I need, I, I don't think I can answer your question yet, tj, I think I need to go back a little bit.

Sure, go ahead. So I, I just want to give a really quick overview of some important changes in the pregnancy center world that I think might be helpful for your listeners. So, when pregnancy centers started, it was hard to get a pregnancy test. 

Hmm. 

You, you might have needed an appointment. Wow. At a doctor's office to do that.

Um, you know, we used to kill rabbits for pregnancy tests. Did you know this? I have no idea. No. Yeah. I believe the last rabbit test was in the sixties. But they would take a woman's urine and they would inject it into a rabbit's ovaries, and then they would give it, I believe, two days and then they would skin the rabbit.

And if it's ovaries had enlarged you were pregnant. Wow. Because they're ht. Um, we don't come a long way, baby. Yeah, yeah. And so anyway, it was hard to get a pregnancy test. And so the initial model for a pregnancy center was show up in the community and provide free pregnancy tests. And that was a need that everyone needed, whatever they were thinking about abortion or any of that.

Mm-hmm. And so you could do several hundred pregnancy tests a year, even in a very small community because everyone needed a pregnancy test, whatever they were thinking. And they might as well come and see you. 

Sure. 

That's not the case anymore. Right. And, and so the addition of ultrasound has been absolutely essential because it, it basically makes a case for us for why an abortion minded or vulnerable woman should even visit a pregnancy center in the first place.

Mm-hmm. 

Because otherwise it's like, what? I already know that I'm pregnant, I don't need a pregnancy test. And so we can say, you know, the abortion industry may not offer this to you, but you should confirm that you are still pregnant, that you haven't had a miscarriage to estimate your gestational age, how far along you are, and to rule out an ectopic pregnancy.

Mm-hmm. All of those things being important for a wo for a woman's health, even apart from the interest of the child. 

Sure. 

Um, and so that, you know, that gives us an argument, but that also changes things because before it, it was a scattershot approach, right? Like you could do several hundred pregnancy tests, you'd serve all kinds of people, and along the way you'd find women who were considering abortion.

Um, and everyone's pregnancy test numbers are down quite a bit because people don't need pregnancy tests, you know, and to the extent you do them, it's just in conjunction with the ultrasound service that you provide typically, uh, broad brush strokes, right? But generally. 

Yep. 

And so that leaves us in a situation then where we have to intentionally go out and advertise for, you know, like lots of online advertising for abortion related search terms or this kind of thing.

Um, especially since women are looking for abortion online and they're getting it without ever going to a physical facility, is that makes the online presence absolutely key. And so, why do I bring this up? I bring this up because now pregnancy centers don't do all that many pregnancy tests compared to what they used to do.

Um, and so you've seen an, an addition of parenting services. Uh, so like we do one-on-one parent mentoring, a big expansion in ministry to dads, fatherhood programs, whatever that might look like. You know, give away all kinds of diapers and baby items, and none of those things weren't there before. But proportionally, I think on average there's probably more of that than there was before.

And so just a, a grid I propose for how to think about this is the difference between e an emergency room, emergency room medicine, and lifestyle medicine. 

Hmm. 

And so an emergency room, every community needs a good emergency room. And, and that's what pregnancy centers were set up to be, was an emergency room for that woman in the moment of crisis, who's deciding if her baby will live or die or not, what she's gonna do.

And, and pregnancy centers absolutely have to meet that need. They have to meet that need. Why? Because nobody else will. That's why pregnancy centers were started. And if we don't do that, nothing else will happen. Yeah. And, and, and the lifestyle medicine component, you know, th this might be education, uh, you know, like a, an abstinence educator, sexual risk avoidance, education, you know, parent mentoring, trying to strengthen the family and, and help families out of dangerous situations or situations where they might be more likely to consider abortion.

And all those things are wonderful and can be very pleasing to the Lord. And yet in a sense, they're less essential to the pregnancy center identity because it's not directly why we were started. And there's obviously other key players in that field, right? Like there, there's a key role for the church and there may be other agencies that are meeting that need as well, or trying to help parents parent well and love their kids.

And so I just bring that up to say that the emergency room need is key for a pregnancy center. And even in a rural community, it can be confusing because that's not the main reason people visit your center. 

Mm-hmm. 

That if you're in a small town or a small county, that will never drive your client numbers because there aren't enough women getting abortion for it to drive your client numbers.

And that's not a bad thing, and that's not something to be ashamed of. And ultimately we would be fine if we didn't serve any abortion minded women as long as it meant there weren't any in our communities. 

Yeah. 

Um, and so I, I just bring that up to say on the emergency room side, typically those are driven through online advertising and through paid ads that.

Really, I mean, in a rural area, it is a needle in a haystack. Mm-hmm. Because there may only be one or two women at a given moment considering abortion. Um, and so how do you reach those women? A billboard's not as helpful. That's right. You really need to be on their phones when they're typing it in. Mm-hmm.

Um, and, and so that's, that's that. But then on, you know, on the lifestyle medicine as I've talked about it, um, that's word of mouth primarily, and agency referrals and, you know, community partners sending you people in churches. And, and that factors into to the, the pregnancy services as well. But I, I just bring that up to say, you know, in, in my conviction, I know others have other ways of understanding it, but the way I think about it is that emergency room need is first.

Like, we've got to be meeting that because that's why we are started. That's why so many give and just as a matter of integrity, we have to be the one stewarding that emergency room need. And as it makes sense in our context and as the Lord provides and allows us to, I think this lifestyle medicine can be pleasing to the Lord and can reinforce that service like it does in, in rural context where mm-hmm.

Where you need word of mouth, right? And you need people there. There's great overlap in the communities that you serve. And you're not gonna fill your, your client's schedule with women considering abortion 'cause there aren't that many. And so then you get to figure out how these things mesh together and to be proactive in ministering to all your neighbors.

And that's an awesome privilege. Right? But then we also, you know, if I was in Ann Arbor, if I was in Detroit. My center would look very different, you know? 

Yeah. 

We might fill our schedule with emergency room visits. Mm-hmm. And I'm not gonna look at them and say, oh, well we're better than you 'cause we do more fatherhood education, or whatever it might be.

Sure. You know, it's like we, we adapt to our communities. So emergency room visits, online advertising, especially broad brush strokes, um, and lifestyle medicine, word of mouth and referrals. 

Do you have any thoughts about places where there is not an active center? Have you been out? I mean, is is that a common issue in rural spaces that they wouldn't have easy access to a center?

Yeah. Um, I mean the, the more rural you get, the more likely that is, that is to happen. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and typically in that situation though, you, you often have a center that is intentionally serving multiple counties. And so that would be more common. Like it would be rare that someone would be multiple hours from a pregnancy center.

Okay. 

Um. I, I'm, I'm sure there's places like that, right? But, but most of the time there's going to be a center that at least is cognizant of your community, even if they don't have physical roots there. And I, I think there may be opportunities even there to say, is there a way that we could minister it?

You know, is there a satellite office that we could do? Could we loan some space from our church? Is there something we could figure out to enhance the ministry in this community specifically? Yeah. Um, I mean, yeah. So that's, I guess that's, that. 

That's good. That's helpful. I just learned recently, and I, I should have known this, I just didn't, there's a neighboring county that doesn't have any presence of a resource center at all, and some of the other counties have tried to have a mind toward them.

But we have to drive pretty far to go county to county. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, like our center in our county is trying to get something going over in the neighboring county, which I think is mm-hmm. Hugely important. But it kind of underscores the need to see healthy churches in all of these places, because more Christians who are thinking about these things carefully and understand the need to see God's glory spread mm-hmm.

Will carry an emphasis much like this with them wherever they go. That's right. And not just in this area, but all kinds of areas where God's holiness is at stake. 

That's right. And, and I, I mean, I think that's absolutely key, right? That you can't, you can't manufacture an organization like, like a pregnancy center, you know what I mean?

You can't drop it into the middle of nowhere and have it work, you know? Mm-hmm. It relies on the support of Christians. It relies on strong churches that are there. It's, I mean, it is just one piece of the puzzle. And I, I do think you're absolutely right that planting strong churches or participating in revitalizing is, is absolutely essential and it is worth doing first.

'cause even if you could start a center somewhere, it would be, uh, it would flounder without, without the church. 

So that gives you, the ball teed up very nicely to speak to the rural pastors who may be able to serve a resource center in their area. What's a way that you would encourage them specifically to try to help that resource center thrive?

For all the reasons we've talked about. 

Yeah. Great. Um, so, I mean, know who's involved, right? If they haven't already reached out to you, hopefully they have. Uh, but if they haven't already asked for coffee with the director or you know, with a keyboard member, start with the director, um, and get to know them and hear their heart for the ministry.

And I think that will be a great indicator for you of what partnership might look like and what opportunities will be, will be in front of you for that. Um, and I think one of the best ways that you can influence is by people, right? Hmm. Like, you know, we need, we need good people investing in the work.

And so to, to think through. Are there, is there a role for you? That's actually how I got hired and started down this as my, one of my pastors was serving on the board and then connected me to a need. And here I am. 

Yeah. But, you know, which is great shepherding. 

Yes. Yes. And that can be an awesome thing.

Like it comes down to it's not guilt, it's not laying up burdens on people who are already busy. It, it's none of that. It is, it is stewarding the people God has given you. It is equipping them. It is launching them into the works that God has prepared for them. Um, and so figure out what opportunities there are, where people you have can, can meet needs that are over there.

Not just asking you to do more, of course, but I, you know, personnel is an absolutely huge one. Is there a role for board members? Is there a need for, what kinds of volunteers does that look like? So yeah, meet with the director is what I would say to start, and then I mean, yeah, financial partnership.

If, if this is a great, if this is a strong organization that you can joyfully invest in, um, to partner with financially is great. Centers love monthly donors, so we can count on that money coming in. Um, sending people is a huge one because I think that's a way for you to strengthen a ministry from within, um, and then to pray.

And we, you know, we have a weekly prayer meeting at, at our pregnancy center here, and that's a great opportunity for people to come in and, and bring the needs of the ministry before the Lord together. And so I would say certainly that, um, but the, I mean, the biggest thing is like. At least me. I don't, I don't want the churches to go around serving the pregnancy centers.

Like, what I need is, I need the church to do what churches are supposed to do. That's what I want. Because when I look out at my community, like the lens doesn't revolve around our, our organization, I mean. 

Mm-hmm. 

We're, we're called to do a specific work in a specific mission within that. Absolutely. And yet it's not about how do we make the center stronger.

Um, obviously in some sense I'm thinking about that as a leader, but that's not the ultimate sense. Sure. And so I would, you know, I, I want the church to be the church and to do the things it needs to do and equip people and then send them our way. Right. And, and cultivate a biblical way of viewing the world.

Um, and that will be a blessing when we're serving clients in the future who are maybe thinking about abortion and, and they've grown up in a church where they've heard the word preached faithfully. Uh, that makes that conversation a lot easier to have than, than if that isn't the case. And so there's lots of things we've talked about.

You know, at the, on the shorthand, it's money, people, prayers. Those are the three things that I rely on. Right? I need money, I need people, I need prayer. And everyone can do at least one of those things, right? That's right. And so that, that's the boiled down version. And yet I wouldn't wanna lose sight of like, we need the church to be the church at the core of it, because again, pregnancy centers are, we're low on the totem pole.

Like we're very downstream culturally, we, especially in that emergency room kind of thing, like often a lot of decisions have already been made and a lot of cultural influences have been brought to bear, and there's now sometimes a crisis decision that needs to be made. And, and that's, you don't introduce typically whole worldview change in that crisis moment, right?

Sure. And so I guess I just say like, when churches are upstream doing their job and discipling their people, um, that's really what I want from the church at, at the bottom of it. 

Yeah. That's great. Um, so I, I'm thinking of the guys who are in a church where like they're really struggling to keep the doors, doors open at all.

Um, yeah, they have a leadership crisis. They have people who maybe aren't wanting them to preach faithful sermons 'cause they'd rather hear something else. Um, they're, I mean, just a whole host of struggles in rural places. I don't think you're saying, you know, don't worry about trying to help out a resource center until you can figure out all that stuff.

Sure. Sure. So how do we, how do we encourage the guy who's going like, all right, I'm listening to this episode and now I just feel more guilty 'cause there's more stuff I know I should be doing that I realize I'm not doing. 

Hmm. 

How would you encourage that brother to help maybe theologically try to move the needle on this conversation within his congregation?

Um, to stay faithful, moving toward a healthier direction? 

Hmm. 

That I, that was a big question. Did I ask it in a way that made sense? 

Uh, I'm gonna say no to buy myself More time to think. 

Yeah, there you go. 

I did understand that. That's a hard one. But, but gimme another run at it, tj. I think I, I'll answer somehow.

Alright. I'm gonna try to ask it better. I'm trying to get better at this. I ask long, complicated questions. 

Okay. We can't all be Shonda Mars. 

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, so you're, you're in a rural church, you're struggling for a thousand different reasons. Yeah. Because the church is not healthy.

You want the church to be healthy. You also, now, because we've had Bryce on the show. Are going, okay, I also need to help my church think better about the life issue. What's like something that this guy can do that's going to help move in that direction without, you know, being dishonest about where he is actually at in the process of trying to shepherd this flock.

Yeah. Um, are, are we addressing here the concern, especially that the congregation doesn't want to hear how to think biblically on the life issue? Is that 

Well, no, I'm, I think that could be the case, but like in a lot of rural towns 

Yeah. 

The, when you, the more you get into the word, the less interested the congregation becomes.

I'm stereotyping, but I've just talked to a number of rural pastors. Who have said, my people aren't hungry for the word. I'm just trying to get to that level at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I, what I guess I'm saying is I heard you say in one sense we're kind of downstream or lower on the totem pole.

Sure. 

And I don't want that to come across to anybody is you don't have responsibility in this area. At the same time, I don't want them to feel like we're saying, Hey, here's one more heavy weight to all the burdens you already have. 

Right. Right. 

And I might be asking a question that there's no real good answer to.

Sure, sure. Okay. Uh, Lord, give wisdom. So it's a big question. Um, and there's a lot there. And I, I do think that there's a, a prudence decision there. There's a prudence factor of how much can we reasonably take on here? Right. You can, you know, like I had a mentor tell me truck drive straight or under a heavy load.

Mm. 

Um, and that's a great saying for a young man, but obviously there's also amount of weight where the truck just doesn't drive. Right. 

That's right. 

It's just great. Yeah. And so there is, you know, there both of these things are true. Um, but it's, you know, it's also true that sometimes in, in the Lord's economy, it is not a zero sum game.

And I, I guess the real question is, what does faithfulness look like here in this context? Yes. Being a wise steward of our resources Yes. Recognizing the limitations that we have, and yet if it really becomes clear that the Lord is opening a door and is calling you to step through it, um, then, then there can't be any fear there.

And, and even in my short years here at the center or other ministry efforts I've been involved with, I, I see that. Like, God doesn't bring all the people before you do it. Mm-hmm. That's, there's, there's a, there's a stepping out in faith almost as the lepers are healed as they go. Like the Lord provides as you go and you say, we're starting this fatherhood class, and, and God brings the people as you're doing it.

Mm-hmm. You're like, I hope this works. Yeah. I don't know that it will. Um, and, and there is something that, you know, when, when I first started at the center, we had our hours had reduced, it was COVID. Um, we were short shorthanded, and, and things had been real, really pretty rough. And for whatever reason, I don't know why I knew this, I think the Lord might have just made it clear to me that we, first thing we needed to do was expand our hours again.

We'd had reduce summer hours. And it was like, you just have to do it. And, and I didn't sit around and think like, okay, do we have how, you know, like I didn't have the perfect mapping out of it. It was just really clear this had to happen. And so at the first staff meeting, it wasn't, can we do this? You know, it was just.

We're doing this, guys write down what hours you're available and we're gonna figure this out. Mm-hmm. And, and he provided for that to happen. But that's just an instance where, and, and maybe even in my flesh, I really think the Lord protected me on that one would've been, okay, wait, play it safe. You're just here.

Things are hard. You're not sure how it's going to work. And yet I, I think that was absolutely key in creating momentum that we needed to be able to move forward. And so all of that, you know, this is very generalized 'cause I don't know someone's specific circumstance, but a general principle is, you know, the Lord is gonna provide for the work that he wants to get done.

And so if there's an opportunity here for faithfulness, then. It's not a zero sum game. And I, I just think that's so true that, you know, as our ministry gets stronger, other ministries get stronger too. Mm, mm-hmm. And I see that. And if you send someone and they volunteer at a pregnancy center, and Lord willing, they're gonna be stronger when they come out of that too.

That's good. And so we do have to break out of that. And, you know, I don't, again, lots of hardships, lots of problems. There are challenges that could be facing a pastor in this situation. And so I don't wanna, you know, talk down to it or say like, I've got an easy answer. 

No. 

But a general principle is, yeah, the Lord's calling he's going to provide and he typically doesn't provide before that's, he provides during and just in the nick of time.

And it, and it may be that a challenging step of faith. Faithful obedience, maybe what he needs to actually turn the tide of momentum in the church. And so if, if he's calling and it and you believe that, then then step forward in faith, I guess is what I would say. 

It's good. Uh, you answered that very well.

I think that was a home run because the reason I asked the question is because often the feedback we get, particularly on rural pastors talk is, Hey brother, I am trying really hard and sometimes when I listen, I feel like now I just have more stuff I did not even know I wasn't doing good that you're telling me about or exposing me to.

That's, and so I, I don't want that burden to be there, but at the same time, I don't wanna lift it enough to say like, Hey, you get a pass because things are tough. Or you're doing this and you threaded that needle very well. Mm-hmm. And what you described, I think is something that I've been thinking a lot about is just, you gotta be scrappy.

You know, you, you just have to get in there and figure it out and trust the Lord and not have it all figured out. But do your best to be faithful. And, uh, you gotta be a little scrappy along the way to make that work. And that's not just in rural places. I think that's everywhere. Sure. But sometimes we think of ourselves a little differently in rural places because no one's necessarily speaking to that particular issue.

So I think I just appreciate that answer. Hmm. It's good. 

Yeah, it is. I mean, we do have to be scrappy. I remember when I looked up and I was like, wow, there are 20 lawyers in my county. Hmm. And for some that probably seems like a lot, but just growing up in, in Washington state, I thought lawyers grew on trees.

You know, I thought, you know, like, you want a lawyer, you could just find a lawyer. Sure. And there may not even be a lawyer in your county who has those convictions or has, so, you know, you're like, oh, you need a lawyer on your board. Good luck. 

Yeah. 

You know, for sure that poor one, that poor handful of Christian attorneys who are called to serve on every organization the board.

But no kidding. 

You know, that's just to say, yeah, that there is a need for that scrappiness. But I love, you know, the Lord has really grown my heart for this community and, and we are so grateful to be able to be here raising our family here. And there's so many things we love about it. But one of the things that I think is so exciting, and, and I hope that there's some encouragement in here too, is that the Lord has given us an opportunity to minister.

In a community where we can see the results. If I was in a city like it, I wouldn't know. I mean, I could know at an individual level, but it, you can invest your life in a community and of a scale where you can see when the Lord is answering your prayers and when, when he is really changing hearts and transforming lives by the power of his word, that's like, that's an awesome opportunity.

And you know, that excites me to know and TJ to think we can see, like we can watch what God is doing and it is possible to see a church and to see a community transform by the gospel and, and you can actually like watch it happen. And that, that's such a cool thing. Mm-hmm. You know, I always, when I talk with rural centers.

I have, I have a talk I do because we face the same kinds of discouragement and we, you know, we have these pregnancy center conferences, and I remember going and thinking, well, that sounds great. If I had an HR person Sure. You know, that sounds great. If I had someone who could do that. And that exact kind of feeling where you're like, okay, yeah.

Here are all these things that I'm not gonna do. Mm-hmm. Glad to know that we could be sued for that too, or whatever it might be. Right, 

right. 

And so I, I do sympathize with the heart of that, with the heart of that pastor. 

Mm-hmm. 

And, and you don't wanna give an excuse like, yeah, okay, you are a small town.

You should still respect client confidentiality. You should take it really seriously, you know, this kind of a thing. 

Yeah. 

But I, I just say what we have to do is we have to accept our constraints and we have to play to our strengths. There's a jumping spider on my computer monitor. Oh, horrified. I, 

I hope it doesn't jump.

Uh, 

uh, it's jumping between my monitors, but hopefully not on me. Oh, man. If I streak, you'll edit that out, right? So there. 

We'll see, we'll see. 

Depends on how high pitch. 

That's exactly right. 

Good. So it's gonna crawl across to my camera screen here in a second. You'll be anyway. Oh, man. Um, except your constraints and play to your strengths.

And, and that's absolutely key, because there could be a temptation to grumble and to, ah, you know, we don't have this, there aren't, there aren't rich people in our community. We don't have that. We don't, you know, there's no CPA who's gonna serve on our board. There's no, all of these things. And they may all be true.

But we cannot grumble. And the, the key reason we cannot grumble is because the Lord has placed us here. I talked about Acts 17 earlier, and the fact that the Lord is sovereign and he appoints people and times and nations and languages. Hmm. And so if we believe that God has placed us here, we cannot complain.

We cannot grumble because to do that would be to complain against God and to say that we've got a better plan than him. There's a reason God hates. Grumbling and opposes the proud and it, and it's because it's rejecting his sovereignty and saying that we know better and we have a better plan. And so we have to figure out a way to read the playing field.

Realistically, there are things you're never gonna be able to do. Right. There are staff positions you'll never be able to have. There's all, you know, all of these things are true and it does no one good to, to, to close our eyes and pretend otherwise. Right? That's right. Accept our constraints without grumbling.

But then the second step is we have to look around and we have to say what are the opportunities God has given us? Right. There are real opportunities in rural areas. There are doors that are open to us in the pregnancy center world and I'm sure for churches as well that are closed for everyone else.

Mm-hmm. You know, I talked to a center in, in an urban area and they said, I can't believe you guys get the same number of court referred clients as we do. And our population is 20 times as large. Wow. 'cause we can cultivate relationship and meet needs in a desert. Where others can't, you know, it's like if you go plant where our church is working on planting now in a, a pretty remote part of our county, it's like, when was the last time something opened in these towns?

Mm-hmm. 

And if the church shows up, like people will notice, I really think people will say, wow, I, we thought everyone had forgotten about us, but that's right. But maybe God hasn't, if these crazy Christians haven't, right. There are doors that are open to us and so we have to stop grumbling so that we stop dishonoring the Lord, but then we can move into playing to our strengths because there are doors that are open that we have to take advantage of.

And, and this grumbling, Satan's gonna try to keep us there in that discouragement. And it's not that it's not hard, and it's not that there aren't real limitations to our ministries because there are, but we have to stop grumbling so that we can do the work God has prepared for us to do and play to the strengths he's given us.

Hmm. That's good brother. I want to join you and just preach that, uh, this is so encouraging and so helpful and it's to come back full circle. This is all about the glory of God. He created this whole planet for the display of his glory, and we can do it in a place. Very few people are looking, um, with results that very few people get to see, not because we've done something well, but because there's just so many fewer people and you can actually watch it unfolding right before you.

Um, and it's, it's a delight. So, um, before I get to two final questions, probably the most question, important questions you've been asking your entire life. Are they Yeah. 

How many holes does this straw?

No, I don't have that nonsense. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I have real actual good questions. Okay, gotcha. Alright, so the, um, best way to get ahold of you and like one or two reasons why people might want to.

So let me give one of those reasons. I'll let you give the other one. Um, I think people might want to get ahold of you because they are from a center in a rural place and they have some questions or because they're a pastor in a rural place and they just want to know, Hey, I don't have anything go really going on here in this area.

How can I get something going? Mm-hmm. They may have questions related to those things. You, however, know some of the things that you've experienced, walkthrough, learned, grown in. Why might you encourage somebody to reach out to you? What kind of things do you know or have you done that they may be blessed by?

Ah, okay. Um, interesting question. So why would someone get ahold of me? Um, well, I've got a great pork rub and I love to smoke meat. 

There you go. Alright, I'll take it. 

So that you know, that's another reason. Yeah. Um, no, you know, I, I do want to be careful here because I am, I'm 27 years old, I'm pretty sure That's right.

And so there's a lot of life left to be lived, right? Mm-hmm. And so, especially as if a, if there's a pregnancy center or someone, I, I would want it to be a peer relationship in the sense that we're, we're figuring these things out. And I do wanna be careful of, I've got lots of opinions and I like to talk.

Um, but I, I don't wanna be presenting myself as an expert here in a way that I'm not. Right. Sure. So, but just that caution there. Um, I, I mean, I don't know if there's any way I can encourage someone. I'm happy to, if there's a, anyone connected with the pregnancy center, I'm always happy to talk and love to hear what you guys are doing and is working well for your community.

Uh, I your, your reasons were good, tj. I don't have anything better than that. 

So I'll give, I'll give you one better. You mentioned some talks that you have, so if they wanted to have you come share a little bit, is that something you'd be willing to do or consider? 

Yeah, possibly. Right? Sure. Um, I mean, I, I'm, I talk, I do like to talk.

Yes. 

Okay. 

There you go. Um, so I, if, if I, I'd be happy to explore that, right? Um, I. 

In addition.

 I talk about, yeah, abortion, um. 

No, sorry. I was gonna say in addition, um, you have thought through this matter. Not only from a theological standpoint, from, but from a strategic standpoint. And you may be able to help others think through, um, the three things that you mentioned earlier, prayer, money and people, and coming up with ways that they can talk about that from their center.

I mean, there could just be a number of those things that I think might be, 

you can be my agent, tj. This is good. Like you're, you're selling me a lot better than I am. 

I know. I, I tried to let you do it yourself, but 

I know and I failed. 

Yeah, that's okay. No, you did great. 

Yeah. I mean, I, I'm happy to, I'm happy to talk about any of that.

Cool. You did, you did very good. Thank you, tj. That was helpful. I hope, I'm glad this is recorded so I can put that in my LinkedIn bio or something. 

Yeah, yeah, please do. Um, and I, brother, I am hoping lots and lots and lots of people watch this for the sake of hearing everything that you've talked about today, but in particular.

I think that piece of getting down to this is about the glory of God and therefore we have a responsibility to engage on this level, um, because of who we are fundamentally as Christians. So, super helpful. Here's my two really important questions. Yeah. This, you will be measured for the rest of your life by your answer to these two questions.

Alright. Number one, I'm gonna give you what I think is a softball, but don't be embarrassed if you trip over it because better men than you have. All right? Okay. Um, alright. What is your favorite hymn? 

Oh, yeah, I was just asked this question yesterday by one of my students. 

Wow. Okay. 

Um, I, I don't, my wife will tell you I don't do favorites.

Like, as soon as you say favorite, I just get tripped up, you know, it's like I understand, how do I choose? Mm-hmm. And so I will, one of my favorite. Lines from a hymn. Right now my son is two and a half. He loves crowning with many crowns. Okay? That's one of his favorite. It's a dentist's favorite hymn, right?

Um, but just, just this verse, right? Crown him, the Lord of life who triumphed, or the grave who rose victorious in the strife. For those he came to say His glory is now he thing who died and grows on high. Who died eternal life to bring and lives that death may die. 

Amen. 

That is one of the greatest lines ever, right?

Yeah. Who died eternal to bring and lives that death may die. That's like, that's the kind of stuff we just have to inject straight into our veins, right? 

Amen, brother. 

Yeah, that's awesome when you hear that and you just. It's wonderful. So I, I do love that hymn, but especially that the last part of that, I think it's the third verse.

Maybe it depends on your hymnal. Sure. But that's awesome. 

Yeah. That's great. Let me encourage the listener, if you picked up on that passion, that's the kind of passion that as we introduce songs, we should have, when we help our congregation sing, you know, to stand and say, turn to number 327 and we're gonna just sing this together.

And then you kinda all mumble through it. You can go right over that line. And familiarity makes it seem unimportant. Uh, but that kind of passion that says, no, let me think about this carefully. This isn't just a hymn for dentists. This is a hymn for all Christians, and we need to sing this with passion.

And then when they get to that line, having heard you just reference it, it's gonna mean more to them. Um, so I would just encourage the rural pastor listening take the opportunity to just express it like that. That's a big part of why I ask this question of everyone. Mm-hmm. Now the second question is actually much harder and, um, more soul oriented, so it will reveal everything I need to know about you.

Okay. What is, and it's your favorite, so don't gimme any nonsense about not liking it. Tell me your favorites. All right. What is your favorite ice cream? 

Oh, I can't tell you. I have two. So we, there's this ice cream place here. Okay. It's called the Utter Side. It's in Jonesville. The, uh, I call it a suburb of Hillsdale.

Technically it's a separate city. Okay. They get mad about that because there's 6,000 people and we're 7,000. 

Nice. 

Yeah. But it was on one side of the street, the highway, and then it moved to the other side, and they named it the other side. 

The other side, yeah. 

Um, and they, my wife and I went there on our first date and we got, I got.

I got coconutty and she got Michigan pothole. And those to this day are still our two favorite flavors. Wow. But Michigan pothole does edge in front. 

Okay. What's in it? 

So, okay. Yeah. So Michigan pothole is a chocolate, it, it's almost a dark chocolate with, um, like fudge tracks. Not just like gooey fudge, almost like cookie crumble fudge.

Okay. 

And then like peanut butter cups, but they're just chocolate all the way through. There's no peanut butter in. Yeah. Nice. So it's just a chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. And you get it in a waffle cone. And if you're ever driving through Jonesville, Michigan, a kid scoop in a waffle cone is the same amount of ice cream as a single scoop in a cup, and it's 25 cents cheaper.

And, and you get a waffle cone. 

That's awesome. 

A kid scoop of Michigan pothole in a waffle cone, and my whole family shares it. Oh. And then we can go twice as often because we share. 

That's great. You had me. 

So that's way more detailed than you wanted. 

No, no, that's exactly what I wanted. You had me on your side.

Until you told me you share it with your family. That's crazy. How do you, what do you get? Like two bites? 

It's a lot. It's a lot. I'll send you a picture. Okay. It's a lot of ice cream. It's a lot of ice cream. It's not like it's really a good place. 

There's no quantity that I would ever think was shareable with the rest of my family.

So. 

Now that's the difference between you and I, tj. 

Yes, it is. That is what separates the men from the boys. 

Only big deal here. 

Yes, it's, yes it is. All right. Um, Bryce, this has been a wonderful conversation, brother. I am so thankful for your time and I hope we get to have more conversations in the future.

And uh, maybe I'll be in Hillsdale someday. Maybe you'll be in Wellsboro someday, but I'd love to be able to connect face to face. 

Sounds great. 

We could share ice cream. 

Uh, maybe, uh, we might need two scoops. 

We would definitely need two scoops. So, um, alright brother, well God bless you and, uh, thank you for, oh, you know what, I was gonna give you a chance just to mention how can people get ahold of you.

Sure, sure. Great. Um, so they can email me, Bryce. Which email do I want to give? Uh, Bryce at, uh, helping Hands, plural. PRC Paul robert charlie.org. That's, that's, uh, our pregnancy center there, Bryce at B-R-Y-C-E. Bryce at Helping Hands, PRC paul robert charlie.org. Okay. I'm also on LinkedIn. Pretty big following there.

Um, Facebook, um, really all over the web. 

Great. Awesome, brother. Well, again, thanks for your time and God bless. Hope you have a good rest of your day. 

Thanks tj. You as well. 

We'll see ya.

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