Too Many Goodbyes: How Foster Care Instability Impacts Children

Children in foster care can experience far more than a change in placement. They may lose caregivers, siblings, schools, routines, communities, caseworkers, therapists, and other trusted relationships—sometimes again and again. What does that repeated instability mean for a child’s behavior, sense of safety, and ability to trust?

In this episode, we talk with Rita Soronen, President and CEO of the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, about the impact of foster care instability and what caregivers and child welfare professionals can do to create greater stability and connection. 

We explore why challenging behavior can be a form of communication, how foster and adoptive parents can build safety through predictable routines and promises kept, why children’s voices must be included in permanency decisions, and how child-focused recruitment can help children find lasting families. The conversation also explores the Wendy’s Wonderful Kids model and why understanding a child’s relationships, history, culture, and needs can lead to stronger permanency outcomes.

Transcript

Tracy Whitney 0:01

Welcome to Creating a Family. Talk about adoption, foster care, and kinship care. I'm so glad you're joining us today. We're talking about what repeated instability means for children in foster care, not only moving from home to home, but also losing caregivers, siblings, schools, routines, communities, professionals, and all the other people that they have learned to trust. Our guest today is Rita Storden. She's the president and CEO of the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. For more than 40 years, she has worked on behalf of abused, neglected, and vulnerable children and has led the foundation since 2001. Under her leadership, the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption created Wendy's Wonderful Kids, an evidence-based, child-focused model designed to find permanent families for children who have waited the longest in foster care. Welcome, Rita. We are so honored to have you with us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Tracy, I'm delighted to be with you. Thank you for having

When you hear the phrase “too many goodbyes,” what experiences or children come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

us.

Tracy Whitney 0:55

So when you hear the phrase too many goodbyes, which is part of the title of this episode, what experiences or children come to mind for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, we focus at the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption exclusively on those children who are in foster care and who have been permanently severed from their family of origin. The parental rights have been terminated. So they're waiting for permanency again. So when you think about the journey that those children have experienced, first being removed from their home, then being placed in care, if it was an emergency placement, potentially a very short term, and then being placed again, perhaps moving from school to school, perhaps moving out of their neighborhood and all that they knew. And so they're forced into this situation of almost chronic goodbye. Whether or not they can articulate that's what it is, that's what it is. That loss of family, that loss of neighborhood, that loss potentially of culture, of all that's familiar to them. And that we put those children through those what you call too many goodbyes is what drives sometimes the kinds of behaviors then that we see in foster care, and that ultimate long-term feelings and trauma and the kinds of things that we would want to avoid for any child. So it starts at that very first day of leaving that family, no matter what the circumstance was that brought them into care, they immediately are placed into a goodbye situation.

How would you define stability from a child’s point of view? Can a placement look stable on paper while a child continues to lose caseworkers, therapists, teachers, family contact, or other important relationships?

Tracy Whitney 2:29

So, how would you define stability from the child's point of view? Can placement look stable on paper, but when the child continues to lose caseworkers or therapists or other turnover that's common in child welfare settings, what does that look like for the child?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, stability in child welfare can certainly be a requirement, can be a checklist, but it's not necessarily what the child is feeling. Stability for a child, and we have to all go back and think of what it meant to us as children, right? That then we'll then we'll really connect with that. But at a professional level, is there consistency? Is there a relationship the child can count on? Is there a sense of identity carrying forward, even if that child was removed from their family of origin? Those are all those notions of stability that give a child a sense of comfort, perhaps, and calm and ease. Can I go to the same school that I went to before? So stability isn't just a placement. Stability is that environment around a child and how the adults interact with the child and assure that stability is not just a word, it's it's an emotion, it's a feeling, it's a it's a it's an outcome of child welfare, not just a checklist.

Tracy Whitney 3:46

Yeah.

How can clinical terms such as “placement change,” “disruption,” or “transition” distance adults from what the child is actually experiencing?

Tracy Whitney 3:47

So switching back to the adult perspective, do you feel like terms like placement change or disruption or transition can sometimes distance the adults from what the children are actually experiencing?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Of course, you know, and because we have to articulate what we're doing. It's a complex system. And all of the adults, I think, in the child welfare system, caseworkers and guardians of vitamin judges and and foster parents, they all want to do the right thing, but we have to have a common language that we share among professionals. And so we default to those words like placement stability and trauma-informed care. But what does it really mean to a child if underneath that we're not really our thinking, you know, emotionally thinking about what those terms mean? And is there really placement stability when we think, well, the child's been there for six months, so there must be placement stability? Have we really explored underneath what that child is experiencing, how they're behaving, and what they is their voice being used and articulated as well?

Tracy Whitney 4:48

Yeah.

Children often enter foster care after trauma, separation, grief, or neglect. What can repeated moves and losses add to those earlier experiences, and how might those impacts show up in daily life?

Tracy Whitney 4:49

So when children are moving frequently from foster care to foster care or foster care to adoption, it kind of adds up and piles up on those losses and goodbyes that that we talked about. How do those impacts show up in daily life for these children?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

It can show up in so many ways. And sometimes it's counterintuitive to an adult, but it's so real to the child. This child is at every transition, at every move, at every visit, perhaps from a stranger, even if they're in the same house, we're creating this sense of trauma in a child's life because we've interrupted that notion of stability, that notion of comfort, that notion of ease. Is that adult coming into my house because they're going to move me again? You know, the child doesn't know until something's explained to them. And so I think the result can be behaviors that then too often force a foster family to say, I can't cope with these behaviors. So perhaps this child would be better served in another home. And so we create yet another layer of trauma and perhaps another layer of, of course, another layer of instability for the child. And then the child doesn't necessarily ease into the next environment quickly or as quickly as perhaps the foster parent or the caseworker would like. And it just feeds this unfortunate cycle of potential movements again, or a lack of understanding of what the child is experiencing and how that impacts the behaviors. You know, they might be tempted to run away if they're an older child. They might be aggressive, they might just have have completely backed away from connections, or they may overconnect with strangers, right? So there are so many different kinds of behaviors that are the direct result of this instability, of placement movement, of trauma. And I think it's it's so critical for the adults to understand what's behind the behaviors that that they are seeing and experiencing.

Research describes a painful cycle: trauma and behavioral or mental health needs may increase the risk of a move, and another move may worsen those same needs. How can professionals and caregivers stop treating the child’s behavior as the sole cause and i

Tracy Whitney 6:51

You mentioned that cycle of instability, breeding more instability, but research also shows us that it also can potentially increase the risks of other future unsafe or dangerous behaviors and another move can feed into that cycle of instability, but then also that cycle of increased risks down the road. So how can we as adoption professionals and foster parents and adoptive parents and other caregivers in these children's lives, how can we stop treating the behavior as the sole cause of that ongoing cycle and instead ask what's underneath the behavior or what's um the unmet need that we could step in and break that crisis or that cycle.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

That's exactly it. And I think it's it's taking a shift in thinking on the adult's part. Think of the, don't, don't think of the behavior and what it is, although we have to deal with it, but think of that behavior as communication. The child is desperately trying to communicate with me in the way that they know how. And depending on the age, that's going to be evidenced in different ways. You know, like I said, it could be a child thinking that they're going to run away or a youngster just having trigger anger, um, or or you know, refusing to eat, or or bed wetting, whatever that behavior is, understand that that behavior is communication. It's the child in trying to help adults understand what they're feeling. And they they're not they're not intentionally doing that, but that's the result. And then, you know, think about, you know, okay, there is this behavior. Think back, what was the trigger before that behavior? You know, did I mention perhaps a family member that the child hasn't seen? Or, and not to put blame on the adult, just try and identify what those triggers for the behavior might be so that you can not only either avoid them if possible, deal with them appropriately when they do happen. And then, you know, look around the environment. Is this an environment that might, even though it's a strange home, could it feel familiar to this child? Does it have some things that the child had in their other environment, whether that's a soft toy or a blanket or a book or a bicycle, whatever it is, how can we make this environment comfortable for this child? And that leads to does the child have agency in this home? Does the child have a voice? Can the child say, I really miss my family? And the adult doesn't say, well, you know, I'm sorry about that, but you're here now. Listen to what that child says rather than reacting in a way that doesn't validate the voice of the child. So I think if we just do a little bit of a shift of thinking, and particularly for foster parents who don't know this child, may not have gotten enough information, you know, don't want to cause any further harm, it's that step back and really begin to understand and assess and ask, ask the child, help me understand why you're feeling angry right now. Help me understand that because I know that you're really angry rather than saying, don't be angry.

Tracy Whitney 9:56

Yeah. On a practical note, one of the things that we suggest to particularly new foster parents is to start a little journal and track behaviors and track what led to the behavior, track what the conditions were, you know, was it really hot in the house, or was there a lot of noise in the house, or was it right after they came off the bus and maybe they were just hangry? Um, you know, what are you seeing before you start stepping in to try and change anything? Think about what you're seeing and all the things that you can notice that might lend itself to some patterns. And when we can kind of follow the patterns and be a little bit of a detective that way, it makes it much easier to see what's underneath that behavior.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

That's exactly it. And don't be afraid, excuse me, as a foster parent, to ask the caseworker, I need some help here. This is happening more than one time. Um, you know, don't be afraid to admit that I don't understand this behavior. And hopefully the caseworker, just like you said, has a tip or an idea, like maybe start journalizing with the child what's going on so that you can understand. But but the caseworker is going to have a wealth of information too. And if you don't get that information from the caseworker, you know, push harder and make sure that the supervisor gets involved because foster parents deserve to have that kind of support when there are behaviors they don't understand or they don't feel like they're being responsive in a way that's helpful to the child.

Tracy Whitney 11:19

Yeah. It also helps to be a detective of that child's full file. Start combing through the file and seeing what you can learn about behaviors and things that led up to the behaviors and things that happened after the behaviors that will help you, again, be that bit of a detective. Um, and it's all on behalf of and and advocacy for the child to help them change the behaviors, but because you're meeting the need that's under the behavior.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Exactly. And and I think of it as build your own sort of rapid response team. You know, your first line is the case worker, of course, right? But but get connected with other foster parents. Go to those, you know, when you went to those classes and you connected with folks, call them. Make sure the family that surrounds you understands what's happening and you can call on them as well. So build that your own rapid response team that's very helpful, I think.

Tracy Whitney 12:08

That's great. I like that rapid response team.

Placement changes are sometimes described as unavoidable because a child’s needs are complex. How often is instability also rooted in system conditions or decisions?

Tracy Whitney 12:12

Sometimes placement changes are described as unavoidable because the child's needs are so complex and we understand that that happens. How often is their instability or their experience of instability rooted in the system's conditions or decisions?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Well, yeah, it's it's it's this, it can be a vicious cycle, right? I think one of the challenges that we have in this child welfare system is do we have appropriate foster home placements for children that may have high acuity needs, right? Um, is this the right placement for this child? And if it's not, then we we move them again, or we move them into uh congregate care or institutional care when the behavior isn't the outcome, it's it's the it's the underlying reason and it's the underlying emotion that's there. It's it's it's a signal. And so I think rather than that that rapid movement to placement again, movement again, maybe, maybe harsh outcomes for the child, you know, consequences that they don't understand because they're still trying to deal with the behaviors, and yet there's this strange consequence of, well, you know, then you can't do this or you're going to have to do this. I think we we might create that vicious cycle that that perhaps unintentionally we don't understand. So I think it takes skilled, you know, certainly skilled foster parents, it takes that supportive structure around them, particularly with children that that do have have experienced a lot of trauma and may have a lot of presenting behaviors.

Tracy Whitney 13:44

It also takes time, time invested in getting to know the child, but time invested in yourself, getting to know, you know, your own attachment style, understanding, you know, if this behavior is triggering to me, why? And the first response shouldn't necessarily be, I can't handle this child. The first response can be, what is it going on here that's triggering to me, and how can I regulate myself first before I make any decisions that would negatively impact or unintentionally cause further harm.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Exactly. And I think, you know, try to avoid that that very human need to compare, right? Compare this child to other foster children I've had. Right. Or this child to my biological child that are in the home. Every child is different, but we we we kind of fall into that trap of, well, if you could just be like this, because I've experienced that before with these children, then then things will be okay. And and you're right, it takes a real strong self-assessment and backing up to do that.

Tracy Whitney 14:45

Listeners, I don't want to interrupt too long, but I do want to tell you if you are an adoptive parent, foster parent, kinship caregiver, and you are looking for support and community and connection, similar to what we've been talking about in this interview with Rita, I would love for you to join us over at our Facebook group. You can find us at Facebook.com slash groups slash creating a family. We have just a few questions that we need you to answer in order to vet you through to membership in the group. And then you can join and participate in all the conversations that will help you grow and learn better ways to meet the needs of the children that you're caring for. Now let's go back to the interview with Rita. Thank you.

The first weeks of a placement can be especially vulnerable. What should happen early—before stress becomes a crisis—to help the child and foster family develop safety, trust, and stability?

Tracy Whitney 15:31

So the first few weeks of any placement with a foster child can be very vulnerable for obviously the foster parents, but particularly for the child. So, what should happen early in the new placement before the child's stress becomes a crisis point that would help the child and the foster family develop that safety and trust between them that will lend itself to stability?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah, it's a great question. And I think if if foster parents think of those first few days as foundational, this is a critical time. This is where we're going to set the stage. Of course, things are going to evolve and develop, but how I welcome that child into my home, is it is it warm and predictable? You know, am I making sure that the child has identified space for them? Am I making sure that they have, I've asked them, what kind of food do you like? Um, you know, what are you used to in terms of a bedtime routine? Again, depending on the child's age and and ability to express themselves, but can you very quickly find some consistency that will make that child feel um comfortable or at least as comfortable as possible in a in a new and strange environment? And make sure that that there is frequent contact with the child. And I don't mean being, you know, hovering and overwhelming, but if suddenly, you know, you realize it's been quiet or the child's been up in the room for a while, it's okay to check in and say, I'm just checking in to make sure you've got everything you need. Is there something that I can get for you? And it it's it's okay to be, it's like, you know, in the old days, people used to say, gosh, be careful, you you're gonna spoil your kids. Like you can't, you cannot pay too much attention to children, right? Exactly. The same with with foster children. Don't feel like you need to back away because the child's not being responsive, or they're being quiet, or or they're they're they're ignoring you. Just keep at it in a way that that child will know you're there for them, you're going to be there for them, and and this is going to be a place where you can feel safe and things will be consistent because I know your life has not been consistent for a while.

Tracy Whitney 17:36

There's a couple easy things parents can do to kind of grease the wheels of that. One thing, um, suggestion that the late Dr. Karen Purvis used to offer is to keep cookie dough balls in the freezer ready to bake at any minute. And so if you notice that the child has been quiet for maybe too long, showing up at their bedroom door with a plate of warm cookies greases the wheels unimaginably. But also things like, you know, warm scented candles that are not overwhelming, but will create a sense of calm and peace in the home, whether it's the scent of vanilla for some kids or the scent of lavender, which is calming, things like that that can just create an environment of safety so that you can do the work of safety.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Exactly. And include them. I love that idea. And I've heard that before, of course, of the warm cookies at the door. Or, you know what, say, hey, I've got this cookie dough. Would you like to help me cook make some cookies together? You know, invite them into what they feel are unfamiliar routines in this house. Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 18:38

And that's especially helpful when they're older children or tweens and teens, first of all, because the way to their heart is their stomach. But also working side by side on things tends to open the floodgates a little bit more than face to face. Exactly. Like take them out for ice cream and ride side by side in the car, that kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

And I think with older kids, involve them in what's going on in your life. It's okay to say, you know what, I've I've had a tough day and I've got this problem. I wonder if you have any advice for me, because people are always giving advice to the kids, right? Right. Make them help them understand that that the human condition is one where it's an exchange of of hopefully assistance. Uh, but you know, I think that with a teen in particular sometimes engenders them to, oh, okay, you're not perfect, like everybody said.

Tracy Whitney 19:27

You were right, right, right.

What should foster parents and kinship caregivers reasonably expect from the child’s team—and how can professionals respond when a caregiver says, “We are struggling,” without making the family feel blamed or abandoned?

Tracy Whitney 19:29

So, what should foster parents and kinship caregivers kind of reasonably expect from a child's professional support team? And how can the professionals respond when a caregiver says, we're struggling without making the family feel blamed or abandoned? That's kind of a two-part question.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, and I think, I think that, you know, depending on where you are, I people have had different experiences. At the best level, I think that that foster parents and caregivers should expect very quick response to to an inquiry to to the professional assigned to your case or to your child. You should expect that they have the kinds of information about this child's journey to date that will help you understand where they are now. You should expect that they have ideas and suggestions and resources for you to reach out to. And particularly as we're moving into adoptive families, and perhaps, you know, and and there are behaviors that are perhaps starting to show up before the adoption is finalized or even after the adoption is finalized. They should expect that the professionals with whom they've had contact have have a vast resource of post-permanency connections and resources to continue to deal with the trauma that children experience. Um and then the second part of your question, I'm sorry.

Tracy Whitney 20:48

How can then the professionals then respond when a caregiver reaches out and says, hey, we're struggling?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

It needs to be an immediate response. It needs to be non-judgmental. It's not about you just don't understand what's going on here. It's it's um making sure that this feels like a team approach to what's happening with this child. It's being very respectful and very um appreciative of what a foster parent is going through, particularly if it's a new foster parent, and this is a new situation. They've come in with all the best of intentions, of course, um, but but maybe experiencing something that they hadn't thought about or hadn't been trained on, or it's just different. So I think they they absolutely um need to be first and foremost responsive, communicative, and armed full of resources.

Children and youth are often among the least powerful people in placement and permanency decisions. What does it look like to include their voice early and meaningfully, rather than asking for an opinion after adults have already decided?

Tracy Whitney 21:36

So in the placement world, children and youth are often the least powerful, the the least voiced in in the relationships and in the permanency processes. What does it look like? We've talked a little bit about it already, but what does it look like for these kids usually tweens and teens to Have their voices included meaningfully rather than asking for an opinion after the adults have already decided, which feels so um disingenuous to a kid and they can pick that up right away.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Absolutely. It means everything. It means everything. Look, what again, I take it back, think of yourself. Think of a day at work and someone's telling you, here's what you should do, here's what you need to do, here, why didn't you get this done? As opposed to what ideas do you have for getting this project well? Why would we think that children don't need that same encouragement, that same freedom of voice? And I mean not just with an idea of what do I need, but um, I see that you're really angry. Please help me understand. I welcome your voice to help me understand. And if it's something that I did, I am not going to snap back at you if you tell me, I don't like it when you do the following. You know, so that it becomes a shared mutual respect of voice, but certainly first and foremost on behalf of the child who doesn't feel like they have one. They've been, again, taken away from their family of origin. They've perhaps moved from place to place. No one's asked them, what would you, what, what's your ideal place to be? What's your ideal situation? I might not be able to deliver that, but I'd like to hear what you're thinking right now. It means voice means everything to a child. And and it's not just teens and tweens, although that's most critical for them. But it's it's, you know, eight, nine, and 10-year-olds certainly want to have a voice. And and even younger, they want people to know that when they speak, someone's listening.

Tracy Whitney 23:35

Yeah. Everyone wants to be seen and heard. And so if we can ask them even simple questions like what do you miss the most from living with your mom and dad? And is there maybe a favorite recipe that would make you feel like mom and dad are with us, even if they can't be with us? Simple questions like that. But I think also asking them how do you feel about the relationship you have with your mom and dad? And what can I do to help you make it feel safer or stronger or better? Um giving them that voice, like you said, but also if because many of them aren't used to having a voice and aren't used to having some measure of control over their environment, start really slow and simple with choices. Like would you rather text your mom or would you rather FaceTime your mom? And those kinds of simple choices get them used to being heard and being uh respected for just the inherent dignity that they carry as human beings.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Exactly. Exactly. And I love the one question, what's making you happy today? Yeah. Let's end the day with share something good about the day. You know, and it might be something like that I get to go to bed and quit talking to you.

Tracy Whitney 24:45

Okay, great. That's great. I love that. Um

What does “child-focused recruitment” mean in practice, and how is it different from creating a profile of a child and waiting for a prospective family to respond?

Tracy Whitney 24:55

model that puts many of these ideas into practice is the Dave Thomas Foundation's Wendy's Wonderful Kids. I want to transition a little bit to talk not just about Wendy's Wonderful Kids and the outcomes that it produces, but also what its approach can teach child welfare professionals and foster caregivers about how children should experience permanency work. So one of the phrases that's used quite frequently in the Wendy's Wonderful Kids world is child-focused recruitment. So can you tell us what that means in practice and how it's different from creating a profile of a child and then waiting for a prospective family to respond?

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. And we developed this program as a pilot in 2004, first and foremost, to respond to those children who are in foster care and who are most at risk of aging out of care. So typically children age nine and older, children and siblings, children with special needs, children whose behaviors have developed to such a point that when someone says, Do you want to be adopted? they say, heck no, get me out of this system. I'll be fine on my own, right? Um, and so we looked at what are the existing best practices to deal with this population of children who were aging out of care at 20,000 a year, year over year over year, and who probably did not have a voice in the process of what was happening to them, had been in care for years, had experienced multiple moves. And so what the Wendy's Wonderful Kids model does is really focuses on that child, the child's journey, the child's wishes and dreams, the child's connections, the child's culture, um, the child's extended family, who's around them. And that includes not only biological extended family, but all of those adults that have been in that child's life. And so the recruiter, we call the recruiter, um, who's in charge of this caseload of some of the longest waiting children, does a very prescribed evidence-based model that first and foremost carries a smaller caseload of children. Because if you have 30 or 40 children on your caseload, you can't get to know each child in a way that's critical to find the best family for this child. So a much smaller caseload, 12 to 15 children. But what's behind that is that child-focused notion of spend some time to get to know that child, make constant connections with that child, do a deep dive into their case file and understand all of the adults that have been in the child's life, but all of the journeys that this child has been on. So that you're armed with beginning to know this child in a way that then when you establish a relationship and the child begins to trust you because consistently, when you say, We are going to be visiting with each other on Tuesday at three, you are there every Tuesday at three, or whatever it is that provides that consistency, then the recruiter gets to know this child at a focus level rather than write a website with a description. And then the recruiter works the model in a way that has listened to the child, has done that due diligence, has found extended or other kin or other family members and begins to look at is this the best family for the child, not is this the best child for the family? It turns it on its head a little bit. Right. It makes sure that the focus is on the child. Um, and we want to be responsive. If a family doesn't really, really doesn't think they can handle a child with special needs, of course we're not going to push that notion. But let's make sure we talk about all of the circumstances that this child needs. Will you be able to fit those needs for that child?

What can relatives, former foster parents, teachers, coaches, neighbors, therapists, or a friend’s family reveal that a broad recruitment effort might miss—and how can this reduce additional strangers, rejections, and losses?

Tracy Whitney 28:30

How have you guys seen that deep dive into the child's existing network and their historical context? How have you seen that reduce additional rejections or additional instability or additional loss for the children?

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Significantly. We've seen more than nationally 16,000 permanent placements for these children. And we did a it's not a long-term evaluation, but we did a survey of older youth who were adopted through this program. And not one of those had dissolved, not one of those families had disrupted or dissolved. So we know that we're on the right track, and we know we're on the right track because more than 80% of the families that are matched with these children are people that are already known to the child, either extended family members or like we talked about before, former foster parents, teachers, coaches, you know, anyone that's already been in that child's life that they probably have identified. I can't tell you how many cases that the recruiter has said, you know, there was a note in the file, and one that just still sticks with me. There was a crumpled up piece of paper in the file. And on that was a family member that was identified, but no one had reached out to that family member. And that it was the child that had alerted them to there is this family member, then they found this note in the file. And of course, if if none of those exist for a child, then those wonderful people that have come into the system that say, I would like to adopt a child out of foster care, then we'll work to make sure that that's the best possible match for a child. But we want to try and keep children connected to kin, culture, and community when if at all possible.

Tracy Whitney 30:08

And listeners, if you like the inspiration and joy from reading kids' stories, you should follow the the uh Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption on all of their social media accounts. They share very inspiring stories and bring it home so that it's relatable. And I always walk away from reading those posts going, yeah, I could do that, I could do that. I'm doing it, but I can do that. So um

How do professionals balance the urgency of finding permanency with the need to protect a child’s privacy, dignity, and agency—and avoid moving too quickly toward a match that may not last?

Tracy Whitney 30:38

one of the things that is very common in the world of child welfare professionals is the that sense of urgency. I gotta find a place, I gotta find a place, I gotta find a place. This this kid needs protection, this kid needs safety, this kid needs a good landing place. How do we how do they balance that that urgency of finding some sort of permanency with the need to protect the child's kin, culture, community, and privacy and dignity so that they're not moving too quickly and then maybe finding a match that doesn't end up panning out well.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Exactly, exactly. And you're right, there is a sense of urgency. Every day of childhood in foster care is a day of childhood lost. It just is, no matter how good the circumstances, because behind that, the child is uncertain about what their future looks like. So we want to have a sense of urgency behind it, but it's it's professional urgency, it's realistic urgency. It's not just quick placement for placement's sake. It cannot be that because it's not going to work. And it's certainly for permanency. It can't be, you know, um, clap my hands, it's happened, here's this family, here's this child, and everybody seemed okay. If we haven't done that deep dive into do you understand this child's journey? And you haven't listened to the child that said, but wait, I've got this ant that that I would love to make sure that I've got a connection to, and no one has listened to me about that. Um, and it might take some time to find that at and to make that connection viable. So I think it's it's everything. Urgency is critical. We use that word all the time. You know, there is a sense of urgency because childhood is fleeting, but it can't be urgency at the risk of an adoption or a placement that quickly dissolves and just simply turns into another unnecessary. Trauma. Yeah, and trauma, indeed. Exactly.

Evaluations of Wendy’s Wonderful Kids found particularly strong outcomes for older youth and children with diagnosed mental health needs. What does that tell us about what becomes possible when professionals have the time, training, and focus to understan

Tracy Whitney 32:24

You mentioned earlier that some of the evaluations that you've done on the Wendy's Wonderful Kids program were showing you some great outcomes. One of the outcomes that we noticed in the information is that older youth with diagnosed mental health needs have particularly strong, healthy, robust outcomes. What does that tell us about what becomes possible when professionals have the time and training, such as Wendy's Wonderful Kids offers them?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

That's exactly it. And you know, what what the what our long-term rigorous evaluation not only said that those children with specific mental health needs that this model is used to find a family for are more than three times more likely to find a permanent home. And then just in general, children are up to three times more likely to find a home. And what that says behind it is that due diligence, that that very intense work at making sure that this family understands this child's special need. This family has the capacity to support this child's need. This family has enough information that we could help provide and that we'll work with a caseworker and all the others in the child's community can find the resources to help this child's special need, or we'll make sure that before we finalize this adoption, that all of those things are in place. And so it's not just someone thinking or wishing that they could help a child because we all have great intentions, but if we really don't have the capacity to help a child with special needs, that gets discovered in this mix, I think. And so it really speaks to making sure that professionals in the child welfare world have a deep understanding of what those needs are, have a deep understanding of where, if at all possible, evidence-based resources exist, have an adoption-competent framework when they're working with children, because the dynamics of adoption are different than the dynamics of other kinds of mental health needs that a child who hasn't been through the child welfare system might have. You know, again, understanding those different kinds of trauma. It speaks to all of those things. And I know it puts a heavy burden on the child welfare system, but it's a burden that's critical so that we don't have unintended consequences when we make too quick of a match or an inappropriate match for a child.

Tracy Whitney 34:44

It's certainly a burden worth bearing for the sake of the children.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 34:49

And I think, you know, the other thing that strikes me is that this deep dive, this, you know, due diligence, as you called it, um prevents a child from being labeled, which could then be a label they carry for the rest of their life because they've internalized it to mean something about themselves, or because every caseworker then that follows reads the same label, and this circumvents all of that, prevents all of that.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Exactly. When you think about it, and again, I know some great matches have occurred through things like websites or television programs, or you know, that that promote the face of a child, or the or certainly good adoptions have happened from that. But for those children that don't get matched, that know they've been on a website, that have been on a television program, what are we saying to that child? What is that child internalizing? That you're not good enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough. You know, the child will internalize that and create another layer of um identity challenge of trauma. And so we want to mitigate that and say, we'll celebrate those adoptions that happened that way, but let's think of another way so that we're not unintentionally causing further harm to a child.

Tracy Whitney 36:10

Listeners, if you could please click that follow button wherever you are listening to today's interview, we would so appreciate it. If you have a second to leave us a rating or a review, we would be even more grateful. It helps us build a wider awareness of our work and get it into the ears and the hands of people who need it the most to support the kids that they're serving and raising. Thanks so much. And I'll let you get back to the interview now. So,

What would you want foster parents to understand about the stability they can offer, even when reunification, guardianship, or adoption may eventually move a child from their home?

Tracy Whitney 36:44

switching gears just a little bit, I want to think about what foster parents need to understand about the stability that they offer, even when reunification or guardianship or adoption may eventually move that child out of their home. What are some things that under the Wendy's Wonderful Kids model that you guys are working with, what do you want foster parents to understand about stability?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

That it's everything, that it's everything, right? Um, for for for adults, it's everything. I always take this back to what do you want at the end of the day? You want to go home where someone can say, hey, how was your day?

Tracy Whitney 37:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Or they can say, gosh, you were on that podcast and you say you think you blew it. I bet you didn't, you know, someone who can continue to build you up and and affirm who you are. So it's again, it's it's back to what we talked about earlier. It's not just about placement, it's about understanding that consistency is everything, that stability of feeling, of emotion, of connectivity, of relationships, of where I'm going to school, of what my future looks like, that I can even envision a future is part of stability. So I think it's critical that we think of stability more than that word. You're right, it's what we talked about before too. What year words do we use to try to make these complex notions definable? Stability is much broader than placement. It's about all of those human aspects that we sometimes forget children are experiencing and internalizing and defining their future with. This isn't just a point in time, it's a stage of remembering and growing.

unknown 38:21

Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 38:22

So a lot of what you just said is kind of intangible feeling, sensing type stuff. Help me put some practical feet to that for these foster parents who want to increase the sense of stability in their home, but they need practical ways to do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I think one good way is make a promise and keep it, right? I am going to pick you up every day from school at three o'clock. And the the child may not believe that because that's not what they've experienced before. And you don't break that promise. And when you get there, you say, I told you I was going to be here at three, and I'm so glad that we're we're here together. So that the child begins to count on promises made, are not promises broken. Um, and that's that's huge. So one thing like that, you know, you know, every Saturday we're gonna go to the library. Uh, and if we can't, we're gonna we're gonna understand why before it happens. I'm not just gonna say we're not going today. Whatever that promise is that you can keep, that begins to build that sense of security, that sense of consistency. And that all underlies. So it's those actions speak so much louder than just words.

Tracy Whitney 39:27

Another thing that parents, uh foster parents can do is create predictable, structured routines in their homes on the micro level, around bedtime, around breakfast, around um getting up in the morning, but also kind of on the macro level. This is what a normal week looks like in our home. This is how we ebb and flow. Every Saturday we go to the library, every Sunday we go to church, every Monday we have family movie night, those kinds of things, those regular, maybe not family movie night on a Monday, because if they have to get up early for school, that might be a problem. But you get what I'm saying? Having these regular predictable structures built into parts of the day and the whole day, but also creating traditions and rituals or welcoming the new child into your already existing traditions and rituals that aren't just around holidays, but you know, traditions like I said, family movie night or pizza night or make your own pizza night was always a big hit in this house. So things like that that just create a sense of predictability. Predictability always raises the sense of trust and the sense of safety in a child's heart and mind, never more so than when a kid has not had that predictability before.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Exactly. And I think we frequently get the answer how do you, how do you respond to a foster parent who has to, who for some reason that child has to leave their home and they've grown attached and they've developed these routines and they've become a part of their family. The good news is behind that sorrow and grief that both might feel, that child will have learned a lot about consistency and stability and family and routine and ritual, and they'll take that with them. So if there's any comfort in, for whatever reason a child had to leave a foster home, take comfort in that notion that you've provided an incredible springboard for that child.

Tracy Whitney 41:20

And some of the practical things that you can do when that child leaves, have a little family photo book of things that you guys did together that were happy, meaningful, joyful moments. And the child can then have that little photo book with them to, you know, move forward and look back on and say, this is where I learned about consistency, or this is where I learned that grown-ups always show up, or that grown-ups keep their promises.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Exactly. And and something to keep in mind too, because these children have gone through so much. While you're establishing that consistency, you can't demand necessarily conformity, right? Yeah. The child's going to bring uniqueness to it. And that's okay. And celebrate that uniqueness that comes to the consistency that you're hoping to establish.

Tracy Whitney 42:05

Yeah.

When a foster or adoptive family realizes it is struggling, what should caregivers do early, and what supports must professionals offer before and after permanency so that a child does not experience another abrupt ending?

Tracy Whitney 42:06

So when a foster family or adoptive family realizes that they're struggling, what should they do early and what supports should they ask for from their professionals? Maybe some specific practical examples.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, I think make that call quickly. Um, say, look, all of a sudden, this child seems angry in the morning, doesn't want to go to school, fusses against getting, you know, changed. How do I handle that behavior? Help me understand what's behind the behavior. And you should get from your caseworker some practical tools for saying, you know, how do I talk to this child? How do I help them understand? It's critical. We've got to go to school. That's one of the rules in this house is we go to school. Having said that, here's what we can do at the end of the day when you're done with school. And when you get home, you can put your pajamas on if you'd like to. But for school, we've got to wear, you know, appropriate clothes and we've got to get there on time. So, but but you should be able to get from your caseworker the kinds of ideas because they've dealt with hundreds of families that have gone through these same kinds of things. They should also be able to offer are there more classes that I can take in understanding trauma that children have experienced or the dynamics of abuse and neglect? Are there more things that I can do? And they should be able to offer those classes or link them to areas if it's something on the web or whatever it is that they could, they could that they could do.

Tracy Whitney 43:32

One of the experienced foster parents in our very large online Facebook community once recommended that foster parents ask for a foster parent mentor. So within your foster community, there's probably another foster parent that's you know been there, done that. Um, and you could ask your caseworker to connect you in a way that offers you not just somebody who understands, but maybe somebody who's living it and doing it or has recently lived it and done it. Tangible, real life, practical ways to go about solving some of the dilemmas that make you feel like you're struggling.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

You're absolutely right. And it speaks to earlier when you talked about that, you know, you have to keep that sense of privacy about the child as well. Yeah. Sometimes it feels hard to reach out, right? And make those connections. But hopefully you're right. Your caseworker can help you do that and help you identify whatever boundaries might exist. But do take advantage when you go through those parenting classes or foster care classes. Make those connections with those other people in your class from the from day one.

Tracy Whitney 44:31

Yeah.

Child welfare systems often measure moves and finalizations. What other outcomes tell us whether a child truly experiences stability, safety, and belonging?

Tracy Whitney 44:33

So the traditional child welfare system measures moves and finalizations as part of its outcome process. What other outcomes should we be looking at to help us understand if a child is truly experiencing stability, safety, belonging, et cetera, in their placements?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah, it's embedded in so much of what we've talked about. Does this child now have a sense of future? Are they talking about school net for next year? Do they have connectedness to extended family members if that is allowed, you know, if it's safe for them? Make that effort to make sure that they keep their community around them if at all possible. Have they developed some relationships at school? Relationship is one of those key indicators because it's what we hear from kids who age out of foster care is I didn't have anybody. I, you know, I moved a million times. I didn't have any steady relationships. Are you helping them find where those relationships exist, not just in the foster care home, but outside of that? But but probably that sense of hope that's it that's expressed in so many ways. Talking about tomorrow, talking about when I have a permanent family, talking about making sure that you know the whole sibling conversation, if for whatever reason, and it's scandalous to me that siblings are ever separated, I know. If for ever some reason those siblings are separated, making every possible effort to keep them connected, so that that child is thinking about when we're together, when when my my brother and I get to be together. All of those, again, what you call it sort of soft emotional indicators, but you can read them from that child in what they talk about, in how they approach, I want to sign up for a sport at school, as opposed to I just want to come home and go up to my room.

What is one thing a child welfare professional or caregiver listening to us today can do differently to help a child experience, perhaps for the first time, that the adults in their life will keep showing up?

Tracy Whitney 46:17

So, what is one thing that in light of that conversation that child welfare professionals or caregivers can do differently to help the child that's in their caseload or in their home, perhaps for the first time, know that the adults in their life will keep showing up?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

I think it goes back to that promise. You know, I I know that it's tough for you to be from a caseworker's point of view. I know it's really tough that I had to put you in this family that you don't know.

unknown 46:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

But I promise that not only will I keep in touch with that family and make sure everything's going the way it should, I'm gonna call you at least once a week and I'm gonna check in and I'm gonna hear from you, and I'm not gonna have your foster parent on the line. I'm gonna hear from you, or I'm gonna I'm gonna be there. Um, I think that that helps develop that trust because what children in foster care lose is that trust of adults. They've been abused or neglected potentially, they've moved from home to home, they've had a caseworker switch three or four or five times. They haven't had necessarily that sense of is this what relationships are all about, that it's just ever changing and I can't count on anyone. So make that promise, whatever that promise is, if it's if it's a if it's a conversation, if it's a uh we're gonna go out for um, you know, lunch every Saturday, whatever it is, the caseworker has got to be committed to that because that speaks volumes to what the child will then expect from a foster parent or a permanent home later on.

Tracy Whitney 47:46

And foster parents, look for things that you can make promises about and promises that you can keep and just keep making them. Just keep making them. Even if it seems silly and you know, really minute to you, building that sense of trust through promises made and promises kept will just keep building that child's sense of safety in and build that sense of stability for them.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

And for us, to let a child age out of foster care is the biggest promise broken, because the day that child is removed from their family, our implicit promise to them is we will find you a family. And so that's not the kind of promise that we want to have broken, but it starts at that very, very tiny level too in the day-to-day interactions.

What fuels you to keep doing this work?

Tracy Whitney 48:29

So, Rita, as we're wrapping up here, uh just on a personal note, after all these years of doing this amazing work and supporting the workers and the families and the children, what's something that keeps giving you hope and fuel to keep doing the work?

SPEAKER_01 48:46

It's what you said. It's the stories that we hear every day. I'll tell if I if you have time, I'll tell a quick one.

Tracy Whitney 48:51

Yeah, we love stories.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

This one little guy that has stayed with me forever. Um, he had been in care, I think he was 12, but he had been in care for six years, I think. And he had moved multiple times. Um, and um finally he got on the Wendy's Wonderful Kids caseload. The Wendy's Wonderful Kids recruiter did their work, did some due diligence in getting to know this child who was really very shy. It took a while to establish that relationship. He began to talk about his best friend and his best friend's family, but he didn't really necessarily want them to know his circumstance, so they weren't really keyed into everything that had gone on in his life. The recruiter went ahead and reached out to that family. They didn't realize that he was on the adoption track, they didn't know. And so they began to say, Is this someone who you might think might be someone that could join your family? And they they immediately said, This would be a great idea. Long story short, we get to the courtroom. It's this family that has stepped forward. The child's going to be adopted by this family. He's where the the judge now has to ask a child if they're old enough, what do you think about this? Do you agree to this? Tell me what you are thinking about this process that's going forward. And it took the judge a couple of times to get this young man now to speak to him. But when he finally did and said, What do you think about this family being your forever family? And and the the young man looked up at the judge and said, It's the best because now my best friend is going to be my brother. That's the kind of magic, I think, that keeps us charged about found families or existing families. How do we strengthen them? How do we make sure that the children are first and foremost part of the equation? And then everything else. It's not easy, but it's better.

Tracy Whitney 50:39

It's not easy, but it's better. And it's great for the kids. Thank you so much, Rita. I appreciate your time today. Folks, if you get a chance, go to all of the Dave Thomas for um foundation, the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption um social media accounts and follow them, not just to keep up with the great stories, but also to keep up with what the needs are across the country and see if maybe you can help. Thanks so much for your time and we will catch you again next week.