#965 הדיבייט הראשון שהתפוצץ! 💣 יריב אופנהיימר VS יובל בלומברג על הסכמי אוסלו

בפרק זה של הפודקאסט "על המשמעות" עו"ד תמיר דורטל מארח את יריב אופנהיימר, לשעבר מזכ"ל תנועת 'שלום עכשיו', ואת יובל בלומברג, מחבר הספר 'מלכודת אוסלו', לדיבייט על מורשת הסכמי אוסלו, כוונות הפלסטינים והיתכנותו של פתרון שתי המדינות.
העימות הנוקב בפאנל צולל אל שורשי השסע העמוק ביותר בחברה הישראלית. מצד אחד, יריב אופנהיימר מציג את תזת השמאל הישראלי לפיה הסכמי אוסלו היוו פריצת דרך היסטורית של הכרה הדדית. לטענתו, האשמה בכישלון התהליך מוטלת על גורמים קיצוניים בשני הצדדים – ארגון חמאס מחד, והימין הישראלי מאידך, אשר חיבלו בהסכם. אופנהיימר טוען בלהט כי ללא הקמת מדינה פלסטינית מפורזת לצד ישראל, המפעל הציוני יקרוס לתוך מציאות דו-לאומית שתחסל את הרוב היהודי ואת אופייה הדמוקרטי של המדינה.
מנגד, יובל בלומברג מנפץ את הקונספציה של אוסלו ומציג נתונים היסטוריים המוכיחים, לשיטתו, כי ההסכם היה לא יותר ממלכודת הונאה פלסטינית. בלומברג מזכיר את "נאום יוהנסבורג" של יאסר ערפאת ומדגיש כי הרשות הפלסטינית והעומד בראשה, אבו מאזן, מעולם לא זנחו את השאיפה להשמדת מדינת ישראל. לטענתו, הרעיון לפיו ישנו "פרטנר מתון" קיים אך ורק בדמיונו של מחנה השמאל, שניסה לכפות מציאות מדומיינת על מזרח תיכון אכזר. בלומברג מזהיר מפני השלכות של נסיגות נוספות, ומשווה את המהלכים להשתלטות האסלאם הפוליטי על אירופה.
האם יאסר ערפאת באמת התכוון להגיע לשלום של אמיצים או שהשתמש בהסכם כסוס טרויאני? האם רצח רבין הוא שהפיל את הסכמי השלום, או שהיו אלה אוטובוסים מתפוצצים של טרור מתגבר? ומהי הדרך היחידה להבטיח את ביטחונה של ישראל לאחר השבעה באוקטובר? 
בפרק זה תאזינו לדיון פילוסופי, היסטורי ופוליטי סוער, הכולל חילופי דברים קשים שמובילים לבסוף לאחד הרגעים הדרמטיים ביותר באולפן. הצטרפו אלינו לשיחה שחובה על כל ישראלי לשמוע כדי להבין את הכוחות המעצבים את עתידנו.

00:00:00 פתיחה והצגת האורחים באולפן
00:01:28 תזת השמאל: אוסלו כהתעוררות והכרה הדדית
00:03:04 תזת הימין: אוסלו כפשיטת רגל והונאה של ערפאת
00:05:46 האם רוב הפלסטינים רוצים פתרון שתי מדינות?
00:10:05 האחים המוסלמים ונאום ההונאה של יאסר ערפאת 
00:14:53 הדילמה הדמוקרטית: חשיבות פתרון שתי המדינות לישראל
00:23:00 האם לשטח גיאוגרפי יש משמעות בעידן הטילים?
00:27:14 תוצאות האוטונומיה: מה עשו הפלסטינים עם רצועת עזה?
00:38:56 האשמות הדדיות: מי באמת חיסל את תהליך אוסלו?
00:43:09 מדוע טבח השבעה באוקטובר פרץ דווקא מעזה?
00:52:01 פרטנר פלסטיני לשלום או מציאות מדומיינת של השמאל?
01:03:40 רצח יצחק רבין והשפעתו על התרסקות השלום
01:08:40 מגילת העצמאות וסוגיית השוויון במדינה יהודית
01:23:31 פיצוץ באולפן: אירופה, איסלאם פוליטי והאשמות בגזענות
01:26:38 המשך השיחה עם יובל ומה יגרום לכל צד לשנות דעתו? (פרימיום)

#פודקאסט #על_המשמעות

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Okay, and in his car, and Shagir, O Diala Nokim, and the M. Norvegan, and I think we see the t shirt.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

So I'm not going to be able to do this.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So podcast me to route the Karada, Arafat. Arafat, Masha Karal, and the people, the Beto, a pratique, the Harmil Hemet, I have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Anitoen Shanachnu kha vi mom yom la semana sulkhaneta tzashelan un shte medinot. Veyom yom la gid mishenil khamba nunil kembo, van Micha utselda berita nuzotzal Shamachnu khim. Ki zainteres shalan uzahim shalan. Benay, misea utselda befelestini, uose na. Ki basof, gami machar, beototu bemuftim, ani uhhihah shekola felestinim. Kulamutzim. Medina felestini t meforeze bit khon Israel, zelo anyotu. Ki basof, a motivazia ilo Falestini, Palestini Zhatutza motivazia zeaum za. Zota ideologi shmeret, erit Israel Khashuvamim Dinat Israel, erit Israel, Am Israel Torah Israel, Demokratia Bachutz, Rovi Yudhi Bahuts, Zionut Bachutz, Zota Tsionut Hadashad Zuhai. Shenoma Amina Demokratia, Maminabel Yunut Yudit. Melachanga mima Falestini Mahshavil Beshud Israel, Inafu Badegel, Vegidu Atemada, Tzinut Zahwahitov Shkala, Anachnu Besim Khan, Ahnum Muchanim, Le Koles There, Zelohani. Ani Mukha Falastini m Lord Tim Stimedinot, who Lani Muka Miti, Shegorem la Mini Ideologi, Loli South, Bepitron Stehemedinot. Animuka Amiti who ni muk er ki Sheomir a Shetah, Khashov ma' Rachim. Ani Khaphon Sahim Lachlit Kodim call my interesse Israeli, Israeli, Kem Keva, Natzer, Lichla Nu partner, and him partner, La Sothibi Hulten al Minachi partner, Vishlan, Shpielakinit, Lopochot Michelmash Pi Malenu, Veleatzerabitachon with Drishot, Bitchoniot and Menaches Kamzahus Bitachon, Meaus Bitachon, or Tim Hayalimbabika, and the other thing. Aval, meach ribonut politic lafalustinim. Mea chuz bitahot mwat meahus ribonut. Ze iscam Shelavana Knut. Shavim n partner at optify relevant. Kiwani sembeze ayom imbahfalestinit sa yearven imrat lekitato yab universita. Mm-hmm khaverim a limut i enadarki, atenodarki. Ani khoshev la Sig at Smaut, Kmoshlikola, Medino Taolam. Anachun Tshim atzmaut, Vezrachut, Vemedina, Anakum Sahim La Sote Zebed Rachalom. Anaknut Sahim Lifnot, Derecha Rishatota Khivatiot, Le Bosh el Itamarbenkvir, Lili Boshel Bitzalezmotrich, Velbosh Netanya, Vele de Berelem, Velasbiram Shizavara Ogenva to Declass. Myasu,

SPEAKER_02 22:31

If you have a lot of people who are not going to be able to do this, you can't get a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a big bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a few.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeshem Shne Kochot Politim Belkazim Kohad Shuwa Hamas Begadol Shem Code She Ma'amin Bepachot Mashayamin Ma'amin Rakbe Palestinit. Masha Yaminomer Gamemumri Mila Bemila Negareshotam Shekhzulem Komotachim, Akol Shelan, Ulomagelem Shuyo, Mila Zeme, Mila Bemila, Masha Yaminomer, Zemashe, A Hamasumer Weologia. Haka Hamas Gameoshutz. She mung, Oshiotezraqina, Khat, Kolezra Shebayu, Dimut, Vazbemetal Khamedina Nineg, Oh, ishut M Dina Falestini. Mishio Lechla Autonomia, Yekabel Odin Tifada, Od Shiva Oktober, O'Deson. Ani Shiknatauti, call ma sha sinu ta'ut, atadelam ta'ut, kilo sinu medina falestinit. Hashabnun ithakem, na se autonomia, na se AVB, na se shem, tahat masor kaze, vanach nukan, wahnulagvur, vanachnu ali, kola ithakmuyota shaiknatauti mlana khnut. Adawara in yanza medina falestinit me forezit letzidenu. Vedza odlonisinu, nisinu tko la triki mef sharim. When you make a son, the gamason, the gab Palestini A shami shall shoot Palestini, Mia Patron Shella Shut Palestini. The Shootadam, the Democratia, the Kibudiscamim, the Shalom Bakato. Mia Patron Shella Hamas. Qatar Turkia. Shabonifra, would say and Him Sh, Polity, Muhanim, Muhanimeral Patron Shemedino. Nil Khamim Nefamim Beesh Kayam, Mula, Akim Sheleimba Hamas, and Him. Atamadif Otam or Khivar Turkia. Zepitom aligrom, L Israelim, Shukharesh Democratia, Lamin, Shhesh Opti Akh, Milvad, le Felestini Ad Kids.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Okay. And Hoshimala Fort Azal is shooting more Singapore. Ah, Victor Liberman.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Lolo. Mapito Anachnu Mitnachalim Big From Garim. No, in that Zatimbar le Ramala. Trump. Trump is the same. Trump. And the Temple Azame and Lodemuzamizolo Azikara? No? The Icre? Zeloikre. Cola combinotele, Shana se pop plaster, shamatonomia, the Aznochia, Shame, Lomaski. Accol, a colas. Basof Gamma Bitachon Meshret Arachim. And it's a color, but we have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

So the corpses.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Lamoikimta F anomershov, a dim Yonotta Lomit Katvimima Metsuut, Pashutum Lomit Katvimi Metziut, Colony Sayana Zelim Korlanu, et Utopia Shimset Everlapina. Vkiotloni sino to beukba matakona doyakaze kim rakna sottoba matonamed doyaksha smallomersiatliar batuar, Vazayashama. Ainushama. Mki bluita isdam luchelaim. Mki bluita isdamnu chlam, Verainu Mayata, Yatalanu ashvibe October, Velamakara Sh Vib October Dafka Hashab, Ash V October Bon Yakanim Le Fahod Benenu Lebanat's Men, Ash Vib October Holy Cod Becol Situatia Mid Kone Laver Baseman. Ash Vib October Sofoshil De Var Masha Heni Outto, Katoufana Shil Hamas, W Katov Gamba Mana Palastini, Shame Ulam Loshunta. Zo omedos of Falastini, Vika Movani Shit, Alla Ulama Islami, Ala Tfisa Islami. So Fishelay, Albsis, Hazo, Hemish Q, Mashabim Shiam, And Cola Holochi Lyim, It's Kalkala, Hakol, Hushka, Belema Meshana Zed, Hazana Ashmada, Shelanu, Mem Shala Kame, Mem Shalah, Malif, Intelligence, Dafka Big Lem Shell, Karaze, But I Met Shav It's Pesha Well, Talekim, We Amas Kano, Lamas, Pitchatana, Bonita Limbiduke, Apambi Udav Shaman and Rak Shelter's Mia Harosh, Viya Hashem, Chiathiluluf Margemot, Mitoh Mordotahar, Letoh Tel Aviv, Miyaz Mabah Rayut, Osha's Molazi Saperla Nu, Shelonatanu Bidiu Kita Medina Palestini ta meduyekitwe imrakni tanazefti andishel mi Hashem azhilulit Slovba nu makahim, le kivun k vi shesh. Miya shem az Mi Saba Akhaiutaz, and Shali ma small yesh ezeshumashunosaba akhaiut klapav. Zo to meet ezehtaklubi courtita khora, la git ta'inu ban kudazot. Bonafik lekim, and shuma fakat lekahim. Ava lachavna se auto baribua, loraketazan a sega met you dave shumron. She agav zebemli, she was Brisel Shama, and Akima Muslimim, we m you have Patron Shelana, be met Rakotaama Ahmed Trihim, kdechenhala avir le poet, kolam a soreta kibushua Kim Mouslimim, Shemitracheshama Kev be Briselle, London, Amsterdam, kolam comme tayle, la tetlaem li ottakim alekota Trihimekuda Khisal no et Rosha mem shalla, ta amulat kazav shikrit, ta amulat kazav shikrit, andirakit kaha, sha sata, manimara zebrben adam shekarla omeka sata bitkufant skemey oslo sata bitkufant skeme oslo, neged rabbin, lomit karevet, la karsoulaim, la karsoulaim, sha sata neged netanyao, but shenimahonot mimashole bittohasmall ilomit karevet, babet lomit karevet, andpa sata metorefil machaneshalem shailah, lomia kale zelomia an sha shulaim, tzet meharosh velemata, collamesham, uhriot lerezzah Rosha memshalah, akinuim shel rosham shalakebbogeid, akinuim shel t'rihla sottlit mishpachesko, merlotio tola egg, and lonim tsaim shamait ezoveakir, elazoah sata, shikhota kolamachanete hanhagashela machaneta elite shahamachaneaseh. Rabinsa foshil the deben adamehad, un yar tsahali debina damehad.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Nashhav when you drunk slaam this uh uh salam or bitroni.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Rabin there, fish can paradigma paradigma, Rabin Mihal or the Bethoni, Israel Khashud, Zayal Pia Skemin, Emloi Fsikoita Sata, Zayal Pia Eskemin, M L Ginuita Satan, Zayal Pia Eskemim, Israel Ibda Slita, Ala Shutrim, Bashutta Palestini, Israel Tat's, Gamayam is Parm Sumami, the chatrim, the Gam Israel Ashero, Israel Bday Hamishima Huz, Shlita al Hamishima Huz Mershima. Atterroid Gbeber et Rabbi, we kpila that's a Shamir. As lale teleangid, Shim Layu Trim et Rabin, Ashala Mayamid Gabbeir, okay, Michel, should be a kid. Ayyupo, Shloshim yeudim chinir tzhehu, meachatimaal tzarata ekronote, meachati mal at Sarata ekronote, Adletevah Mayarata Mahpela, B Februar, Tishim the Arba Shim Yudim Yir Tzehua, you're Nisio Not Lepiguim Kamuvan, Avalzaya Matav e Basetah. Vizayah, Achrekola niumimanimlatzim, Alzeshaf sikimetasihsouh, Alzheimer Msikim Hashov Chman, Yomer, and Elech Philo Said, Pemet Bleach Lita, Afat Low Bashetah, Aval Arafat filo, Helma.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Ret Zahabin. Why I mean, or she's a minute.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

Shimon Perez, Baskarimas, I amin' him, Baskarim. As by Beth Zek, Mr Kell Bayetta Politi, Retzahrabin, Agam Yadah, Ret Zahrabin, Butsa, Asha Lava Shini, Butzsa Oslo Bay. So Titan Siga, Mikola Arimbe, you David Shumron, Blizz Schum of Gana, Ble Shum Pay Lut Mecha, Blink Loom. So by Bent Zeke, Mr. Klimala, Martin.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Martin Indication.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Martin Bidjuke, itonatania. And si uh small, If it's a hotim and that in that kufa. The pigway abdut, the pagas, the Arab Israel, she has been a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Nizuhere od Mishish and Ipzula Tashmashama Hora Nizuh Mikola Sipo Anisha, Meode Nichusha, Sheshba, Meotal Fim, Khasiwat Ghisni Sipo Hhef Shadaber, Shashela, Shel Matay, Shel Efo, Shel Kama Shel Midatiut, Laura calls Hefker, Gamlo Batsachilan, but the same thing. Baregeshless Dirkeva, Rey Mitzraim, Reyden, as be mitraimetalahima Muslimim lokma conspiracial Europa. The kiloyata sritta imim mishi is here me skeman shalom i mitzraim, amar mayima achima Muslimimiya Lusha. Alu Aim eskema shalom mitraim butal? Loh, Aim Ayk Hamimud be Akhimlo, Aimu Bikerbi Israel, Aval eskem Nisha, kieskem shalom ben medinot, ulo iskem shalom ben med. Khalik misadolami, Veshla slachot, Vesh interesim, veshim, vesh echolot, Vilchen, Mishikwele Zepiches, suloman eldiumritini. Lagia le esderi keva, sheboyesh gvul, sheboyesh medinari bonit, s'eshla khutri bonit, seshla gemecholitla khofita ischemase, shaolama revla ischemase, shechsidura bi tehona nechonim, sheeshle khabasov gam bneadam, shem khalek my ischemase, ve emlone nimi perutava ni lawzele nashim perut, andirozenashim le khaleklaim kamash kalimu ishruwa vodab Israel. Andi utseshele cole, ben ayarden layamti ezrahut. Mikivan shani otsel yot of yudi, and i'll say shemkulami uzakim israeli. Look at the code him interesse Israeli the interesse Israeli met me gilata's mouth me should say like shit migrat's mouth man. I am shall she may deny you did be reviewed, shall be met. I am Shally call me deny you did she may deny you did, you may review the benefit. Can you democratic? Shein, may uh small democratic to the midset, come over is a fim, I'll politioche.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

No, I'm tet. Shivan's a little bit, a love delay, that gives him a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Tim Tizamavel, the Mishpace Timoto, Walbert Hazard. And mean and load, Basofish Gum Tamara, the day the barta, la small Bashlayot, Vze Lodashlayot, and Shmara, nibar Sokga would say the kelet, okay? Gam Kelik, Ulailochov, Benaif.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Anukorim, Gambetoh, Kafatamim, Hane Richard, Alenus, Zechodhim, Livnea Mara V. I met the Imet.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

Kani Mala So Tani, Basof, Ani, Hudmizha N Yudiv and Zukama Sula Yudim Ani Basof, Benadam, Marzikma's me machimpsisim shall shivion. Memishima minta me chefimizimlo ifshagid Zahim Sugbetkim no Zrachim, Em Mashu, Sugbet, Viz Alzeo de Oudmedch Shalom Vitachon, Hybe Serit, Ef Sharl Slot Baamh, Velitzapo Chietov, Ufda Zelokara. V Vegamim Zekure, Aninegedze. Maniegid, Negetze, Marasot, Anilotovli, Shelly Shuod the Galshanolati Leorim Oppenheimer, Vela Khvershli, Noladla Orim Muhammad Schuyot. Lo Balitov Devaraze. Anilo Gazan, Anilo Benadam Schlomamin be Democratia or Democratia Leyudin Bilvan. Velachen, Benaize, Zeapitaron, Vzeasholti Machov, Ze Davar Hashu, the Simchati Bamakom, Shegama Devara N Holasot, Ugama Devara Batu Lassot, Vadavara Lonacholasot, Zam Shit Mashanachimashav, Colmine Kumbinot, Colmine Colm Le Pi Lester Kev Pichivkis. Eh, Kiluvaz, Lityamelin El Dion Ritzini. And the Pichivkis, Zebidukasugia, Aim Kimpolish Temedinot, or Aim Kimpol Clovim, Shakurimotonomia, Visham Nitalilimba and Shimbeto Clovimele, Elam is Khoyot, Enlam is Rachut, Enmishagenelem, Tamidne Kabelta interest him shelim, Vishme Shartot interest in Shelanu, Elem Zut Lumichovati Gamma Shwinkan Bachedir, as ma asapimsh maikre em yekumu Baboker, Ezekev, Sifra Mudish Tanu Bashutini to the Hagev's gamma at Slomin Hablimishta no Benetter Big Dalak, Shel Hudope. Kigami Machmunela made call boker, Mishmone Babokiraj, Shmone by Erevita Felestini, Bakita, She Israel Dadawa Kitovskal, Lola Felestini, Laola. Is that Dageli Bakita? Is that Degelish Bakita Brahmala? And you shouldn't have a good thing. No, it's the kill. They've done.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

She's not a shirtshama, she's a B the C area, she suffraim Khameshanim, me Kair, me might be hard, the table, the Mashmauch, Kevin and Medina Palestini. And Shumut Shi Yehudim is the Qiyum Medini at Sma'i, Betoh, Medina, Islam Sharut Kazot. Yeskim le Kabel at Smaller, Escam Measuk Hazel, Shem Sayemet Collat Vyot, Enlay Manigim Kaele, when I mala metun, the Faisal Hussein, is Troyani, which will sell Israel, Ashmidali, Abbots, Maya then Vader, the Marbishnat, Alpine. Basiapnich to Adaspermin, Advarima, as Rhoyant Shemyen of Tam. Mashimayan of Tam Basov, the code called Hassel Otanopo. Autonomia is not Oslo Bed, I cut and paste shall autonomy, and shlaveshire. And Khagigota Aslara Becola, Bakar Britannia, Ashura, Ashura, Shela Ashura, Ahmed Efosh Kilochi Ot Gdolot, Bebannia, Beba Yariv, Yariv, Yariv, Shiv. Okay.