E145 - Surviving a Cult (part 2 of 2 w/ Gillie Jenkinson)

Gillie is a qualified psychotherapist and counsellor with more than 30 years’ experience. She specialises in working with survivors of coercive, cultic or spiritual abuse, trauma including rape and sexual abuse, thought-reform (brainwashing) and undue influence. She works with former cult members, including those brought up in a cult (second and multi-generation) and those who joined or were recruited (first generation).

Gillie set up Hope Valley Counselling in 2006 after achieving her Masters in Gestalt Psychotherapy. Here she further developed her model for counselling former cult members and survivors of spiritual abuse and undue influence. 

Further resources:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/spirituality-and-psychiatry/pathological-spirituality/0F993FFB842601BF7492EFB708EBA769

 https://www.hopevalleycounselling.com/walking-free-workbook

Interviewed by Dr. Alex Curmi. Dr. Alex is a consultant psychiatrist and a UKCP registered psychotherapist in-training.

If you would like to invite Alex to speak at your organisation please email alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Speaking Enquiry" in the subject line.

Alex is not currently taking on new psychotherapy clients, if you are interested in working with Alex for focused behaviour change coaching , you can email - alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Coaching" in the subject line.

Check out The Thinking Mind Blog on Substack: https://thinkingmindblog.substack.com/p/psychedelics-technology-and-love

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome back. I don't think I can think of anything more frightening than the possibility of being seduced into joining a group like a cult, and having that cult take years off of your life, trapping you, abusing you, and then suddenly finding a way to get outta the cult. Only to find that you have no idea where to start.

How do you rebuild your life? This, of course is a fascinating topic, the topic of cults, but I also think it's one that is very important to speak about. Although cults might not be the most common experience that people can go through, it has been estimated that there can be hundreds of cults operating in the UK at any one point in time.

And therefore, I think it's important in the psychology and mental health world. That we talk about them, have an awareness of them, and have the awareness that humans have a very specific vulnerability to joining groups like this. Cults. Also, they can be called [00:01:00] high demand groups. Joining us again to talk about cults is GI Jenkinson.

She's a psychotherapist and counselor with more than 30 years of experience. She specializes in working with survivors of cults. And she herself has lived the experience of being in a cult and suffering abuse at the hands of a cult. This is part two of my conversation with gi. I would highly recommend you go back to part one, which is episode one four Oh, released about a month ago, and in that podcast we just go over Judy's story, how she became involved in a cult, what that was like for her, the dynamic of the group.

And how she eventually got out. Today in part two, we'll be discussing cults from a more theoretical perspective. How can we define a cult? What's the difference between a cult that can do or harm to people and an organization that's more beneficial for people? Important red flags that might suggest that a [00:02:00] group is likely to be occult?

The importance of critical thinking. Jill's specific psychotherapeutic process and the four stage recovery plan she walks people through when they're recovering from being an occult. Dangers of relapse after you've escaped from occult, the principles of so-called thought reform or brainwashing, and much more.

This is the thinking mind. A podcast all about psychology, psychiatry, mental health therapy, and much more. If you want to check out even more thinking mind content, you can check out our blog on Substack and I'll put a link to that in the description. Once again, thank you very much for listening, and now here's today's conversation with Jill Jenkinson.

Thank you so much for joining me again. You are welcome. Last time we had the opportunity to discuss. A bit about your story, what it was like to be part of a cult in Britain in the 1970s, and there was a difficult story, a story me and the listeners really appreciated that you were able to [00:03:00] share. And of course now we have the opportunity to discuss things from a bit more of a theoretical perspective.

Like what is a cult? How, what should people know about them, and a bit about your therapeutic process as well. To start, it would be really helpful to get your definition of a cult. How, how should people define cults? Well, there are a number of definitions, but, you know, basically a cult is an organization which it, it always has some kind of hierarchy.

Um, often there's one leader, often there's a, a, a board, like a governing body or a board of leaders. Some groups are still highly influenced by the founder, even if the founder is like five generations away. So, so this sort of control kind of percolates down through the system. There are very often layers of leadership, especially in the larger [00:04:00] groups.

Um, there, there's. A real micromanaging of life, and I hope that came through telling my story. You know, what you eat, what you wear, who you have sex with, or, or not allowed to have sex. Um. Really, really minute detail of your life that that's controlled. And then a cult will control who you have contact with.

And you often hear of families losing their. Children to a cult and, uh, that their child's being cut off from them and from the inside, you know, that same experience. We call it dispensing of existence, Robert j Lifton's, eight components of thought reform. And, um, so, uh, you know, this, this sort of outsiders don't have any truth or [00:05:00] anything to offer us.

How do you think people can distinguish a cult from perhaps a different kind of organization that might be immersive, perhaps in the way that a cult is, but isn't necessarily pathological, isn't necessarily gonna cause harm to that individual? Well, I tend to think of organizations on a continuum, and I think there's, there can be, look, there's nothing that's actually fully safe.

In life, you can do a psychotherapy training and feel harmed by it. You can do, you can go to a church and feel harmed by it. Or you can do a psychotherapy training and it can be really life enhancing and very, very good and have a great career from it. And the same with church, the same with political following.

So it, it, it needs to be safe enough pinching, Winnie, cots good enough, mothering thing. It needs to be safe enough so that, [00:06:00] um, there's a level of safety. What's the difference? Probably you can leave. If you can't leave. If you don't check before you go in that you can get out, then you are in trouble. And by your definition, I got the sense as well that control is quite a persistent theme.

And even from your story, what it sounded like was control for control's sake, not necessarily control. For any particular aim, because you can imagine in a group, you know, you might need to control the actions of members for a purpose. Like in the military, you have a chain of command to achieve a strategic objective.

But what's really struck me about your story and the stories of other cults survivors, I've heard. That it's a, it's control for its own, own sake to, to break the will of the participant. Actually, it's both, I think for many groups because one other part of the definition really is there's a [00:07:00] mission, there's a, there's a reason for that group, um, existing, and often they're very look.

People join these groups because they sound good. You know, it sounds great to, you know, we're gonna save the planet, or we're going to save mankind, or we're going to have better health, or we're going to have better mental health. So there's often that mixture. Actually. I think they're very often mission driven.

It depends, probably a lot on the leader. If the leader's very narcissistic and once. The, the followers, the one term that was used by a guy called Zablocki was deployable agents. And the thing is, you get somebody into this very dependent, malleable state of mind within a thought reform system, which is a sort of.

That there are eight components of thought reform, which all kind of work together to [00:08:00] come create this total control. And um, then you've got some people to actually. Uh, do your work for you. And one example is the Jesus army. So I was involved in the documentary inside the cult of the Jesus army, which is on BBCI player, and it's a very good example of the leader.

Was a Christian leader, but he was also a very good businessman and over 40 years this small church, which it was a church and it, it was a sort of Christian charismatic group, Bible-based, he. Accrued 120 million pounds. I think that's the correct amount. Now most churches are trying to pay for the roof, you know, and they can't get the money in.

This guy really raped in the money, and part of the reason was is he used people as really it's modern day [00:09:00] slavery. The people who've left now, and the documentary makes this very clear, is that they have no pension. They have no home. They did jobs and they gave all they, they worked for free. Without payment for the cult.

But then they asked the government for their benefits, and all of those benefits were paid into the cult. It's an absolute shower, it's disgraceful. Um, and, and that's, that was for a mission. So they were sold a mission. We are here to create this kind of alternative society. And they did in many ways.

Unfortunately there was abuse in that setting. Do you agree with the notion that some people might be more vulnerable to joining an organization than the, an organization like this than others? And if so, what might predispose someone to being more vulnerable? So the, the literature and the research shows that [00:10:00] vulnerability is, is not so much in personality but in life experiences.

So, so. Look, are we vulnerable when we go for therapy? Yes, we are. We are the one who's looking for help and there are therapists who become cult leaders. Um, and are we vulnerable when we're seeking spiritual? Enlightenment or to have a relationship with a God or whatever, I suppose we are. So I often, you know, people talk about deceptive recruitment techniques that you think you are going into something that's okay and then you find that it's not, and, but.

I use this analogy, a frog. If you throw it into hot water, you can imagine it would jump out if it could, but if it stays in the hot, if it's just heated up slowly, it's, it's not going [00:11:00] to, it's not gonna be able to jump out. And I think there's a lot of that. Then you have groups like mine, which evolved into a cult.

So they weren't things that weren't a cult to start with. Um, so there's many scenarios that kind of create vulnerability. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes. And I suppose irrespective of individual responsibility, individual vulnerabilities feels like there is something innately human about being seduced by a charismatic leader.

Notions of truth, notions of certainty, notions of metaphysical certainty, knowing what, what the, what life is all about feels like on some level, we're all kind of vulnerable to being part of a group that can define our reality so neatly and so tightly, whereas most of the time, you know, by ourselves, especially if you're, if a person's not religious, we're kind of adrift in a lot of ways.[00:12:00] 

I mean that that is true. And then you just have to remember as well that there are many, many people coming forward now who were born into the cults. They are really speaking up. I mean, there's a real pushback now. And they're the ones who did not choose to go into this. And again, in the Jesus Army documentary, um, that's really clearly stated, you know, I didn't ask for this shit.

But I'm left with it. You know, I was born into this and we have to remember them. And then the multi-generation ones who, who are born into these very old groups that their great grandparents joined, and the families just being dependent on the group right down the generations. Do we know anything about.

People being born into cults in terms of are they, are they worse of, is it harder for them to recover? Is it harder for them to claim a sense of agency or mental [00:13:00] independence if they're born into, born into a cult as opposed to joining a cult as an adult? There's a big distinction because. They have no experience from be before.

So for me, I had experience from before the group, I can pull on something that's not the cult, but for them, they got nothing to pull on. And there was a piece of research done by Dr. Lois Kendall, who actually evidenced in her PhD research that. That second and multi-generation really struggle harder. And I would say I've seen that in the therapy work.

I think I'll talk about my walking free model, but uh, I've seen that it's very helpful, but it needs particular application because the issues around identity. Like just thinking of identity in a very simple way. Look, it's a very complex subject. People who listen to this podcast are going to all have their own [00:14:00] versions of theories about identity, and the identity has changed you.

You have to be a particular. You have to do and be a particular person to belong to a particular group. You can't just go in there and say, oh, well I'm just gonna do my own thing, because that doesn't match the vision and the mission of the leader. And, and that gets squashed and it gets, you know, I think it gets really crushed and overlaid with a cultic interjected pseudo identity.

I think we interject an identity. And that was certainly true for me. And I think for second and multi-generation, they grow up with the cult as their identity mostly. I mean, everybody has seeds or kernels of themselves, but often they say they don't. They don't feel as if they have anything of themselves.

And so part of the work with them is helping [00:15:00] them say, well, actually. You were, it's very simple, but you were good at art and Fred Blogs wasn't, you know, that's something that identifies something of you that's not theirs and that they can be like, okay. Um, what gives you pleasure? Well, what do you like pink?

Or do you like blue or do you like going to horror films, or do you like going to see romantic film? Like really simple, basic kind of ways of trying to help them to see actually there is something of, of me that's different to others. Um, and it, it strikes me that that might be a useful part of the definition of a cult.

Like if, if someone's trying to decide. Is an organization good for me or bad? One litmus test, if you like, might be, is this group crushing or suppressing or discouraging the identity of the participants or not? If you can tell at the face, at the [00:16:00] front door, that's the thing, is the, the front face of it in the Bible talks about wolves in sheep's clothing.

You know, it's that sort of great sort of metaphor or analogy. And, and the organization is often a wolf in sheep's clothing, yoga groups. You know, I, I know of people who've ended up through their yoga classes. Look, it doesn't happen that much, but it does happen and they've ended up giving all their money to the group.

And I've heard two stories where the partner within a family completely separated from their children and their partner and were completely swallowed up into the cult, convinced they were doing the right thing. So that might be another red flag that if the cult is encouraging you to cut off from all outsiders, then surely that's something to be aware of and, and to be afraid of.

Run for your life. If, if it's hard to leave, run [00:17:00] for your life. And if it's, if they're encouraging you, telling you your children, um, are, are evil or sinful or a bad, a negative influence on the world, run for your life and get away. Because it's not worth the toll that it takes on everybody. And one of the other things in my definition is, uh, yeah, in engenders an us and them mentality, fear and rejection of the world outside the group, but then causes psychological harm to members, their families, the community, including children, you know, um.

They're very dangerous. It's very dangerous. What, what do you think is the biggest psychological harm that can be caused by a cause? There's so many, you know, anxiety or, um, depression or paranoia or. What you could just carry [00:18:00] on listing forever. But what I like to say is that you, when you are working with someone from these settings, you need to consider the context in which these mental health issues, if we call them that or these harms has occurred.

Because I am not a fearful person now, I'm really not. But after I left the cult and we continue going to churches, I was terrified and I was terrified in the cult. And I put that down to my interjected. Kind of pseudo cultic identity. And so in the work with these clients, we need to be looking at the, the context and the source of these things.

'cause they may not actually be mental health issues. Um, right. We, I co-authored a chapter with Dr. Nicola Crowley in a, a [00:19:00] book called Spirituality and Psychiatry, which is a textbook for psychiatrists, and we talked about that in there. Uh, pathological spirituality was the name of the, the chapter and just sort of list.

You can list all these things, but actually a lot of them, um, are actually not really embedded in that person's actual. Personality or identity or however, wherever you would place it. Uh, I'm interested in this idea of pathological spirituality. Can you tell me more about it? Well, I think we just, we, we wanted to kind of acknowledge that.

That spirituality can be life enhancing for some people. Spirituality, faith, religion, whatever is for some people very life enhancing. Meditation may be life enhancing, but then you get this pathological side where, um, you know, the cults, high demand abuse [00:20:00] of groups and the leadership come in with their agenda and start micromanaging people's lives for their own ends.

And it might be sexual end, it might be financial end. You know, it's all sorts. I tend to believe that most people have some sort of spiritual drive, or at the very least a drive for meaning, transcendence, et cetera. So it sounds like you're saying these groups can hijack our desire for, for greater meaning in order to achieve whatever their aims happen to be.

Absolutely. And I think even. People who've been in political cults may not fully agree with this, but I think there is an element always of a hijacking spirituality and therapeutic, um, that often there are therapeutic themes within these cults saying, we'll make you better, we'll heal you, we'll, um, transform you.

Something's gonna [00:21:00] move and happen within you, but actually it doesn't. One of my PhD participants said something really interesting. I wish I had the quote here, but she said, more or less I. Went into the cult with all my baggage, all the stuff I needed to sort out. I went into it thinking they'd sort it out.

And then this person was, was what we call a castaway. She was thrown outta the group because she wasn't complying or something, and she said, when I got through the door, metaphorically speaking, there was all my baggage sitting on the doorstep. So first generation, she had to come out. She then had to pick up all this stuff and start the process of healing herself.

'cause none of this had been healed. And then she had this on top of it. It occur to me that, I guess two things that might be good inoculation against the cult would be things like. Critical thinking and also [00:22:00] agency. So an ability to discern, you know, what is the reality around me? What do I want? How do I move towards what I want?

Do you worry that, you know, even putting cloud aside for a second, we don't really, society doesn't encourage a whole lot of critical thinking or agency. Is that something you worry about? Yeah, I mean, definitely. And I think myself and a lot of others who work in this field very specifically talk about going into schools.

One of my colleagues, uh, who left a cult to self, she did a whole course on critical thinking and was saying, really, we need to take this into the schools. The idea of debating, you know, the public schools. And a lot of public school people, boarding school people end up in cults as well. So it hasn't been completely.

They haven't been immune to it, but you know, sort of debating societies, that idea that you don't just take things at face value, you debate it, but [00:23:00] even then they get through that. It's, it's tricky. It's very tricky. Do we have any idea how many cults are currently operative within the uk? I mean, you know, I think it's hard to really quantify the Cult Information Center, which is now closed.

Used to say not that long ago, there were about 500 kind of listed cults in the uk. Similar numbers, sort of prorata to America. It's not an American issue, it's a UK issue. It's an international issue. And when I was at the University of Nottingham and telling people what my research was. Do you know how many people say, oh yes, we have a cult, or, my cousin was in a cult, or I nearly joined a cult.

Or like, it's fascinating, you know, and you think actually it's way more prevalent than you realize. And, mm-hmm. And the point I made, you know, that my, the house that, that I was in, in [00:24:00] the, in the community was just an ordinary terrorist house, you know, and no one around knew. They probably thought we were weird, truthfully, but they didn't know what was happening in there.

So who knows, who knows how many domestic abuse relationships there are for the nature of them. They're hidden. Yes. They can seem to. Uh, like totally normal at, at, at first glance, and yet perfect things could be happening behind closed doors. And that was true at the Jesus Army. I'm mentioning that because if your listeners are interested in seeing a bit more about cults and those who are in the uk, um, I know there're probably others who can't access it yet, but you know, it really is a clear example of what is a cult and how it evolved.

And the leader, do you ever get pushback from, from cults? Because you speak out against them. Do you ever get threatening emails or anything like that? I don't, because I don't name cults publicly. The [00:25:00] only cults I'll name is, is if they're in the public domain, like the Jesus Army has folded. And so they're a good example and I can name them.

Um, I do know. I did an internship in America at Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center twice. I went there in 1999 and 2008, and they were the only mental health facility in the world who worked with former members. And that's really where I cut my teeth and learnt a, a model that I've built on. And they would get.

They had a particular cult, I won't mention that's very Harris's people a great deal. They, the cult had hired a helicopter farm where the center was in the middle of the woods, the boonies. They called it the Americans. They'll understand that term. And, um, they found the place and they would send people with placards and all sorts.

They had to put gates so out. [00:26:00] Um, around the lodge. They had a, a facility, the lodge, and. The office so they would speak out. So yeah, cults are very litigious and it, it's important. I teach my students who I teach, uh, on the certificate who do learning my model, be really careful who you name. It occurs to me thinking out loud the, the source of biggest religion I can think of.

That seems to have a lot of cult-like properties to me seems like Scientology. Would you be willing to comment or not? Whether you think Scientology is a cult? Uh, let me just put it like this. Lots of people have alleged that Scientology is a cult, and yes, I've worked with people who've said it is a cult.

Fair enough. I'm interested in this idea of thought reform, which you've talked about and thought reform for the listeners is, it sounds like brainwashing. What [00:27:00] are the main sort of principles of thought reform? So thought reform is a theory that was developed through research with Korean and Chinese prisoners of war by Dr.

Robert j Lifton. He's written the most, um. His work, he's just died actually, and he's worth looking up for anyone who's a psychiatrist or a psychologist or whatever. He did research into the Nazi doctors, into Hiroshima and, and then into cults, but also into the Korean and Chinese prisoners of war and. He developed this idea of, well, through his research he, he identified these eight components.

And the first one is milieu control, which is control of the environment, physical energy, what you wear, what you eat, and then control of communication outside of the group. And this is a key thing [00:28:00] as well, and came through my story, I hope. Um. Commu sort of cutting off communication within oneself. Mm-hmm.

So that kind of inner dialogue gets suppressed doubt. Oh, suppress it quick. You know, that kind of thing. And then you have mystical manipulation is the second component, which is. Is kind of talking about the leadership really elevating themselves, coming over as a prophet or the answer to the world's problems.

That kind of heuristic, uh, heuristic hubris that, uh, narcissism that, that they have, that they have the answers. They can magic things like Cy Barbara would say he could. Uh, manifest gold watches in midair. Well, so can Darren Brown, I dunno. Darren Brown's a stage really entertaining stage hypnotist and who kind of debunked [00:29:00] a lot of this stuff.

And, but within that there's also altered states of consciousness and Fritz Pearls actually said that confluence being cofluent or merged within a group or relationship is a state of trance that we are not. Actually processing in a normal way because we've lost our, I think in gal terms, we've lost our teeth.

Our ability to discern, to chew, discern, to, to have critical thinking. We've become dependent. So these altered states of consciousness can also be elicited through endless meditation, through endless. Probably sex as well. And probably also, um, singing hymns endlessly. Like in our, uh, one of, kind of in the community, you would just be singing the same chorus over and over and you're kind of like lulled into a hypnotic trance and then you just [00:30:00] literally drinking, taking everything that's said to you.

You are not debating it. You are just taking it in. Then there's sacred science, which is the belief system. And that the, the reason he used the science word is 'cause it's like the T big T truth. This is the truth. This is how we see the world. This is true. There's no other way of seeing it. Black and white thinking.

And then there's, um, doctrine over person where the doctrine is way more important than the individual. You know, the individual doesn't really matter. So for me, the doctrine, like being beaten for sin, that's doctrine over person. You know, the fact that that's really not going to be helpful for anybody.

But, but they, they need to follow the doctrine. Then there's a demand for purity as defined by the group. So my group defined [00:31:00] purity in terms of religious sin, that sort of thing. But it may be, um. Like within a therapeutic group, it might be mental purity. You need to be very healthy as they define it, which isn't actually what it is.

And then in response to the demand for purity comes confession and confession goes beyond the normal legal or therapeutic. Um. Sort of manifestation of confession to a fact to, so I confessed when I got beaten and then I ended up being punished for that. So they, I, the purity was demanded. I freaked out and confessed, maybe it's me that's sinning, and then I got punished.

So confession can also be reiterating negative interjects negative things we believe about ourselves, and then [00:32:00] loading the language, which I'd mentioned the language is loaded in such a way as it's a cliched thought stopping language. So it's really tricky when somebody sees a client who is from a cult and they don't understand.

That they may be talking about completely different things. The word might be the same, but actually it's a whole different world and it sets off a real big trigger, right? So for example, in S Scientology, they'll often call someone outside of Scientology who they disagree with a quote unquote suppressive person.

So that sounds like an example of loading the language. Exactly. Because no one else knows what that means. I mean, if someone said that to me, I think. I wonder what that, but that is correct. And then the last one, I think I've got them all is, uh, dispensing of existence. So, um, Lifton said, you know, it can be rel rendered, [00:33:00] sort of altruistic in that, like that, that thing of.

The, the suicide bombers render literally dying dispensing of someone's existence as being something, you know, that will, they'll, they'll go to Nirvana or wherever it was they were going, which ties in with meliore control. The, the. Kind of closing the borders of the group dispensing of the existence of outsiders.

They don't count. They don't know we are not gonna learn from them. But also it then happens also on micro levels within the cult. So, I mean, my existence was dispensed with, you know, so often you don't count, you are a woman, you know, it's happening all, all the time. Hearing those principles of thought reform, it's pretty scary.

It strikes me that they would be pretty effective. Do you think that they, these kinds of principles can also be present in some combinations in just one-on-one [00:34:00] abusive relationships that abusers can, I would imagine unconsciously use principles like this to coerce and control. Absolutely. Yes. And you know, it, it's coercive control.

You know, if you look at it from another, um, direction, and if you look at the, which I'm sure a lot of people have the, the definition of coercive control. Um. All, many of these things are in there, you know, monitoring people's phones, withholding money, like so much can happen within a one-on-one. And sometimes I have worked with people in a one-on-one cult.

That has, does have a, can occasionally have this religious element and, and therefore takes it slightly beyond coercive control into really being a, fully a one-on-one cult. But they, they're very, it's very much [00:35:00] tied up together. Now you're the founder of Hope Valley Counseling, and part of what you guys do is help people recover after they've been part of a cult.

How do people find you typically? Well, the Internet's good, isn't it? I guess what I'm wondering is, is there a common story that people come to you with? I mean, yes. You know it, it's often, people have been out for a very long time. They've had lots of therapy. Therapists, sorry, therapists. They haven't helped because they don't know what the client's talking about.

And then with first generation, occasionally they've been, you know, to therapists who then starts talking about their childhood. The, the client's gone to talk about the cult, but if they have a psychoanalytic bent, they want to talk about why you joined the cold. Well, one of my participants in my PhD said.

It was like pulling the rugger from under her [00:36:00] feet because, you know, she was trying to re, after 19 years of being in a cult, she was trying to rebuild her relationship with her parents, who she'd been separated from, and then the therapist started talking about what did your parents do to cause you to join the cult and blaming the parents.

Whereas look that that can happen later. And if you want, I can mention the phases of recovery, but you know, that's not the first step to, to working with these people. Because actually however flawed their childhood may have been, that's may maybe the only foundation of identity that that they have that they need to reclaim first.

Exactly. And actually what they need to do first is to understand the dynamics of the cult. And if I can I mention quickly the phases. This came outta my PhD and it's very simple. And the, the [00:37:00] first phase is the need to leave physically. You need to get out, if you can possibly get out, get away as far as you can.

Do you ever have clients approach you when they're still in the call? Occasionally I have people, so the ex Jehovah's Witnesses call it, uh, physically in. Mentally out pmo, pmo, physically and mentally out. They're just starting to leave. So it's complex, but the simple, look at it, the cartoon version is leave and then, and if you're in a domestic abuse relationship, you need to leave.

Because you are gonna just continue being brainwashed, continue being harmed. Then phase two is the need to understand psychologically, and that's where my model fits my book, walking free. All of the psychoeducational work fits in phase two. Understand what happened to you. [00:38:00] Identify what belongs to the cultic interjected identity and what belongs to your authentic identities, what I call it, using gal feel.

Then what was your identity within the group? What? What can you identify that actually was you? What was you that had to be very compliant and I became very compliant. As I said, you know, I really lost myself and losing my family also meant that I lost so much of myself Then. We look at who are you now post-Cold.

And it's very simple. And we keep going back to the worksheets throughout the, the, this phase of therapy. Like if something comes up and they say, oh, I really loved going to the football match. I'm like, yes, let's stick that on the sheet. You loved going to the football match you. I don't like going to football matches.

And sometimes I'll reflect. Back, back to [00:39:00] them and say, look, this is different. We are different. Let's, let's capture those things. But what we are doing is really. Looking at what's an ingen and an interject is a belief or behavior that, you know, we've swallowed whole and we haven't chewed over and it's sitting in our system and it's causing distress.

So we look at all that. We look at trauma theory, we look at thought reform. We go through thought reform in in real. Detail and by the time they finish the workbook. I have a shortened version I use in therapy of my book because, which is what the book started with. It was first of all this recovery workbook and then I wrote up into a book.

But, um, it's very effective. The feedback is, is very positive for me and also for the therapists who use it that I've trained, which is very encouraging. That's [00:40:00] fascinating. So it sounds like you're trying to help the client develop anchor points of things that reflect their values, like I love football.

I hate politics. You know, trying to get them to use their strong emotions as important signals about who they are as a person. Something like that. I mean, it's probably simpler than that, partly because emo, the whole thing of emotions is very complex for former members. Therapists are taught to go, and how do you feel about that?

What you'll get is dissociation or terror. Because they've been taught within the thought reform system and within the milieu control to suppress their emotions and their thoughts, and so it's a delicate balance of bringing. Certain psychoed, psychoeducational, psychological theories to them that are very relevant and, and then [00:41:00] helping them to chew those over to think, does this apply to me, doesn't it?

Was it a cult? Wasn't it a cult? So I'm never telling them this happened to you. It's always. For them to kind of chew over. And that's phase two. Phase three is what we do as therapists, what we learn on our psychotherapy trainings. Once the person understands what belongs to the cult, what belongs to me?

Do I understand it enough to now move into the phase where I can then process the trauma process, the feelings, process anxiety? Oh gosh. Is it anxiety? It's actually a traumatic trigger actually. It's the loaded language that's triggering me actually. I can, I can challenge the triggers. I can ground myself, actually, I don't have to be tangled up in that anymore.

I can move forward in my life. Um, and then phase [00:42:00] four is recognizing that we are recovered enough to get on with our life. Wow. Okay. So it's like phase, phase one is leaving. Phase two is starting to distinguish your identity from the cult identity. Phase three is more typical psychotherapy, staff processing difficult emotions, traumas, gaining emotional literacy.

Then phase four is recognition that you can now sort of continue to live your life. Do I have that right? That's right. It, it's really understanding and uh, you know, obviously I can't show you the book 'cause we're talking, but it, it has in it those. Those different worksheets. I've called them milestones 'cause I based the book on a roadmap, an actual map that we drew to show the process of recovery.

Um, and look, not everything will apply to everyone and not everyone will like every single thing, but it, it's an attempt [00:43:00] to, to really encapsulate all the things that I've heard over the years. And I'm sure it varies for everyone, but how long typically might it take for someone to get from stage one through to four?

It does really vary. It probably depends on the level of trauma and you know, what happened to them within the cult. Like often there's sexual abuse and it depends whether they're second or first generation. The phases create a focus for therapy. That's what it is. It's a focus. What do you focus on in these?

That's not to say you don't process emotions as. As you go through phase two, I mean, you do, obviously you have to, but, but it's not, you are not there saying, how do you feel about that? The feelings may come up, they may not, and that makes it more grounding for them with the shorter version of the, the workbook that can be done in maybe 20 hours.

Sometimes I'll do an [00:44:00] intensive with people. Uh, sometimes I did two weeks, uh, someone came from Australia. We did two weeks. Somebody else, I did two weeks. That's when I had more time. Um, but sometimes I'll do a long weekend and we'll go through the workbook. I've just done a five day workshop with therapists, with lived experience to teach them the model, but they experienced it for themselves.

As a client, and then I'm gonna teach them in the next sections how to use the model. It's very effective. It, it really shifts people. If a person is trying to recover from being part of a cult and they have the choice, they have the option. Do you think immersive treatments. Two week retreats. Do you think they're better?

Do you think they have better outcomes? For some people it's not right. For some, some people need a very slow, steady pace and some people [00:45:00] have the resilience or they've done enough work on themselves in some ways that they're then ready. So it really needs to be, um. Kind of it, it needs to be individually placed, but we have run recovery workshops for a group of people.

Uh, and that was also very infective. Life goes on, shit still happens. People struggle with things, but they get that phase two information that then can create a bit more of a base for them as they go forward in life. Do you think cult survivors are vulnerable to relapse? Is that something people should be aware of, that just because someone's escaped a cult, it doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to go going back into one?

Absolutely. We call it cult hopping. And very often you hear, and this is why it's so essential that therapists learn about this stuff because these [00:46:00] people, me included, these people, um, you know, go from one abusive setting into another because they, they. They don't recognize the dynamics. They haven't understood what happened to them.

And so they can often, people will end up in a, an abusive relationship when they leave a cult. Honestly, it happens so often. Do you, this is a bit, this is a bit of a loaded question, uh, but I feel inclined to ask it. Do you, do you worry that there seem to be cult-like aspects to a lot of our culture, to our politics emerging that.

Even in the facets of life that most people engage with on some level. There are aspects that are indoctrinating or coercive or controlling. There are elements, we know there are elements in politics. We won't go into it all, but, uh, and [00:47:00] conspiracy theories and whose conspiracy theories someone else's truth and.

Um, misinformation and that sort of thing. I think the thing about thought reform is I thi I see it as a machine. It, it's a system. Um, and there can be elements of that system within different settings, but it's not, I, what I don't want to do is, um, what's the word, dissolve, um, water down. The enormity of what a cult is for someone who's fully been in a cult.

Because yes, there are elements, but if I, I remember someone saying to me. When I started my PhD, this person said to me, well, aren't all church leaders, cult leaders? That's the common refrain. Like, aren't all religions cults, et cetera? Yeah, but you know, you're like, they [00:48:00] clearly have no nuance in this or understanding.

Of course, not all leaders are cult leaders. All church leaders are called leaders. Um, you know, because as I say, it just waters down and makes it ridiculous. I mean, many leaders, religious, non-religious leaders of organizations have the wellbeing of the individuals in their group or organization in mind.

And I, I guess if we know what defines a cult, we know what. Certainly that wanting the, the real wellbeing and the thriving of the people in your organization is clearly not what a cult is about typically. And people make mistakes, you know, and no organization. We said before about the sort of continuum, you know, there can be a healthy organization that harms some people 'cause that person is particularly vulnerable.

Um. In a particular way, you know, or somebody may mishandle them or somebody comes into that [00:49:00] organization who's very controlling and, and the main leadership are like, Ugh, I've heard that happening with, you know, or not quite a normal, healthy church. And then the youth leader comes in and starts controlling everybody, telling them they mustn't have sex and, and they're like, ah.

You know, we, we miss, we, we, we've employed the wrong person and then they have to repair it, but they do repair it, and that's the difference. You've trained as a Gestalt psychotherapist, and that's part of my training as well. I guess what's, what's cool about Gestalt for helping people survive cults is al helps people feel into that sense of who am I distinct from another person, and how do I form a relationship with another person that's healthy?

Which is obviously very helpful because in a cult, you're, you're being confluent, geal term for, you're kind of enmeshed with, with the group and therefore you, it's hard for you to distinguish yourself [00:50:00] from the people around you as a, as a sovereign person. I love that. See for me. Look, we're all human beings who come into training as therapists with our own stuff.

And so we have to deal with our stuff at the same time, and hopefully we do. And um. Having been cofluent and having been a good girl and always having to do what I'm told, it was a re it person centered wouldn't have worked for me, be be because there wasn't enough of a presence of the therapist there.

And so that. Distinguishing me from you and me from my client. And that's what I was saying earlier when I'll say, oh, well I don't like football. That that is actually defining my boundaries and giving them a sense. Actually, I'm different to you and it's okay. I can be different. We can, I can hear about the football, but don't ask me to go 'cause I really don't want to.

[00:51:00] Yeah, I guess. I guess person incentive therapy requires the client to have. A reasonably robust sense of self to start. That's what I've always thought. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, I, I don't know. I have, I have studied it a long time ago when I did my diploma in pastoral counseling. Um. But it, you know, I, I've loved gal and I'm sorry it's not so, not so popular here in the UK now.

There's mu many less courses and it is actually a fantastic approach and it was a pushback to psychoanalysis and you know, somebody telling the client. You know, just, which is a, again, a cartoon version, but that sort of feeling of interpretation and always going back to childhood. And it's much more in the here and now gal and which is a much more modern idea of, um, mindfulness as elements of Buddhism in there.

Do, do you think the [00:52:00] NHS. Is doing enough to support people who have survived cults or to help them get out? No, in big letters. Do you know, for the first time ever, somebody's just contacted me from a um, NHS Trust saying they want to make provision for people who are leaving these. Situations and WW could they do my certificate?

And I've said the thing is for the certificate, it's for people with lived experience. Do you know? It cuts out so much discussion. Having somebody like myself who's been through a cult, who's trained as a therapist and then who wants to work with them because they get it. They know the depth of control.

And I mean, I have trained, uh, other therapists and I do, and I will, I'll do another training next year, but, and just ordinary therapy just isn't enough. It really isn't [00:53:00] enough. In, in an ideal world, would you envision that the NHS would have something like a National Cult Survivors clinic, similar to the way we have a national gambling addiction clinic, do you think if you are a policymaker, is that the kind of service you would envision?

It would be amazing to have that. Well, hopefully some policy makers are listening to this and they've been informed. We're out of time. Gi it's been wonderful to have you back. I feel like I learned so much that I didn't know and I feel that should I ever, you know, encounter any of these issues in my practice, I feel I'm that much more prepared to do so.

Thank you very much for coming back on. I will put a number of the online resources you've shared in the description. So that, um, if anyone has been affected by these issues, they have a place to start. Thank you so much for joining me again. It's been such a pleasure and I've really enjoyed our conversation.