Better Planners Podcast
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Better Planners Podcast
Urban Planning and Neurodiversity
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Shelley and Mary are back for another fascinating discussion around urban planning and neurodiversity. In this episode they interview Dr. Gala Korniyenko, who received her PhD at The Ohio State University. Her research explores the nexus of urban design, neuroscience, and the planning process. More specifically, she focuses on urban planning and autism.
Sources:
- "Autism Planning and Design Guidelines 1.0", APA PAS Memo: https://www.planning.org/publications/document/9153208/
- "When Every Day is Sensory Overload", Planning Magazine: https://www.planning.org/planning/2018/oct/sensoryoverload/
- "Learn, Play, Thrive—Design Guidelines and Toolkit of Therapeutic Gardens for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder", 2020 ASLA Student Awards: https://www.asla.org/2020studentawards/1647.html
- "ASPECTT* The Design Index", Architecture for Autism: https://www.autism.archi
- "When We Design for Autism, We Design for Everyone", Metropolis: https://metropolismag.com/viewpoints/when-we-design-for-autism-we-design-for-everyone/
- "Neurodiversity in Planning - Autism Friendly Environments", Royal Town Planning Institute (webinar): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO3X1P4zYmc
- "Hiring Neurodiverse People to Enhance Planning Teams", APA Planning Blog: https://www.planning.org/blog/9226561/hiring-neurodiverse-people-to-enhance-planning-teams/
- Air Travel and Autism: https://thearc.org/our-initiatives/travel/
- "Weston Recognized as an Autism Friendly Community", Western, Florida: https://www.westonfl.org/Home/Components/News/News/1003/18?arch=1&npage=2
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You're listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton.
Shelley DenisonAnd I'm Shelly Dennison.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYou can find us on Instagram at better planners, planners is plural, on the webpage for the Oregon APA Chapter, and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms.
Shelley DenisonYou can also get in touch with us by sending an email to betterplannerspodcast at gmail. com. We also want to thank one of our podcast volunteers, Caroline Crisp, for the extensive research she did on this topic for this episode. She is a senior transportation planner working in Oregon, and she is super passionate about Oregon's Safe Routes to School program.
Mary Heberling-CreightonShelley, what are we talking about today?
Shelley DenisonI have been so excited about this topic since I pitched it to you as a podcast idea. So today we're talking about Urban planning and neurodiversity. So if you are not familiar with the term neurodiversity, a big picture definition is that it's a term that's used to describe differences in the way that people's brains work, um, it describes the idea that people experience and interact with the world around them in a lot of different ways. And it's a particularly useful framework, uh, within the autism community to Variations in cognitive function, variations in, um, in the ways that our brains work. So we are interviewing today, uh, a friend of mine, uh, former classmate of mine, Dr. Gala Korniyenko. Gala has a PhD in city and regional planning from the Ohio state university. She graduated in May of 2023. And her research explores the nexus of urban design, neuroscience, and the planning process. More specifically, she focuses on urban planning and autism. She was one of the authors of APA's Autism Planning and Design Guidelines, which we will link in the show notes. And she currently serves on the Workforce Development Board for an organization called HAAPE, which stands for Helping Adults with Autism Perform and Excel. If you're interested in this topic, she will be on a panel at APA's national conference this April in Minneapolis. The name of the panel is Designing Public Facilities for the Neurodiverse Community. That's going to be on Saturday, April 13th, uh, from 11 a. m. to 11:45. Gala! Privyet!
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoPrivyet! Duzhe rada tebe bachete. Uh, so I just said, uh, I am great to see you in Ukrainian.
Shelley DenisonAwesome. Gala, welcome. We're so excited to have you here. We're so excited to talk to, talk with you about this. This is such an interesting topic because it seems pretty new in the planning world. Um, it seems like something that planners have just recently started talking about. Do you think so? Do you think that's correct?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoUh, yes, I would say so. I would say that, uh, planning is lagging behind in terms of incorporating disability and, you know, like, planning process and planning in general. I would say that geographers were ahead of us, um, and also architects because they are focusing on, you know, confined environments. And I think it's probably easier to control than planning in complex world. But there is similarities, I would say, with autism spectrum. And the planning. Because why it's called spectrum, and this is what autistic, um, friends would tell me. If you meet one autistic person, you met one autistic person, right? So there's like variety. That's why it's neurodiversity, because it's a diverse needs and diverse peculiarities. And similar with planning, right? Because planning as a field is so comprehensive and complex. Uh, and then interwined, uh, we have people focus on transportation, housing, um, sustainability, but overall it's such a complex field. So I think there's some similarities in that regard, uh, so maybe that's why, um, It's kind of, if you look at what is, um, done already, what was done already in this area of urban environment and now it is on area diversity, it's like pieces, you know, it's, for example, landscaping, changes in landscaping or changing playgrounds or schools for kids. And how we approached, uh, this research at Ohio State University Milton School of Architecture, looking at this more broadly.
Shelley DenisonYeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's a really good point. That planning is such a complex field, and it has so many different areas, so many different elements that are involved in planning. Where do you see You know, some of those challenges, some of those obstacles, uh, that are faced by people with autism that can be addressed by urban planning?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo my dissertation research was focusing on participation in particular, uh, because, uh, you know, public participation in one of our tools and we govern in democratical society and all of our plans, everything has to be consulted with constituencies. So I was focusing on, uh, you know, more specific, how the planning meetings are organized. Are they inclusive of people who are not typical, neurotypical, meaning those who don't have ADHD, PTSD, autism, and other sensory, um, differences? And I was asking planners, How they accommodate, in general, people with disabilities when they have meetings. So, like, broadly, how planning and disability is related, in terms of participation. So, the first thing that comes to mind is ADA accessibility, and it's because we have ADA from 90s, people already aware of that, everybody can name you curb cuts, ramps, all of that, like, you know, places where meetings are conducted. But then when I, uh, I ask next question about autism accommodation, sensory, um, issues that people might have during the meetings, what kind of meetings might be prohibitive for people with sensory overload to attend. There is less knowledge. Um, most of the knowledge comes of personal experiences, so planners um knowing someone with autism, autistic themselves, have relatives with autism, grandchildren or, um, kids. So this is where it comes from, like, as we thought, our cognitive abilities are limited, we are not supercomputers, so, and also planning is right, it's priority and focus, how we focus. So, because it's related to you and you know it, or you are autistic or, uh, have ADHD, it's more likely that you're aware of that. Otherwise, it's not common. You know, it's not common practice.
Shelley DenisonRight. So, what are some of the ways that Either you found in your dissertation work, or you found in other research, that planners can be more inclusive of neurodiverse community members, uh, in, in the public participation process.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo, uh, the question I was asking about public participation, and the tricky part of it was how you can be inclusive of diverse representation of people, but then not be tokenistic. Right? And also considering that people sometimes don't want to disclose their disabilities, especially if it's an invisible disability, right?
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo if you meet someone first time, it's not visible like physical disabilities, right? You might not know that person is autistic. And some autistic people also masking, which is very hard and tiring. You know, like to put this mask to pretend who you are not. Yeah. And it taxing, like, you know, takes all your energy and cognitive function and, um, power. So, uh, the tricky thing is how you could accommodate without singling out and not being tokenistic. Like, you know, do not have like checkbook. Oh, I have, uh, this many women. I have this many, uh, you know, wheelchair users and stuff like that.
Shelley DenisonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo when I was talking to planners, uh, we were like brainstorming ideas. One way could be is like, uh, when you organize in the meeting ahead of time, you disclose what kind of accommodation you provide, right? So it's kind of like you are, um, signaling ahead of time that you are aware of those needs. For example, you could say that, uh, uh, and it's not only autism, other accommodations, like you could say, and this is what in Arizona they say, they have. Oh, hearing loop, you know, people who have hearing aids, the meetings they provide, uh, in Arizona, Phoenix, they have hearing loop in the room where they have public meetings, right? So when you put it somewhere on advertisement, on when you invite people, the person who has those, have those needs, they don't need to call you and ask for particular accommodation. They already see that you include them in the process. Similarly, when we did our focus group and our charrette at Knowlton School, we highlighted that we have quiet room, you know, where you can go and unwind. Some offices now provide that. You know, they call it, in Knowlton, we have like quiet prayer room. You can do yoga there, or some people need to pray, so they go there. So that's kind of part of accommodation and it's recent, uh, it's relatively new.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYes.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYou know, like for mothers we have lactation rooms. This is also relatively new. Not all offices and buildings have it. So, this is part of accommodation as well. So, I think, like, when you are thinking about, uh, um, conducting public participation meeting, being intentional and also put it somewhere that People will know that you recognize and you see them and they would feel that they belong.
Shelley DenisonYeah, yeah, that's really good. That's really good advice, being proactive in informing people of the accommodations that are going to be available, as opposed to just waiting for people to ask. What, what advice would you give to planners who maybe don't even know what kinds of accommodations to provide?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYes.
Shelley DenisonRight, it's. It's kind of the issue of unknown unknowns. Um, how, how would a planner go about, you know, a planner putting together a public meeting? How would they determine what kinds of accommodations to provide?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo, there are several publications on planning, um, uh, website, right? We, uh, did our past memo. It has, like, very short, I think, eight pages, um, description what we did and certain recommendations how you can approach it. There is article, uh, "When every day is sensory overload" in planning, uh, magazine. You can also read. It's like starting point. It's just like starting point and it's short, uh, it's nuts and bolts, uh, bolts. Um, and another thing that this is how we approach and how we did it and it's like shortcut. It's to get, it's to get to know the community, right? You are working in a neighborhood, you are working in the city. And we already as planners already know that because we do so much of engagement, we engage in different organizations, right? We engage with universities, uh, we engage with neighborhood communities. We engage with churches because this is where reach, you know, we can reach the population in the area, right, geographical. We can, uh, similarly engage with disability activist groups. Right? So this is that gatekeeper or this is connecting point. And I would say that not be afraid of Looking stupid or not knowing, like your desire of learning. It kind of helps. Like similarly, when we started in Knowlton, uh, with Kyle Ezell, my colleague, this research, we didn't know much. Like my, my focus was on, on disability and planning in general, but I didn't know much about autism. I didn't know a lot of specifics. And we were collaborating with autism living organization and they are familiar and they were connecting us with community. So you can have that point of connection and working through any kind of disability organization. Like find out about them, who they are. It's similarly how we work with other organization. Cultural, like immigrant communities. So this is another. you know, point of connection.
Shelley DenisonAnd I think that illustrates the importance of ongoing learning as planners, you know, that, um, especially when it comes to disability accommodations of seeking out information periodically and keeping up to date on best practices and what, what kinds of accommodation needs, uh, are, are available for planners to implement. Um in public meetings.
Mary Heberling-CreightonI just keep thinking about all of the public meetings that we've done and how unfriendly it would probably be to a neurodivergent person. Gymnasiums that are incredibly loud, there's just a lot of echo going on, um, you know, a lot of people in a small space, small group, kind of hard to hear everyone.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnd also, you know, like how, how we are limited in certain things, like, you know, when we have to have public meetings. We cannot, like, downsize it. It's supposed to be open for everyone. So we should reconsider, okay, um, these meetings that we have, do we have, like, quiet room? Do we have breaks? Uh, what kind of, um, accommodation would, uh, we do in terms of getting feedback from people? Some people are not verbal. Do you have ways they can express themselves? Other than talking, like writing, drawing, stuff like that.
Shelley DenisonYeah, yeah, yeah. That's such an important point. And I also think Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about a public engagement event that we did at a city that I worked for previously, where we wanted to make sure that we could engage, um, young families. Because one of the big pitfalls of a lot of public meetings is that there's no childcare and there's no food. Um, and so that kind of, uh, eliminates the possibility of bringing in young parents. Because what are they going to do with their kids? And so we had a, a, a public engagement event, kind of an open house, at this indoor, like this big indoor playground, right? So parents could come, their kids could play, the parents could engage with, The different, um, you know, the different activities that were there. It was for a comprehensive plan. But even though that was, you know, really accommodating for young parents, right, families who otherwise maybe wouldn't have been able to come to an event like that, it was really loud, right? It was really loud. It was really chaotic. There were kids running all over the place. And so I think, I think that illustrates, you know, sometimes you probably need more than just one event, right? To accommodate for different kinds of needs.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnd it's also talking about what participation is, like how we define it. Is participation only big meetings or it can be survey participation? That with some people who are shy, don't want, you know, like speak to big audiences, who are more likely to participate. And planners already using those, you know, like voting kind of things. Uh, with COVID, like COVID magnified, right, how we interact. And some people hated, uh, Zoom communication because they wanted, like, you know, human interaction. Some people liked it and they could, like, you know, do other things they are doing, just like, put, remove the video, right? And they are still participating passively.
Shelley DenisonRight, yeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo, I think, during COVID, we kind of learned how to be flexible. And how have, to have all different ways we can participate.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Shelley DenisonYeah. And so having a diversity of tools, of opportunities to, to engage with the planning process is really important when it comes to accommodating for disabilities.
Mary Heberling-CreightonRight. And it's also not I mean, to me, it doesn't sound complicated. It's not something that I think would be, you know, extremely expensive to have to accommodate. It's, you know, providing maybe more options and providing, um, more opportunities than maybe before, but I don't think that's going to be a bad thing. I think it gives us better planning and better visions and everything because we're accommodating more people.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYeah. And also asking the community, right? If you're working through those organizations or you want to invite diverse group of people, ask them what kind of accommodations they want to be transparent and open about it, what you can do. Or like you say, I don't know now I will go, I will get back to you. I will learn about it and I get back to you. You know, it means that person matters.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Shelley DenisonYeah. That's so important. That's so important. I think that, um, definitely in my experience as a practicing planner, a lot of times disability accommodations are just, as you mentioned, Gala thought of as, you know, what does ADA require?
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Shelley DenisonYou know, We don't, we don't often do the work of thinking much broader than that. But by not thinking bigger, by not learning more, by not expanding our understanding of what kinds of disabilities need accommodations, we're leaving out entire chunks of our communities from planning processes.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAn example could be about ADA churches, right? If you know about ADA, the church is exempt from ADA. Like when they were drafting the law, churches are exempt. And sometimes planners, uh, go to churches because you can have the meeting of that community that's already there, coming to them. So, some churches, for example, that's old building, they're not retrofitting, I'm not saying all of them, but some might, and they're exempt from ADA accommodation. So, without knowing that, or not connecting with disability community, how would you know if you are not disabled, or you don't know what the needs are? You, you, you, and also the laws and regulations are so complex and so specific. You might, you know, miss something out. That's why I'm talking about collaborating and working directly with disability communities.
Shelley DenisonYeah. We're also really interested in talking to you about your work with APA on the Autism Planning and Design Guidelines. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYes, so, this work was initiated, uh, by organization in Columbus, uh, Autism Living, uh, uh, previous name All In Now, this is the name of organization. We had our, um, uh, alum, um, Knowlton School alum, planner, Rick Stein, and he came to us. To conduct the studio work, with particularly focusing on autism planning. So this is the connection that I'm talking about, connecting with communities. So here was the point of connection, and we were engaged with work for a year and a half with autistic adults. And we were focusing particularly on adults, not kids. Because this is that term that it's called cliff, when, you know, when your child is in the school, provides through, um, idea or other accommodations related to education. And when it ends, you know, like, you're on your own. When you are 18, you're supposed to be an adult. But we're all different and, uh, differently come to the adulthood. And we were doing research with our undergraduate and graduate students, working directly with this autistic organization. And then we applied for APA awards, uh, nomination. And this was first year that, uh, American Planning Association was, um, connecting practice and research. And our project kind of fit both of those things in advance. Because we were doing extensive research of, um, Literature review, we did focus groups, we did charrettes, and this is how we came about our feelings framework. And some people already heard about that. Um, we summarize all this research, uh, and, um, synthesize it to six, uh, points. And this is why we call it six feeling frameworks that focus on feeling connected, feeling free, feeling clear, feeling private, and feeling safe and feeling calm. And when we discuss some of the accommodations, it kind of covers those elements and we describe what it means. So we got that feeling framework based on all of the feedback we get from autistic adults. And Charrette and focus group research. We also had focus group with, um, parents of autistic adults. So it's separate caregivers, so we get like different perspective on that. And, uh, collaborated with planners, architects, urban designers. social workers, public administrators. It was a very, uh, diverse group of, uh, people. And, um, the, this article is free of charge, available through planning, um, website. Any member of APA can, can search it. Uh, and more detail how we described it is available also on websites, free of charge. Um, it has copyright of Ohio State. Anyone can use it, take out and, Move on, because we call it Autism Guidelines 1. 0, so it's just a beginning, and we hope others will take it as a beginning and move this research further. So build on it.
Shelley DenisonYeah. In that document, it's a planning advisory service memo. It has a section on applying the guidelines to planning practice, and it gives some, um, practical examples. For example, it talks about, uh, parking lots, right? So, I'm just going to read a little bit of this. Uh, "an interpretation of a retail parking lot that attempts to integrate The Six Feelings better connects the rows of parking spots to a destination, in this case a retail store. The Series of Sidewalks prevents pedestrians from having to navigate around cars that are moving past and entering or backing from parking spaces, evoking feelings of safety from dangerous cars and feelings of being connected from the parking space to the retail store. Speed bumps force car traffic to slow, further supporting feelings of safety." I really love this. I love that it is a framework that focuses on the emotional experience of the person using the place, using the city. I feel like that is such a unique approach to take. Um, because in planning, we talk a lot about behavior. We talk a lot about, we use a lot of language of economics. We talk about people being rational and making rational decisions. But what I love about this six feelings framework is how it emphasizes that we're also very emotional, that, that our, our emotions, our feelings can really affect our experience in, in the built environment. I also love the, the example in, in the memo, the past memo on, uh, don't bother me zones, um, soothing spaces that allow an escape from chaos, similar to meditation rooms in buildings, what you were describing, Gala. Um, they're outdoor spaces for users to experience feelings of calm, privacy, safety, and clarity.
Mary Heberling-CreightonHmm.
Shelley DenisonUm, and then when they're ready, they can return to the public recharged. This is a really fantastic, really fantastic resource, and I, I, again, we'll, we'll link it in the show notes. I really encourage folks to go, to go take a look at it.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah. That sounds amazing. And it's, it's something that, um, I was never taught in school. So this is. It's great that we have this free resource, and I would encourage, you know, if anyone's in planning school right now, you should really look at this, let your professors know, um, this definitely, I think, personally needs to be taught better in, in schooling for planning.
Shelley DenisonYeah, definitely, I, I graduated in 2017, so, I mean, relatively recently, right within the last decade. I don't think I don't remember talking about or learning about the importance of accommodations beyond you need a ramp so people who use wheelchairs can get into the building. You need to use a microphone so people with hearing disabilities can hear, right? I, I Don't remember getting into some of the more nuanced or some of the more, some of the other kinds of accommodations that planners could be providing. One of the links that Gala sent over for our research was the 2020 student awards from the American society of landscape architects. The winning project of that award was called Learn, Play, Thrive, Design Guidelines and Toolkits of Therapeutic Gardens for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder. So this is an example of a lot of things that we have found that connects the importance of green space with, um, ways that we can design the built environment to accommodate neurodiversity better. Gala, what, do we know why green space is so beneficial for neurodiverse people?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoI think that particular research that you're referencing, uh, in, um, mentions, uh, biophilia, and there's like, uh, a lot of research done in that area, uh, talking how, um, the environments, it was introduced and popularized by Edward Wilson. Suggests that human have this innate tendency to seek connection with nature and other forms of life. Uh, probably anecdotally some people so aware of how autistic kids and adults are connected with animals, right? And we have those pet areas in the zoo, right? When kids like to, to, to pet domestic animals. Sometimes we use, like, horses, right, to help kids to rehabilitate. So these are the things that, you know, keeps us grounded, I think. And this is where the ideas come from. And, um, in our busy environments, in the big cities, you know, we are, like, sitting in the concrete boxes, staring at the screens, and then, like, outside it's all asphalt. It, uh, I think makes, can make us stress, stress and agitated.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo those areas, uh, and we, uh, actually took our feeling frameworks. This is the publication we did with Berkeley, um, School of, Berkeley School and, uh, Landscape Students. We talk about how you can use our feeling frameworks in landscaping and we took some examples, uh, I was writing it with Alex Pisha, also our, um, Knowlton alum. Uh, we took his experience of working with different landscapes and seeing where all of those feeling frameworks touch, uh, this connection with the environment, parks. Uh, and given the, uh, specific examples, this is how this park is designed, and it can cover this feeling connected or feeling clear.
Shelley DenisonI think that this, this approach, this, you know, the, the biophilic approach to urban design, really prioritizing green space, is an example of Why universal design works so well. So universal design refers to, um, an approach, a framework to urban design that takes into account all of the accommodations that people might need in order to use a built environment the way that they need to. And one of the sort of principles of urban design is that when we accommodate for one group of people, it actually improves things for more than just them. It improves things for a lot of other people. And I think biophilic design is a really good example of that, that This idea of, you know, green spaces where, uh, neurodiverse people can go and recharge, um, and have those feelings of safety and privacy and clarity. It turns out that that's actually good for everybody, too, you know? Uh, I feel like that's, that's a really good example of of why universal design is such a good framework to use when, when we're doing urban design projects.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoThis is what we were talking about, spectrum, right? Like how it's spectrum. Like there's not like one solution fitting all.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnother critique of universal net, universality and universal principle from disability community that I, I heard was like, Um, you know, like what you just said, Shelly, about, but it's beneficial for all. We do this and it's beneficial for all. And with disability community, I hear saying, we don't have to find something that benefits for all to make it universal in order for you to pay attention to our needs.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYou see what I mean?
Shelley DenisonYeah. Yeah. That is such a good point. That is a really good point.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoIt's not, it's like, if you look at this. Um, from civil rights perspective, you don't have to accommodate all in that regard. Just people to start paying attention. You have to do it because of it's, it's right to do and it's from civil rights perspective. When we talk about civil rights, we don't talk about price and cost because it's a different level of conversation.
Shelley DenisonYeah. Yeah.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Shelley DenisonYeah. That, that is, that is a really good point. That is a really good point. That, um, We shouldn't implement accommodations only if they're good for everybody, right? They are worth implementing, even if they are only needed or useful to a, you know, a specific, you know, part of our community.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoThis is how you, this is what your podcast is, better planning, right? We already did this. Let's do and try and innovate and do new, because we have more knowledge about this. Like, with neuroscience, we learn more and more about differences, what kind of environments, uh, make us stressful. And, um, this is what I hear from, uh, some of my autistic friends, for example, who were diagnosed later in life. And ADHD as well. They might not even be aware of what kind of accommodation they need. Like, like, they're used to such stress. and masking, that sometimes they, they also need to discover it, what, what kind of environments are, uh, accommodating them and whatnot. So it's like learning, uh, themself.
Shelley DenisonYeah, that, it is so interesting that you bring that up, uh, because, um, a couple of months ago, I, uh, Um, I was diagnosed with autism and it was one of those things where, like, I just kind of started reading about the experiences of women and girls and particularly women who are diagnosed with autism later in life and how a lot of the research that we have on autism is about boys, right? It's about young boys and how, you know, they, they tend to exhibit being autistic. What we have missed, right, is that because we socially condition girls to take into account the comfort, the convenience, the perceptions of the people around them, girls with autism get very, very good at masking. Their autism. And it, it also often shows up as being like pretty academically gifted. Right? So what happens, and this is sort of what tipped it off for me of like, Oh, hmm, this might not just be something I'm interested in, like about other people, but this might be something about me, was this repeated experience that, that women and girls have of, you know, You know, their whole lives of other people, right? Adults, saying you're so smart, you're a hard worker, you're so self sufficient, you don't need anything. You don't need any resources. Like, you've got this figured out. And then becoming an adult, and like, Continuing to struggle, sort of invisibly. And then it turns out, like, wait, no, actually, I do need resources, and I have absolutely no idea what those might be. I have no idea what, like, what kinds of accommodations I might need. And, yeah, it is so interesting you bring that up, because I feel like that's something that I'm working on right now, is figuring out, like, What, what kinds of stuff, like, what kinds of structures, what kinds of systems would, like, help me work with the brain that I have?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnd this is why it's help, this is why it's helpful to have diverse planning teams. And this is an article we, uh, wrote with Bobby, and I also provided the link, talking about, uh, planners that we might have who have autism, ADHD, or PTSD. And what kind of accommodations we as planners provide for planners.
Shelley DenisonYeah.
Mary Heberling-CreightonYeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoWithin our planning profession.
Shelley DenisonYeah, so you're talking about the APA article, which we'll link in the show notes, um, Hiring Neurodiverse People to Enhance Planning Teams. Yeah, could you, could you talk a little bit about that article and kind of what you, uh, what you and the other authors found while writing it?
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoSo I could, um, people can read that article because it's short. But I would tell that, uh, last September I attended a California American Planner Association chapter conference, and we had a session well attended in California with two planners who just graduated and who are autistic, and they used our feeling frameworks for two of their master's students, uh, master's thesises. One thesis was on transportation and another one was on master plans, how master plans include disability, in particular autism, how they talk about it. So it was so helpful to have on this panel presentation autistic planners because they have their lived experiences that they can share with. When we did our presentation in San Francisco, Several planners would come to us after the presentation and tell us that they're autistic, they just graduated, and how it's hard to get hired because of the social aspect and how we do interviews, right? Some people have anxiety in social communication, but they are good in something else. Like, um, I had, um, some planners telling me that they applied for 80 jobs and didn't get any like feedback. So this is in terms of like you don't disclose your disability and you don't have to but then you might be You know not included because you are not ticking all the boxes. And it's also talking about how our interviews Traditionally designed for neurotypical people probably not considering neurodiverse population I remember when I was a master's student at the University of Kansas. We had You know, like mock interviews. It's very intense. It's like, you know, you are talking with experienced planners and you have like five minutes and sometimes you can just, you know, like shut down. You don't know what to reply. You get anxious. And this is the, you know, like the tempo. And this is how the traditional interviews are conducted and what we put emphasis on. Right? But our teams are diverse, not Like in any planning organization, not everybody on the planning team are going to do engagement or public participation meetings. There might be planners who are more comfortable working with GIS because they have social anxiety talking to other people. So we already kind of have diverse people with diverse skills. Why we are not going beyond that and consider how we actually hire planners. And if you look at the CDC statistics, we will have more and more people who are autistic. Currently, because of the COVID, long COVID, how it affect cognitive functioning, we already have to consider in the future how we accommodate people and communities who are, who are neurodiverse. So even like hiring practices as planners, what we value, how we design the hiring practices. Interviews. Are we including people who, uh, perceive, think, learn, and communicate differently?
Shelley DenisonYeah. Yeah, that's so important. That is such an important thing to take into account, um, with hiring practices as well as workplace accommodations. My, I was, I was laid off from my last job because of some budget issues, uh, about a year ago. And I sort of made the decision to do independent, you know, uh, independent contractor consulting, right, to work for myself. In part because Well, not in part, but almost entirely because I find the traditional work environment like so intolerable. It's awful. My, my, my last job we had, what was essentially an open office, an open concept office, right? Where we had, we had walls, but they didn't go up to the ceiling. So it was constantly distracting. Constantly distracting. My job that I had before that, before I really kind of knew how to advocate for myself, um, there was a rule that we weren't allowed to have, like, headphones, right, or earbuds to listen to music. Um, and so it's like you're just constantly being distracted by all of the noise that's going on outside. So I think, I think it's, I think it's really important for, Uh, planners who are neurodiverse, or potential planners who are neurodiverse, to look into what resources are available to them, what laws are on their side, to ask for reasonable workplace accommodations. And, It shouldn't only be their responsibility, it should be also the responsibility of managers, of directors, of people in HR to, uh, to arm themselves with that kind of knowledge as well, right? To, to understand what kinds of things they need to look out for when it comes to hiring processes. What kinds of things they should, uh, figure out accommodations for when it comes to, you know, the workplace.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnd, uh, also this knowledge came, uh, to me from collaborating with Royal Town Planning Institute in United Kingdom. Uh, I had a friend, still have a friend, who is, uh, working in United Kingdom as a planner. And she was diagnosed later. And, um, she was sharing with me her, uh, dealing with accommodating, like, United Kingdom, you don't have to have diagnosis, official diagnosis to require that. So she would negotiate with her manager what you are saying about air phones, because she got distracted and there is like particular air phones that she had to have. And uh, working hours and meetings, accommodations during meetings, what kind of accommodations, you know, like. Written script or something that because she get distracted. Um, so, that took us like a year, maybe more, like what you said. Figuring out that she is autistic later in life. Um, she was not diagnosed as a child. Uh, learning what kind of accommodation she needs and then negotiated it. Uh, with your employer.
Shelley DenisonRight. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a, it's a process, right? And even though disability law is on the side of the employee, right, the person looking for accommodations, it doesn't always work out that bosses or employers really understand what their legal obligations are. And, yeah, so I think it's really important that, um, people who are in any kind of supervisory position understand what The importance of providing reasonable accommodations for their employees, for any kind of disability. So Gala, one of the other resources you sent over was a, a project done by a professor, uh, and design consultant at the American University in Cairo. Uh, her name's Magda Mostafa. She has a project called the Aspects Design Index. Um, I'm just reading this from the website. It's a. It was a design index published in 2013. It's a research based framework of seven design concepts, facilitative of architecture for autism. The seven concepts are acoustics, spatial sequencing, escape, compartmentalization, transition, sensory zoning, and safety. I think this is a really good companion to, uh, the, um, autism design guidelines that Gala helped author for APA. This is a really good companion because it talks specifically about actually operationalizing, actualizing what kinds of design elements can be put into buildings, into, into built environments. It's to better support the needs of people with autism. We're also going to link this in the show notes. There's a list of a bunch of really interesting projects that have been done. And Gala, I was just interested if there were any, any other projects around the United States or around the world of planners or architects or landscape architects really meaningfully designing their built environment with the needs of neurodiverse people in mind.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYes. So I was mentioning to you before about, um, The ARC Wings for Autism project, and we also provide the website. It's thearc.Org. Uh, this is a group of people focusing on air travel and a special, uh, preparation. Uh for, parents with kids who have autism, you know, rehearsing before the actual travel. So, to reduce the stress level. So, transportation, uh, one example could be in Columbus, uh, COTA, our public transportation company. Has, like, training, bus training. So, some people, not, not only who are having disabilities, those who never used bus, I don't know how to use it. There are special, like, training that you can go and learn how to pay, how you, you know, behave on the bus and stuff like that. So, these are, like, training, uh, examples that incorporate needs of autistic people. Um, another example, and you mentioned, uh, helping adults with autism perform and excel, HAAPE. This is organization based, um, in Florida and, uh, uh, we collaborate with them, I collaborate with them as well. And in two, uh, 2022, uh, they work with, uh, Western. Um, it's in Florida, uh, and helping them to be recognized as autism friendly community. So they were collaborating with, uh, University of Miami Center for Autism and Related Disability and working with manager, city manager, uh, mayor, uh, to train city staff how to be autism aware, autism friendly. So it's ongoing effort in the community. Doesn't stop. So this is like communities like cities see the value of that kind of, um, training and research and practice.
Shelley DenisonYeah, that's awesome. That's really cool. Yeah, I invite our listeners if, if anybody's familiar with any other projects, uh, whether it's an urban design project or, or an inclusive public participation project that has taken into account the needs of, uh, Neurodiverse communities, we would love to hear about them. Send us an email and tell us about them.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoYes, and, and those who will come in Minneapolis at our session on, um, April 13th, we will have, uh, speakers there, um, my colleagues, and they will actually talk about practical, uh, examples they were working on.
Shelley DenisonYeah, perfect. I love it.
Mary Heberling-CreightonWe love real world examples.
Shelley DenisonYeah. That's so cool. Uh, Gala. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to us. This is such a fascinating topic. It's so important.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoThank you for inviting me.
Shelley DenisonYeah. Yeah.
Dr. Gala KorniyenkoAnd I'm glad to collaborate with, with, uh, I'm glad to collaborate with Oregon planners. I collaborated with California. It looks like we are starting to cover West Coast now.
Shelley DenisonRight. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're interested in some of the resources that we've talked about, again, go take a look at the show notes. There's going to be lots of links there, uh, lots of resources you can learn from, things that are a little more academic or abstract, things that are super concrete, you know, real life examples of things that you can implement in your own communities. And Gala, again, thank you so much.