What is the adoption experience for birth mothers and what do they think of some of the controversies in adoption, such as pre-birth matching, adoptive parents at the hospital, adoptive mother breastfeeding, etc. Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit talks with a panel of birth moms about their adoption experience.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
What is the adoption experience for birth mothers and what do they think of some of the controversies in adoption, such as pre-birth matching, adoptive parents at the hospital, adoptive mother breastfeeding, etc. Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit talks with a panel of birth moms about their adoption experience.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.
Speaker 2:welcome everyone to creating a family talk about adoption and foster care. Today we're going to be talking with a panel of birth moms. We have Kelsey Vander Vliet. She is a birth mom to a three year old boy in an open adoption. She was raised in the Midwest but now lives in Los Angeles and is attending Southwestern law school and we have Katie Monroe. She placed her daughter 17 years ago. She has since then gone on to complete her master's degree in social work and she has primarily worked with expectant parents who are considering or making an adoption plan. She is married and parenting three daughters and we have Laura Blanco. She is the mom to a three and a half year old son that she placed for adoption and she enjoys a very open adoption relationship. Welcome Kelsey, Katie and Laura to creating a family. We are so glad to have you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Well I think it would help for everybody to kind of get a lay of the land to understand the, what your adoption looks like, you know, from an openness contact, all that type standpoint. So, Laura, let's start with you. What does your son is a three and a half and he was placed at birth, I guess everybody's children were placed at birth. Uh, so tell us, what does your adoption look like?
Speaker 5:Mine is a very open adoption and very fortunate about are fortunate to have it. Um, originally I was hoping that get just to this year and the adopted dad was like, well, how about every other month? And I said, so, um, so I get to see him every other month. He knows me, he's funny and he knows me as his birth mom. Um, he's kind of shocked me the other day by say, I was in your belly. And I'm like, yes, yes you are. Wow. We also share a text, a group text, and I'd get a couple of updates through that. But primarily my base come, but they, each visit. So it's a very, very awesome open adoption.
Speaker 2:Okay, good. Kelsey, what is your adoption look like?
Speaker 3:So it looks a little different. I used to live in any MapQuest and I moved out West about a year ago. So, um, when I lived in close proximity owl, we had probably five or six visits a year. And then we have, we text and we'll FaceTime and call maybe like once a month. And, but now I see him probably I saw him once in the past year and then I would probably continue on that by seeing him once or twice a lowly max. But it's nice. We have a close relationship, we talk, we still text and um, we'll FaceTime every once in awhile. So it's gotten a little more few and far between over the past year. Um, but I also think that's because he's, he's three and it's just gotten less and less over the years. But it's still, it's still consistent instead.
Speaker 4:Do you feel like that the, the, the diminishing of contact is more from the adoptive parent standpoint or from your standpoint?
Speaker 3:Um, I think we both contributed to that because I moved, so I definitely did that part. I get less texts from them, I think they have another son. I think that life gets busy, you know, that's just kind of reality. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. Okay. Katie, tell us what your adoption looks like. You have had a, you've been, your daughter is 17, so, uh, you have the, the most, the, the most longevity here.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So, um, I play 17 years ago and at the time I think that was considered an open adoption because I knew their information. We exchanged all of that. But I would say over the years for modern, you know, sake, it's probably more Semite in the fact that I haven't seen my daughters since the hospital. And so what it's looked like is that it's been, you know, pictures and updates. Um, in those early years, maybe until she was about four or five, it was pretty regular, probably three or four times a year. Also, during those years, I would get lunch with the adoptive mom on a regular basis. Um, so I'd get those kinds of updates and then through the years it's kind of diminished. The, her adoptive mom actually friended me on Instagram and so sometimes I will get an update that way or she'll send me a text. Um, but it's, it's pretty sporadic now. There's no consistency, um, in what the relationship kind of looks like, um, or the updates look like.
Speaker 4:And from your standpoint, how is the, the, is the inconsistency, are the unpredictability is something that is you're fine with or is it, does it make it more difficult for you?
Speaker 6:I think it's complicated because on one hand it's, it's something I accept because it's reality. But there are definitely times that I wish it was more consistent or was more predictable. I also placed in an era where there weren't contact agreements. It was kind of like a gentleman's handshake. Yeah, we agreed to send you this, but there was no, there was no predictability to it. Yeah, it's complicated.
Speaker 4:Okay. All right. And then additive, it does sound like I would almost, I think by the terminology we use now, it would be considered semi-open. So Katie, from your standpoint, what are your plans for, will you reach out to her? Are you going to wait for her to reach out to you? Is there an age that you feel is that you want to wait until she is, whatever age are, do you feel like you need to work through her adoptive parents or is this not anything that at this point you are interested in?
Speaker 6:Well, it's for sure something I'm thinking about because I think through her life I've always anticipated like 18, Oh, you're an adult when you're 18. And maybe something would happen. Then I realized it may very well not I think, and she just recently turned 17. So we're kind of in that year. Would something happen? Could something happen? Could it be another 10 years? My plan is to, um, reach out to her adoptive mom and center, um, a note and, and just check in that way. Um, I, I don't plan to reach out to her without speaking to her adoptive parents first
Speaker 4:her month. Okay. So we got questions from adoptive parents and adoptees and a, they wanted to know your thoughts on, um, a variety of things. One of which is options counseling. If you saved it from, uh, an adoption agency, did you feel like there was a conflict of interest? Did you think it was adequate? So yeah, let me start with you Kelsey.
Speaker 3:My options counseling was kind of not really a thing. I guess I went to a pregnancy center at some point. I have a weird uh, experience with that. I w I went to a planned Parenthood and then I went to pregnancy center and everyone, I think the only thing that people didn't offer it to me, it was parenting and it was everything. I felt very pulled in either direction. I didn't feel pulled by the pregnancy center. I only went there once and they were very supportive to me because I was very scared and they really just walked me through talking to my mom about being pregnant cause I hadn't told her. So they didn't really do options counseling. I just don't think I was at that stage with them. Um, I went to them with like shock and with planned Parenthood the route they wanted me to go as a portion and then with everyone in my life it was very much like adoption or go back to the clinic and get an abortion. And so I never felt like anyone will not, not the right person I guess was telling me was giving me unbiased options. Counseling
Speaker 4:with an agent or did you eventually connect with an agency?
Speaker 3:Well, one thing a private attorney does matching and stuff in Indiana and no, I never heard from them either.
Speaker 4:Okay. Let's say Katie, what about you? 17 years ago, what was, who counseled you on what your options were, which might include adoption, but it might include other things as well?
Speaker 6:Well, I think I had, I still do have a very supportive family and so we sought counseling separate from an agency and or an attorney or a pregnancy center went to just a therapist. And so I do believe she, she did provide me with options counseling, but it was all on our own. It wasn't, you know, by the time I got to where I was going to make an adoption plan, then the agency that we worked with, it was very sided towards adoption and not of their fault. So I don't know that the attorney or the agency would have done that, but we did that as a family on our own.
Speaker 4:[inaudible] okay. Laura, what about you? Were you counseled by anyone? And if so, um, uh, what was that experience like? Was it fair? Was it unbiased?
Speaker 5:So my first, I guess random counseling and came from feeling like friends today I found out and she kind of like, we talked through all, you know, all three options in, she had experienced with the mom of the family. She had experienced with another family friend of theirs who had, um, such difficulty with infertility. And so she knew about the adoption world because it's something that they were exploring. Um, like a couple years before I found out. And so she kind of gave me just a good framework about what to think about the three different options. Personally, I did not think abortion was going to be the best option for me and my, my child. So, um, that was off the table immediately. And by the time I made it to my adoption agency, um, my heart was set on adoption. And so I kind of came about that on my own before I went to my agency. And my agency was, was very good about being hands off as far as letting me make my decision. So I knew my options before I made it to the agency. But they made it clear that if I did choose to parent that child that they would be completely supportive of me and helping me with the resources and whatnot. So as far as the options, counseling, um, that was more on my own in through family friends.
Speaker 4:Okay. Another, there are some in the adoption world who feel like pre-birth matching is coercive to expect it. Women are expecting parents that it would be better to, uh, not allow expected parents to know anything. And you make choices about, uh, the adoptive parents. There are other people who feel that it's, uh, it's fair. It's a fair thing for this big of a decision that expectant parents have the ability to have time on their side when making this decision. Thoughts on that? Katie, do you feel that pre-birth matching has a coercive element where it puts too much pressure on the expectant parents once they meet the adoptive parents and get to know him to place?
Speaker 6:Or is it a good thing because it allows the uh, expectant parents to have time? Yeah. Well, I'm not even sure I fully understand what people who don't agree with having the mom have, have the ability to match pre-birth what they would do. Where would that child go? You know, I, I, I really believe in early life stability for newborn and this is a significant trauma. So if, if they then think this child should go from home to home to home before it goes to an adoptive family, then I would certainly not agree with that. And in my experience personally and even professionally just looking on, again, I don't have the inner thoughts of the women that I work with, but I do believe that there is a sense of like peace that comes when you've, you've selected that family. Now certainly you still have the option to not choose adoption, but there is an element of, of you know, relief. Okay that this is moving towards towards something. Um, so I definitely, I think there could be coercion involved in it if it's not done correctly, but I think it's a right for uh, a mom that they have that option. Laura, thoughts on that? Um,
Speaker 5:I'm going to echo their last, um, last phrase there. I think it is a right for an expected mom and father to find their, find their match. I know for me and my, my story personally, I was still very fuzzy. I'm experiencing a lot of anxiety up until I met my family up until I, I called up my counselor and I had still pulled her like, I want this family. It's just, I feel a connection with them. And having made that decision and made that choice to place with that specific family and having, you know, seeing the profile and almost searching, envision what this child's life is going to be like in their family and seeing their, their pictures and everything. I got the piece that I, I received from making a decision and shaking hands with them and seeing them face to face. I know they were no longer strangers, they were a family that I was interested in my child too and I can not bad them at all having to make that decision post birth. That would be just crazy. And again, what exactly would be the alternative to placing the alternative? Like to post or choice? Would my child be shopped around or not shopped around but like handed off from foster home to foster home. That's kind of the reason why I went through with adoption and placing him into the arms of the family. I chose instead of trusting him to foster care, which there's some issues with foster care, let's be honest, I wanted to make sure that my child had a home to go to, but I knew that I was entrusting them too. And it was the last bit of control that I had over his life before I surrender my rights to them technically to agency paperwork and paperwork. Um, I knew who he was, who he was going to, and that gave me probably the most amount of peace out of the entire, my entire journey with the adoption.
Speaker 4:Okay. Kelsey, any, any thoughts from your experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, I hear this argument, I've heard this a couple of times about how rebirth matching is coercive and it just, I just, I really do think like in an effort to make things sometimes like, and people's minds and effort to make things more ethical for us, they're taking our choices away sometimes. And it's really frustrating to me to hear because a lot of times I hear these things and it's not even coming from birth moms about the choice the birth mom makes. And so it's, I, I can't imagine going through my doctoral process and being told like, you're going to have to endure this nine months all alone and you can't pick a family until after or you can't get to know them until after. And that time I spent getting to know my son's family was so important. And you, it's, you're able to build this relationship. And if I chose to parent after I gave birth and then that was going to be okay. So I just can't, I just don't understand, I guess how that plays into, you know, realistic terms. I understand that there are a lot of parts about adoption that can be extremely coercive and I do believe that the conditions of a man could be coercive as far as who the parents are or how would the agency acts like or how people conduct themselves in this relationship. But the concept alone of pre-birth matching, I don't believe it was. Course it and I don't, I know there's a lot of women that have matched after or they've placed afterwards or their children have gone to, um, like cradle care in between that time. And that's their choice. As long as that's that woman's choice, I have no qualms, but it's, it's not her choice. And, or now forcing this whole into, to do extra things that she, you know, can't do and we can't, we can't like paint with a broad brush and adoption. So that's my best, my 2 cents.
Speaker 4:You know, as long as we were talking about coercion, um, uh, another thing that we hear, it could be coercive when a hopeful adoptive parents attend either a doctor's appointments with the expected mom or their presence at the hospital, or even their presence at birth during the birth itself. Uh, so thoughts on that? Kelsey, we'll start with you this time.
Speaker 3:Okay. I think to reiterate my points from a forest, it's gotta be her choice. Cause I know women, eh, I, for me personally, I can say I didn't want them in the room when I was giving birth. I didn't, I didn't really involve them too much in the hospital. They came on the second day I was in the hospital and I literally let them spend a couple hours with him while I caught up on sleep. And that was it because in my full time with him, but I know women that wanted them in the hospital or I know women that didn't have literally anyone else in their life and they needed someone to be there and they thought in their mind, who better to be there than these people that I've decided to place with still, I'm still believe that she should be able to change her mind, you know? But I, I just think that, um, it's, it's gotta be her choice. She's gotta be in, in control in that situation.
Speaker 4:I think that the, uh, what I hear is that it's presented to, uh, uh, expect at moms that this is how it's supposed to be done. So it's not a, it's not a full choice that she's making. It's a choice that, that is presented as kind of a fait accompli. That this is how it's done type of thing. I think, I mean not, I'm not, uh, maybe articulating it completely well, but I think that it's the, it's, it sounds like in your case you had total control and a, it wasn't presented that way.
Speaker 3:I think all the good, the decent, you know, um, agencies, attorneys are going to properly inform her of the choice and tell her that the hospital plan is 110% up to her. Obviously there's a lot of corruption in adoption and I have no doubt in my mind that places are telling women this is how it's supposed to be done and I definitely don't back that whatsoever.
Speaker 4:Okay. Laura, what was your experience in and do you feel like that attending doctor's appointments or you know, a OB GYN appointments and being present at the hospital is, is putting undue pressure?
Speaker 5:I think it should be entirely up to the mother and I think that should be part of the adopt the options. Counseling is like you are making an adoption plan that also includes your birth plan. That also includes your doctor's visit plan. Like keep the control in the, in the expected mother's hands. I think is, is right. Um, and probably what we need need to do. Um, for me, I did not want them in my doctor's office. Um, I was still getting freaked out by the sonogram. Um, or not the sonogram, but like the heartbeat monitor, whatever it's called. I still freaked out whenever I heard the heartbeat because, you know, that's still like it, it was just something I could not really understand and I didn't want to have that, that weird, you know, the expecting mother, no, sorry. The hopeful adoptive mother was super excited about, you know, hearing my heartbeat here in heartbeat, her, her hopeful son. And I'm just like, huh, there's a thing inside me. Um, so I did not want them in, in the room. Also, they, I didn't know them until about two months before I gave her. I did not make my plan or I didn't commit to an agency until about two months before I gave birth. So I was pretty late to the game. Um, according to another agency I went to. But as far as, you know, the, at the agency that I placed through, they were super hands-off as far as allowing me to make my own decisions. But I did want the mother in the room with me, um, in the breaking ground and it was the problem. Probably one of the most beautiful moments of my story is having both me, the, the birth mother and an early adopted mother in a room, and I let her cut the cord. Um, just in my mind, that was a way for me to almost give her her child. Um, let's do cut the core from me. But that was my story and it had a really surreal story as far as like all the little intricate details. Um, but I can definitely see how, especially the doctor's visits that can be on the core side of things, especially that whole heartbeat thing. And, and, but it's entirely up to the expectant mother and I, that is, and should be the, the normal practice is how do you want your, like, how do you want the hopeful adoptive parents to be involved with your, you know, your medicals.
Speaker 6:Okay. Uh, Katie, any thoughts that are, um, uh, do you agree kind of with the, what's been set up to this point? Yes.[inaudible] okay. And another question, um, that we got is what did you, what were you looking for when you were choosing a, a, an adoptive family? What were the factors that, and I, I asked this knowing full well that it is so individual, but what were factors that were important to you when making this choice? Katie, let's start with you. Um, you know, I struggle maybe answering this because I'm, it's kind of been a touchy subject for me through the years because I'm, I don't really feel like I was provided with that many options to how many families did you choose from? Three or four maybe. Okay. So, yeah, I struggle because, um, that, that this, I just don't think I was provided with enough. I don't agree with sending people a hundred, but I don't agree with the practice limiting the number of options to that professional like that, that attorney's pot of families or that agencies, pot of families. I think that's a terrible practice that goes on daily in this industry. Okay. Kelsey, some thoughts on that.
Speaker 3:What I looked for in a family, I looked for something that was familiar. I looked for something that was similar to the way that I grew up. I looked for financial stability and emotional stability and someone that was, I don't know, that just was like kind of felt like my personality that we would get along and I mean I think that's what I found definitely.
Speaker 6:And Laura, what were you looking for?
Speaker 5:Primarily a Georgia family who's looking for an open adoption and then that at the applied families to choose from and what I, the family I went with, they just seem to have the most open personalities as far as what their interests were. They weren't super like hyper focused and passionate about one thing. They just had just a general variety of interests in, they love to travel with just something that I hoped for my child or future children and that we could be in a place where we can travel and explore different cultures and whatnot. And that family seemed to have that, you know, all of that. And then I go with just Kelsey said the emotional stability and the financial stability that I could not provide. Um, and my family, that was all check marks.
Speaker 6:I'm good.
Speaker 1:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:all right. Let me pause for a moment and remind people that this show is underwritten by the jockey being family foundation and their mission is post adoption support. And one of the ways that jockey being family does that is through their backpack program. It is for agencies to apply. It is free for the agency and free for the families that the agency applies. They all have their newly adopted families get a backpack with the child's initials and broader. And then inside the backpack is a, a bear Oh stuff, plush bear and a blanket and a tote bag full of, uh, parenting resources for the parents. So if you're an agency or if you're a parent and you would like your agency to participate, let them know about this. And they go to the website jockey being family.com and click on the backpack program. And it's super easy to sign up and all of your families will, will have access to this.
Speaker 1:[inaudible].
Speaker 6:Okay. So another topic that, uh, it seems like all the topics I'm raising are, you know, controversial topics, but that's what the, all the questions came in on. So when adoptive parents fundraise to pay for adoption, let's be honest, adoption is not inexpensive. And parents, many parents have the, the,
Speaker 4:the money to raise a child but not the, you know, cash in the bank to necessarily pay for the adoption out of hand. So what we see more now is adoption, fundraising, repellents, do any number of things, anywhere from a GoFund may are from, uh, you know, yard sales are, you know, uh, spaghetti separate at church, things like that to raise money to help pay for the adoption. Well, this brings to mind about how, uh, expected parents would feel about this because in fact, you know, oftentimes, uh, finances, financial issues are a motivating factor for placing. So let me ask, what are your thoughts about, uh, adoptive parents fundraising to pay for an adoption LAR?
Speaker 5:I'm getting some stuff on this, on Instagram. Um, people going back and forth, I don't see an issue with it. It, it takes a village to raise a child and if they're going, if they're going to adopt and they answer the call to adopt, um, it takes a village to adopted child and raise it. And so I don't see an issue to that. Yeah. I, one of the reasons I placed was I did not have a financial support, um, personally to raise the child. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out what career I want to do and, um, definitely have not made enough past three years, barely support myself. So, um, I can understand that correlation where, well, if it's an expected mother is placing because of financial difficulties and she hears the adopted parents are fundraising, you know, what's that? What's that like? Um, like what does she think about that? I wouldn't have the money to raise him anyway, and if they have money to raise but not to use a duck and they'll need a little extra help from their village. Why not? Like, why is that an issue in my, yeah.
Speaker 7:Alright.
Speaker 4:Katie, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 7:Um,
Speaker 6:I am conflicted on it. Um, I think if they, if they fully provided her with the full information, then go right ahead. Um, but I doubt that some of them would be comfortable enough sharing how much they raised with that mom that is asking them, you know, to place their child with them. So I think if they were fully honest about what they raised then great. Um, and she's all on board with that then then cool. But I think if people are out there raising$20,000, then as an expected mom, I'd be like, wait, why? Why do you need$20,000 and why is this costing 20,000 or 30 or 40, or whatever that number is? And if you, you know, if you needed that, are you going to be able to provide for my child? Um, so I think if was, if
Speaker 4:the information was shared, then I'm cool with it. Okay. Kelsey thoughts?
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, I actually wrote an article on this like earlier this year. Um, and I took a couple surveys from people on, you know, what their thoughts were. And, um, I, at the end of it, I kind of concluded with, if you're not feeling comfortable with the way that you're fundraising as adoptive parents and if you, if what you're doing is making you feel kind of achy and it's time to like revisit that matter. And if you feel like you couldn't, um, tell your birth mom or you're, you're not, you're, you're refined. But the expected mom, if you feel like you couldn't disclose with her anything about the fundraising or if you feel like you would have to keep it a secret, um, from the, the child one day, then maybe you revisit. I do think that the main issue in this is not the fundraising, but the cost of adoption in general. I'm, people aren't paying 40,000, 50,000, 60 plus, um, and a lot of situations with facilitators and some attorneys are charging that much. It's absurd. Um, and so I think that's definitely the main issue. A lot of women have said, you know, all of your, if you're spending all this money, you know, why couldn't you just give it to the, you stuck to mom. And that's not the point, but it is something to think about. A lot of times financial hardship is the top reason that a woman chooses to place her child. And you know, this lack of financial, financial stability combined with this omen of single motherhood is kind of heavy. So I think there's a, there's definitely ways to fundraise that are, um, I guess humble. And, uh, I, what I typically think is a little sketchy is when I see them fundraising for the entire amount, the entire amount is like 50 plus as troubling to me. I kind of as a adoption professional now, I, I basically, I want to see that you're committing to tightening your budget since you've decided to adopt. And I want to see that, you know, you're fundraising in an inappropriate way. I've seen on Instagram, some people fundraise by like doing a giveaway and like making it really, it's just, I don't desensitize the process when you're fundraising. I think that's kind of
Speaker 4:interesting. I didn't realize you had written an article. Um, if you'll send me the link, I will include it with the show notes. Okay. Um, another topic that, uh, we get, uh, questions for, uh, his, uh, birth[inaudible] birth parents, uh, adoptive parents, adoptive moms who, uh, want to induce lactation so that they can nurse their adopted child, but need, uh, be honest upfront that it is not always, in fact, usually you are not able to produce enough breast milk to fully support the child. So oftentimes you are doing, you're also having to supplement, um, through formula, but it, uh, for some adoptive parents, uh, adoptive moms that gives them an added sense of, of, of bonding or whatever. So, and, and they would want to try it and they want to do it. So I'd like to hear and then, but they, the counter argument is that, so how do birth parents feel about this? So Katie, let me start with you. Uh, how would you feel, uh, about, uh, how, how do you feel about an adoptive moms, uh, inducing lactation or trying to induce lactation so that they can breastfeed?
Speaker 6:Yeah, so I've dealt with this, um, a number of times as a professional working, you know, I'm kind of in the agency setting with families. And the expected parents. And I think I kind of have a theme, but my theme is always just honesty and you know, giving that information. So if a ma and a perspective adoptive mom wants to do this, then I think she, in that time where you're kind of meeting or getting to know that I'm expectant parent, she should be forthright with that information. So she has the opportunity to explain how she's come to this decision, why she wants to do this and, and then that allows that expected mom to have the time to process that information and decide if she's comfortable with that. So I, I have a pro, I've had it a problem professionally when it's been this secret. We're telling you as the professional, but we don't want her to know well that that's been really a troubling for me because that's, that's not okay. Why if you're leaving, if you're keeping this kind of information secret from her, what else are you going to keep from her over the years? A secret
Speaker 7:[inaudible]
Speaker 4:yeah, well if you have a theme of honesty, it's not a bad thing to have. So just say, yeah, just throwing it out there. Kelsey. Uh, what are your thoughts on, uh, adoptive breastfeeding
Speaker 3:as an adoption professional? I'm like completely on board with Katie
Speaker 6:as a burden.
Speaker 7:Huh?
Speaker 3:I'm just going to be blunt. I think it's so weird and I, it's so bizarre. In my birth mom mind, I've seen this discussion across a couple of like Facebook groups or birth moms, and it's typically the same theme across of opinion. I'm in response to that. I, I just, I don't
Speaker 8:understand it and I've tried to, and I just don't think that I ever will. Um, but I do agree. I, it's not my choice at the same time, so if that does arise and my professional work, that's the way definitely I agree with Katie and that is the way we handle it. Okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But yeah, but what's your blood reaction? Has a birth mom is you? Huh?
Speaker 3:You're about it. I'm just like, I'm just gonna turn my phone off.
Speaker 4:Laura here. Thoughts on adoptive moms breastfeeding?
Speaker 5:I don't have an adoption professional experience here, so I'm just at the birth mom perspective and I agree with Kelsey. That's weird and I don't really want to know about it. If you want to induce lactation and try and breastfeed the child, go for it. Cool. But I don't know that that's your world.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I think this is Katie. Again. I think the only, I mean I've only become okay with it because I now parents three children and I did nurse them, but prior to parenting a child, I would have felt like Kelsey and Laura, it, it would've been weird. Um, so that's why I think you as the adoptive mother have to be honest and provide some, some reasoning why and kind of not education, like don't preach to her, but what, what does this mean for you? What is this doing for you?
Speaker 4:[inaudible] okay. All right. Um, when you were, when, and Katie, this may be less relevant to you because I'm not sure openness was us and then was the fact that there was contact information being shared, but, uh, how was, uh, so this is probably more for the, the Kelsey and Laura who were recently placed. How was openness described to you and, and, and is the reality it has that, is the reality worked out to be how it was described or did they paint a, did they paint the picture with, you know, and, and all roses and unicorns and things like that. And, and, and the reality is, is has not worked out to be that way. Laura, we'll start with you.
Speaker 5:So my agency was really good about um, describing the different levels of um, openness as far as their definitions go. So they described, um, closed disclosed to nurse, no contact. Then I is updates, um, regular updates and they kind of describe the schedule, those listening by the time they get to uh, 13 and then once you turn 13, it's their decision whether they want to keep continue updates and then complete open and open adoption had that same update as the semi, but it also included contact with the family. And that's obviously the one I chose. The paperwork described one visit a year as their minimum open requirement and for adult further adopted families. And I thought I was going out on a limb and asking for, or two this year and then they blew my mind and said every other month. So for me, by my expectations in my reality and expectations have far been, um, over achieved I should say. And I'm grateful for it, however, that I know that that is not the case across the board. I have heard from several my now friends, um, as I've grown into the, uh, found my, my people and the birth mom community here in Georgia, which is so exciting, but as I've, um, as I've talked with them, unfortunately they will have an understanding of an openness and they've placed a few years ago too. And, um, and yet their families have just completely dropped the ball and not, and not completed their end of the open, open adoption. And unfortunately they just go years without hearing anything or any updates. So I am fortunate that my, uh, fortunate in saying this, but it breaks my heart well, um, at the same time that my open adoption, um, my expectations and my reality are unfortunately and outlier out there.
Speaker 4:You know, and that, uh, raises a, an interesting issue and, and so I'll, I'll point this to you, Kelsey. Were you aware that it would be very hard to, I don't even know if they, if there was a specific contract, uh, a post adoption, uh, openness contract, but even if there was that, were you aware that you would probably have a very hard time enforcing it? Was that something that was, that you felt like you understood that you, it was a, um, uh, a handshake type of agreement? Not necessarily one you could enforce.
Speaker 3:We didn't have post-adoption contact agreements in Indiana. Um, they're not allowed. Um, and I was aware that like, that this was all by, you know, this informal, you know, agreement and agreement isn't even the proper word because it wasn't, you know, it wasn't enforceable. I knew that I, they told me that the, I guess with the previous question too, which is when I went into this, I said I wanted an open it option and the attorney gave me, you know, the, the stack of profiles to look through. And when I met this family and whenever I told where when I talked to them on the phone, I told them that, you know, I want an open adoption. And in my understanding of an open adoption was not with visits, it was just pictures and letters cause that's what the attorney informed me. And when they brought up visits I told the attorney and the attorney was like, well you might entrepreneur a new family then if you want visits cause that's just there. That felt like I had asked for too much
Speaker 4:even though they brought it up. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 3:Bizarre. But yeah, but the attorney definitely made me feel like I had asked for the moon and the stars by asking for visits
Speaker 4:are any contact. Interesting. So Katie, let's talk with you some about the um, again, I uh, not from your personal experience, but having as a social worker and working in adoption. Do you feel like that, uh, expectant parents understand that, that the, the, as after the adoption, the, uh, the control resides even in my opinion, even when there are waiver, when there is a post adoption agreement that the, the, the, uh, the power resides with the adoptive families. Do you think that, uh, that agencies do a decent job of explaining that to expected parents when they're making these choices?
Speaker 6:So are you talking about the contact agreements or like their relinquishment or consent documents like that?
Speaker 4:No contact agreements. The others are the venue making that clarification? No, I'm not relinquishment of parental rights. That is a, that's a legal document that is absolutely forcible. I'm talking about post adoption contact, openness agreement.
Speaker 6:So I think it really varies on the professional that is drafting that for the, um, for the birth parents in California, we do have what are called, you know, they are enforceable contact agreements. Of course they would never overturn the adoption and I, but they are in forcible and you know, can result in mediation or even court. Um,
Speaker 4:yeah, it's hard. It's like, yes, you're correct, but it's, it's going to be on. And I haven't looked at the case law in California and it's possible that you're right, that a judge would force a adoptive parents, but it, all the adoptive parent has to say, it seems to me is that it's not in their child's best interest. And ultimately that's the standard that we use for judging. So I don't know. You would, you're in California and probably no more so, um,
Speaker 6:well I do know that there's more and more cases going to court and even potentially like, I don't know if they do trial, I would have to ask the attorneys that I know that are, you know, working on these. But I think that it really depends on that, uh, attorney that sat and created that document with, um, the birth parents. I know that there's a lot of birth parents that think that they're contact agreements were filed in court and they never were. Um, and so those are, you can't even do anything about that. So I, I do. There was, there's no standard, like, like proper care in this. It really depends on who that person got connected to. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so that's, it's probably a, uh, across the board and we hope that, so that leads us directly into the, the question about, uh, ethics and ethical adoption practices that both expected parents as well as adoptive parents, uh, are aware of when they're choosing, uh, adoption professionals, be they an adoption agency are an adoption attorney. Katie, let's start with you then. What are some hallmarks of an ethical agency? Our attorney that both pair, uh, both sets of parents, the adoptive and birth are our expected, um, should look for an a when they're choosing. Um, I, for me, first and foremost that an ethical adoption professional believes in providing the expectant parent with her own representation, her own legal representation. Um, it's not required in every state, but it should, I think it should be a standard of practice that she has her own attorney. This is, you know, technically contract law and yet in any other contract, in, in a legal setting, both parties would be provided with their own attorney. And that does not happen in adoption. In fact, expectant parents think that the attorney that they got connected to as their attorney and they really are not there, the adoptive parents attorney. Um, so that's first and foremost for me. Okay. Laura thinks that expected an adoptive parents because of course we want both sides to be looking for ethical, uh, ethical professionals to guide them. So what are some things that they should look at look for?
Speaker 5:I agree with the attorney, um, that the mother is providing an attorney if she'd like one represent her, her interests. Um, I, I agree it is a contract, but also there's two sets of already here, two parties to the, to the contracts if both needs but equal and adequate representation. As far as for me, I, I'm very detail oriented. So when I made my decision, I looked up three different agencies to inner basically interview as far as like, who do I want to place through. And the first one I went to very quickly off of that, uh, she saw my, my belly. I was seven, seven months long and she, um, in the first 15 minute meeting and the only other contact I had with her was maybe a five minute conversation to set up this meeting. Um, she presented me with, with three or four different profiles and almost expected me to make a decision as far as what family I was going to place, a place I've shot into and held extremely pressure and extremely awkward with it all. It's like it, she did not know me. She did not know my story other than the maybe total 20 minutes that she done me. So any kind of rush to make a decision, no matter how far along the mother is, that makes me extremely uncomfortable. And um, as far as my coaching for, uh, expecting mothers out there, make sure that when you walk in that you feel comfortable in confidence, in their ability, um, to hear you out and uh, Oh[inaudible] heed your word and respect your word. Um, and that they respect you and your story. And, um, that would be for the birth mother side or the expense of the other side I should say. And then on the, um, expectant it, um, sorry, the adopted family side that they understand where their funds are going. Um, it is that very expensive process and they need to make sure that, um, you know, they have a procedure in place so when the child is born they need to make sure that the agency knows to put the child on Medicare or Medicaid, Medicaid, whichever it is. I can't keep them straight, but Medicaid and then that there's procedure in place and a policy in place for them to backdate the insurance, everything like that, that they have that the, the post birth, um, procedure down to a Tia. They can walk them through every step of the way before there's even a birth because that was an issue. And, um, with my, with my adoption for unfortunately, however, I will say that my agency has addressed all those issues and everything's good. But when going through it that was really uncomfortable and they felt extremely uncomfortable in a health situation, nobody is such a gut wrenching decision to place and then such a huge decision to adopt that he ever, all the parties should feel comfortable and competent in the ability of the agency.
Speaker 4:Okay. Kelsey, what would you look for with a four? Ethics and ethical, uh, adoption professional being an attorney or a a at an agency?
Speaker 3:I think the most important thing across the board is that they need to be doing more than the bare minimum. And what I mean when I say that is we send these new standards like every day for these ethical agencies. Ethical is like this buzz, we're in adoption now. Everybody wants to seem ethical because that's what adoptive parents are looking for an agency. So agencies will list like, Oh we offer post-placement support on their website and then you get into it and you find out they really don't or they offer three counseling sessions and that's it. So I post placement support is huge, needs to be offered and it needs to be offered several times pre and post. Um, and that can look like support groups. It can look like, um, counseling. And if they don't have the resources to do it in office, then they should for sure be sending it out, send out referrals to places. Um, I separate legal representation is huge for me, but we need more than the bare minimum and that we need more than just their buddy attorney who is just gonna um, you know, explain the terms in favor of the adoptive parents attorney and we need an attorney that's working for her. That's, that is filling the space of a real attorney. Just like in any other situation. I mean there's other little things, but those, to me, those are the main things. Um, and then cost, cost. I really don't want to ever see something more than more than 45,000, like if there's medical issues but like a standard adoption and I'm being generous with the 45,000 cause ideally I want it a lot lower, but I don't, don't want to see those at all.
Speaker 4:I am so thankful that you talk about, well all of them, all of your points. But the um, post adoption counseling and not just for the first month after the, after the birth, uh, it's a lifetime decision and it's so important that the adoption professional community, the adoption industry realizes that birth parents need to have options for counseling long into the adoption because we certainly know that feelings about adoption change and, and they come and they go, I mean your needs come and they go. So anyway, such a good point.
Speaker 5:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:let me remind people that this show is brought to you not only through our underwriters but also through our partners. And our partner agencies are those that believe in our mission of providing unbiased, accurate information pre and post adoption. Uh, and they do more than just, you know, give lip service to it. They actually put their money behind it. And, and that means supporting us in that their support allows us to bring you this show. Some of our wonderful partners include adoptions from the heart. They have built over 6,000 families since 1985 to domestic infant adoption. They work with families across the U S but they're licensed in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Virginia and Connecticut. And we also have Vista Del Mar. They are a licensed nonprofit adoption agency with over 65 years of experience helping to create families. They offer home study only services, but they also offer full service, infant adoption, international adoption and foster to adopt programs.
Speaker 4:I want to thank you so much, uh, for the three birth moms that we've had with us today. Kelsey Vantive, late, uh, Katie Monroe and Laura Blanca. I have truly appreciated your time and your wisdom and your patience in answering what, uh, what may seem like a redundant questions to you or even silly questions. But these are questions that adoptive parents and adoption professionals, uh, should be asking and adoptive parents are asking. So thank you so much for your time and your willingness to, to share. Let me mention that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners, our underwriters. Also keep in mind that the information is general advice to understand how it applies to your specific situation. You need to work with your adoption professional. Thanks for joining us today and I will see you next week.
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