Shelley and Mary are back for another interesting episode on the the “Taylor Swift Transit Effect.” We discuss interesting stats and facts from this phenomenon, some criticisms to looking at this event as a decider on changes for transit, and finally the big question: will these concert goers continue to take transit? What does it mean for women, non-binary folks, LGBTQIA+ folks when they take transit? How do we address the needs and wants of those people around transit and planning?
We discuss lots of really great topics in this episode and can’t wait for you to listen!
Sources from this episode:
Want to be a part of the podcast? Send in an email!
The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?
To share your experiences, email betterplannerspodcast@gmail.com
Your message might end up in one of the upcoming podcast episodes. You can be as anonymous or as identifiable as you want.
Where to find us:
Website: https://oregon.planning.org/community/betterplannerspodcast/
Instagram: @betterplanners
Shelley and Mary are back for another interesting episode on the the “Taylor Swift Transit Effect.” We discuss interesting stats and facts from this phenomenon, some criticisms to looking at this event as a decider on changes for transit, and finally the big question: will these concert goers continue to take transit? What does it mean for women, non-binary folks, LGBTQIA+ folks when they take transit? How do we address the needs and wants of those people around transit and planning?
We discuss lots of really great topics in this episode and can’t wait for you to listen!
Sources from this episode:
Want to be a part of the podcast? Send in an email!
The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?
To share your experiences, email betterplannerspodcast@gmail.com
Your message might end up in one of the upcoming podcast episodes. You can be as anonymous or as identifiable as you want.
Where to find us:
Website: https://oregon.planning.org/community/betterplannerspodcast/
Instagram: @betterplanners
So Shelly, what is your favorite Taylor Swift song or lyric, and bonus points if you can make it relate to urban planning.
Shelley Denison:Taylor swift has a surprisingly high number of song lyrics about trains.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Ooh, you're right. That is true.
Shelley Denison:Uh, on 1989, New Romantics, we're all bored, we're all so tired of everything, we wait for trains that just aren't coming because the United States does not have adequate passenger rail infrastructure.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:That is true.
Shelley Denison:What about you? What's your, what's your favorite Taylor Swift song slash lyric?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:One of my favorite albums from hers is 1989. And she has a song called out of the woods. And I just think maybe she's talking about leaving the urban growth boundary line.
Shelley Denison:You're listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:There's a couple places you can find us. We have our website on the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association, as well as Instagram, where we're at Better planners. Planners is plural.
Shelley Denison:We also have a voicemail inbox, uh, you can call in, leave us comments about the things that we talk about, ask us questions, uh, we are particularly interested in the complicated stuff. Um, the, the, You know, what, what we sometimes call the wicked problems or the wicked questions, the things that don't have easy answers. We are asking specifically for our next episode for your experiences, your questions about workplace dynamics. What kinds of things do you need to handle or need to deal with as a planner? The number for that voicemail is 503 433 7545, and you can be as anonymous as you want to be.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:And speaking of voicemails, we did actually get a response from our last episode, which was on the 15 Minute City Conspiracy Theory, which, if you haven't listened yet, go listen to it. Um, we had a really great response from a person in the Phoenix area, so that's awesome. We're getting people outside of Oregon, too. We're just gonna put in a quick clip from that, and then we'll discuss our thoughts on the on the response.
Listener - Ryan:Hi, Shelley and Mary. My name is Ryan Wozniak. I'm a planner in the Phoenix metro area, work in transportation quite often, and I was struck by your question about what to do with public trust and planning. So. Wanted to respond to the question, what do we do? And it's not an easy one. That's why you posed it. And it's definitely one that deserves a lot more conversation and introspection from our industry. My criticism or my critique in terms of the messaging is that there's a lot of concern over messaging, but it's not necessarily always like, how can we message this way in a way that people get it from. If they're just now starting to pay attention to regional transportation issues all the way into becoming very familiar with regional transportation issues, it's more of like, how do we just couch this in a way that's not going to have political blowback and rather than being transparent and understanding, folks will get stuck or mired in the concepts of messaging for not clarity messaging for. Acceptance. And so if we're trying just to avoid controversy with every messaging and not necessarily focusing on the positive sides of clarity, then I think we missed the boat. The example that I can think of with regional transportation is always mired in this congestion reduction conversation rather than, you know, Kind of bringing people along the idea of induced demand in more lanes and freeways doesn't necessarily get you the quality of life that you need. And so they get this mixed message of, we want to battle congestion. Yeah. We want road diets. Hmm. Something seems amiss here. Why would we want both of those things? Those seem counter productive in, in having both. So unless we're willing to have a more open and broader conversation, something Brings people into being contact sensitive with their transportation investments and how different region or different parts of the regions are going to need different strategies depending on their growth timeline and their maturity. That's my long explanation as to one example of where I think we might be able to do better as planners trying to communicate to the general public with full transparency and bringing people along. Thanks.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, I think, I think Ryan makes a really, really, really important point.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah.
Shelley Denison:The importance of balancing, or the importance of, as he was describing it, prioritizing transparency and clarity more than just messaging for political palatability.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:We don't want to make it too simple. Yeah, I think the simplicity of things can actually make things more complicated.
Shelley Denison:Mm. Do you have an example of that?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, it's like the term road diet and the example of like dealing with congestion. For someone who Maybe is very new to transportation Theory of things like why would we make less lanes to reduce congestion? It's very it's like a very hard concept to understand if you don't if somebody doesn't tell you from the very beginning like okay, here's Here's what happens when congestion happens and here what is what, you know, it's almost like you have to do a mini lesson with folks, which takes more time and effort, but in the long run will help in my opinion.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, I almost wonder if the concept of how we've branded the 15 minute city That we haven't done, uh, and we, meaning like, urban planners in general, haven't done a great job of explaining exactly what a 15 minute city is, and kind of maybe getting into some of those, you Details, getting a little granular and instead thinking like, we wanna stay like super high level. We don't wanna make it complicated. We don't wanna make it, you know, difficult to understand. And maybe it's because of that, that it's sort of created this whole thing with the conspiracy theory around it.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah. One of the cities that I used to work for, we did a planning 1 0 1 course. Like every quarter we would try and do it and then the pandemic happened and that kind of was hard to do and we tried to do it during, through Zoom, but where we would have the community come and we would give them a really like rundown of Here's planning in Oregon, best ways for you to submit public comments, best ways to understand public notices, things like that. So it felt a little less intimidating and they had some basic understanding to go into any sort of either plan, proposal, development idea within the community so that they felt a little more empowered as well to understand it all.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, that's so important. I think that's a good lesson. I think that's a good lesson to remember. That it's important to keep things appropriately simple. It's important to keep things simple enough that anybody can understand them in a reasonable amount of time. But we can't sacrifice transparency for the sake of simplicity. I think that that's a, I think that's a really important point. I'm really glad Ryan brought that up. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it when we get responses.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, it's so exciting. It's so exciting that somebody in Phoenix is... It's listening to us. And it's not just my mom. Again, if you have a comment about something we talk about in one of our episodes or an idea or a critique or a question, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 503 433 7545.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:And we also have an email address as well, so it's betterplannerspodcast at gmail. com. So you can also write in any response, too.
Shelley Denison:Mary, what are we talking about today?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:We are going to be talking about the phenomenon that is called the Taylor Swift Transit Effect. And it's not just about Taylor Swift. And I want you to come in with an open mind. An open heart and understand that we're not just going to be talking about Taylor Swift. You don't have to like her music. You don't have to like her as a person. That's okay. We're talking about the phenomenon that came around her big U. S. tour. There were actually a couple of U. S. stadium tours that were happening at the same time. So it was Taylor Swift and Beyonce were kind of the two main ones. And there was some really interesting phenomenons that happened around transit through those stadium concerts.
Shelley Denison:Mary, um, hypothetically, let's assume that I'm not a Swiftie, who, who is Taylor Swift?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Taylor Swift is probably, I would say, there's good facts and backing behind that, the largest and most successful musician in the world. Especially currently. You've probably heard, if you listen to pop music, you've probably heard one of her songs on the radio. She's, she's very popular. And from that, she had her Eras Tour, was the title of her stadium tour. It was a North American stadium tour, 27 shows across 20 US cities, from March of 2023 to August of 2023, so it's very recent. It is the highest grossing North American tour of all time, which gives you an idea of how many people were attending these concerts. And in these U. S. cities, she would have multiple nights. So it would be two nights, it would be three nights, and I think in her last city, which was L. A., she had six nights. And these were like sold out shows every single time. So it's like millions of people were attending these concerts.
Shelley Denison:Mary, did you go to the ERAs tour?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Well, I'm so glad you asked. Yes, I did. Seattle night one was where I was at. I have... Very, very good memories from that tour. I also have, like, thoughts and ideas based on the Seattle transit, and maybe some of the things they could have done better.
Shelley Denison:Mm hmm.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:To help get people in and out of the area quicker, but it was a really great show. In my opinion,
Shelley Denison:so what does, uh, what does public transit have to do with the Eras tour and her concerts this summer?
Mary Heberling-Creighton:So I'll start off with some, some stats here. So the Chicago Transit Authority said that it provided 5. 63 million rides for the week of June 4th through the 10th, which is the highest number since the start of the pandemic in 2020. And they said that Taylor Swift's sold out show at their soldier field contributed to the spike. Then in Atlanta, nearly 140, 000 people packed their Rapid Transit Authority system to see Taylor Swift over the three nights, and that's more than three times the number of riders on a typical weekend for the stations around the stadium that the show is at. And then finally, in Minneapolis, Metro Transit provided nearly 356, 000 rides between Friday, June 23rd, and Sunday, June 25th, with people traveling for both the Eras Tour and the Twin Cities Pride Festival. Light rail ridership was nearly double on Friday and Saturday, and the city extended its hours of service due to demand. So, from these stats, we can tell that there was clearly a lot of transit ridership that happened and more so than some of these places have had in years, um, especially since, uh, the pandemic. And it's been dubbed the term the Taylor Swift Transit Effect. Basically, what has been happening is public transit ridership nationwide has been down about 30%. from pre pandemic levels, and although some cities have recovered more quickly, there are still some that just haven't recovered from that time when there was low ridership. And many of these Taylor Swift fans took mass transit because they believed it would be faster than driving. So again, all of these concerts were in big stadiums where like the football teams, NFL teams would play. These are like huge stadiums. And public transit agencies saw Taylor Swift concerts as an opportunity to draw writers and agencies made a push to get Swift fans to take mass transit ahead of shows. So they would add extra service and routes to meet the demand. Some transit authorities even used fun puns to get people to take transit. So in Philadelphia they said, SEPTA is helping writers shake off transit congestion. And if you didn't know, Shake It Off is one of Taylor Swift's most well known songs. So, a lot of cities where she played extended hours to accommodate late concert goers well beyond their normal hours, and like I said, in LA, she held six sold out shows, so Metro, their extended transit hours, ran extra buses, shuttles, and trains. And other transit agencies say that they've experienced up to triple the ridership for Taylor Swift concerts compared to other large scale events. So this is why they've dubbed it the Taylor Swift Transit Effect. It isn't just Taylor Swift, though. Like I mentioned earlier, Beyoncé was also holding a nationwide stadium concert tour. And there was even like a Like news about this happening where she herself paid the metro system in Washington DC to ensure that they could run after hours So that concert goers would be able to take transit after her concert.So it's not just Taylor Swift that it has been doing this and the concerts there But it seems to be a theme that these Women, musicians who have quite a large audience have just been demolishing transit numbers for people to attend these concerts, which is very, very interesting and something that I think we can learn from.
Shelley Denison:So let's talk about some of the lessons. That planners and policy makers can take away from the Taylor Swift transit effect this summer. So this is particularly apropos in kind of the, what some might call the post pandemic world. As transit agencies are trying to recover from the global pandemic, a lot of Transit experts are saying that all of those Swifties taking mass transit offer some really important lessons for transit planners and policy makers on how to adapt and accommodate transit riders in the post pandemic world.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, so one of the, in my research on this topic, which was actually really fascinating, there were a ton of articles about this, which is so interesting why this phenomenon became like such a big thing that people were talking about, which I think we can discuss a little bit later too, but there was, have been a lot of Let's just say very women's centric things that have been happening over the past last few months that I think that I think people are catching on to and trying to understand better. And obviously this is, this is part of that, but one of the things in my research that people brought up, and this is from a lecture of transportation policy and planning at MIT. And also the former Massachusetts Secretary of Transportation, this is Jim Elosi, saying that public transit agencies can hold on to these riders by running more frequent service at off peak hours and weekends. So, essentially give people more options. So cater to riders who aren't going to offices every day, but still work outside their homes, at coffee shops and other places. And the notion that this nation functions on a 9 to 5 work mentality is over, essentially, he said. And transit systems need to adapt to these moments. So, he's saying that, and he quotes, What Taylor Swift is doing, and I thank her for this, although I don't know she intended to, is proving that if you give people better, reliable transit alternatives, they'll take it. They would prefer to do that than be stuck in soul crushing traffic. Which is totally what I noticed when I, when I was at the Seattle concert. I mean, Seattle has pretty decent transit, I'll give them that. They did focus all of their transit onto their Light rail system, which probably was a little too, I don't know if they really realized what was going to happen. There was also a Mariners game that was happening during that weekend as well. So, and those two stadiums are right next to each other. So. The NFL stadium that Taylor Swift was in and then the baseball stadium are next to each other. So you're having two really large crowds trying to go back and forth to each other. Also the like demographics between the two crowds were so different and so interesting to see kind of that, that difference that happened there. But yeah, everyone was taking transit and I think a lot of places realized that they needed to up their game to be able to accommodate these, these concerts and these events way more than they had before. And I think the places that really thought about this ahead of time and really decided to try and provide as many options for people probably handled the influx of folks a lot better than some other places.
Shelley Denison:I really like what this professor, Jim Elosi, said about the notion that this is a nation that functions in a nine to five work mentality is over and transit systems should adapt. It's something that I think is really interesting about this whole conversation is how it's primarily girls and women who are the ones creating this huge demand for transit to and from Taylor Swift concerts. I remember reading an article about a decade ago about some urban planners in Germany who were really interested in what would it look like to plan a city specifically for the needs of girls and women. And they found a lot of really interesting things, including the idea of, you know, peak ridership of transit is at 8 to 9 in the morning and then 5 to 6 at night is not as true for women as it is for men because women are primarily caretakers of children and the elderly. And so when you're needing to Take somebody to the doctor, or take somebody to a daycare, or go grocery shopping, you have more transit needs than somebody who's just trying to commute to and from work. And then it's also the needs of, instead of home to work, and then work to home, it's home to daycare, to the grocery store, to the pediatrician's office, to the library, right? So it's, it's a completely different kind of model of trip taking when you really take into account the, the fact that because we live in a world that disproportionately places the burden of care work on women, women use public transit differently than men do.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, and I would say that I don't know the demographics offhand, but it would be interesting to know, typical transit ridership, what are the demographics? Does it skew more male oriented? When are they seeing... Different types of folks take transit and, you know, what, what can they learn from that and have they adjusted to it? It seems like it's been so, it's been so focused on this nine to five issue. And I feel like the, the pandemic really did kind of like just explode that and not just transit, but in like all areas, really, that it just really highlighted the fact that maybe there are things that we need to be thinking about differently in regards to some of these things. And I know that You know, for these big events that were happening over the summer, transit authorities were really excited because they thought this would be a good chance to show first time riders or occasional riders the value of transit and an opportunity to attract more regular riders. But I would also argue this is, this was like a big one time event that was happening, and if they're gonna just assume that, Okay, they took the metro to this concert one time. Now they're gonna be really Happy to take transit again, but they don't change anything else about the way that they do their transit I think that could be a misstep and you know, I think the big question here from all of this is You know, we see these big numbers in transit, but like, will they keep using transit? I think that is the big lesson here that we really need to address and talk about more.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think, I think that's it. That's a really important point. And then I think this also, this phenomenon also reveals It's something really interesting about the concept of choice ridership, right, which is this idea of people who could drive, right, could park, but instead transit is the more attractive option. And so they choose to use transit not because they need to, but because it's more appealing than driving and trying to find parking. Yeah. And so I think it's really important for transit agencies and transit planners to look at, okay, what are the things about these one time huge Taylor Swift concerts that made taking transit, more appealing. And if I had to guess, it would be, there, there wasn't enough parking for all of these Taylor Swift fans to all drive and park at the stadium.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Which, you know, is usually intentional, they do that on purpose, which completely makes sense to me. They want to get people to take transit to these big events at these stadiums.
Shelley Denison:Exactly, which 100 percent demonstrates that if you Under supply parking, you are likely not going to have the problem of people not showing up. Instead, people will show up, they'll just find a different way to get there.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yes. Yeah.
Shelley Denison:Yeah.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:So another thing, and you sort of alluded to this as well, another thing to note is that a majority of these folks that were attending these concerts were women, non binary and gender non conforming folks, LGBTQIA plus folks, and people of color. And so, it's kind of like the complete opposite of ridership to those stadiums when sports events are played, which is very typically male dominated and heterosexual. So, it's important to understand, okay, so, we have this one big event, and it's causing this demographic shift in who normally takes transit, and what can we actually learn from them about that, and understand what are things that they would need to be able to take transit again. And I think there's a really interesting point there in terms of the type of folks that were taking transit to these events and the opportunity to showcase what it could be like for those people when they're in an environment that they feel safe and safe and comfortable. Because when we talk about transit ridership, There is significantly an issue of safety for a lot of folks. A lot of women, a lot of non binary folks, a lot of LGBTQ plus people. Significantly, I think, there's data to back me up in saying this, experience unsafe issues while they take transit at least one time in their life, or maybe multiple times. I personally think that if you ask any woman who's ever taken transit, even occasionally, they will have a story for you of not feeling safe, even harassment, when they've taken transit. So, it's gonna be really important to look at these events, understand, one, obviously, there wasn't parking, but if there was parking, I would have been very curious with that demographic, if they had a, if they had the option to drive and park, I wonder if more people would have done that. Just out of the fear of transit and there's a lot to unpack in that for sure which We're not really gonna go into all of that, but I think it's something that is like a harsh reality of this situation. I saw multiple videos of people saying wow, I didn't realize I didn't like crowds. I just didn't like men.
Shelley Denison:Yes.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Because these yeah, these crowds were were mostly women mostly non binary people mostly LGBTQ plus people and They felt so safe in that environment. And what does that tell us as a community, you know? There's a difference in being able to take transit and feel safe versus, you know, just like in, in general, like how we, how we, how we interpret society. And what is the lens that we're viewing things through? And is it the right lens to be viewing things through?
Shelley Denison:Yeah, I think that's, that's such an important conversation that we need to have in transit planning is how do we increase not only Actual safety, but also the perception of safety. You know, as much of a, uh, fangirl of public transit as I am, you know, with Portland's system I'll take the bus anywhere, right? I'll take the bus anywhere. I will avoid the light rail, avoid the MAX, if I can help it.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yes. Yeah, I've heard that multiple times.
Shelley Denison:Yes, I hate writing the MAX. I feel like every time I have riden the light rail, it's just something very uncomfortable happens. Whether it's somebody behaving unpredictably, somebody sort of like directing some kind of aggression towards me or towards another person. Yeah, from where I live, I can get, you know, the, the, the blue line into downtown is maybe 40 minutes. That's the light rail is maybe 40 minutes, or I can take a bus, which is about an hour and 15 minutes and I'll take the bus, right? I'll spend the extra 25 minutes. It's 35 minutes on the bus to avoid taking the light rail. Yeah, so the conversation around safety, especially when it comes to the experience of women on public transit, is a really important conversation that planners in the transit world ought to be having.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, and I think there's like some valid criticism to also acknowledge in all of this too, um, with these stadium concerts. You know, these concerts were not cheap. So those that were attending were not lower income. Uh, they were probably middle income, upper middle income and upper class. For Taylor Swift, I think it was, it's safe to say it was predominantly white. And then for Beyonce, there were definitely more people of color, but for overall, for these concerts, it definitely was gravitated towards women, non binary folks, gender non conforming folks, and LGBTQIA plus, plus people of color. So while it's not going to be a perfect sample of how we can Look at these issues that are happening. I think it's a really interesting place to start at least, but then it needs to go further than this because it's not just... transit is, is a public good it's for literally everyone and so it's something that we need to look at carefully when we, when we talk about these things and, you know, I think it's valid criticism to, to mention this for this topic that we're, we're having here because it predominantly people who do take transit regularly are lower income. And so that is a demographic here that we are probably missing. And so I don't want to assume that these concerts are like the end all be all of something that we can learn from, but I do think that it is part of the story that we need to be looking at.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, and I think that kind of reveals, uh, an important limitation of what kind of information we can get from studying or analyzing the Taylor Swift transit effect. Because it is... kind of yet another instance in this larger pattern of catering decision making in the public sector to those upper middle and upper income transit riders. And once again, Not really taking into account the, the needs or the desires of, you know, lower income folks who are more often on regular days, on non Taylor Swift concert days, the people who are riding transit. I think that that is a, a really unfortunately common thing that happens. in transit planning, where we are, we are wanting to attract who society has deemed more desirable, right? People who are affluent, people who are white, and ignoring the needs of people who aren't.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:So I will also put out there that there are some Um, transit organizations that are doing some really great work around this topic that we've been talking about, for example, actually saw this on LinkedIn, which was great. Um, it was just kind of like a fortuitous thing that I saw before we decided to record this podcast. Alicia Trost, the chief communications officer at BART. So BART is the transit authority in the San Francisco Bay Area. So they are launching their second phase of Not One More Girl, which is a campaign against sexual harassment on transit. So the quote that she provided in LinkedIn was saying,"Winning riders back starts with safety. Seeing safety through the eyes of girls is a necessary place to start. And they also are wanting to improve safety for women, girls and gender expansive, gender nonconforming people on transit.
Shelley Denison:Yeah, you know, that's so important. I'm so glad that Bart, in particular, is having that conversation.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, and I mean, I think it's really important that We don't beat around the bush on this. I have multiple stories of harassment on transit and I think we need to talk about it more. I think even though we are planners, we do support and want to provide transit, there is a harsh reality of being a woman, being a non binary person, being LGBTQ and as much as you may want to take transit, your safety is going to be a priority. And so if we can't address those things, I don't know how we're really going to have like this amazing transit option for folks if we don't take into account the stories and the lens, and see it through a lens of these folks, because if we don't, you're not going to get them. They're just not going to go. Even, even if they love transit, they will not take it. The unfortunate reality too is like some of it, there's only so much control transit can do.
Shelley Denison:Yeah.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:You know, a lot of it is society and that's a much bigger conversation to have.
Shelley Denison:And I think that that really illustrates how so many topics in planning are so intertwined with each other. That a lot of the issues surrounding not having adequate housing, not having adequate behavioral health and mental health services, that those issues Play into people in vulnerable situations, people with vulnerable people, people in vulnerable situations because of, you know, mental illness or, or substance abuse issues or behavioral health issues, not having access to what they need and thereby not being able to act in a safe way on public transit. It's all connected. Yeah. It's all connected.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah. And I think we've been heavily focused on transit here, but I think there are some takeaways we can provide for planners who are in non transportation fields, which you and I are not transit planners. Um, we both have taken transit. We know a lot about transit just because we're interested in it, but we personally are not transit planners. So I guess take that with a grain of salt when we talk about these things. But I think there's a really interesting segue we can do when we talk about planning for other parts of a community as well. And I think there was a really interesting anecdote that you talked about to me before when we were discussing this episode around youth planning, and how it predominantly focuses on very male, cis, heterosexual opportunities for, for youth and planning and what does that actually mean?
Shelley Denison:Yeah, I've been reading through this really great book called Feminist City by Leslie Kern, and she talks about all of the ways in which women use cities, and she has this great chapter about Girls, but adolescent and teenage girls. I'm just gonna read a little bit of this."Outside of the movies, the needs and wants of girls and young women are almost completely ignored in architecture and planning. When communities advocate for spaces for youth, the kind of spaces they come up with are skate parks, basketball courts, and hockey arenas. In other words, spaces that have boys in mind as users, and where girls have trouble finding access, acceptance, and safety. When Swedish architecture firm White Architecture actually approached teenage girls to design scale models of public space, the girls came up with places for sitting together face to face, protected from weather and wind, to see without necessarily being seen, a sense of intimacy without being constrictive, and most of all, to be able to leave an imprint on their city. Despite the lack of attention to their needs, girls do use urban spaces, and in a variety of creative ways. Geographer Mary Thomas studies how girls use public space in cities, querying how they resist, and also reproduce, gendered norms through their patterns of hanging out in various consumption spaces. Subject to more spatial control than boys, Girls struggle to find places to hang out. They must develop their own strategies for avoiding adult surveillance and gaining permission to explore, including using the power of friendship to assuage parental fears about girls alone. Girls can even work together to make direct claims on the city. For example, Girls and Hanoi formed a collective to create zines to educate bus drivers and passengers about girls safety from harassment on public transit. In Kampala, a youth collective fought to improve hygiene in the city, as well as more walkable infrastructure to make sure girls could continue to go to school or work." I love this idea that You just need to ask girls, you need to ask girls, what kinds of spaces do you want to see? What kinds of spaces would be the most useful for you in cities? And something that I reveal that I love about that anecdote of that Swedish architecture firm talking to girls is this idea of we want the kind of infrastructure that helps scaffold our relationships. We want, we want the kind of stuff that facilitates Friendships that facilitates platonic intimacy with our friends. That's what we want. I think that that is so powerful. And that, that is just something to just, I guess, like, bring this all together. That's what I love about Swifties. Right? Like, that's, that's just what I love. This whole summer, this whole summer, I feel like, has just been a girls girl summer. You know? And I love it.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, with, like, the Taylor Swift stuff, but also with the Beyoncé concerts, as well as the Barbie movie, which is, I think, one of the highest grossing movies of... Especially, like, of this year.
Shelley Denison:Um, and the, the Women's, the Women's World Cup.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Oh, and the Women's World cup. Absolutely.
Shelley Denison:Mm hmm.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah. And I think it just proves that when you provide opportunities for women to partake in society, they're gonna do it. They're gonna do it, and they're gonna do it really loudly and really proudly. Yeah.
Shelley Denison:And, and, um, Yeah, women.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, but I the biggest takeaway I'm noticing here is take the lens away from maybe what you normally think and just just ask just ask what these people who are have historically been a minority, Ask them how they use the world and what is their ideal way of using the world and start from there. Because When you were talking about, you know, the idea of teenage girls wanting to create spaces to, to basically have friendship, to create relationships, that's gonna benefit everyone. I mean, it's not just something that women could use, but it's like Teenage boys could also probably use the ability, you know, not every teenage boy wants to go to a skate park. They probably would also love to have spaces where they can create relationships and friendships together, you know. Same with non binary folks, same with LGBTQ I mean, I think even more so. I mean, those are the folks that we really need to be talking about too, as well. Because... Their lens of what they need and want it's also going to be different. This is a really big lesson that I think we all need to kind of look at and really self analyze because like I myself Like, when you told me that quote from the Feminist City book, I was like, I never thought about that before. And I'm a woman. I never thought about, like, yeah, when we talk about youth planning, it's always about skate parks. And like, even, even though I'm not a skater, I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. This is a great idea. But it just never occurred to me that I was like, that's really tailoring one group of people, or maybe a couple of groups of people. But like, it's... Should we maybe expand the idea of what youth planning is beyond these, these skate parks and basketball courts and things like that?
Shelley Denison:Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think, you know, as planners, we can also learn the lesson of not just ask, not just listen, but also take them seriously. It seems like anything that invokes the name of Taylor Swift... is like being asked to be dismissed. And being asked to not be taken seriously. And what I love about this is how it says the things that primarily teenage girls are into, the things that they get excited about, the things that energize them, should be taken seriously. They aren't frivolous just because teenage girls are really into them.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:And I think the billions of dollars that the Barbie movie, I don't know if it's billions, but like, I think it's very high up there. The Barbie movie just also highlights the fact that you provide an opportunity that's predominantly women focused, and we'll, we'll do it. We'll go. We'll spend the money. You know, the joke has also been that like, Taylor Swift and Beyonce have saved the economy over the summer, but like the joke I feel like is partially And, like, something we should really acknowledge. Like, when you provide us with opportunities that we love and we want to enjoy, and we want to spend it with our friends and our community, we're gonna spend our money and do that. I think there's a lot to really take from this, and I would love to hear people's comments on this. I think there's some really important topics that, that we could go further with this on, for sure. This is kind of just, like, one area that we've started talking about this, but I would love, love, love, love to hear people's thoughts on this as well. Cause again, we're both women, we have our own lenses as well. So, I would love to get lenses from other folks as well. And we'll also provide sources to all of this data that we have provided, as well as the book that you mentioned earlier, we'll provide that in the show notes for this episode as well.
Shelley Denison:Oh my gosh, I just found this on Reddit.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Yeah.
Shelley Denison:I love this. This person talking about how Taylor Swift uses metaphors of trains and cars.
Mary Heberling-Creighton:Oh my gosh.
Shelley Denison:Um,"Taylor likes to use cars as a metaphor for how a relationship is going and who is taking charge of the relationship. Her use of trains is similar, but in a subtle nuance. See, cars can go anywhere they want, but think about how a train moves. One direction, straight ahead, any quarters taken are predetermined. Therefore, there are very few opportunities for a train to change its path. Trains in Swiftland, therefore, are the trajectory of a relationship and where it would lead if you take that train."
Mary Heberling-Creighton:I mean, what did I tell you? The greatest songwriter of our generation.