Adopting an older child is a big transition for everyone involved and poses a unique set of challenges. Learn more about things to consider when adopting an older child as host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national foster care & adoption education and support nonprofit, interviews Celeste Snodgrass, MSW, LCSW, and Director of Clinical Services at Holt International and Danielle Kaiser who has a master’s degree in clinical mental health counseling and is a behavioral therapist and Foster Family & Adoptions Social Worker with Vista Del Mar Child and Family Services.
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Adopting an older child is a big transition for everyone involved and poses a unique set of challenges. Learn more about things to consider when adopting an older child as host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national foster care & adoption education and support nonprofit, interviews Celeste Snodgrass, MSW, LCSW, and Director of Clinical Services at Holt International and Danielle Kaiser who has a master’s degree in clinical mental health counseling and is a behavioral therapist and Foster Family & Adoptions Social Worker with Vista Del Mar Child and Family Services.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Oh,
Speaker 2:welcome to creating a family talk about adoption and foster care. Now as some of you smart listeners have figured out, we are making some changes here at creating a family, uh, with the podcast. Oh, we are so excited about that. We are making changes a little gradually. We I promise are going to have a big reveal, uh, pretty soon. In fact that we are, um, we're rolling out the changes one at a time. I know some of you have picked up on that and uh, I uh, feel free to shoot us an email and let us know at would be great. In fact, you can send an email to info@creatingafamily.org and I will get it and so will the rest of our staff. So anyway, let us know what you think. Uh, but uh, we're really excited about it and, and pretty sure, but we've actually passed our 500 show, but we're going to be doing a big celebration for five hundreds and we're rolling out a bunch of new things then. But you'll just have to wait cause I'm not exactly sure when we're going to be rolling it out. So today we're going to be talking about adopting older children. This is a topic near and dear to my heart and it's actually a, it's increasing and adoption now. So it is something that I think all of us who care about adoption are paying a lot more attention to.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:We're going to be talking today with Celeste Snodgrass. She is a Ms. Dot. W as well as a licensed clinical social worker and the director of clinical services at Holt International. She's worked with children and families for over 20 years and is trained and trust based relational intervention, otherwise known as TPRI and she is a mom by both birth and the adoption of an almost 10 year old from Thailand and 2017 so she's going to be able to talk to us both from a personal and a professional level. We also have Danielle Kaiser. She has a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling and is a behavioral therapist. She is a foster family and adoption social worker with Vista del Mar child. And family services. Welcome so much Danielle and Celeste to creating a family. Thank you for having us. Okay. I think it does help for us to figure out what we mean by older child adoption. I mean does that include a six month old, does that include a two year old? Does that include a five year old? Um, our, our, our, we only restricting this to children above the age of 10. What exactly do we mean? And I think it's important to note that, uh, to begin with by saying that the two avenues most people use to adopt older kids in the u s is, uh, through the u s foster care system or through international adoption. Now there's some variations there cause sometimes people are adopting a child through kinship and the child's actually wasn't in foster care. But nonetheless, some of those issues are kind of the same. So I wonder if older is, if it were talking, uh, what the definition of older might be. Just a different, if we're talking about Oster or if we're talking about international. Danielle, do you have some thoughts on that? Yeah, I think
Speaker 3:depends on the Kiddo. But for sure, older child to me would be, I mean probably over older than seven or eight. I think the younger the Kiddo is, um, kind of sometimes the easier the transition can be. So it also depends on where the kid and also the parents. So one parent might think an older child is older than 10 and another might think an older child is four. So I think it depends on your perspective and also where the kid is that. But I would say for sure over the age of seven for me,
Speaker 2:Celeste, is that differ do you think buy in terms of what people think of with international adoption? Okay.
Speaker 4:So in international adoption we consider any child that is really a toddler or older to be in the older child grouping.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, so for international we have a, and it's, it's not that there's, it's really just kind of how we define it. It's not that the issues are different distinctly, but the, it's really kind of how we define it that way. Another difference that I've noted between adopting an older child through foster care and adopting internationally is the presence of a translation transition period. Um, and, and usually and foster care adoptions here in the u s a best practice anyway would be that there is a transition period where the child gets to know the family, the adoptive family, uh, usually starting off with a a weekend or I've just a night and then a day and then an overnight and then gradually increasing. Uh, how common is that Danielle, and, and what are some of the advantages of having your transition?
Speaker 3:So yeah, that is very common for the kids who are, who have been in foster care for a long enough that they're essentially ready to be adopted. So those kids, um, have usually been in a foster home or many and they are ready to for permanency. So in those cases, we do see our families first get matched with the kid, so they get to hear about their background and kind of make sure that it seems like a good fit. And then they meet the kid with an along with a social worker or two and they do a few day visits over time. And then when things start to feel a little more comfortable, they'll do, you know, a Ho, you know, maybe an overnight and that can last up to it depends on the kid and how ready they are. It could be a couple months, it could be six months. Um, and that's kind of the advantage is allowing the kid to kind of let us know when they're ready to actually move in. And so yeah, that happens all the time. As long as the kid is ready to be, to have a permanent home. If it's a newly detain child who is older, then that's not going to happen cause they're going to have to go through the whole foster care system first.
Speaker 2:And, and I, I have heard of cases where for various reasons that the place where the child is staying, the foster or the group home, there's a reason that they need to move the child quicker. And so the social workers, not necessarily by choice but by because of necessity have moved the children shorten the transition period. Yes. But yeah, but that's more the exception than the rule. Um, and, and most of the time we're trying to avoid that. Celeste, how are, how does that differ with international adoption
Speaker 4:significantly? I do wish that, you know, that we had the luxury of time so that transition could look more like what Danielle was describing. Um, it really does differ by country for international adoption. Uh, some countries you just, how the handoff and immediately and other countries you are able to do visits with the child, uh, for a couple days and before taking custody. And then other countries you have multiple trips. So you're able to meet the child, spend time with the child and with, um, with their caregivers during that first trip over the course of a couple days and then come back a six to eight weeks later and do another couple of visits before then taking custody. So it really varies significantly based on the country that we're talking about. But with all countries, families can send information about their family to the child and the child's care givers will review that information with the child prior to the family coming for the adoption trip. So families can send picture books about themselves, um, so that the child can at least see photos of the family, photos of the home, of the family, pets, things like that. In some countries you can send a recordings, audio recordings, uh, in different formats so that the, so that the child can hear your voice thing. And so there are different ways to provide information to a child ahead of time prior to that adoption trip to help familiarize the child with your family.
Speaker 2:Are there many countries that are allowing things like facetime or video chats, skyping or whatever, so that,
Speaker 4:does that help? It does help. So, uh, there are countries that are allowing that and even, you know, even some countries you can do it in some orphanages and not others depending on the services that they have and the technology that they have in that. So, but yes, it does help the child become familiar again with the voice and how those, you know, what those people sound like, what they look like. You know, a video says so much more about us than, um, than still photos. And so it's really nice for children to be able to see kind of how their new parents will be interacting, what they look like when they're talking, what their mannerisms are. All those things really do help familiarize the child.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, yeah. And so it's worth, um, if you're adopting a child, it's worth exploring with your agency what options you might have an absence of a transition period to give the child a good feel for who you are and, and so that, that will make that transition less terrifying for the child when you get there. Um, and are, especially when you, when you leave Danielle, you said you use the word night. I appreciated it at a good fit. You know, one of the, the things that a lot of parents wonder is when you're looking at a child and trying to just an older child, I mean, older kids come with a more form. They have more distinct personalities then do infants, they, uh, they have opinions, uh, certainly more opinions than an infant. So when we're adopting older kids were bringing a fully formed human being into a family unit with any number of other fully formed human beings. So how do we, how can we tell, uh, especially because primarily at first we're looking at children on paper. How can we tell? What are some things to look for to tell if a child would be a good fit for your family?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a, that's a good question and a tough question. Um,
Speaker 4:no.
Speaker 3:Hi. And you just don't know for a long time. And the other part of it is that we like to tell our families as it might not feel like a good fit for a really long time. And that's okay. And I think the important thing is, is if you're going to adopt an older child to stay committed, um, because it is a fully formed child with different, you know, maybe traumatic history and things that they like and different cultures potentially. And all these things that play in. And I think the best, I mean to look for, I would say, you know, do they, do they like where you live? Like, do they like maybe you could or can you see yourself giving that child a life that they would want to live? Um, you know, do they like sports and will you be able to do that with them? You know, things like that. But other than that, it's kind of about the parents making sure that they do maybe change their life and their family style a little bit to work with the kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That, uh, he remembering you're the adult here and it is easier for you to make the changes then, although these children may be fully formed, you can't see me. I'm using air quotes for that. They're fully formed. Was that, uh, is, uh, yeah. Uh, you know, they're not fully formed and they're going to have a harder time adjusting. Celeste, anything that you could add as to, particularly from the international perspective, uh, because oftentimes we have even less information, although that really does vary by country,
Speaker 4:right? That does vary by country. And I, in a lot of countries, we do get information about likes and dislikes and kind of personality traits, whether they are an outgoing child or whether they prefer to keep to themselves. Um, how they interact with, with their peers can, can really give families, um, a clue as to a child's personality. And I think really taking a look at how a child is described and how you think that fits within your family unit. Um, some kids, you know, really love all the attention and other kids don't need all the attention. And so if you have a family of three or four kids already and you're looking at adopting a child who really fights for attention with their peers, then maybe that's not going to be the perfect fit because that might cause some strife with the other kids in the home who also deserve that attention. So we try to have families really take a look at as much personality information that we, that we can gather. And then we always try to help families understand that. Um, even though this is how this child is described, that might not play out, you know, once this child gets to your home so you could see a completely different child once they're home. And you know, you just need to be, to be open and you're right, we the adults.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And keep in mind that you can get with both international and foster adoption, you can get some information with foster adoption. You can talk with, uh, uh, oftentimes you can talk with their current caregivers are foster parents or their group home parents or whatever. So you can talk and get some information. You can also ask for the child's complete file and an international adoption. You can ask for information, you can ask questions, uh, that will have to be translated through and provide it for you. But, uh, with the child's care givers there, uh, information. So it's not like you're going in totally blind. You will have a feel just from information that people who are currently, um, living with the, um, living with the kids. Um, at Celeste, I was glad you raised the issue of siblings because oftentimes when we are adopting older children, we are bringing them into families that have children in the home. Uh, so there is, it's not just the fit with the parents, it's the fit with the siblings and the fit with the, the family unit as well. Let's talk a little about preparing siblings for the adoption of an older child, which I think is different than preparing kids for the adoption of an infant. Uh, let's start with you Celeste on that one. Um, some about, uh, at, what are some tips that you can use to help prepare the children in the home? Both when you're either, you've already decided are prior to deciding and should you, should you involve the kids in making the decision? Let's start, maybe that should be the best place to start. Should the children already in the home be involved with the decision? Uh, are, do you involve them afterwards?
Speaker 4:I do think that children that are already in the home should be involved in the final decision in choosing to adopt, especially when we're talking about an older child. The disruption to the family is significant and if you don't have buy in from, you will know what we call the resident children, then it's going to be even harder on them during that adjustment. And it is a significant adjustment for children that are already in the home. Um, and I think that, you know, one of the biggest things, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of people are, a lot of kids are like, oh great, another sibling, somebody else to play with. Um, you know, and if it's another girl then the girls in the home or be like, oh good, I'm gonna, you know, this'll be a friend. Well, it's not necessarily going to be a friend. And, um, and so that's hard for kids to understand. It's also hard for kids to understand that adoption is a trauma and these children tend to have significant difficulties with this initial adjustment and that can look different for, for every kid. And so that could be temper tantrums. That could be, you know, that child completely holing up and not engaging and resident children could see that as being rejected. Um, and it's, it's not a rejection. It's, it's their adjustment. It's a trauma. It's, um, these kids are having a hard time and we need to help pull them out of that and, um, and help them adjust and, and be welcoming. The other thing is that when it comes to language, um, you know, kids have a hard time if they can't communicate with their new sibling. Um, and so we have to prepare kids for different ways to communicate, okay, this child's not going to be able to speak English. What different things can we do? How can we help this child learning English? Um, how can you communicate with him or her? Um, when you guys don't speak the same language and really talk with kids about that. And then the last thing I think that's really important to review with children that are already in the home is that the child that the family is adopting maybe eight years old, but developmentally this child will be younger and preparing children for that so that they understand if this eight year old that's coming into your home is really interested in toys that are for, you know, historically younger kids or if this child relates better with younger children that are in the home rather than older children. If you're displacing the birth order, that's a pretty normal thing. And so, um, but that's hard for resident children to understand, well, they're eight years old. Yeah. But you know, they haven't had the same life experiences as you have. And developmentally they're still, they're still a little bit, we need to help them catch up. So
Speaker 2:I've heard a rule of thumb that says, uh, the age that the child gravitates age of the children that the child gravitates towards to hang out with, to interact with is a pretty good barometer of their developmental age. I don't know if that's been supported by, uh, by research, but it does make common sense to me, um, to take a look at the age of the child is of children. The child is, it seems to be drawn to,
Speaker 4:right. I don't either, but it's something that I've noticed as well. So,
Speaker 2:yeah. Danielle, what are some other typical adjustment behaviors that families should expect when adopting an older?
Speaker 3:Um, so I couldn't agree with more with what's the last session about involving other kids in the home. I do think it is really important to, um, again, talk to the children already in the home about, um, what they might see as far as behaviors. And also just preparing for the idea that the kid, the child being adopted might need a little bit more attention for awhile while they will need more attention for a while. And that can kind of be upsetting to kids that are already in the home, you know, and they might feel a little bit left out or like they're being neglected. But you know, as long as the communication stays open and as a parent are constantly checking in and seeing how things are going, I think that's really important. But yeah, kids who are adopted and especially older kids, you might see a honeymoon phase our first where, you know, if, I mean kids in foster care usually are pretty excited to come into an exciting new home. Not Always, but I've seen a lot of kids, you know, it's kind of like this cool new place where there's new toys and there's, they're doing fun things all the time in the beginning and that's all good. And then eventually, you know, reality hits and it is really hard and it is a trauma. So then you might see behaviors come out and you know, tantrums. Um, when they get upset by something, throwing things, I'm shutting down and not connecting with the family. That's happened a lot too. And that can be upsetting for the family as well.
Speaker 2:You know, uh, uh, you raise a point that we do see happen and new child comes in, has a different background and oftentimes there are a, in fact, almost always these children had been exposed to trauma. And as you point out, just the being removed from their birth home and, and, and being placed in your home and having usually spent time in between and a foster home or a orphanage, uh, all of that is traumatic. So these kids have experienced trauma and many times their behavior will reflect that trauma. So when it comes to discipline, a adoptive parents have to make decisions on, alright, you know, what battle is worth is worth fighting at this point and what's the most important thing we need to be working on? And so, so sometimes things that they expect of the children existing already in the home, um, are, are different. They have a higher standard for their children that they have parented for a while then they do with the new children coming in or a child coming in. But that can cause resentment. So thoughts on how you handle that, those differences. Um, and, and how you explain those differences to the children already in the home.
Speaker 3:I mean I like what's the last product, just talking to the, to the other children already in the home about developmental differences and how we might have to treat, you know, our new sibling as if they were a little bit younger in the beginning to help them catch up due to, and depending on how old the kids are in the home, you know, you can be a little bit more honest about, you know, they've been through some really hard things that you haven't had to go through. And we hope that we can provide a home for them where they, all that stuff can, can be healed and they can, you know, develop and progress and catch up to you. So, you know, how can we do that together? You could come up with a plan where they feel comfortable and know that when they see, you know, mom or dad do this, they know that they need to step away and give them that time. Or you know, you could also make plans about making, you know, separate time for them as well so that they know that they're going to have, you know, one day a week where they get to spend time with you alone. Um, virgin. They don't, they don't have to fight for that attention. I think there's a lot of ways you can do it, but I think the more you can involve the kids in the home, the better they're gonna feel. You know, they're going to feel like they're, they're making some of these choices as if it is a big change for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm so glad you raised the point about making certain that you are continually checking in with the kids who are already in the home and creating time. And honestly, I can, I, I can feel parents rolling their eyes. Even as I say this, you've got a new child in your home. Uh, everything is topsy turvy. You feel like you haven't got time to do anything. And now someone is suggesting, oh, create time for individual time for uh, all the kids in the family and you think, yeah, right. You tell me how to create more time. So I think it's it, but I, I still think it's good advice and I think it's good to be creative and how you can do this. Um, take, uh, uh, a child to the, uh, to the grocery store. Uh, it take children when you're running errands and also asked for help at the beginning. Ask for help from people. Say, I, you know what? Somebody offers to bring you a meal rather than saying, oh no, no, that we don't need one. Say Yes. Fight Ali. I would love one. Uh, so look at ways that if somebody isn't sure how they could help you suggest that they can maybe do the laundry or something to give you just to free up time. This is not forever, but for the short term it would be really nice to, to have a little bit of a break. Uh, and and free up some of your, uh, some of your time that you, that you might be, I might be needing to spend with the kids who are already in the, in the family. All right, let me pause now and remind everyone that you are listening to creating a family. And today we're talking about older child adoption. A A, as I said, a really important topic. This show is brought to you by our underwriters. Our underwriters are the ones who are organizations who believe in everything that we're doing and are willing to support what we're doing. Cause it's probably the most important thing. They're willing to support what we're doing. So I wanted to tell you about jockey being family and most important, I'm going to tell you about their upcoming gala and golf classic. It is May 19th and 20th, and it is in Wisconsin, the grand Geneva resort spa. It's on this beautiful light in Wisconsin, Lake Geneva. It's not all that far from Chicago. So from those of you in that general anywhere and that general area, it would be a great toe weekend away. You can buy your tickets yet now@jockeybeingfamily.com and uh, you would not only be having a blast at their gala, uh, but you would also be supporting an whose mission is to help families post adoption and by supporting organizations like us and this show, uh, and it's, it's, it's hugely helpful for us. And so jump over there, their website, jockey being family.com and you can buy your ticket there. Alright, so we've talked about, um, some of the adjustments. Let's now talk about some of the things that we can do to help create attachment. Uh, we have certainly that's the buzz. We all know that attachment is crucial. Um, so there's two types of attachment or that's not really two types. Two ways to attack. There is the child attaching to the parent and the parent attaching to the child. Celeste, can you talk with us some about techniques for families to help them attach to a, an older child is fully formed human being that has come into their family. What are some things that they might do to help build those bonds of attachment? Well, I think
Speaker 4:for they bring that child into their home. They, um, you know, they can start forming that attachment with that child by placing that child's photo up in the house, talking to their other family members and friends about the child. Um, and you know, starting to gather as much information as they can about the child doing things that, you know, are typically nesting things, getting the child's room ready, doing some shopping for the child. All those things help, uh, help a family connect to a child and um, and help them claim the child. So the, but you know, one of the tough things with older child adoption is, is the name and what do you do with the name? This child has a name and typically it's not the name that that you picked out. And so, um, how do you, how do you, how do you address that? And so in, in some families, you know, with some kids that makes total sense to keep that name and other cases, it may be, it's a really hard name to pronounce and, um, maybe the child doesn't really have a big connection to that name. Um, but naming is typically a really claiming thing that, that parents do with their children. And so I recommend really trying to delay the name change, um, until meeting that child until talking to that child, um, about names and once your home, um, having that child give their opinion on their name and what they would like to be called, um, and helping explain, um, how, how we get, how we are named and what names mean. And maybe explaining, you know, how the other kids in the family were named and why they were named the way they were. Um, and so coming to that together with the parents and the newly adopted child and making that decision together.
Speaker 2:And that's, that's more often I believe in issue with international adoption. And I think parents sometimes worry about the, the name being hard to pronounce a and making the child, uh, stand out. Um, I certainly see a lot more families keeping the name now than in the past. Celeste, are you also see, and again I'm only speaking with, I'm going to in a minute, talk about, uh, um, uh, foster with adopters to foster care. Um, uh, how do you help write the, uh, whether or not to change the name because it sounds unusual or the family thinks are going to have, uh, trouble pronouncing it versus the fact that this is a name that the child has identified with?
Speaker 4:Well, internationally, um, a lot of kids also have nicknames. And so that's another really important thing to know. So in our case, um, our child, um, his birth name was this really long name that took me about six months to figure out how to spell and then, um, but it was always called Max. Um, and that was his name in Thailand. Everybody called him Max, they and, and so it was, it was his nickname. It was nowhere on his birth certificate. Um, and so, you know, it was, it was easy to just continue to call him Max. And so I think it's really important for families to ask if the child has a nickname, um, because most often they do.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. Okay. Yeah. Um, Danielle and foster care adoption, um, I perhaps I'm wrong. It seems to me that that is less common for families to change the name. And that could impart be, because most names, you know, they're, they're going to be English or prayer or at least perhaps not terribly unusual. All of that doesn't hold true for everything. So let's talk a little about the importance of names in foster care adoption and uh, uh, things to consider before a family changes. Names.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is much less common. I've, I've, I've actually never seen a family change. Um, any child's first name, the last name becomes more of a, a question cause usually these kids come in with the last name. And I, I think that it's up to the child and the family to decide, you know, down the line of if the child wants to take their family's last name, I think it's really giving the child some empowerment. If you can give them that choice. And oftentimes children as they become more comfortable and they a part of their new family, they want to change their last name. But I would always recommend kind of giving the child that voice and choice because that really helps them to, to feel like they have a place in their family and if they want to change their first name, I mean, same thing. I guess if they feel like changing it and that they feel like they identify with a different name then great and then they can support that. But I would always recommend allowing the child to keep their name, if that's really holding on to a part of their history that they want to hold on to.
Speaker 2:Um, a question that we often get with older child adoption, uh, surround food issues. Um, food is a common problem for newly as well as not so newly adoptive families. Danielle, can you talk to us about some of the more typical food issues you might see, um, with children, uh, being adopted at an older age and children who have experienced a trauma in their youth and sometimes the trauma and neglect involved a few food insecurities?
Speaker 3:Yes. Um, so I mean, a major thing that I see with older kids going into new homes is that they're just very set in their ways about what they like to eat. So it can be an issue if an adoptive family is you saying, you know, this is what we make and that's it. And then the kid will say, okay, well then I'm not going to eat. And then that can kind of causes like a battle. But, um, you know, so I, you know, there's things, there's ways to work around that, especially, um, in the beginning really asking the child what they like to eat and what can I, what can I cook for you and can you show me, can we do this together? And kind of incorporating what they like, what they like into, you know, regular meals. But also I have some kids who tend to overeat. Um, and that could be because of their history and previous foster homes or in their, you know, in their original family. Um, maybe they didn't get enough food. Maybe they were worried that they, you know, that they weren't going to get enough the next day. So they eat a lot and I've had some families kind of have concern about that and I think all those things can be worked through if it needs to be with the therapist, great. If it can just be work through over time with building trust and safety in the home, then that sometimes it works too. But, um, yeah, I I see, I see a lot of overeating and a lot of picky eating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was just going to bring up, I I hear all the time. In fact, I might even say it's a number one thing that, uh, I will hear from parents. It's picky eating or only, which is again, another way of saying that, uh, is only eating what the parent might consider unhealthy food. Um, and, and a lot of that may come to what the family were, their family of origin, um, cheap process or process. Food is often cheaper, faster make, uh, so it may be what they're, what they're used to. Any thoughts? It's that such, you know, I think as parents, we, it's so geared to an end to us to want to feed our children and feed them healthy things and in good hands, you can't read anything now without hearing about this. Food is good for you, this food is bad for you. And so, uh, that's a little overblown, but it's still, it's something that parents are constantly being faced with. So they're trying to, most of them are, most of us are trying to feed our kids relatively healthy. So thoughts on if you have a kid coming in who seems to strongly prefer what foods that, that you would, uh, would prefer your kids not eating on a regular basis.
Speaker 3:My initial thought would be to just to be a little bit patient and to not expect the change right away because if you start that kind of battle in the beginning, it's going to be a lot harder for that child to feel safe and connected with you. So I know it's really hard. It's really hard for parents who want their children to eat healthy. And even if you have other kids in the home, they're going to look and say, why can't I eat that? So the issue is that, you know, it takes a long time to build a new attachment. And so I think food can slowly progress and we can say, you know, in our family, we don't eat that, you know, so much, but I'm going to let you have it this many times a week. Or I don't know, you have to find out what works for the kid and kind of see what their reaction is. But I would say, um, take, take some time and take some deep breaths and understand that it'll change, but it might take some time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And not let me, uh, uh, mentioned that creating a family, uh, we have a wonderful, uh, chorus in our adopted on food issues. So if this is a problem that you are facing, I strongly recommend that course, uh, on food issues. And it said, our website, creating a family.org, uh, in the horizontal menu, just click on online courses and, uh, I see it, Warren, the online education I think. And then you just click on adopted and you can type in the words food and that, that course will pop up. Celeste, I think that the issues, uh, are even more or even, um, um, perhaps more challenging with children adopted from abroad. Um, because heaven only knows food is, is quite different. I think you have a personal experience with this. When you brought Max over and realizing how incredibly important it was for him to still eat food, that he, that he recognized and understood. Can you tell us some about that, that experience with Max?
Speaker 4:Sure. Um, I agree that, you know, food issues definitely are an issue with internationally adopted children.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:Max, uh, was in foster. Um, but even though he was in foster care, he did not get a whole bunch of food. Um, and he did not get a wide variety of food. Um, when we were in Thailand, he, um, he would order two or three meals, um, and um, whatever he did not eat, he would bring back to the hotel with him. Um, and we just let him do it, whatever. That's fine. And he would, he would snack on that food all day long. Um, and then when we first brought him home, we went to, we went to the grocery store together and I let him pick out whatever food he wanted, um, whether it was junk food or not, didn't matter. And then we went to the Asian market and he has eyes lit up, he visibly relaxed and he picked out like, you know, one or five of nearly everything in the store. Um, he was just so excited that he could still get those things that he was familiar with. And, and I told him, anytime you want any of this food, just say that you want to go to the store and we will come and get this food. And so he has his whole, a whole section in the pantry that is just for him, that is just for his snacks that he wants to have. And uh, you know, when it gets low, he lets me know and we go to the store and he picks out what he wants. Some of it is healthy, some of it is not. Um, that's okay. And you know, we balanced that with at, um, at every meal. You know, if it's something new to him, he has to try it. He has to have a bite of it. He doesn't have to like it and he doesn't have to eat it as his meal. Um, but he needs to try it. And so, um, he has tried a lot of food that since he's been here and I would say probably 80% of it he really likes. And, um, the rest of it, mostly vegetables, he turns his nose up and that's okay. It's kind of like a normal kid. I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Good. And the truth is we can exist on a, sometimes it's a lot in our heads and a lot of pressure that society and in ourselves and our mothers or whoever are putting on us, uh, that, uh, especially at the beginning, that might not be a battle worth fighting Celeste, another common issue and his sleep issues. Uh, and, and that's, uh, particularly difficult because everyone in the family is under stress. It, it's a very, I mean, adopting an older child can be a welcome and wanted thing and it can be a wonderful thing and it, but most often it is a wonderful thing, but it's also a stressful time. And when you're under stress, one of the first things, at least for me that goes is sleep. And, uh, then you throw into the mix a child who is struggling and, and has different and maybe having sleep issues, uh, and, and quite frankly with international, well, both international and foster. But let's start by talking international. Oftentimes children have either never slept alone or they're, they're just in an entirely different environment, uh, asleep environment. Uh, and then when we bring them into our homes, it's, everything is different. So let's talk about some of the typical sleep issues you might find with in international adoption and then some, um, some words of wisdom are some solutions or something, uh, to give us hope.
Speaker 4:Sure. Well, the, the first thing is jet lag. I mean, that's torture for everybody. Oh man, it is. You're right. So initially, you know, to just, if, if a child is asleep, just don't wake them up. Um, um, and try to try to at least get some sleep in there, some hours in there, and then, um, you know, eventually work on trying to sleep at, at the correct times of day. Typically jetlag. Um, you know, typically I see jet lag lasting about two weeks for kids. So, um, but a lot of water will help with jet lag, um, and attempting to go to bed at the same time every night, um, and attempting to wake up at the same time every morning. So trying to, and then gradually moving that time from say, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning to nine 30 in the morning for a couple days, then nine o'clock in the morning for a couple days. So just kind of gradually adjusting your body to those hours. Um, but one of the biggest things is that, uh, you mentioned is that children typically, uh, internationally, these children, I've never slept alone. And, um, you know, in the United States that is a cultural thing that kids have their own bedroom and their own bed. And, and as parents, you know, uh, me included, I, I like my sleep and I don't really want to sleep with, with kids who kicked me in the face. I'm right there with you right there with you. So, um, but it is a struggle for kids who have never slept alone. And so there are a couple things that you can do. Um, I always recommend if you don't want that child in your bed for the longterm, I mean, some people do a family bed and that's totally fine. That's your family choice. Um, and the, and that works. Um, but if you don't do a family bed, I recommend starting that child in that child's bedroom, in that child's bed, and you as the parent going to that child. If that means that you bring another mattress into that bedroom so that, um, you're sleeping on a mattress in that child's room with that child. Um, if you're sharing that mattress for a little bit and then eventually, um, you're sleeping in two separate mattresses in the same room, then eventually you're sliding that mattress out. Um, maybe you're starting in that bedroom and finishing in your own bedroom once that child is actually, you know, dead to the world asleep. Um, you know, with, with us. Um, our son also was not used to, had never slept alone, was not used to that. Um, and so we had, um, we have, uh, we have another boy. And so we had the boys share a bedroom and, um, he was very comfortable with that. Um, and so they shared a bedroom for the first, oh, probably nine months that, that Max was home. And, um, once the, our other son moved out of the bedroom into his own bedroom, then max started sleeping with Wilma with our family dog. Um, and he, once she is in bed with him, then he is very comfortable falling asleep. He just needs that extra body there whether, whether it's his brother or or cuddly dog. So
Speaker 2:yeah, that's a creative solution and I'm sure Wilma as equally as happy, particularly form, I had not been allowed on the bed to sleep before. So there you go. Oh, when, when, uh, Danielle, let's talk about some sleep issues that we may see with older children adopted some of the very same issues but, but some other issues that we might see with children adopted from foster care and they don't have to be unique to children adopted through foster care. Let's just talk about some other sleep issues you might see with older children adoption.
Speaker 3:Yeah. A lot of what was mentioned is exactly what we might see. Another issue that has come up for children who are adopted older, um, is that nighttime is, is kind of a scarier time. It can be a time, whether, you know, whether it has to do with their path or just the fact that they're afraid and it's new. So you might see more behaviors come out at bedtime. You might see tantruming, you know, crying uncontrollably and kind of, you don't really know what to do. And I think that can be upsetting for parents. So just as much as you can, um, be there for them, sit with them, let them know that you're not going to leave them. It's okay that they're upset. And I think a big thing that, that parents can do is talk to the previous foster home or wherever they were living and see what were their routines before, um, they moved for bedtime, you know, and how can I incorporate those same exact routines in my family, at least for a while. Um, so that they have some sort of comfort and regularity. So, you know, it might be that they always got dessert right before bed and maybe you didn't do that before, but you know, you could do it for a while. Um, maybe it was reading a book, maybe it was, they got to watch TV, whatever it was that they kind of feel like there's some continuity there.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Not a, not a uncommon one is the falling asleep while watching TV. Uh, and so that, and again, that kind of similar where families may not want to establish that habit, but the idea is to more gradually, uh, establish a comfort and attachment and security and then gradually shift away, uh, to what you believe is, is, is, uh, is better. I want to talk about an issue that often comes up, uh, an older child adoption when people have existing kids in the home and that is disrupting birth order. Now, it used to be there was kind of in the, uh, adoption professional community, there were, um, strong opinions against ever disrupting birth water. Okay. Um, and that's, uh, that's a problem when, uh, with adopting older children, uh, because it certainly limits the pool of, of, of additional families. And clearly there are children who, who do need to be the youngest. And we'll talk about that in a minute. But, uh, Danielle, can you talk to us some about the pros and cons to, uh, disrupting birth order? And then I want to shift to talking about, uh, with both you and Celeste talking about, um, if families are going to disrupt birth, what are some things they need to consider and plan for? So let's start with the pros and cons of disrupting birth water, Daniel.
Speaker 3:So I think I also have heard from a lot of people that they don't recommend doing it. Um, but I, I do believe that it just depends on your family. Um, I would say, you know, a con is that it really messes up kind of the place that you're the child in the home, the place that they felt they were. I mean, you know, first children always kind of have this, this place in a family and they're kind of like the older big person as they grow up. And, and I think if you brought in an older child, they would kind of be confused and think, well, I'm supposed to be the first kid. And, and I think there's ways to work around that. But I think the, you know, a benefit could depending, you know, depending on how young you are, you the child in the home already is. But if you brought an older child in that you know, is developmentally younger, well then maybe they would get along great and they would actually be great playmates for a while and, and also your child in the home could influence that new child and then, um, have a great older sibling to look up to. So I think it depends on the age of the child in the home and kind of how you're, how much you're willing to work with that if it comes up with some issues.
Speaker 4:Okay. Celeste, let's talk about some of the challenges when disrupting birth order. Uh, let me ask, did you disrupt birth order? Are, are, did you maintain the same birth order? We maintained the birth order. Um, and I agree it depends on the family. There are pros and cons to doing it. Um, the one of the cons is that again, like we talked about developmentally, uh, these children are typically developmentally younger than their stated age. And so when you are disrupting birth order, it's really important to take a look at the age of the children in the home, the chronological age of the child that's being adopted. And what do we think developmentally this child's age kind of really is? One of the hard things with families is that, you know, or with kids is that they don't understand developmental age. They really understand chronological age and chronological age, really important to kids and right. And they really feel like their privileges should be, um, equal to their older siblings. And so, um, you know, if an older sibling gets to do something at the age of 12 and then, um, but you have adopted a child who's 13 and they are not developmentally appropriate to receive, um, you know, that privilege, then that's a really difficult conversation. That's a really difficult concept for really, for any of the kids in the home to understand. And so, um, so that, that I think is a struggle when, when we're talking about disrupting, um, the birth order, even, you know, if we're disrupting the, um, you know, throwing a kid in the middle, um, or even disrupting the placement of the oldest child, you know, and one solution to a, not necessarily an easy solution to the privilege being tied to chronological age is
Speaker 2:to try to, even before the new child enters the family, to try to stop referring to privileges based on age. But based on maturity, um, you get to stay up till eight 30 and your younger sister has to go to bed at seven 30 because younger children need more sleep or because she, uh, it gets very cranky or whatever. And tying them and tying it into you are able to handle this responsibility are you get to stay home alone because we know that, uh, you know how to dial nine one, one meeting shown a lot of responsibility so that, uh, I mean whatever a host of things so that it's tied to the maturity of the child and that it's a privilege that's earned, not a privilege is given based exclusively on age. And I will just tell you that that's an easier thing for me to say here than it is for me to say to my children. Um, it's a, it's a, that's a hard sell, but I do think ahead of time, uh, you can, you can start that process and it's hard. It's hard for the new kid coming in as well, although sometimes they haven't experienced the, uh, the privilege based on age as tightly. So it may be maybe not quite so, um, uh, so difficult. Uh, Danielle, I want to, I think we would be remiss if we don't talk, uh, about the issue when disrupting birth order of, um, you, we need to be careful that all the children in the family or safe and children who have experienced, who come to us at an older age have, have, uh, not infrequently had a lot of experiences in exposed to things then. And the one that comes to mind that worries families. Um, Mr universally is sexual abuse and even if it's not sexual abuse but just sticks exposure to sexual materials, which is a form of sexual abuse. So how can we make certain, and if we're disrupting birth order, the issue is, uh, we were had or bringing in a child who is older than some of the children in the family. So at least until you, uh, have a good feel for the child coming in, uh, we recommend caution. So let's talk about, uh, what do we mean by caution and what are some things that parents can do, which is not to say you need to be paranoid and make assumptions, but it, it's, it's healthy to start off cautious for all forms of, of, uh, of behaviors that you need to protect younger children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so true. I think, you know, I think, you know, even though we are, families do get, you know, a pretty decent background on the child, we still don't know everything and we, you know, some of the behaviors that they show, it might not be everything that's going to come out, especially when they start to get comfortable. So I think it is really important to stay, to just be aware. Um, and that's kind of another part about bringing in an older child into a home with other kids is that you actually might need to have conversations with your children that are already in the home about some kind of hard stuff. You know, like actually bringing up the fact that, you know, this child coming into the home, they, we don't know everything that they've seen or you know, we don't know their whole background. So you, you know, could you let me know if anything happens? You know, could you let me know if they show you anything inappropriate? You might have to really have that conversation, which can be tough because you don't want to necessarily expose your kids to the things that you don't want them to be exposed to. But, um, I think you have to be able to talk about it with your kids versus saying quiet and just hoping it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:We all need to be aware of the, the good touch, bad touch. And as much as we may want to believe, we don't need to have that conversation with other children who are in our family already. It's not a bad idea to have that conversation just across the board. But if you're bringing in an older child who has been in an orphanage, our has been, uh, uh, and foster care system. Um, it is very important to have this conversation so that the children in your home understand the distinction between good and bad touch and understand that it is okay to tell you and you won't be angry with them. And it's, it's, uh, it's not going to be their fault and, uh, to give them permission and then to, uh, subtly checkin. And the other thing is just being present, uh, at, for awhile. There shouldn't be a whole lot of time with the children are alone without adult supervision. Uh, and soon enough you're going to get a feel. Um, so those are some suggestions. We'll let me mention that. Uh, again, we have a number of things courses and our adopted in our foster at, uh, for uh, disrupting, uh, birth order. We have, uh, a couple of courses and they're just terrific that get very, very detailed, uh, advice on, um, uh, uh, what children should not have their birth order disrupted and uh, suggestions of what families can do to do it successfully. And we also, uh, if you are in the position, uh, of, uh, having adopted a child that you believe may have been sexually abused, we also have courses that help you raise that child and in a healthy way as well. Let me pause for a moment and remind you that this show is brought to you by the generous support of agencies who believe in our mission of unbiased education, both pre adoption and post adoption to have these great agencies. Our children's house international, they have a reputation of working in the best interest of the children and supporting adoptive families while providing ethical adoption services. They had been reuniting or uniting families for over 40 years and they have found homes for over 3000 children. And we also have children's connection. They are an adoption agency providing services for domestic infant adoption and embryo donation adoption to out the u s they also perform home studies and post adoption support to families in Texas. I even shy when I think about raising this next topic and it is academics. Uh, I tell Ya, the, uh, nothing has brought me as close to my knees and parenting is, uh, then, uh, working with children, uh, and trying to get the school system to work with kids who are significantly behind academically, are having learning disabilities, are having huge gaps in their past. And all of these things are common with children who had been adopted at an older age, regardless of whether they've been adopted through foster care or international, although certain with international, we've got the language issues thrown in as well. MMM. It is such an issue in, it's such a scary one, particularly when you're adopting older kids because you feel like you're running out of time. You feel like, oh my gosh, he's in, he's in 10th grade and he still is reading on a third grade level. Will he ever be able to get a job? Well, he ever move out of my basement. Oh, you know, it's all these worries that, that just run through your mind and then you're facing what feels like oftentimes a bureaucracy. Celeste, some thoughts on how we can put academics in perspective when adopting an older child.
Speaker 4:Oh, I agree. That's tough. That is every single prospective adoptive parent worries about this. Um, really, um, families need to remember that the majority of these kids have experienced some significant traumas in their life. Um, and learning will be really hard for these kids if they are not, um, comfortable and secure in their relationship with you as adoptive parents. Um, if they don't feel comfortable at home. Um, and so really focusing on that relationship building and you know, letting the school work go for a bit. It will come, they are exposed to, well internationally they are exposed now to English 24, seven. When they're in your home, they will learn English just by being around you. Um, they're not going to be fluent just by being around you. Obviously they do need lessons. Um, but it's very different to learn a language by immersion than it is, you know, to go to school and take Spanish classes. Right. And so, um, these kids do learn faster, um, the language and it will come, but again, their brain cannot absorb school information until they are more calm and feel more secure
Speaker 2:in their family. Yeah. And I think that also children who have experienced trauma as well as, and, and, and that trauma could be in the form of prenatal exposures to drug and alcohol and, and also children who have not been in school for the first couple of years or kids who have been very radically in school, so are significantly behind their age mates. Um, I think that's just across the board. And, uh, some great advice that was given to me that, uh, I, I repeat, uh, is that if you have to choose between or the relationship between you and your child and the child doing the homework or the child succeeding in school, choose the relationship, which is the relationship every time. And that really helped me. And so I share that, uh, the academics will, are, they maybe won't come. Your child may not go to Harvard, you know, uh, the world is not going to fall apart. Uh, there is a place and a profession, uh, are a way to be gainfully employed that your child will find. And that helped me in the middle of the night when I was worried that my child would never be able to be independent because they weren't going to be able to learn, you know, or, or get a high school diploma. All right. I want to end on a, uh, on a note of why should people consider, what are some reasons why people should consider adopting an older child. Danielle, let me start with you and then Celeste dog. We'll end with you. So Danielle, what are some reasons why people should adopt an older child?
Speaker 3:Um, I think most importantly just that older children have been, you know, they've often spent years and years in and out of the foster care system and they're really coming onto this critical period of time of, you know, forming an identity and developing into an adult that they're going to be. And so they really need a supportive permanent home. And it's interesting, you know, basically they say it takes one caring adult to change a kid's life. So, even though it's going to be a struggle at times and it's going to be sometimes a really long road, if you stay committed and give a child connection and love and safety and support, they will thrive. And these are kids who are really out of critical time.
Speaker 2:I love the power of one. Uh, there is, uh, Google, there's some memes out there. The power of one caring adult is what these kids need. That's beautiful. All right. Celeste will give you the last word.
Speaker 4:I love that too. I feel like I can't even, I can't top that. Um, that was a little unfair. It wasn't actually, I save that for the, the last thing we said. Okay. Sorry about that. That's okay. But I totally agree. Um, and, and these kids do, they do need someone who can help them launch, you know, and, um, you know, the other thing is that what I, what I think is great about older kids is that they're making this decision to, they want to be adopted. And, um, so I, I think it's great that you have to two individuals are I guess parents, you know, two parents and, and then a child that are choosing each other and um, and so it will be tough and there will be a lot of downs. Um, but that just makes those successes even more sweet.
Speaker 2:And now I feel I can't top that so maybe I won't even try. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your experience and your education, uh, with, uh, those who either have adopted older children or who are considering it. The views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners or our underwriters. And keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice and to understand how it applies to your specific situation, you'll need to work with your adoption professionals. Now I know that you guys are going to want more information from our guest and about the agencies that they work with and to understand asking questions about a older child adoption. You can do that. Uh, Danielle Kaiser, you can go to their website, which is this stuff, del mar.org and to get more information about Celeste Snodgrass are about Holt International. You can go to their website, which is Holt international.org. Thank you so much for joining us today and I will see you next week.