Katherine Halpin had a lifetime of failure and disappointment. A look in the mirror revealed the source of her problems. So she swallowed hard and got busy changing her attitudes and adopting new habits. Her story of personal transformation will inspire anyone - in personal or business life - who struggles to "get over the hump."
Hosts: Jack Heald & Matthew Thornton
Guest: Katherine Halpin
Mentioned in the show:
Planner Pads
Alignment for Success
Respond Not React Playbook
Katherine Halpin had a lifetime of failure and disappointment. A look in the mirror revealed the source of her problems. So she swallowed hard and got busy changing her attitudes and adopting new habits. Her story of personal transformation will inspire anyone - in personal or business life - who struggles to "get over the hump."
Hosts: Jack Heald & Matthew Thornton
Guest: Katherine Halpin
Mentioned in the show:
Planner Pads
Alignment for Success
Respond Not React Playbook
Well, welcome back everybody. This is the Cult Your Brand podcast. I'm your host Jack Heald, and here's my cohost, Matthew Thornton. Hey Matthew.
Matthew T.:That sounded really professional. That was awesome.
:It's because I'm a professional.
Matthew T.:No, you did like a looking like a booming sort of cheerful announcer voice will.
Jack Heald:Thank you. I, I, I appreciate you noticing. Anyway. Hi. Okay, so we've got a cool guest with us today. We're, we're going to try to keep this on. That's something resembling a professional basis. Here for with us on the Cult Your Brand podcast is Katherine Halpin who is the founder and CEO of the Halpin companies. Katherine welcome to the show.
Katherine H.:Thank you, Jack. I've had always had so much respect for you and learn so much from you. So it's a real honor and a privilege to be here today.
Jack Heald:Well, see, it's good to have you here too. Now I like to start these shows out then pretty much the same way. Finding out who we're talking to and why we're talking to them. Um, so, um, tell us real quickly, who is Catherine helping and tell us about the helping companies and what.
Katherine H.:Okay. Okay. Well who I am is, I'm someone who's been around the block. I started my career at a very early age and my dad's CPA firm in Vicksburg, Mississippi, that's on the river, don't, you know, and the reason that I started my career, so
Jack Heald:perfect. Excellent. That's pretty good.
Katherine H.:Yes. Well, I'll slip in and out of it all, um, afternoon. But I, when I was about, well, the first words I learned as a child were, um, six you a high ball. So that's what my, that's what my parents were focusing on with cocktail hour. And so when I was about five, I had three younger siblings already and I put my hands on my hips in my mom's kitchen and I said to myself, somebody has got to make a few decisions around here. And so I put myself, I put myself in charge of logistics, just trying to get us to school on time, trying to get us a church on time. And oldest daughter, yes, the oldest child syndrome. So, uh, because I demonstrated so much ability to bring order to chaos, um, my dad said to me when I was only eight or nine, he said to me, hey, um, you could come to the office with me on Saturday morning. And so I started my work career very early and I of course couldn't do a whole lot of things at eight or nine years old. I operated the microfish machine, but by the time I was 12 years old, he had taught me how to do data entry into his computer. And by the time I was 15, I was a key player in his CPA firm and I was doing bank reconciliations and getting the work ready to go into the computer and um, doing some simple tax returns. And so by the time I was able to escape from being an indentured servants were when I was a junior in college, I had a lot of work experience. But because I had all that work experience, I took a lot of baggage with me. And so I was kind of the crazy maker in all the different work environments that I worked in. I was always asking the right questions because my values are around continuous improvement and process improvement and how can we make things better, faster, smarter? How can we be more inclusive and more transparent?
Jack Heald:That's okay. I'm good. I'm good. I'm going to stop you right there. Not because I'm going to to stop. I want you to pause. Okay. But you know those words that you just spoke are such, they're such buzz words in American business and I know from talking to you that for you, there's actual substance behind those words. So I'm really excited to hear the details there. Okay. Carry on.
Katherine H.:So it was asking the right questions, the questions that needed to be asked. But because I was bringing all this baggage with me, that was, I was very off putting, especially do you have I reported to, it didn't matter if I was in tax or audit or consulting, it didn't matter if I worked for a man or a woman because of that baggage with my dad. I, um, had a constant conversation in my head about everything that my supervisor, manager or partner, you know, whoever was over me, um, they could come into my cubicle or my office and they could say, hey, we're thinking about doing this project this way. And I would say completely inauthentically. I would say, oh, that's a great idea. And then in my head I would say, you idiot. And so I had all this baggage and it took me till I was 35 years old to connect the dots because of what, in the 80s. In 1980s I was gonna write a book about how to build your wealth through severance packages. Cause I was always getting fired.
Jack Heald:One issue, I was such a workhorse and I don't think anybody's ever written that book. Matthew, Matthew, make a note of that. We've got another book opportunity here. Get rich by being fired. Right?
Katherine H.:People would pay me to go away because I was a workhorse and I was smart and I would took so much initiative and took too much initiative. So there was no real reason for them to fire me except that that my boss didn't feel safe. It didn't feel comfortable with me because of that you idiot thing. And I really think the world's divided into two kinds of people. People like me that are having that kind of conversation all day. And then the people, like some people, not any of the three of us of course, but some people in the world have a conversation all day going on something like, oh my God, I shouldn't have said that. It was so stupid. Why did I say that? And so, um, those conversations are severely limiting. So, so I became a CPA. I finished my degree in Dallas once I was able to escape from Mississippi and I finished my degree and then I got my CPA license and I pretty much did everything if CPA could do. And I wasn't very good at any of it because I'm a people person. And so when I was 30, 35 years old, just which actually just the other day I, um, I, uh, I heard about this new field of business coaching and synchronistically I heard about where you could go and be trained to be a business coach. And so I told my spouse, I'm going to be a business coach. And she said, well, that's all well and good, but you've gotta keep your day job. And so of course I did for a year and a half, but, but then, um, I did become a business coach, um, coaches, micro, small micro sized business owners and on the side on Saturday mornings at the coffee plantation at the Biltmore. And then, um, I went full time in January of 1997. And within six months I became a facilitator because I was getting bigger clients, people with 50 employees or 150 employees. And I would say to those business leaders, I would say these are complicated issues and you should not be making this decision in a vacuum. Let's call a meeting with you and all your people, your key people and, and I'll facilitate that meeting and then y'all can come up with a decision that'll have everybody included and have everybody's input and we'll think about the potential unintended consequences cause everybody will be as a table. So for the last 24 years, that's how what I've been doing is, um, well actually it was 24 since I started my business. So 22 years, um, that I've been full time. I've been facilitating. And what I didn't know was that when you bring people together and just turned 35 the other day. So you started this business when you were 11. Okay. No, I really did start it when I was 35 in the first year and a half. I, I mean, it's just part time because I didn't know if I could make a living doing this, but, but, um, I've been really fortunate because I'm somebody, I'm an example of somebody who found their niche. I love everybody you can, you can send me to basement of a building to meet with a snarky person, somebody that hasn't seen the light of day and you know, 20 years. And if I have 45 minutes or an hour with that guy, I can um, come back and I can tell you, you know, what his strengths are and what role he be better suited for so that he wouldn't be so darn snarky.
Speaker 5:How much of that do you attribute to being from the south?
Katherine H.:Quite a bit. Thank you, Matthew for being so steep. You know, I just learned how to build rapport and I learned how to earn people's trust and I learned how to make conversation first and foremost. I, believe it or not, I was painfully shy as a child. And this was something that was really important to my mother, that I would learn these things. And so even though she wasn't really big on the parenting, she was very hyperfocused on my social skills. So yes, you're right.
Speaker 5:Well this is something that's kind of, I don't know if it's becoming a recurring thing. This is only the third one of these that we've done. But you've already mentioned a few of your formative sort of modes like that. You were shy and you know, we had this baggage and these, these kinds of things in that, thanks. Sometimes it seems like the people that are really real are the most likable and if you're open you can open up other people like
Katherine H.:exactly. That's what I say. Authenticity fosters authenticity. Vulnerability fosters vulnerability. So I tell people my story, I say, Hey, do you mind if I just take a minute and introduce myself? And I tell him some of that about the baggage and then they just tell me all kinds of stuff they should not tell me. You just open them up. Yeah, Matthew Percy in that.
Jack Heald:So this, this very naturally sets the table for the kinds of things that, that we like to highlight on this show. And kind of ex the exploration that we like to do. Culture, how you build a strong culture, how you maintain a strong culture, the kinds of behaviors that, that make cultures resilient. And of course we also like to talk about the things that, that tear it down, the destroy it so that there are things that we do, we avoid. So I want to, I just want to kind of, um, you know, set the table here for you about, um, when you, when somebody brings you into their company. Um, how do you, how do you approach the work that you do to help, um, optimize the business, which I know is, it's more than than dollars and cents. Um, talk about, talk about your work and the kinds of of cultural issues that you face and how you resolve them.
Katherine H.:Sure. Well, first of all, I try not to use that word culture. I try to use the phrase work environments because my, in my experience of decision makers that might bring me in or kind of, I'm not receptive to that term culture. They want to delegate that. They want to delegate that to the HR people. They don't really want to get involved. They don't want to get their hands dirty. So I talk about creating work environments and um, I did not know this when I started in, uh, 1995 or even 1987 when I went full time. But what I'm learning quickly is when you get the right people in the right roles and you create the kind of work environment that I've been able to help people do it, it helps a company grow two to three x. So I've taken an$8 million company up to$25 million. I've taken up a$1 million company that's$3 million. Um, and kind of give us some stories, you know, concepts are what really resonates with human beings, these stories. Right? Well, um, I got brought in, um, to for succession planning to accompany with, um, about a 80 employees. Uh, the CFO brought me in and introduced me to the founder because I'm, the CFO could see that the founder was still bringing in 80% of the work even though it was a 25 year old company. And, and one of the other, um, uh, leaders had gone to a workshop where they had, um, talked about selling your company to your employees. And so they had started down this path before they met me, a set of bonusing their key employees and then offering them to buy equity in the company with that bonus money. And so they had about 22 people that own like 0.0, zero, zero 5% of their company and that, so that all happened before they met me. And when the CFO brought me in, um, for the succession planning and exit planning, um, a couple of things happened. I learned that the founder, the reason he'd been so successful, grown it to about about a$10 million company at that point, um, was because he's very intuitive. He would have never used that term. He didn't know he was intuitive. He didn't know. He just thought everybody had the same skill level, but he would, he would sit down five, a breakfast as a week and five lunches a week. He would sit down either with perspective clients or former clients or current clients, and he would ask them questions, you know, what, what are you envisioning for the next 18 months, you know, around this sort of thing, that sort of thing. And, um, he just intuitively knew how to help them, had to ask them questions and then whatever promise problems arose, he could help solve those problems through the services that his company could provide. And that's how he had grown into a$10 million company. So I said, well, how often do you meet with these 22 people that own some equity in your company? He said, well, I'll never meet with them. They're idiots. Why would I meet with them and said, so Bob, you gotta meet with them. And um, so he started meeting with them, was 22 of them total. So he had his administrative assistant put 11 on, on one Friday afternoon, and the other 11 on the following Friday afternoon. Well of course you can't meet with 11 people in one afternoon. No, that's called Jesus and the disciples. Right. And um, so people were lined up down the hall waiting for their meeting with Bob and it was quite disastrous. But he got enough frequency and enough consistency that within 90 days, six of the 20 to uh, middle managers, six of the 22 had wonderful job opportunities in places like Taleo, Ohio. They had legitimate reasons why they were selecting out like their spouse got a promotion across the country or are they wanting to be closer to family or they're going to go to work for one of the company's customers. It was all the Gitelman. It was all very, I made perfect sense. But I believe that they self selected out because Bob was more consistent in kind of holding them accountable and he made the three of us look like a fill avant. I mean he was not having any kind of crucial conversations with people or, or you know, he was, he never was using that word accountability, but it was simply that consistency. He kind of accelerated the timeframes and he was, you know, giving them, he was involving them more in his other discussions. So this was giving them more stuff on their, on their plate. So, uh, so six self-selected out quickly and then over the next year, two people came and came to him and said, Bob, you know, once said, you know, I should've never been in a leadership role and horrible leader. I'm horrible manager. Can I take a step, a sideways step in the company and can I just be like a senior technical expert in these two or three areas? And pops said, perfect, that's perfect. And then shortly thereafter, another person came and said, you know, Bob, I'm not really happy or successful in this job. I was happy I was more successful when I was a project manager. Can I take a step back? Or I had never heard of anybody asking if they could take a step backwards in their job. But that's what, yes. And so that left 14 of these middle managers and those people grew Bob's company from about 10 million to about 30 million. So, um, this sort of thing happens over and over and over. And so it's all about getting the right people in the right roles based on people's strengths. Cause see those younger people were more technologically advanced. They, they, um, were really frankly, um,[inaudible]
Jack Heald:more, you know, aware of their own strengths. Bob didn't really have any sense of how he was just kind of like by accident that he built. Isn't that funny that that somebody's that intuitive with a, uh, with a set of clients could be so oblivious to his own employees?
Katherine H.:Oh, so I mean it was never right. Yes. Sad, pitiful, pitiful, pitiful. And, and um, so that was one story. I've got dozens and dozens, so I named that program the step up or step out program and I t every time I see Bob and I, we still stay in touch. I say, Hey Bob, you did a great job in venting a step up or step out program. And all it is is where the leader, he was so gracious, he would say to these guys, you know, I'm so sorry I haven't been meeting with you regularly before, but you know, starting today I'm going to meet with you as regular as we can make this work and, and I really want to support you. So he took responsibility. You know, in our culture society today, everybody's pointing the finger at somebody else. So it was so shocking when somebody said, oh, I'm so sorry. It's my fault that you haven't been more successful. I haven't been meeting with you properly. But starting today and, and by the way, let's put our heads together and see how you can be more successful with this project. Cause he did have a lot of expertise and a lot of wisdom. Sure. Yeah. So that's one story.
Jack Heald:So you're, you're, I like to try to tease out, well what the common factors are both in both in my guests but also in the, the techniques that they use to help create strong cultures and that, and I'm not sure how to get there right now. So I'm just going to ask you some questions about you. What is it that you think, what qualities do you have either that are innate, that or talents or maybe that you've developed that allow you to get through in, in so many different situations and by get through, I mean deliver a message that maybe somebody wasn't open to before. How are you able to do that? With
Katherine H.:all that baggage? I had to, uh, develop a series of habits that allowed me to feel everyday life. Like t I w I was constantly feeling overwhelmed cause as a kid I had always been feeling overwhelmed cause I was asking and that was being asked to take on an adult role and I was just a little kid and then I was being asked to be an employee and I was just a, you know, young teenager. So I had this history of feeling overwhelmed. So I had to develop practices that would help me get out of that overwhelm, feel centered and grounded, feel like I was on top of my game and feel like I was proactive and not always being a reactive cause with my dad, I was always in a reactionary mode. And so I have a body of work. Um, I have an ebook in addition to my book, I haven't ebook called the respond, not react playbook. And because I do those practices every morning with some of those practices, well there's nine of them. And the first one I don't, it doesn't apply to me, um, necessarily early in the morning, but it's to get places early to arrive early. And you know this from working with, you know, cultures, um, in corporate America today, that the quality of meetings has just gone to hell in a hand basket, in my opinion. It's because they eventually the smart phone. So there's not an agenda that nobody has a clear purpose for the meeting. So if you arrive early to a meeting, it gives you a chance to think about all that and think about what's the purpose of the meeting, what role do I need to play? Am I the decision maker or am I just going to be here to brief the decision maker? You know, have we been meeting for a long time and how can we bring this to closure? Or how can we move this forward? So the first habit is just to arrive early and then it gives you a chance. If you're in a corporate environment where people are coming to you, you don't have to get out and drive somewhere. It gives you chances to regulate your liquids and have a little snack and, and make a note about what did you just promise people. And more importantly, what did those people promise you? Because we're not holding people accountable anymore. And, um, it's cause when we're rushing from meeting to meeting and nobody's making a note about, oh, you know, Billy sue, that she would get this to me by Thursday at five o'clock.
Jack Heald:Okay, I know, I know this is true. I know it's true, but I will also confess the last time I was actually part of corporate America was over six years ago. Um, and that was, that was the foray that convinced me I had absolutely I was not wired for that kind of life. I remember feeling those things like we waste so bloody time. Um, and it's getting worse is what you're telling me
Katherine H.:and I think it's getting worse. And so if you can arrive early, you can give yourself a chance to think about that and think about, uh, how to make those meetings more purposeful and more meaningful. And so that's habit number one of the nine habits. And then the, the second habit is to do a brain dump. So this is sort of like your to do list but on steroids.
Jack Heald:So this is, this is self care we're dealing with here, right?
Katherine H.:Right. Self-Management, I call it, it's all self care, but it's a, it, it allows you to self manage better and cause you're going to get into reactive mode. The question is how long are you going to stay there? And I was in reactive mode. You know from the age of 15 to the age of 35 that's too long. And my career. So the voice damaging as well. Brain damage from that. I had physical illnesses as a related that related to that stress. So the second one is to do the brain dump and you know, put down all your personal stuff, your community, family stuff, not just your work stuff. People tend to just focus on the work and then they look up one day they don't have a family cause they've been so overly hyperfocused on word. Yes and I, I use a tool and I don't get any kind of commission on this, but that my favorite tool is a Maine manual system. I learned that my dad's CPA firm, if you can't use a manual system that no amount of technological assistance or systems is going to work. So I use something called a planner pad. It's called 20 it's cost 29 95 and the website is planner pads.com and it gives me a one week you'd have sure that one shows up on the planner, peds, puro planner, pets.com and until then it gives me a chance to look at my week at a glance. The calendars that to do is a big buckets that can be commitments I have. So, so that's a brain dump. The third habit is just to make sure your calendar is accurate and nowadays we are sending each other invitations all the time. So that's pretty accurate. But I take the time every morning to cause because I work with executives, my counters changing all day every day and they're bumping me or rescheduling me. So every morning I look at my phone where my electronic calendars and I compare it to what I wrote down on Monday morning just to see what know what's, what has changed, make sure I'm clear about what I have on my calendar that day. And then this fourth step is really powerful and this is where your listeners can start to create white space on their calendar. And we all need more white space. So I call this four-step a commitments review and it's where you just scan your calendar, scroll through the calendar, scroll through the brain dump, and you start to ask yourself, do I really have a commitment to serve on this committee or this team? Or do I really have a commitment? Is this even in alignment with our strategic plan anymore, this project that I'm working on or, or, um, developing this person, you know, do we need to just, you know, put him on the step up or step out program and stop investing so much in developing him. So it gives you a chance to, you know, ask yourself those questions or who would be better to head up this project than me? Who's better suited with their strengths and their experience in dealing with over the last couple months realizing how much I'm doing that I, I need to be offloading to. Right, right. And so this commitments revealed productive since I've done that, let me tell you, yes you did, you get weight and you started getting some white space on your calendar to think strategically. And um, and then the fifth one is to formally prepare for meetings. You know, when you're scrolling your calendar, you can see, oh, it's two o'clock this afternoon and I've got this meeting. I better prepare an agendas in Alma, type at the top of the agenda, the purpose of the meeting. So, um, you can now you have some time on your way. You have that white space, you can turn it into making your meetings so much more productive so you don't have to have so darn many meetings. And um, and then the sixth one is what I call project work time. So project work time is the work that you normally do, say between, you know, 7:30 PM and 11:00 PM or 4:00 AM and 6:00 AM just around the fringes. It's not, it's work, but you're not getting it done, say between 7:30 AM and 5:30 PM because your time is spent either in these unproductive meetings or or putting out fires or whatever because you're not strategic. So I tried to get people to schedule that project, work time in their work hours because in my experience with me, when I was working all those long hours as a CPA, my judgment was impaired. It was no different than if I had been an alcoholic. I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I thought everything was urgent and I was the best person to do everything. Not Good. Not Smart.
Speaker 5:So how wait, how does that compare to an alcoholic thing for a friend? Judge, we'll be telling them paired you. You just can't really think strategically. You can't be smart. You can't operate in a smart way. Interesting. Yeah. When you're working those nights and weekends, if you don't work nights and weekends and you delegate a lot, can you be an alcoholic and get away with it very radically? Yes. That's theoretically what I'm saying is yes. And then my hat
Katherine H.:knife habit or what I call strategic think time. And this habit is what got me out of Mississippi and it's what got me out of my failed CPA career. And um, I have just three of them. But if you can use it for anything. So the first one is a problem saw because we all have a problem with, you know, a challenge of the day we need to solve. And wouldn't it be great if we could solve at once and for all. So when start, you know, um, you know, coming back tomorrow and the other one that said delegate more effectively, people don't like delegating cause they get disappointed, but cause reasons they get disappointed is because people don't know what success looks like. They haven't taken the time to think strategically about how, you know, who, who should is a perfect person to do this task or this project and how can I help them be successful? And then the ninth habit is what I call creative tension. Think time. And Peterson gay is a Peterson. Gay is a very noted, um, scholar and he says it's a gap between our and where we want to be, whether it's with our business or our career, a family or our hells anything at all. And um, so I say we all need time on a regular basis to think about, okay, what are those gaps and uh, what, uh, what can I do to close them? And that's how I built my business in those early years. I would write about my revenue and what, you know, what I want my revenue to be, what does it now, how can I close those gaps and how many hours a week am I working and how many hours a week do I want to work? And what said variants and how could I close that gap? So that's the creative tension in time. So those are my nine habits, but they really work when people can be fairly consistently. Course you can't be a hundred percent consistent because life gets in the way. But when you can be fairly consistent, then you can, uh, get out of that reactionary mode. And, and when I, you know, Orient People to this concept, they're a first, sometimes a little resistant. And I say, well, it doesn't matter to me, but when you're in reactionary mode, someone else is controlling your destiny. You're not in control of your own destiny. Like, you know, think of Katherine as a CPA. I was never in control of my own destiny. So that's what motivates people to want to use these practices. So what I'm hearing is, yes, these tactics will, will help you achieve something. I want to abstract, I want to back up one layer here. Sure. And, and find out, um, what you achieve. Yeah. But you know, the being able to apply tactics, um, that's pretty obvious. But oftentimes, um, you know, if you have perfect, if you, if you perfectly execute, um, say you're, you're shooting a bow and arrow. If your technique is perfect, but you're pointed in the wrong thing, you're still going to hit the target.
Speaker 5:Whereas it seems like what I'm not, I don't want to interrupt. It seems like some of these would be like the thighmaster or the Ab roller or the, some of these products that you just have to use them[inaudible] any of them were, any of them will work. Whatever works for you, whatever you're going to use, pick that and and do, if you do it all the time, it'll work because you're being active in some way. Basically that's the whole thing is it doesn't matter if it's an ab roller or a thighmaster. If you're doing it on a every day at work, it's not. It's hard. It's not because of the design or because of the, the magic of whatever the product is. It's because you're doing something active a little bit every day and if you'd thought that you'll have results. I don't know if that's where you were going with the Jack, but it seems like remotely. Yeah, well one of those things that if you do this, it w what I would imagine is you people, people have a lot of resistance to doing it. They buy it and it sits in the, you know, they do it for a week and then it sits in a corner of the office or whatever. So they might, they might like the idea and then they just don't do it because of resistance or whatever, you know?
Katherine H.:Well, this is one thing, um, when I tell people in, because this is my own experience too, when you know, you get a cold or the flu and you don't get out of bed for a few days or you just done not in your normal habits, inequity, work maybe, and um, just don't feel well or you're traveling. So you are of course gonna stop doing it, whether it's the Ab roller or these nine tactics. But when you have done these for a while, you miss them. You miss that feeling of being on top of your game. So they, I say they call your name.
Jack Heald:Okay, now here's, here's what I'm thinking. Yeah. The human physiology is built in such a way that when we perceive ourselves as making progress toward a goal that we, that we think is worthwhile, we get a dopamine rush. And it is the dopamine that keeps us moving forward that keeps us moving toward that goal. And what you've identified here is, is nine different tactics. Any one of which, or any combination will help to help you to move an inch or a foot or a mile closer to your goal. So now let's back up. People call you in because they're not getting done what they want to get done. My question is, do you, do you occasionally or often or frequently or maybe all the time, run into people who are, who don't, haven't clearly defined what it is they want to get done?
Katherine H.:Oh, of course. Of course. That's why the thing time I, I'm so passionate about that because I see that all the time. Jack,
Jack Heald:I'm going to, I'm going to ask a deeper question now. What's the common factor with people who, who don't know where they want to go?
Katherine H.:Well, um, is there a commonality underlying it? Well, I think the most, uh, prevalent went in is, uh, you know, it used to be everybody would to make more money. They want to have a corporate job and they want to make more money. But now I think it's, um, and I work with some of these young, uh, entrepreneurs where they want to build something and sell it and then be able to cash out and retire or take that money and invest in two or three more companies down the road. So, um, so I think when people have too much focus on the financial aspects, then, um, you know, then they can, um, kind of lose themselves. I think that's the common denominator.
Jack Heald:Surely think they know where they're going, but, but they don't.
Katherine H.:Right. Cause they don't, they, they think they know what's going to be most important to them, but they don't know what's most important to them. And they have to discover that over time.
Jack Heald:Theory is that no one knows what they want and they don't know how to get it. And no one's making any rational decisions at all. And
Katherine H.:Yeah. Well that's pretty much sums it up, right. So,
Jack Heald:so one of the, one of the driving, um, components of, of what I study in, in my business called your brand is, is this belief every human being, every single one of us has a compelling need to get the four big questions answered. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going and who am I? And until we get those questions answered for ourselves, um, quite frankly, we end up w what's the old saying? You're either the captain of your own ship or a passenger on somebody else's. Um, and so, so what I've, Eh, my, my research has shown that when we create for ourselves and for, for the whatever organization, we're a part of answers to those questions. That is what, that's, that is the very fabric of a strong culture of a strong society, of a strong company. Now, what I'm hearing, and I, and I, I just like to hear your feedback on this. What I'm hearing is that the leaders that you deal with often are not able to articulate the, their own personal answers to those questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? And who am I
Katherine H.:comment on that? Well, you know, um, it goes back to that dopamine. Um, does, uh Huh. Oh, it's all, it's all, um, a physiological response. So I think people, um, especially executives, my experience is that, you know, they've invested so much in getting into those big executive roles that they haven't had a lot of time to think strategically about what they want in their family or their children, their spouse, their quality of life. That in my experience, they paid too high a price. What I would say is too high a price for that level of success. And so I have to really introduce him to that whole concept of thinking strategically and articulating to themselves what do they want so they can then negotiate expectations with their colleagues and get what they want. One of my clients, big CEO,
Jack Heald:that's a, where am I going answer or am I answering
Katherine H.:right, right. I had a client who's retired now but multibillion dollar company multi-billion, and he had grown that company to that size. And, um, he loved if he was here today, he would say, ah, I love Catherine's concepts of taking that strategic think time because it gave them a chance to think about what he wanted and then go back and negotiate that.
Jack Heald:Well, what do people, is there like a common, um, underlying pattern or theme to what people figure out that they really want?
Katherine H.:Let me think about that. Uh, well I think the pattern or the theme is giving themselves a time to think strategically. Getting off of that hamster cage and maybe being able to sit on them.
Jack Heald:What is, what are the answers they come up with?
Katherine H.:Oh, well everybody wants higher quality of life, more meaningful relationships. Uh, you know, uh, you know, to not put their health at risk, to really be able to really listen to people and okay, um, you know, have strong connections.
Jack Heald:Isn't that interesting that even, even when the bottom line is the bottom line, there's a goal beyond that?
Katherine H.:Yes. Yes, yes.
Jack Heald:I believe there is. You know, Matthew's Matthew, um, his day job is a night job. He's the, he's the front man for a rock. And roll band.
Katherine H.:Oh, how fun is that, Matthew? Yeah.
Jack Heald:And um, you know, one of the fascinating things to me is the experience that we have communally. When we, when we gather together in a concert to listen to music, Matthew's able to recreate this on an almost on a nightly basis to one degree or another. I'm in a corral, we sing an entirely different kind of music and, uh, and every now and then we create these moments together, both as a, both as a choir and choir, an audience where we're, we are transported out of ourselves into a space that's, um, um, it's transcendent. It's been on space and time. It's very ephemeral. But, you know, I, I think that's something that we're all after. I think it's that it's that sense of meaning that you're talking about.
Katherine H.:Right?
Jack Heald:So, you know, let's, let's maybe step back and think about what's common between an experience in a concert
Speaker 5:where for just that briefest of moments, every body is unified. I don't know a better way to describe it. I mean, Matthew, you know, you're the guy who stack. Yes, yes. There's such a, there's a little bit of a surrender. I can only play about 60 to 70% of the song and the listener has to meet me in the middle. So there's some effort. It's a, it's a weird kind of effort because it's a little, a little bit of an effort to surrender. So to let go of whatever it is that you're doing or whatever it is that you're talking about or whatever is that you're concerned with for the day you leave and try to check that out the door. But even if it's just checking it out of yourself for, for the duration of a three or four minute song where you can just be in whatever, you know, people call it flow state, that's one of my favorites where you're, you're gone to yourself or you don't realize that you're a person that you exist, you're completely lost in then whatever that frequency is or whatever that, you know, whatever that song is. And so it's a, it's a very strange thing to try to explain, but it's also, um, something that's common to everybody, but it's the, it's the death of the ego. Like first half of your life you're supposed to, or first, you know, maybe by the end of college you're supposed to not care what other people think about you and you accept yourself, right? And then the next third of your life, you're supposed to, to get out of that and not care about yourself at all, and, and get rid of the, you know, sort of the death of the ego. And then I'm not sure what the third, third is because I haven't gotten it yet. I'm in the middle of the care. I don't care what people think, but I'm also, I do have an attachment to my ego, which means I'm not good in meetings because my opinion is important to me. Right? And so I'm in, I'm in the second phase where I'm trying to not care so much about what I think and who I am and stuff. Um, although I'm madly in love with myself and I, I think, uh, that that's maybe a good step, but it's also not where I want to end up in a meeting. That's what I mean. In a meeting, the death of the self means that you're contributing and you come to a solution that's not about you. You're not trying to take credit or, or talk. Mostly meetings are people want to talk. How about themselves kind of about their ideas. And so that seems like you're in a concert. That's just to get back to the other thing. It seems like in a concert there's a lot of letting go of the self and being in the moment with each other. Really important thing for, you know, I don't know how that relates.
Katherine H.:Well, it relates beautifully. So see people aren't in the moment, people are listening to what's being said so that they can respond and yes to this one. Upmanship so they're not, they're not listening. They're not in the moment like they are with the music. They're their positioning and in their, uh, trying to, um,
Speaker 5:you know, they're listening like a critic would like, yeah, look, a critic goes to your show and they're trying to pick apart like, well, they didn't do that right? And they're, that transition wasn't that good. That song wasn't as good as the other ones or whatever. But a real audience member is just along for the ride and they're there. Hopefully you're enjoying enjoying the, the sort of Ab and flow and the whole thing, but you listen critically, then you're, it's going to be a mess because you're not, you're not listening to understand, you're listening to respond. That's done really badly. That's it.
Jack Heald:There is a fascinating insight there. If, if we, if we take that into the realm of getting stuff done in business, you know, the, the highest, the most high producing teams, organizations, businesses, whatever, have that sense of we're all in this together. We're bearing both the pains and the joys as, as one person. And I've, you know, very seldom have I ever gotten to be part of something like that. And the few times I have it is so addictive you want that desperately didn't occur to me until just now that that is, that's qualitatively the same experience I have at a concert when the whole audience is transported.
Speaker 5:Go ahead Matthew and then I want to say something. Oh, I was just going to say that's the reason I keep doing this against all, all odds and humiliating gigs and where you're being ignored. I play somewhere around seven to 9,000 songs a year that are completely ignored, which is fine. That's a living, but the, that moment of total surrender and understanding into flow state and into the song and into another dimension with total strangers, you have that somewhat regularly, more, sometimes more than others obviously like you know what a ticketed show or a concert or whatever, like where I'm playing in this theater with a bunch of people, but like that's why you do it. It's not because of some dream or fame or money or anything you want, you, you have a moment that makes you feel like there is a god right when you have, when you don't really believe in any of that. Like, I don't know, you ever feeling like, oh there there's something else. For sure. Then you want to try to spend your life recreating those moments and trying to yeah, more of those. Uh, and more and more and more. You can, but that's what, that's what I'm after right after it for myself or for my, I never wanted to be famous. I want to get into that space with people, strangers, maybe people that I know. But like where you go, you go somewhere where there's no, there's no way to explain it other than some sort of mystical weird thing that you sound ridiculous when you're saying it to people.
Katherine H.:Oh, you didn't know you were going to getting involved in something like this. Did you Catherine, I have something to say about this cause I think we're spot on spot on of what we're talking about here. So my belief is that, um, if you think about Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, my belief is that, um, we all have a need to feel valued, to feel appreciated and to feel like we're part of something bigger than ourselves. And that's what the musical experience and the concert or the singing I used to sing in a call group and um, that's what w that's how we get that need met and then being part of a successful team and part of a successful company that supposedly is going to help us get that need met too.
Speaker 5:Well, I don't know what that's like, but the rest of it, the rest of it for sure. That's so huge,
Katherine H.:right? It's huge. This is huge. This is like while we're born and these are the four questions and people don't know about those four questions and they don't know that there's more to life than just making money and going to meetings. And that's why that just having a money goal
Speaker 5:doesn't get the job done because it doesn't answer any of those questions. It seems like people that are trying to make money or people that are treading water and they barely have their head above water and they're just trying to stay above the waves or whatever. So sort of frantically just, I just need more money so that I can figure out what I want to do with the five where where you don't know which direction to swim because you don't really care where the island is. You're just trying to stay above, you're just trying to keep breathing. I've definitely felt that because obviously as a musician who isn't on the radio all the time where you know your struggle, but[inaudible] trying to get above, trying to get above that and out of that mode of thinking where I'm just trying to make another dollar and, and try to figuring out what I really want to be doing and not worry about the money because that kind of comes and goes anyway. But to try to recreate those moments is the idea. But I think a lot of people just get lost because they're, they're trying to stay above water. They're, they don't, they don't know which way to direction, to swim. They're just trying not to get it.
Katherine H.:They go under or whatever. Right? And that's why these nine habits are so critical. And that's what people, the people that have used them, a lot of them and love them, they would never think of not using them. One, one person came up to me at a conference where she had heard me speak at that conference a year before. She said, I call your ebook my, I call it my Bible. I look at it every day. Uh, but um, if they don't, um, you know, do the habits and they're just focused on the ill and the insignificant and shallow things like the money or prestige or something like that. And then that's why they feel so MP and they become heroin addicts and opioid addicts. And the rest is history. But, but there is something really important to have to say about those last three habits. You have to put pen to paper. You can't just sit on your patio and gaze at the clouds and think strategically. Mini course you aren't thinking strategically, but you can't see the facts from the stories that you made up about the facts. You can't, um, you can't get the level of clarity that you need to get unless you start writing down, well, what is important to me or what is important to me in this project or who would be the best person to lead this project. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. I had a CEO client also in a big company and um, he had, he needed to move his COO out. I had told him earlier that I, I saw his pool of candidates to replace him was not big enough pool cause he only had two candidates and I didn't think either of them could do the job. And um, he said, no, thank you for Sharing Katherine, but I'm happy, I'm satisfied. And then as time went on, they proved that they were, and so it was only one left and, and he wasn't competent to, to move up to the CEO role. He wasn't even competent to be the COO. I had told him the day he got promoted to COO. I said, your ability to be successful in this role is directly correlated with your ability to bring this, your team together as a real team. And, um, he didn't believe me. And so guess what? He wasn't successful. So the board knew that he wasn't successful. The whole company knew he wasn't being successful, but the CEO wouldn't admit it. And, um, I gave him all kinds of options on how he could fix this problem and you know, like any of my ideas. And I said, if you don't fix a problem, them board's gonna fix it and that's going to turn this your reputation and your credibility. And sure enough, that's what happened. So it took me a year and a half to figure out, but one day I woke up and I thought, I bet that guy never put pen to paper. He was such a big fan of taking the strategic thing time, but I bet he didn't take put pen to paper. So to have lunch with him, you know, recently and I said to him, Hey, you know, Bob, I know you were a big fan of the strategic thing time, but did you put pen to paper as I said, or did you even have your iPad open where you can make some notes? So I was mostly just, um, you know, just thinking, looking at the clouds. So see you got to put pen to paper cause the other way, otherwise it's just all swirling around in your head. Wow. It's not wild. Well, yeah, there's
Jack Heald:a, there's, there's all kinds of, of neurochemistry and cognitive therapy that's involved in that physical stuff. I know that when, um, I make it a point to, uh, to observe my own dreams. In fact, just this morning I woke up, uh, I, I, I, I had a dream just before I woke up at one that really disturbed me. And, uh, um, so I've, I've made it a point to start writing those dreams, downs and end. When I write them down, they begin to make sense to me. I began to understand what it is my subconscious is trying to tell me. Um, and the good news is this morning when I wrote that dream down, I was, I looked at the previous dream I had written down from two or three weeks ago and we'll, by Golly, they were related. I had. And if I'd been doing that, you know, just if I hadn't been jotting it down, um, I wouldn't have made that connection that these two things were, were the same thing basically. And I, you know, I can talk for, yeah, I've done all kinds of journaling, but I wanna I wanna I want to find out a little bit more about you, Catherine. You don't get to this level of understanding about how, how the world works and how business works without understanding yourself. Yeah. Better as well. So I'm guessing at some point there was, there was maybe a crisis of, of a life crisis that, that allowed you to, um, or share a breakthrough. Can you share with us what that was or how that was?
Katherine H.:Oh, sure. Well. Um, so I was, you know, um, I, I got, I was able to escape from Mississippi and I got the doubts, but I didn't have a college degree, but I W I was able to meet my spouse in Dallas. And so that was a hugely, um, powerful III positive experience. She's older than me. We're still together now 38 years later and I'm excited to be together every day. Yeah. Very excited to be together every day. I was, you know, of course, very young and um, so her, and she grew up German and I grew up Irish with all those alcoholics. So, you know, with her, for her, you know, we went to the grocery store on a certain day, we ate, you know, every night at the same time. There was just a tremendous amount of structure. So that was really positive. But even with her powerful influence, um, I was just a crazy workaholic. I was working nights and weekends and part of why I worked on the weekends and I needed high quality solitude, but I didn't know myself well enough to know that I needed high quality solitude. And so it would go into the office where it was quiet often I'd be the only person there, just me in the hum of the, of the copy machine. So, uh, but, but then by the time I was about 32 years old, I've got chronic fatigue and immune deficiency syndrome. There you go. Yes. It's still then slowly cure me of my workaholism but um, it, it did, it was a huge wake up call. Huge wake up call. And um, but I tell people by the time I got up, uh, you know, had breakfast, took a shower, put on my pantyhose, cause back then we would wear pantyhose to work and drove myself, drove myself to work. By the time I had done that, I had used all the energy I had for the day. I had no more energy. No. All I could do is just look out the window. Fortunately had a beautiful view from my office and it's in Las Colinas, which is a beautiful part of Irving, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas. So I had this beautiful view and that's all I could do is just shuffled audit, work papers around because I couldn't do any work. And I'm a go ahead.
Speaker 5:Oh, I was just going to say where you, where you repent the mustangs, where'd you go to school? You went to school in Irving at ut for awhile. I dropped out, I dropped out slash they kicked me out. My grades, my grades were, I got a 2.6 my first semester or 1.6 my second semester and a 0.6 my third semester they noticed a downward trend and uh, decided to exit me from theater. But anyway, I, I've been to Las Colinas. It was really cool. Oh, cool. Suburb. Yeah. Yeah. Such
Katherine H.:a cool suburb. So I was working, um, right across, uh, highway one 14 from those Mustang so I could see those lakes and those beautiful buildings. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so, but, uh, so I would say to my wife Bonnie, I would say, um, you know, they're, they're gonna find out that I'm not actually doing any work. It's just like they're never going to find out. And sure enough they never did. And finally, after about six, isn't that funny? Until after about six or eight months, um, I found an MD that could treat me. And so he treated me for another six, eight months. And then he said, you've got to take some time off because I need you to take this viral killer and it's gonna make your brain swell because the virus was in my brain and you're going to have horrible headaches. You're not going to be able to get dressed and go to work. So I took six weeks of short term disability than I fortunate I was working for a big company. So I had all those good benefits. And then I was able to ease my way back into the work place. And um, and uh, so yeah, so that was the biggest wake up call and Millan. I went into business for myself. I still had some workaholic tendencies, but I had been working for 18 months, two jobs. My part-time did launch my business and my full time day job. And so I was really clear that I wasn't going to work in the night and the weekends anymore. And so I've been really rigorous with that. And it's made a world of difference for me. It's the first year too though. I was like a caged animal pacing around my house in the evenings cause I didn't know what to do with my space. You probably never had a life like that. Right, right.
Speaker 5:I've had this thing where, Aye, I'm not a very religious person, but I think that 10 commandments got something right with taking a sabbath. And what's interesting to me is they t they command it like don't murder people. And everybody's like, well I'm not gonna definitely not going to murder people, but I can work on Sundays. Like it didn't say like, this one's like sort of a footnote, like try not to do anything. But if you do, it's no big deal. It's like right up there with don't kill people. Don't lie, don't steal.
Katherine H.:Right. And they take it day by day and give your animals a day off. Right. And your employees a day off. Right. Which I admit I don't always do, but it's like a[inaudible].
Speaker 5:It's a big deal to take a day and not doing anything. And it seems like such a, like we pay attention to a lot of the other ones and then we go like, ah, I'll just go to a few things then. And you know, but there's, it seems like over and over I hear people when they do that, it just makes a huge,
Katherine H.:ah, well you can see the forest for the trees. You stop, you stop obsessing about every little detail and you look at the big pictures and you're like a dumb, not even in the right role based on my strings onto something. Right.
Jack Heald:Do you have, um, tools that you use, um, other people's tools other than the ones you've developed, tools that you've used that you recommend? Oh, for your clients?
Katherine H.:Well, sure. The planner pad is probably the biggest one. I can't have a speaking engagement without mentioning the planner pad because I, I love it so much. Um, it's, it's like those, um, Franklin Covey things from the 80s, but it's true. It's real sin. You can just drop it in your bag. It's spiral bound. It gives you a whole year and it's, you know, in one little spiral bound. So I'm going to stop you right there because my brain works this way.
Jack Heald:You have clearly have, um, these, uh, decades of self-discipline. Yeah. And probably combined with a little bit of just innate organizational abilities. Anyway. So for, for those of us who may not have that kind of innate ability, what's the, what is the, the component that's missing, um, that allows a person to, something like this, the nine habits, these planner pads, what have they got to get ahold of and how do we do that? Well, they got so that you can begin to implement these techniques, these tactics in your life.
Katherine H.:Well, what I say is that we gotta be willing to get out of our comfort zone and do use experiment. Your habits might be nine different ones in mind. It's not, I'm not saying you have to do all nine of these habits. I'm just saying, these are the ones that have worked for me, but, and I think they kept me from being institutionalized. I think I should have probably been institutionalized because I was such a crazy maker. But, um, but, um, I think you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone when you have to look and say, okay, you know, what is my trajectory? You know, what is the quality of my life? Am I happy? Am I fulfilled? You know, what's called e my relationships. If you get, you know, anything less than a 10 plus on any of those answers, then you have to be willing to look at those and get out of your comfort zone and use some new and different approaches. And so that's what I tell people. Yeah. It's, it's, it's the hard way or the easy way. The hard way is just replicating all your mistakes. If you don't, if you don't brace the, the growth opportunities to life lessons. And, and by the way, I believe the red flags are always there of that something's going to go south. Um, but if you don't embrace those as growth opportunities, like, like my Mama, you know, she kept me stuck. She's supporting me and staying stuck. When I would get fired, I would call her and I'd say, mom, I got fired against you, so it's not your fault. It's not your fault. You're such a hard worker. And then the next time I got fired and you just have smart, you intimidate people. I'm like, you're right, mom. It's not my fault. Well, I was, I was stuck. And finally I had to look in the mirror and say, no, I'm the common denominator here. So we have to be willing to do difficult and uncomfortable things and, and build this muscle around these disciplines.
Jack Heald:You know, that, that strikes a chord with me. And in regards to one of the four questions, um, and I, you know, it sounds like you had to come up with a different answer to who am I? Right. Interesting. I hadn't ever thought about that before, but, um, I've, you know, I've taught in terms of giving people answers to help them, um, feel like they're part of something big. You've got to give them a, uh, who am I answer? Um, that it doesn't have to be deeply true, but it does have to feel true. But what I'm hearing is the kind of progress that you made personally didn't start until you God a, a truer answer to the WHO am I question?
Katherine H.:Well, um, yes I do. I had not thought of that in those, in that context. But, um, I think that you're exactly right. W that's how I figured out I should not have been an accountant. Okay. You're saying that we believe things about ourselves that aren't true. I'm going to, I'm going to cogitate on that one for awhile. Yeah. See I thought, um, and see in hindsight, my dad Shannon been in accounts and either he was a people person too and that's why he was a workaholic. He would spend all day doing what I do, talking to business leaders about what was most important to them about their company, their families, how they wanted to grow their companies, what kind of legacy they wanted to leave. And then, but he wasn't getting paid for any of that. He was only getting paid for their financial statements and their tax returns. And so then he had to do that on the nights and on the weekends. So, uh, it was figuring out, you know, I'm a people person, I love people. I haven't met anybody. I didn't just love how can I craft a job where I could just spend my days brainstorming with people about what's important to them. And I'm so fortunate, I'm so blessed.
Speaker 5:I just love those stories of, um, I didn't know that that was the job. Or you know, like there, there's a guy that writes songs for like the, the toys that you push and something comes out where you push on it and it's like damn dated. And then Danny, then like there's a guy that's making royalties from toys. I don't know. That was a job.
Katherine H.:I didn't know that was the job either. Right.
Speaker 5:Hang out with companies and tell them like, hey, he goes or morons, that'll be, that'll be 8,000. She doesn't do it that way. Matthew. Well, not to their face. And that's why she's got that job. And you don't, oh, I would be amazing at that job. I would go, this meeting is adjourned. It's wasted time. And everybody's fired. Yeah. No, I can't do a businessy things. Everyone's doing a lot about my skillset. And, uh, area isn't one really. I can, I can play music, but that's about it.
Katherine H.:Yes. Well, um, you have a lot of skillsets and you've proven Mo, you know, all of those today. You know, just brainstorming with me and jacket. That's a real gift, Matthew. So I'm not gonna let, I'm not gonna, but let me say something else about those gifts. Yeah. I don't believe we have weaknesses. And let me say that again. I do not, we have weaknesses. Certainly. I still get myself in trouble on our very regular basis, almost daily. But I think the reason I get myself in trouble is not because I have wheat insists, but because I bring too much of my strengths. Okay. I like where this is going, but I want it. Okay. So like one of my, uh, strengths is the gift of enthusiasm. I tend to be very enthusiastic as you all can tell. And especially around this topic. I'm so passionate about this topic. I could do like four hours straight podcast. I can just talk, talk, talk. I'm so excited about this topic. So, so my enthusiasm clouds my judgment about ideas, I become too enthusiastic too quickly. So my team here, Matthew, Bonnie, the people that work with me closely, they trained themselves over the last few decades to say to me, when I reach out to one of them with an idea, they say, uh, Catherine, um, gosh, um, you want to sleep on that because they know tomorrow morning I will take my strategic same time and I will look more rationally at that idea. What is the cost and what is the benefit? You cut them the paper. Yes. I put pen to paper and um, and they, they know that I'll have a better decision than I do today. So they'll say like, don't even talk anymore. Don't tell me anything more about this idea until tomorrow. Let's talk again tomorrow. So that's one idea. And another thing is I love everybody. And so I tend to not have very good boundaries, so I give away my time freely. I give way too many of free services. So that's not a, that's not a weakness. That's just what my dream was about last night. Hmm. That's very synchronistic, isn't it? That you dreamed about that and now you're interviewing me. Uh Huh. Wow.
Jack Heald:Yeah. Wow. Well, Catherine, this has been the, the, so this hour has just flown by and so much fun for me and I'm glad we finally got to have this conversation. We had been kind of missing each other for, it's gotta be two years. Yeah, I know. Which is just not right at all. So, um, if folks want to get ahold of you, um, what's the best way to do then give us that information?
Katherine H.:The best way is just pick up the phone. A(602) 266-1961 is my phone number here at my office number here in Phoenix. Um, if I like to text and my mobile is(602) 617-3913 39 13. My email address, what my website is helping company.com help and company.com that's focused on one area of what, where I work and work environments that's focused on merges and acquisitions because the need is so great. KPMG says 83% of mergers and acquisitions failed to achieve the forecasted goals so that I dedicated my entire website to just MNA using my methods. Um, and then, uh, my email is k for Catherine. Dot. K. Dot. Help and h a l P as in Peter, I in as a Nathan help in@helpingcompany.com. So those are, and then of course I'm on Linkedin and Facebook heavily. I'm not so much on Instagram like I should be or snapchat, but definitely on the big ones. And so I look to people finding me on'em. Alright. I will let our listeners know that this information will be available on the podcast website so they don't have to wrap the car while they can write it down. You're so organized and so great. Absolutely. Yeah. Any last words you'd like to leave us with before we call it a day here? Well, um, do you want to be in control of your own destiny? Do you want to get out of reactive mode and um, and stop letting your boss or your customers or your clients or your employees control your destiny and you want to get in proactive strategic mode. Then go to Amazon and download for the large cost of$2 and 99 cents and get about a 30 page ebook on these nine habits and the table of contents. Uh, people say this table, this is their first, their favorite part cause they can just scan that table. It's just a scanning thing. You don't have to read the whole 30 pages but yeah, start seeing that Matthew and make that big investment.$2 and 99 cents and these habits, they work and they work for everybody. And then in my book, alignment for success, bringing out the best in yourself, your team and teams in your company. I have two whole chapters about the self leadership and self management tactics and then a chapter on the team and the chapter on organizational wide alignment. And so those are more about the step up or step out program and um, acknowledgements to celebrate the successes, to create those environments where people want to step up and speak up. Um, so not rockets. We'll make sure those are linked as well on the cake. They're awesome. You got me all fired up to make a great team and this stuff works. It really works if you work it, but it's um, it's not rocket science.
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny, the things that really make a difference in life, um, are, are generally the very simple things for me. I'm learning to sing no strange, very, very strange or to staying connected with both of you. Thank you. Absolutely. Matthew. Yup. Got parting words for us. Uh, I'll take that as a note. All right. All right, Shawna. Remember our motto, if you don't feel it, you're not going to love it if it doesn't have for your pet it, I think it's something like that. Alright. On behalf of Catherine[inaudible] and Matthew Thornton. Jack healed for the caught your brand podcast. Thanks for loose listening. Make sure that you subscribe. We're available on iTunes and all the other really cool places. We will talk to you again soon. See Ya. At Coke your brand, we explore ideas and people to build stronger cultures and help make better connections. Connect with us on the web at[inaudible] dot com and on social media sites and youtube. This has been a cult brand production.