#981 פרופ' אהוד מנור | "היסטוריה זה בזבוז זמן" - למה אדריכלי אוסלו העלימו עובדות? פרק 2/6

פרק 2 מתוך מיני-סדרה היסטורית עם פרופ' אהוד מנור

בפרק זה של הפודקאסט עו"ד תמיר דורטל מארח את פרופסור אהוד מנור לשיחה על ההיסטוריה המדינית של הציונות והתהליכים הגיאופוליטיים שעיצבו את הסכסוך הישראלי-ערבי מתחילת ימי המנדט הבריטי ועד סוף מלחמת העצמאות. 
במהלך השיחה, פרופ' מנור סוקר את רצף האירועים ההיסטוריים ומציג תזה ביקורתית חריפה נגד מה שהוא מכנה "ההונאה העצמית" של ההנהגה הישראלית לדורותיה. הוא לוקח אותנו למסע היסטורי מרתק המתחיל בשנות העשרים עם תוכנית הקנטונים, עובר דרך מאורעות תרפ"ט, המרד הערבי הגדול וועדת פיל מ-1937, ומגיע עד לתוכנית החלוקה של האו"ם ב-1947 והסכמי שביתת הנשק ברודוס ב-1949. בכל הצמתים הללו, מנור חושף כיצד ההנהגה הציונית חזרה שוב ושוב על אותו דפוס חשיבה שגוי – האמונה שוויתור טריטוריאלי או פשרה דמוגרפית יובילו להכרת האויב ולסיום הסכסוך. 
המאזינים ייחשפו לפרטים היסטוריים מרתקים שלרוב אינם נלמדים בבתי הספר. האם ידעתם למשל על 60 אלף הפליטים היהודים שנעקרו מבתיהם במהלך מלחמת העצמאות? או על טבח האשורים בעיראק ששימש תמרור אזהרה מצמרר עבור הנהגת היישוב היהודי? כיצד הגיבו מנהיגים כמו חיים ויצמן, דוד בן גוריון ומשה שרת למדיניות הבריטית הבוגדנית, ומה הוביל את הערבים לדחות פעם אחר פעם כל הצעת פשרה, כולל כזו שהעניקה להם את רוב שטחי ארץ ישראל?
הפרק מציף שאלות נוקבות על העבר וההווה: האם אנחנו ממשיכים לדבוק בקונספציות כושלות רק משום שאנו מסרבים ללמוד מההיסטוריה? מדוע דמויות מפתח בהנהגה הישראלית בעבר זלזלו בלימוד ההיסטוריה, וכיצד הזלזול הזה תורגם להסכמים הרסניים דוגמת הסכם אוסלו? והאם האויב שניצב מולנו היום, באמת השתנה מאז ימי המופתי חאג' אמין אל-חוסייני בשנות השלושים? הצטרפו אלינו לשיחה עמוקה, מפוכחת וללא פילטרים, שתגרום לכם להסתכל על ההווה שלנו דרך משקפי העבר.

#פודקאסט #על_המשמעות

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Shalom, the Bukhim by Shove Alamut, Mulasim Okeev, like or sheft or the Sichha Kodemit Professor, Zazman, the Kenya Sottavadazot, M Hobam, the Mam Shikimita Sihashniya in Professor Hodman, the Mesgalachematzano, as Ba Seferavana Rishon, Vachov Dimli It Kavan Lekivunchel, Terpat, Amer, Tertav, Vel Lachamikin, Vidate Pil, Vulanam Shikh, Odaval, the Talouba Hespection. Shalom Professor.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Okay, Ottawa Ebekizra, Ebekizra, Vlachen, Bufanyhasi, Ebek Israel, Enbu Yachash Lechad L Hamesh, Elafashul Khamesh Lechad. Holofana Sukhilz Dermedni, Matarashilozim Rafsikli Bahel, May Aliud, Ki Aravim Betzamu, Anachno Kolium Sheover, Echomrima Yudim, Meolele Ole Kheneu Ole, Kodatma Bat Aravit, Meolele Ole Kochenu Ozel or Yored The Weitzmann is a Chuvai Kornitz, so let's motrib. Sad, Sadh, okay, Tishmaak, Yadida Machlaka, Girl. As Elushim Noctimon, we giddy, we have to be able to get the same. So, Imperial British, but we have to be able to get the same. Mumsha, Mkamuwanikablim Ruach Gav me your gun beshem, she can kwa believe Bidyuk Mitohotoon, Shabetzamar im Amashmout Shel Mifalat Zioniza Aravim Nifgaim as Bavadai, as Amaskanan Khonao Ilvahnu Yudim, can Benashaash Martin Bubershil Yamim, Itna Gedle Oneshama Vit al Aichman, Kevin She Yudim Law Mutimlaurig Rotskim Beknemidash al Aichman, Kizelomusarev, Adifli Shlachotollahovim, Otkine, Lochalilal Batei Midot Barivera, or Colmaco Machir Rotzhey Yudimigiule Machhei, Melchemito Lamashina, Zh Bubber, Shalavobtano, if Shalitva ker, Shalas Kim, Shallow. And the Bem Kodama Bachel Baltefkitch Rebnana Uma et Misimathayav, We Gaal Aarz Vilfchant Vishva, Vad Moton, Idmeli Berbayin Vichelosh, Lif Sik, La Sot Koloshavshaw, Vilhaber Afachim, V Lasot Hadvo de Hacheve, Echatz, V Pamachadvod Hachov, Ayitirati Bioteh, V inegamumitz Travel Brichalom, Shupa, Map Prinzot and Yomer Gambizman Prinzot Le Zaev. Kwabezmanamiti, Kolela Nashimat Noashlehem, andashimikovimata vodashulem Aimdashlachem e antionut moveet. Haker Mzim, Pitomish, Haker Hasuksaq, and the people who are not going to be able to get the people who are not going to be able to do this. By definition, Ishbarrov, Muslim Nutzrim, and Sukbet. So Machinazodpo, Hoda Britim, Lefia Tochnit A mandat Mishnei, Mosh Jabutinsky, Mm non Baitar, or Shirchel Baitar, the Gamshlakibuhadhagum, Egalon, Smith Gamba Small Ayu, and Shlema, Nikodati Husband, Lethilata Dio. Simlev, Chanvarba, Suratat, Bahamatskadol, day Shne Geographic, Mkatsarfati, Angli. Can of Rimshaw Samnim, the Hakak Bish Lushim Vish, Lobushim Vesh, Lushim Vishmo, and the M. Baro, as a Bliakhelik, okay, as a Khumrim, okay, a Kho Humrim. Canani a maximalist, Bamuvanazion territory, Lebenshalom, Lamitzreak Mayor Lagolan. You dim kanu mea elf dunam, mea elf dunam, kanum me elf dunam Bachoran. Zaladosi. Vakasha, Vakasha, Maprinazot, Vimanitrilot Bilon, Ilan Gavimod Khavivoli, Egalalon, Shabishim Vesheva, Martin Tes de Muchesh, Yalabalagan, Milhama. Gamla Israel, Gamla Edenim, Mula Tokpanut Surit, the Bishishim Vesheva. Okay, as an American, as Bushim the Shevan, Tohita Khalukah, Trofia. Tohita Khalukas, Shtek dot Ayodin. Anilonival Milish Tameshba. So Anilonival Mishut Mishut. Mak or maker, and so we can do it. But that would be the Dokhat's mouth, Dokmeratek, Shumzbir, Echa Kalkalai, Yudit, Mspia, Al Zurim, Shem Altaharata Aravim, Clumar Shikola Tanash, Koshera, Klita Kalkalish Laritz, and Loshumachiza, and Amufti, Dehag Butais Danuch, Mitrayan, Shumaberima, Monshia Vadawin Farage, Cola Sipora Kalkaliz at the roots, and Shumbayakalkalit, by Akhvarak Abaya. I'm Dashley Akhvarak Medinit, politic, and Shum inyan kalkali, Mapinazatomer Musa Alamim Akivon Afouch, but Am Shneemaskimimit. Musa Alamer animadif Pigu, a muftomer Gamkin, Ulomer anima difigu, and Ms. Yudim Barishit. Avdoot, Shema Mishaq, Baolama attic. Call the machine crazy, democratia, uh, Medina, and then we're not going to be able to shall feudalit, but a lot of you have the Mishpaha. Bever. Beaver, beaver. As Bamba Time Shiv Vish, Basefer Berlin Zenika, Nidham Til, Lizochama, Hakka Liv Dok, as a few Hitler Colombian, you would have otherwise, you can see cyberlockum. So the Hamas is terrible with Hitler. As we met the vote, we met Woodhead Vadat Wood a masterpiece of Mazbir Echa Kalkalai Lopogat by Shum of Kalkalai, Long Sh Lopogatella filu o Zeret la Teshvut Ravit Holofen a Tohnitazot Nophelet. V Belf Chamoch Lushim Vetesha mit Kaneset by Armand St. James Veda Meshut Snaat the Dimit Bakshim Lagidam Mim Umbrim Allah Ban Kudazot, Viteshwood, Arabim Umbrim Kamuvanita Efekh, Achorat Simsakamu Khletichalia Vity Shwood, Vahazan, Al Erit Israel, Smith Al Palestina, Medina, Aravi, Al Ponchila Shalum, animal, as Basifan, for Husam Shelchamushim veisha, Shivasa Bemai, get a Kritut. Hamechanim, Nigmar, Sefer Lavan, Israel, but the M. Lakir, Mlomit Naagim, Ba of Shani Shani Meth, min Shalagid Z mini Lakal, Smetai Gaisutamu, Lorak Shall Yudim Merit Israel, Lorak Nuatameris, the Vamodmashmauti, Ella Bihlal, Baama Yudim et Large, Hova Yudim, Lokulam Kamuvanish Tamid Tzadikim, Bala Makuma, and Vibonut Yudit, Mapitomi Yudimazikim Neshik, Mapitomiudimuskim, Mapitonken, the Soteric Kola, Waha Yuditch, Mashnikas, Orchai Sa, V Lambrita Kalkalot, the historic layoodim, Mapitom. As a child, popular reform is the same, and Sarbanut October Talena Talem and Dramatic Dramatic Mm parasha Bad Galeem, Shelness, Lavir, Ezrahit, Lyrod, Echovka Belumi, Apropos Nitam, Rush Lam Dina, Mizukara Met Parashit Bad Gale, Bad Gale, Bat Kwata, Altalena, Altalena, and the Lord, Aproposity.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Tovshekim, Rachok Moyev Tov Shakim, Rehok Moyev Karov. Kya? Kvia.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

Sid, the Omere Madatha, the neutral schmid. So I'm a Labour Brittany. As by the way, I'm short on the other. Hamishim Hamisha Khuzim ered a Mahravit, Ken Amahavit. Tacholish lot be colshaw because we've got to be able to get it gay soot, we should tefetchlokota politeot. Okay, Machloke Chikeneta, Vizcardi, and I'm not sure. As Botarze, Yodim Khazim, Aimatata Khalukashalaum Navam is show gadlut lev shla ulam sha'avas manikla yudimpitsuy, shagada o I metasrate tochnita khalukavu, a dogholsk the adraba of dash vada, biduk bemikre, yet yet salem lot barit, exodosigia, in colo drama, is dazeu, asomershim lo is dazeu masha. Okay, mm, bain, are batter of plitim, shwimbonia, blimas gun beuli, bayamatikon, uh, often, at the same time, it's a good thing. Mamas, I'm not going to be able to do that. Alsaf Amel Khama moved in Arabi, Israel, Palestina, as Bekha, Mufti, Midhimoto, as Bekha Mita Maton, Tatu Pragmati, Tavakazo, Thanach, and the Uh, Asya, Litmamesh. At the same time, you had similar, Benguron, Iukamayu Moshon Ayyuachim, Lozukhimot, Shem Hachani Kerrigo Lagid, Maukotev Bazi Khonochelo, Josh Oyoshua Nidmeli, Josh Kinushlo, Palmon. Josh Palmon, I am streaming Araim, Araviat, Allah, Mamelah, Mipulisham, Faklot Mumhela Aravim, but we have to be able to get the Aravim Shechel Makom, Arabic, Mr. Vimp, Mr. Vim Sham. February, by Zorroz, and the other, before Khakluta, um, uh, Itaplisha Aravit, uh, it's a very good thing. Apropos, the same thing, uh, the Simchagdola, as she was, and we have to use the same thing. Okay, as but I'm lef lefech, uh, to Masgrimla's menu, Tohnita Khaluk, but I'm not sure. But okay, Shapkulam, Lamdu, Milchamazara, Zalfat, Ekimu Igun, Shapamu Massui, Technology, or better than the Gam Pranatom, the Gamma of Dash, and the good, she's got a British British Germania, as I think Germania is British, British me lock me, um, yes, you batovalo optimized, gamim ravim vayudim, yakmutaf, viasuko mimekin. Kipsakol, kochot, mem khalashim, was interesse lechatef pool. But Lom Shemanim kutatmachel, wow, you know lechleam, and a shon, kachheret, can amapazot meat secret, rayon chel, shituf poolash and the gama mivne, a hukatishina, shtem democrat, the mukdaw, beforash, baitachaluka, okay, shten dinotleom, two state, Arab state, but you did mute Aravi, but you did, she tuf pool kali, yeshman genonim shukamimbishvil, kolmine, machlokot, benosim shel Hagira, Vahit Baelut, Vrimuzarim, Al Shupa meidimal ala optimiu Takdullah, we tochimelo tatzada yudi, doch Aravi, Masha Nashim Lokoodim, the Ayanison, Kodem, Biknemi Da, Bater Katan Vitzanuwa, Anglo Americanit. Lamazakh, Rakm Sibhat, Sh be toh, a Vada Anglo Americanit, Shamardi Reba me, Vadat Khakira, Baimanim, Baim American, by Anglaim Rutinem, Baimlach, Lil Motanous, Barek, Lachat, Politima, Kolhadm Dinah, Israel Kalichla Americaim, et Medi New Americaim, Israel, Americaim Mutradim Ilhamakara, and Tschemt Abritim Avalukal Makir, Nimbe Yvan, Beshushlav M Vatrim, Alatanuk was Americaim, Tzem Karhala Tamit Yavan, Milchmetrachim, Kit so Latlat Matimas Bur Berlin, Oshergadul. Shaf Shemegimlepo, Azoph Midabrim m Yudim, the Brim Arabim, Bhadma Mikrim, Ken Yoshiv Khaver Vada Yudim, Rayon Shemim Aravi, uh Akhiyan, or Karovish Phash al Hussein, a Mufti Nenu, a V al Khadma Makovim. As we show, the money is a very important thing. Okay, so Flyfis, and you merad, shalom, Mish Notashmonim, Snotoshivim, Mikaha Shishim Vesheva, Ufdota Masugaz, Mashnikram, Bol Belota Homrima, don't confuse me with facts. So we have to requisite the other thing. Had the Fim the Saifa Plitim Shahadayom Nikola idiot Arabic, Israel Meferahum, so Israelat Kafteth November, and the Mkurim Lachlata, Achlataat Shutashiva, Lotus Shiva, Hhlata Plitzha Pliti, Musah Rishima Ruka, Mhana Mshutafla, the Mashimushim Khwim, Loplitim Zainan, and the Him, so Kavanash.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:38

But we have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:40

Okay, the guy is the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:57

Okay, so we're not going to be able to do that. No, but I'm not going to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:06

Umnik, Israeli, the name. But Saifita Neshik is a very important thing to time, it could not shall shalom. So Milchama, I classify Milchamah, Milchama, Shvira, Vakat Ashiva, Sihot, Shwitaat Neshik, Shwitaat Neshek, Vadach Vitat Neshik, Bodek, Hai Shanao, Zmanashmoti, Shadvarim of Dim, Sharebassi Purimpob, Yerushalayim, Lazotla Nezira, Shnef Shinaim, Aoum Kilov Vadach Vitat Neshikana, Mamash Patrata, but Shanatadim, Talek. Apropos, as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:48

It's the four. I think we do.