Planning Workplace Dynamics

Shelley, Mary, and special guest Kristy Kilbourne, are back with a great episode discussing various issues that come up in the Planning Department or Planning Office and those workplace dynamics at play. 

This episode actually came from a listener's voicemail who was seeking advice on issues in their own workplace. We discuss topics around poor leadership, the slow movement of government or bureaucracy, finding resources, and burnout. 

To learn more about Kristy and her work, go to yourplanningcareer.com or her instagram at @passionateplanning. 

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The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?

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Transcript

Shelley Denison: 0:00

Mary, what is one thing that you think is unique to workplaces for planners, as opposed to other professions?

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 0:08

You know, I would say there's gonna be this hole somewhere. There's gonna be like, it's either in a cupboard, maybe in the like, office area where there's just random pieces of paper, and then you'll find. Foam boards filled with, you know, random maps and things that were from their comprehensive planning process 1984 and then you will also find Four easels, but you always need five and so you have to make do Somehow someway you got to figure out how to get the fifth foam board up for your public engagement event.

Shelley Denison: 0:47

And then you do buy the fifth easel, but then the next time around you need six easels. It's an infinite loop of easels.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 0:56

Exactly. Exactly. There's never enough. What about you? What is one thing that you think is unique to workplaces for planners?

Shelley Denison: 1:08

The fact that You regularly go into work, go into the office, with two pairs of shoes.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 1:16

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 1:17

You've got your, your nice, you know, your, your office shoes, right? Your, your cute little Rothys. Yeah. And your dirty, muddy, dirty shoes. pair of boots that you wear when you go out to a site visit. You're listening to the Better Planners podcast, brought to you by the Oregon chapter of the American Planning Association. My name is Shelley Denison,

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 1:53

and my name is Mary Heberling Creighton,

Shelley Denison: 1:55

and we are your hosts. You can find us on the website for the Oregon Chapter of APA, and we're also on Instagram at Better Planners. Planners is plural. If you want to get in contact with us, you can call and leave a voicemail. That number is 503 433 7545. We love hearing your questions. We love hearing about your experiences as a planner. The weirder, the more complicated, the better. Or you can send us an email at betterplannerspodcast at gmail. com. So Mary, what are we talking about today?

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 2:33

Speaking of voicemails, we happened to receive a voicemail a little while ago that brought to our attention Some ideas that we would talk about today. They asked us for advice because they were feeling frustrated about their own workplace and the dynamics that were going into it. Feeling that it could be unorganized. Feeling like they wanted to avoid burnout and, and we felt that this would be a perfect episode to talk about that. It's gonna be really great.

Shelley Denison: 3:03

So today we have a guest on the podcast. We're interviewing Kristy Kilbourne. Kristy is an urban planning consultant, a planning practice researcher, and planning career coach. She helps new and established planners break into the profession or pivot into new roles. And she is also currently working on a PhD in city, community, and regional planning. You can find her online at yourplanningcareer. com and on Instagram at passionateplanning. Kristy, welcome.

Kristy Kilbourne: 3:36

Thanks so much, Shelley. Yeah, I am a former public sector planner turned planning consultant and career coach to many urban planners, as well as a planning practice researcher. Um, In my coaching work, I do work with planners at all stages of their careers across all different niches and sectors in both Canada and the U. S. I also work with many planning schools to prepare their graduates for transition to professional practice environments and also work with professional associations as well. And I'm really excited to be invited into this space. and for this conversation. I do a lot of coaching work with planners in the Pacific Northwest, and I think we really are seeing a lot of planners progressing quite quickly now in their careers. We're working in very different times since March of 2020 and planning education and professional practice environments in many ways haven't caught up to how to best support the needs of today's planners. And so I really love the mission, the whole mission of better planners and, um, the podcast.

Shelley Denison: 4:51

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that, that recognition that the work of planning isn't just planning itself, but it's the, the logistics. It's the workplace. It's the, the career behind it too. That's really important to, to understand and to have more information on, have a better understanding of.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 5:11

So yeah, today we have brought Kristy on to help us talk through a voicemail that we received."Hi there, you can call me Cassandra, and I wanted to call in and share some of my experiences and ask for a little advice. So I was hired straight out of my undergrad to manage the planning program for a smaller city on the Oregon coast, and to be honest, everything here has been a mess for years and years. Not just for the planning department, but there's been a complete lack of competent leadership or organization in every way. So new leadership stepped in and hired me, but I've been here for almost two years and it feels like we've barely made any progress. So I guess my question is, do you have any advice for someone trying to build, or more importantly rebuild, a planning program practically from scratch? And do you have any suggestions on how to work through the frustration and the incremental changes and the very, very slow progress without just burning out and feeling like you're not getting anywhere? Thanks so much." Love, love this question, and I think a lot of people can relate to it.

Shelley Denison: 6:19

So there are four parts of that question that we're really interested in getting Kristy's take on. The first one, you know, if you're newer to the profession, And find yourself in a leadership role, but you don't have adequate support or mentorship or preparation. What do you do about that? The second one, what do you do in the face of poor leadership or senior management that isn't providing you the support that you need? Number three, frustration about the bureaucracy and the slow pace of trying to make the planning department work. And the number four, how to avoid burnout. Yeah, I feel like every planner asks themselves that question. How do I avoid getting burnt out in this job? Yeah, so let's start with that first one. So, Kristy, for somebody like Cassandra who is new in the profession and still getting their feet wet and kind of finds themself in that higher up leadership role, but they're not really sure where to go for support or, or to go for resources, what would you recommend that they do?

Kristy Kilbourne: 7:27

Yeah, um, and I think many planners are finding themselves in these types of circumstances, um, particularly recently. And there are a lot of planners that work at smaller municipalities or smaller, um, consulting firms or other, um, institutions as well, where they might even find themselves as the only planner within that organization. And that can be extremely tough just coming out of school and not having mentors, but being in a position where you are the professional planner, where you are expected to have a lot of You know autonomy and decision making as well. And so in those cases there can also be Quite a bit of imposter syndrome from the person as well And what i've observed is that There are a lot more difficult scenarios when You may get frazzled and, and, um, be trying to hide any insecurities that you might have rather than acknowledging where maybe you don't quite yet have the experience. Um, but the important thing there is is how are you going to get the information that you need to make the right kinds of decisions. And so that's where I like to emphasize the importance of really having a professional support network. And that may not be within your organization, particularly if you're seeing things like poor leadership, mismanagement, that sort of thing. It can be really tough to be in those situations, especially as a first role. Um, but also what a great learning opportunity to learn about complex challenges and navigating senior, difficult, um, issues with senior management, difficult political situations as well, provided you have support and so in those cases, I would say to lean on external networks, Are there other people in similar roles at similar municipalities or other organizations, whatever that might be, that you can lean on that you can commiserate with that may be able to provide you with advice and mentorship around what to do in those scenarios. So even as we're doing discussing on the podcast. What this individual might do, it's so important that we create the spaces for ourselves, if they aren't there already, to have these discussions around challenges so that we can navigate a path forward as well. Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 10:20

Uh, I, I know just speaking as, you know, someone involved with the Oregon chapter of APA, um, I know that if, Somebody reached out, if a planner in Oregon reached out to OAPA leadership and said, uh, I'm in this position and I'm lost and I don't know what to do. Um, I am confident that the leadership of OAPA would move heaven and earth to help that person with the support and the resources and the mentorship they needed to succeed. Uh, yeah, so I think that professional network, um, You know, reach out to your, your state's, uh, APA chapter, and I think that that would be a great, a great resource to find that kind of support that you need.

Kristy Kilbourne: 11:03

Yeah, 100%. And also another resource, like APA is such a great resource in and of itself. And then, of course, the chapters, there are also divisions. So, uh, there's a private practice division that a lot of private practice, um, and independent planning consultants have leaned on to learn the ropes as well. So, um, finding those professional communities is just so key.

Shelley Denison: 11:30

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And especially a place like, um, like Oregon. Um, you know, a lot of our listeners are in Oregon. I, you know, we, we, we look at our metrics. We know y'all are all over the country, but we get a lot from Oregon. Um, it can be hard if you are not in one of the cities on the I 5 corridor, all right? If you're in Portland, if you're in Salem, and if you're, if you're in Eugene, you know, you're, you're going to know a lot of planners in your city. Um, but out on the coast, out in Central Oregon, Eastern Oregon, Southern Oregon, it can be a little isolating. It can feel a little isolating, um, for sure. And so, yeah, reaching out to, to the state's chapter, reaching out to different APA divisions, um, Yeah, and trying to, to build that, that support online from those, those kinds of organizations, I think is really, really, would be incredibly helpful.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 12:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I would also say sometimes your first job out of grad school or undergrad or any sort of planning education that you have, um, can be a little bit of a shock to the system sometimes because it is quite a different environment once you're there in the real world. And, you know, especially if you start working in the public sector and you're in bureaucracy, it can, it can feel, um, like things take a really, really long time in comparison to what you may have expected. Um, and that can be really hard, I think, for some people.

Shelley Denison: 12:58

Yeah, for sure. Especially given how broad, uh, the curriculum in, uh, planning school is compared to how specific and technical individual planning roles can be.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 13:13

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 13:13

That was definitely a shock to me. Yeah. Yeah, I also think, um, so in my experience, I started out my planning career in Ohio and then moved to Oregon, started a planning job in Oregon for a city, and, um, realized very quickly. Oh, Oregon's land use system is a lot more complicated than I realized it was going to be. And I realized, okay, there's all of this technical knowledge, all of this procedural knowledge that I need to get pretty quick. Um, and so, something that was really helpful for me was, Getting good at being able to confidently say to members of the public or to planning commission or to city council, um, being able to say, That's a really good question, and I don't know the answer off the top of my head, but if you'll give me a couple of days, um, I'll be happy to get back to you with an answer. Right? So that, that, that realization of, like, uh, Yeah, that, that realization of nobody's gonna be mad at me if I don't know the answer right away off the top of my head, that doesn't mean I'm a bad planner. Uh, and in fact, it makes for a better planner to recognize, oh, this is something that I don't know, but I know how to find the answer. And I can get back to this person in a few days.

Kristy Kilbourne: 14:35

Yeah, and also, I don't want to give you the wrong information or the wrong advice. It also shows that you hold yourself to a high standard, uh, as well of wanting to get it right or not provide a sort of half informed answer or response on the spot.

Shelley Denison: 14:54

Yeah, I would say that all the time. Um, when I would get a call about, you know, uh, I have a property in this zone. Like, how high can I build my, build a building or whatever? And it's like, I don't know. Uh, but yeah, I would say like, oh, I don't want to give you the wrong answer, so let me just double check and get back to you.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 15:10

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 15:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 15:12

I would say it took me like a good couple of years to feel confident enough to be able to answer questions quickly if I needed to. Um, and I also got really good at saying like, I don't know, that's a great question. I'll look into that. And people would, they were always very happy to be like, yes, double check, make sure you have the right information, because a lot of times it's situations where people are wanting to develop something on their property, um, and they want to make sure that they are given the right information, because if not, it could cause a lot of problems.

Shelley Denison: 15:44

Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, you know, I feel like that's a good situation where you can either, like, build a lot of trust or destroy all of the trust, right? Being able to say, um, you know, it is important to me that I give you the right answer to this question, uh, as opposed to, um, I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm just going to tell you what I think is true.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 16:08

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 16:09

Yeah.

Kristy Kilbourne: 16:09

I think to that end, always, always get the person's contact information.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 16:15

Yeah.

Kristy Kilbourne: 16:15

Um, if they're, you know, if you're in a counter situation and they've come in person and you've given them some information, Um, it can help to definitely always get their information in case a situation comes up where down the line you realize Oh shoot, I might have given this person the wrong information, or I didn't give them this critical, uh, piece of policy, or, you know, something that applied to the property, um, you might have missed, which, which this happens, we're, we're human, we do make mistakes sometimes, but if you have the contact information, then you can always follow back up, and, um, provide that additional information and context as well if needed.

Shelley Denison: 16:59

Yeah. Yeah. Something else, something else I would do in those situations, um, would, uh, you know, if I, if I had a couple of days to find an answer to a question, I would kind of go just like a little bit above and beyond and find something else that would be beneficial to the person to help their understanding of what it is, you know, what it is their question was about. And so being able to give them an answer and also, oh, here's this other resource, this other thing that helps give context to what your question was about. People love that. That is such a good trust building exercise. That is such a, such a great way to help people, whether they're members of the public, whether they are your, um, uh, elected or appointed leadership, or, you know, fellow staff members, or your boss. That is a fantastic way to show, um, like, I really, really care about you and making sure that you have the understanding that you need, um, the answers that you need to make a good decision about whatever it is you're trying to make a good decision about. And then everybody feels good.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 18:10

I think I also want to touch on a little bit about, and we This is sort of related, I think, to the four points we were going to bring up, but it kind of just triggered in me that like, oh, we can talk about this too, of like, working in a smaller community, the resources are much less than in a larger city, and especially when it's like your first job out of school. Sometimes you don't know what you need. And I remember like one of, I've consistently worked in smaller communities, um, but not like too small, probably not as small as the, the voicemail caller, but you know, I w I worked from one city and then I worked in another city and I took. templates, reports, even just like meeting transcript like formats. I took them from my old job and brought them to the new job because I knew that it would be really helpful and I could see as working in this new job, I was like, Oh, I think, I think we need this, this form. Or something just to make it easier for us to explain to the community about something or, you know, being able to kind of share with other co workers easily about something. And it's really hard when you don't know what you. Need to be able to kind of prepare for that.

Kristy Kilbourne: 19:26

I think you touch on an important point, which is a really beautiful thing about public sector work is that there isn't the same environment of competition. There's a lot more collaboration where. The neighboring, you know, town may be perfectly willing, if their information may be available on their website for you to be able to look at and take a template from there, but staff are often available to say, Oh, let me send you our template or how we approached this similar issue. So there is a lot of sharing that happens too.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 20:03

Yeah, absolutely. Like I would reach out to old coworkers and I was like, can you send me that template on, on how we chose to describe this thing? And they're like, Oh yeah, here you go. I mean, it's all public record. So, um, it's very easy to be able to get things.

Kristy Kilbourne: 20:17

Yeah, and I think, um, to your point too, a small town isn't going to have the same resources as larger cities like Portland, but are also can be great learning grounds to get those solid foundations in planning to work at a manageable pace where there aren't a million development applications coming in, which sometimes happens in the higher growth locations too. And sometimes in these places, although maybe not in the case of the caller, you can receive some good mentorship opportunity because the planning staff have the time and the ability to be able to train you, support you, have discussions as well. Um, and also sometimes smaller organizations have less layers of bureaucracies. So you may be more able to easily change a process or a form without going through multiple layers of approval, um, as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 21:20

Yeah, absolutely.

Shelley Denison: 21:22

Yeah, that was, you know, my experience working in a smaller city is, um, there's so much less, distance between the way a system or the way a procedure works and the way that you think it should work better. Right? It, it didn't take too much bureaucracy, too much permission asking, um, to, to change things up, to try to improve things. Um, that was definitely something that I appreciated about working for a smaller city.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 21:52

But I, yeah. I mean, kind of going into our next point, it also takes, you know, your, the leadership that is willing to, they're willing to entertain changes, or at least think about them. Um, whereas I think there are also some times, Senior leadership is like, well, this is how we've always done it. And I'm comfortable doing it this way. And, uh, I want to continue doing it this way. Um, so I think. And that's not like a small town thing, that's like any place. But I do know in like smaller communities, you know, sometimes you do have people that have worked there for 20, 30 years, that's not uncommon. Um, and it might take a little bit of finessing to get them to think about things a little bit differently. But, um, you know, just because they're in a small town, just because they've had their job for 20 years doesn't mean that they wouldn't be willing to try something new.

Kristy Kilbourne: 22:48

I think it's a lot of it is in the approach as well. So there's a number of things in those scenarios. One, it's managing your own expectations and also figuring out what's What's, you know, a critical thing that should be changed or improved versus what's a stylistic preference as well. And what can you give up a little bit on your end, like there's some give and take in any case as well. Um, the other thing I would say is to look for windows of opportunity that actually connect with political agendas or are advancing certain priorities. And so. Like also in the instance of not feeling like you've been making much progress, I always encourage planners to reflect, uh, often, often on their work. Um, it may feel like you're not making much progress, but you can often look back and How far you've come in the course of a year or two, even if it's not finishing the project, even if it's breaking down. And I had this discussion just, uh, earlier today, actually with another planner who works in a public sector environment about many project milestones. Like even, you know, we finished the first phase of the project because sometimes there's some budget contingency for subsequent phases of projects, but being able to take stock of how far you have come or where you have updated a process or a template and looking for those sort of quick wins as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 24:33

Yeah, because planning, planning processes. Uh, do take a little time. If you want to do them well, I think they take a long time.

Shelley Denison: 24:44

I am, I took a, a negotiation class in grad school and one of the most helpful things that I learned about in this class that I feel like I use constantly in every interpersonal relationship in my life, um, whether it's professional or personal, um, is understanding the difference between an interest and a position. You know, for example, if you want to change a particular process in your planning department, your interest is, I want to improve this process because of this reason, right? Uh, your position is, um, so I want to use this new software or I want to use, you know, this new, um, this new template, right? Um, but recognizing that Your, your leadership, uh, might share your same interest, but have a different position. And so when you try to negotiate from a position based standpoint, you're not going to get anywhere. But when you try to negotiate from an interest based standpoint, that's when you can start being creative and recognize, okay, we both want the same thing, uh, let's figure out, uh, a way that we both like, a position that we both like. Um, and I feel like, you know, It seems like a lot of public sector conflict stems, uh, stems from, um, people arguing about positions rather than interests. Um, and I think that's true, um, in, in public sector workplaces as well.

Kristy Kilbourne: 26:19

Yeah, I think public sector workplaces are often They're risk adverse. And so when you're a planner working in a public sector risk adverse environment, you need to get curious and also consider how you're communicating with your audiences or what parts of the sort of ideal, maybe palatable or sellable within that environment. And also sometimes longer time planners who were involved in, you know, that was their project. And then, uh, you know, years and years ago, and now you're coming in, you're revisiting that project and picking it apart. They can take some of it personally around, you know, If, if there are criticisms of the style or those types of things, then, uh, there is some invested personal stake for people. So making sure that you're coming from a strengths perspective of acknowledging what's good about the current system and what works and, and seeing if you can keep or retain any of that as well.

Shelley Denison: 27:32

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like all of that, all of this just comes down to like, Relational intelligence. You know? Yeah. Which Mary and I have talked a lot about.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 27:42

Yes, we have.

Shelley Denison: 27:44

Yeah, so I think this brings us to our next question of you know, what do you do with with leadership or senior management that maybe isn't interested in adopting new ideas or isn't interested in working collaboratively with you or being supportive? How do you, how do you navigate that?

Kristy Kilbourne: 28:04

I think it comes back to that community piece, like I mentioned before, of having a support system, of checking your own expectations as well for, for the current role. Um, I think, The point that was mentioned about maybe, you know, your first job doesn't have to be your forever job, either. So, taking what you can out of those positions, there's a lot of learning that happens early in your career. So, you can most certainly get quite a lot out of most positions, even if the political conditions or the work environment isn't, you know, What you would hope it would be either, um, also finding your people and finding people within your space. So your particular organization who are making the kinds of changes that you want to be making and talking to them about how they did it and how they navigated that as well. And I think there's a lot to be said for proof of concept. And this applies to, um, Of course, when you're dealing with the public, showing them examples of how potentially developments work in other parts of similar communities, doing the same to convince leadership that sometimes there's this, well, we're not a big city or we don't have those resources or that sort of thing, but showing that a comparable municipality or someone else in a similar position has put forward this template or that project can go a long way. And I think focusing on your realm of control, or are there parts of this particular point with where you're at in your career that you can embrace as far as, you know, maybe it's a good time to work on becoming a AICP certified as well it it are there things that you can do Within the scope of your current role to build up skills that you need to use it as a springboard Into either a promotion in the same place where you may have more ability to influence in that position or into a different environment that works more for you as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 30:35

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 30:36

Yeah. Something that I'm, I'm still, I'm not going to say I'm bad at this. I'm learning how to improve, is choosing what hills I want to die on. Um, because it's like, when I have, when I have an idea. When I have specifically an idea about how something can be improved, I get so stubborn about it, and I, I sometimes don't know when to let things go, right? When to just, like, let things be. When to realize, like, okay, I'm not getting any traction with this. That's okay. I'll put it on the back burner and I'll revisit this later. Yeah, that's, that's one, one of the many reasons why I decided I wanted to work for myself. Um, yeah, but, but yeah, there's, there's kind of that, that, that issue of, you know, how do you decide what, what kinds of things you really want to advocate for? With your, uh, with your leadership and what things you can sort of let, let, just let them be as they are.

Kristy Kilbourne: 31:40

I had to, I had to dig out some feedback that I got in a 360 assessment on areas for improvement when I saw. This podcast outline As well, and one of the comments that I received of course, it was anonymous Was and I quote"consideration of political realities that may not always coincide with ideal solutions" See I pride myself on being a planner who has tried really hard not to get jaded over time and tried not to buy into that will never work, it's not worth trying, et cetera, et cetera. I always ask the question, but I think more importantly, I was also prepared to listen to the response and was seeking to understand, you know, in some cases the ideas that I brought forward wouldn't work and there were things that maybe I hadn't considered, but often I think there's an element that you may be able to push or implement in there. It's all about having an open mind and being open to. You know, it's not that someone may necessarily be saying no, because this is the way it's always been, But seeking to understand why is this the way it's always been and it goes back to sometimes public sectors being risk adverse Environments and there's often a story behind it Behind why that thing is that exact way. And sometimes if you can understand the why behind it, then that even makes it more palatable and easier to understand why they may not be accepting of certain recommendations as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 33:40

I would, I would use that technique a lot when I talk with the public and they would be like, I, I don't understand why the code is saying this. Like, this is something that I want to do. And I go, well, let's do a little history lesson. Here's why it came in. Or sometimes I would even take the time and I would go look. Back in like our 1964 zoning code, I'd be like, Oh, here's some historical reference to why this came to be. And it's okay if you don't like what the answer is or what it is, but at least we have a common ground of like, okay, where did this come from.

Kristy Kilbourne: 34:19

Yeah. And sometimes just by doing that deep dive with the manager or leader as well, they may also arrive at their own conclusion that like, Okay, yeah, this is actually outdated, and we should look at updating this, and maybe it's not a today thing, but let's put it on the radar as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 34:41

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 34:41

Definitely, yeah. It's hard, you know, it goes back to kind of what you were saying earlier, Kristy, of that, that kind of bigger reality of planning, that, um, we all, we all start out as just, just pie in the sky idealists. Like, that is, that is who is attracted to to this field, right? And there is, I have this whole soapbox rant about this. We have this terrible habit of, as planners, of like trying to beat that out of young planners, right? Trying to turn them into jaded cynics. Um, And, and I hate that. And I think that there is sort of, there has to be sort of this, you know, this middle ground, right? This, um, there, there has to be this recognition of like a, we can keep our heads in the clouds and our feet on the ground at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's a hard, that's a hard middle ground to find, but I'm pretty convinced that the future of our profession depends on it. Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 35:43

I would agree as well. I also think this conversation goes a little bit into the fact that we, like, in planning departments, I've noticed this myself, um, is we, we do a lot of work when we plan for things in the community, right? So say we have this big comprehensive plan, we plan out how we're going to do engagement, we plan out how the code updates are going to work, when all of that is going to happen. Um, you know, we plan for feedback and then adjustments from the feedback and then we move forward. Um, and then we continually keep people updated on how, how that is going, or at least that's how I, that's how I think it should be going. Um, but we don't internally do that within our planning departments. And I, I have found that sometimes it depends on who's in leadership or not, but sometimes we get so busy with the work that we already have that we forget to do the same thing within our departments, right? And so that's how we can get policies that have been the same for 30 years. Uh, that's how we get like We, we don't, we're not up to date on like the latest and greatest ways to communicate to the community about a zoning code update. And so, um, we get, we get sidetracked on, on that stuff, but like, I would argue it's so important to make sure that your department is also running smoothly and efficiently so that you can better do your job. And that could be as simple as, like, creating flyers. That describe each zone in your city or community, so that you can easily pull it, you can easily pull it, and then, uh, give it to somebody at the counter, and they have something they can take with them, and, and leave the counter with, um. But, that takes somebody's time to create that flyer, that takes somebody's time to think about that, um, I just happen to be a person that thinks that way, um, I know not everyone does, so, But that's where, like, taking, Things from other communities, uh, you know, like asking them if you can copy it and most of the time they're like, sure, um, and, and they can also describe what has worked with that. And what hasn't, um, I think, uh. We can just get a little bit stuck in keeping, like, doing the same things over and over and really thinking, okay, how is our department working? You know, like, let's. Quarterly, let's talk about it, you know, kind of thing, um, and making sure that You know, we're staying up to date on things that are current and helpful, which I think, you know, getting your AIC, getting your AICP does sort of force you to have to stay up to date a little bit because you have to go to conferences, you have to watch webinars so that you can keep your certification. But I would also hope that if you don't have your certification, you would continue to do that as well. And that's also why Shelley and I started this podcast because we wanted to create a resource for people that's like very. You know, real world on the ground planners could use and, um, start discussions in their own workplaces.

Kristy Kilbourne: 39:12

Yeah, and I think make work projects as well. Like you mentioned those flyers and that sort of thing can also be more acceptable If you're presenting them When like it's very difficult if you're not as efficient with your work If if your colleagues are all drowning in work, then it looks like it's just one of those other make work projects but if you are killing it with your files, you have extra capacity to take on some of these things, then, um, usually there's a little more support for moving forward with them. If you are saying, hey, I found this flyer in, you know, 20 minutes or 30 minutes, I could replicate for us. What do you think?

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 40:03

Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 40:03

Yeah. And you know, it goes back to that idea of, uh, yeah, that interest based, right? Of like speaking to the interests of your leadership, right? Saying, basically thinking like, okay, what, what do they want to see happen? Um, and how can I express the way that I want to improve the system using, using those terms, using that language.

Kristy Kilbourne: 40:25

Yeah, and I think political acuity and awareness, knowledge as a planner in a department can go a long way in order to be able to see the big picture, and what's the strategic direction of your organization, or what are the interests of the politicians that then you can anticipate where some of those challenges and pushback will be in the first place in order to position your solution in a way where there's a greater likelihood of getting uptake for it, where you can tie it to a priority and maybe that priority is The municipality has had a lot of challenges with residents not understanding and so this flyer is a solution to addressing that concern that's top of mind for senior leadership and politicians.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 41:24

Yes, absolutely.

Shelley Denison: 41:26

Yeah. And I, I feel like I've always had a lot of success with, um, trying to take a capacity building perspective of saying, you know, like, yeah, changing the system or creating this thing or doing this work up front will take some time, but in the long run, it will save us a lot of time. It will save us a lot of headache. It will build trust with the public. It will have all of these benefits that are going to continue to serve us. That's, that has generally been an approach that's, that's worked for me.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 41:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 41:55

And then, you know, with, with this question, what do you do? There, there seems to be two general kinds of poor leadership. There's the poor leadership that you can work with, and then there's the poor leadership that you can't work with, where there are just fundamental conflicts that seem intractable. Um, I, I will not. I will not share any personal experiences with that. Um, but what, what do you do about that? That second, what do you do about that second kind of leadership that's so difficult to work with?

Kristy Kilbourne: 42:34

I think either, and you hit the nail on the head as far as the two different kinds, and either you're willing to compromise and work within the framework and the system that you're in, or it may not be a great fit for you professionally in that environment. And I'm not talking about toxic workplaces because that's a whole other can of worms. Like there, there are workplaces where. There's just a difference in, or a rigidity around things, but it's not necessarily a toxic workplace. So toxic workplace, you probably need to get out of that. as soon as possible. Um, but I would say either you find ways to work within the system, accept the system as is, and be able to rationalize to yourself that, that system and the benefits of it, or, You again, yeah, first job doesn't have to be your job for life and you plan Strategically your exit at some point and that may not be tomorrow that and and often it's a lot more It's a lot better to be able to convince yourself if you have a plan As well. If you are, I recommend everyone always be keeping their eye out for, you know, what opportunities are out there, even if you're not actively looking for a new role, just to see what else is out there. Um, things that you could be doing within your current rigid environment to set yourself up for another opportunity in a different organization as well and do that and then you can satisfy yourself while you're in that role that you are making progress toward where you ultimately want to be in your career as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 44:35

Yeah. Yeah, and I, I would also say, um, you'll learn a lot about what you like and what you don't like in planning in your first job. And it's okay to not like everything in it, um, like there's, there's so many different types of like planning things that you do that I think take totally different types of brains and different types of people, um, and I think sometimes in the smaller communities it's hard because you are kind of the like Jack of all trades planner, right? So you have to do just about everything. But like, being able to understand what you like out of a planning job is going to be really important. And use that first job as a way to figure that out.

Shelley Denison: 45:21

Yeah. And then, you know, it's also the same exact thing, you know, when you, when you're doing the little reflective postmortem on a breakup with a bad boyfriend, right? Of asking yourself, like, okay, what did I learn? What did I learn from this?

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 45:38

Absolutely.

Shelley Denison: 45:40

There's the frustration with trying to work with leadership that might not see eye to eye with you. Um, but then there's also the frustration with the bureaucracy itself of trying to create the kind of workplace that you want to work in. Um, Cassandra talked about, you know, needing to sort of build this planning department. Um, And, you know, facing a lot of, a lot of frustration with the, the very, very slow process of trying to do that. So what, what advice would you have for them?

Kristy Kilbourne: 46:10

I would say look to others who have built planning programs from the ground up as well. Um, Cassandra wouldn't be the first to do that. the first person to do it. And like that postmortem sort of figuring out from others, what worked, what didn't work in their process. So you can hopefully fast track in your own situation. Um, advancing that would be my, my biggest recommendation as well, as far as building a planning program from sort of the ground up again, if it's all been sort of torn down.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 46:51

I would, I also just want to acknowledge that like, it is totally fine to feel frustrated on how slow bureaucracy works. Like, I think that is okay. And some of it is out of your control, and some of it isn't. A lot of it typically is out of your control. Um, but yeah, It, it's slow sometimes, and um, I just wanted to acknowledge that like, I totally understand. I've also felt that frustration, I, I literally work for the state now. Talk about bureaucracy, um, but it is something that is just, especially if you work in public sector, and even if you're in a private sector, you're gonna be dealing with, uh, your clients are gonna be public sector. Um, planning departments or, uh, communities, it's just part of planning, um, to have to kind of deal with, with that.

Kristy Kilbourne: 47:53

I would also say sometimes slow can be better. It can allow for the time to make sure that the policy or the code, whatever you're working on is done properly or your consultation and engagement like that takes time as well. So, and there's all sorts of contingencies like you mentioned, it could be consultants, it could be staffing changes, delays, those types of things. Rarely would I say I've I've seen a planning project stick a hundred percent to timeline as well.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 48:36

Yes. Yeah. And I, I completely agree. I think you learn that as well, um, in your planning as you're working on projects that are, are big projects and you understand like, Oh, here's what goes into creating a brand new comprehensive plan for a community. And yeah, it's going to take two years. For a variety of reasons, um, and yeah, sometimes, like, I would say it's probably not great to rush a comprehensive plan update or, you know, a rehaul, that's just not going to go over well. Um, you're not going to be able to get enough voices probably to make it a good product, in my opinion.

Kristy Kilbourne: 49:16

Yeah, and I think, I don't know where I've heard this, but that saying of sometimes you have to go slow first to go fast. Yeah. And so just as you were saying, Mary, about stopping and looking at your own internal department as well, and making sure that you have everything figured out internally too. Also capacity building and just building relationships over time. And I think the more solid your relationships are, the better working relationships you have to be able to make things go more quickly.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 49:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley Denison: 49:55

Yeah, I think, I think it kind of goes back to that, um, that piece of, of approaching it, trying to approach it instead of saying, Oh, this system is bad. I need to change it. But to also say, Okay, let me see if I can figure out why this system exists the way that it does. Uh, you know, we, we talk about bureaucracy, we use, you know, we use phrases like red tape as sort of this pejorative, like this unnecessary evil. But yeah, Mary's right. Sometimes. Those kind of processes that feel arduous and unnecessary, sometimes there's a good reason for them. You know, there's the, uh, kind of the, the, the exact opposite, the, you know, Silicon Valley kind of tech bro motto of, uh, move fast and break things. Um, in the public sector, we really can't break things. Um, as, as civil servants using taxpayer money, we really do not have room to break things. Um, so sometimes those processes need to be, uh, a little bit, uh, Well, sometimes those processes need to be very careful and very, uh, very, very thorough.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 51:13

Yeah. Well, and, I mean, we could also look back at planning, you know, in the early 1950s, I think they had the tech bro mentality of like, let's, Let's bulldoze through these communities, they're gonna be fine. And to create these utopian ideas that we have. Um, And we've learned that that, no. Straight up, no. Uh, that is why eminent domain is not really a thing anymore. Um, you know, that's, that's, That's why our public engagement processes have really expanded, um, and I don't think that's bad at all, um, you know, we can look back at, you know, some of the, those parts of planning and, and really analyze. You know, why is it different today than it was before? Um, and I'm glad that I'm glad that we're talking about that because I think that's important for us to acknowledge and be able to understand kind of where the profession has moved and and why, why we are choosing to do things differently today.

Shelley Denison: 52:26

Yeah, there's that paper that we all probably read in grad school, uh, in planning school, or it was at least assigned to us, um, the, uh, The Science of Muddling Through by Charles Lindblom, he wrote that in like 1959, and that was a response to this idea of, You know, complete rationality, rational planning, uh, that, um, we can have all of the data, we can have all of the stuff that we need to know up front, um, that that is the ideal. And it turns out, uh, no, that's not actually the case. That muddling through sometimes is, often is, what the process looks like. Uh, this, like, kind of incremental bureaucratic slog. Yeah. And so all of these All of these different things, you know, not feeling like you have the support or the mentorship or the preparation, you know, having conflicts with, with your leadership, feeling frustrated with, you know, the processes in your workplace are kind of a recipe for burnout. Um, And I, I know, you know, we talked a little bit about this, that I, I think burnout for planners can often look like that shift from being the idealist grad student to being the jaded, cynical planner. Um, and, and how do you, how do, how do we avoid that?

Kristy Kilbourne: 53:42

Yeah, I think it's, And burnout can take many, many forms. It can be in, it can be in relation to toxic work environment. It can be in relation to a lack of alignment between your interests or your values and the work you're doing. As I often see even more of these days, it can be, with the weight of the world and events happening in the world. It can be related to things completely outside of work. And I would say it's important to try to be a whole individual and a whole professional with interests that are outside of your work and make sure that you are taking care of yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, Socially, that you are interacting and engaging with your personal friends, other professional colleagues too. And I think keeping on developing yourself and like I mentioned, if you're really stuck in a work environment, look for the way out and be working toward that, even if that's not quitting your job tomorrow. It's feeling like you're making progress and you have control over, over things in your world, and you're in the driver's seat. So, doing all the things that you can do, whether it's, you know, becoming certified or whether it is getting additional training or that sort of thing, which will line you up for that next opportunity as well. And I think really the importance of connection as well with others can be hugely helpful.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 55:32

Yeah, I actually started a meeting with some friends. Like, like at least once a month, and we would just rant about our workplaces and sometimes like that was so helpful. I remember having a conversation with them and talking about, you know, talking about my work environment. I was like, I just feel like something's missing. And then I was like, I just feel like I miss having a team. And it just like clicked for me being able to talk to them about it and being like, Oh, That's what I want in my next job. I want to be able to be working in a, in a close knit team again. And that, that really helped me, one, be able to ask the right questions in interviews and also look for jobs where, uh, I felt like they were, they were talking about that.

Shelley Denison: 56:24

Yeah. I also think our, um, in, in every aspect of our life, uh, in every aspect of our lives, our beliefs, our perceptions of things are based on what we pay attention to. And I think. I think we're sort of hardwired with this negativity bias to pay attention to the stuff that doesn't go well, to pay attention to the complicated things, the hard things, the things that aren't working out. Um, and we miss a lot of the, the, the things that are good So something I did, uh, in my last job was I had a, a running Google doc of, of even just like tiny instances of things that felt good. Things that, that were like, this thing is better because I'm a planner and because I worked on this. Um, and so for example, like there was, there was one time where, uh, I was working with, uh, A homeowner, a guy who wanted to do some work in his backyard. It was this whole thing because he was close to a stream, so he needed this, like, environmental review, and it was, you know, I was going through the process with him and realizing this is going to be really expensive for him. And he was a veteran. He was on, um, you know, Uh, disability income and couldn't pay for that. And so I thought, like, I, I'm in a position to, like, help this guy out and advocate for him. And I, you know, worked with my boss to get, um, a lot of those fees waived, right? And that wasn't a huge thing for me. That took, you know, all of an afternoon. But I saved this guy a few thousand dollars. And for him and his world. That was really helpful. Yeah. So that went on my list. Right. So it was these little things of like, I helped this member of the public today, do this project or get in touch with the person they need to talk to. Right. I, I made things easier for somebody in my community because of the work that I do as a planner. And it's really easy to ignore those things. It's really easy to not. to not pay attention to those. But I think that we have to, I think that you have to, um, in order to, to not burn out.

Kristy Kilbourne: 58:30

Yeah, I love that. That's like a little gratitude practice and something that also is great for planners too is to like save Those kudos or shout outs that you get in emails, those types of things as well in a file folder. Of course you can use them potentially for job opportunities down the line as proof of the good work that you do. Um, but more so just for yourself personally to look at exactly like what you said to say, yeah, I, the work I'm doing is, Making a positive impact because at the end of the day, exactly as you said, Shelley, a lot of planners come into planning because they care deeply about community or about certain issues in planning, and they want to feel like their work is making a positive impact but that positive impact can just be like your experience with the veteran in like that had a huge impact although it was for one individual right that's a big impact

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 59:38

i love that because it's so easy to remember the negative things like i could probably give you a list of like My most negative experiences at the counter, but I forget all of the good ones. Um, you know, it's one of those things where it's like traumatic events kind of stay in your mind easier than than non traumatic ones. Um, so I love the idea of like, actually making that a habit and a practice to write down the good.

Shelley Denison: 1:00:02

I, I feel like it's, it's, you know, the curse of the idealist to feel like success means making waves, making huge changes, right? That that's what success is. And, um, There is, I've discovered, a lot of freedom, there's a lot of liberation in telling, in telling myself, I, I am not going to single handedly fix Oregon's housing crisis. I, I am not going to single handedly, uh, reverse climate change. I'm just not, right? Um, so I don't have to hold myself to that standard anymore and, uh, sort of redefining like what, what does that success mean? What does making an impact actually mean? And sometimes it looks like saving, you know, a veteran a few thousand dollars in land use fees, right? Okay, so we have one more question for you, Kristy. Um, every planner. Um, At least planners who have worked in the public sector has a story of some kind of completely bananas interaction with, um, a member of the public. What is your story?

Kristy Kilbourne: 1:01:20

This is so, such a difficult question because after spending over a decade working in Municipal government, and I did a lot of engagement work, actually, with different citizen interest groups, advisory committees, um, I have had lots of bananas experiences, and I think, um, also as a frontline planner, you can become the inside expert on very random topics that you never anticipated you would become the inside expert on, like, pet crematoriums, just because you had an inquiry about that particular thing that evolved into a much bigger issue as well. Um, but something that really, stuck with me was I had this instance where I was working on a big and complex project and there was a very engaged and concerned long time resident and he was very astute He read all of the planning policies, was trying to educate himself on legislation. He came out and spoke at the hearings, at the public meetings. He wrote all the comments in as well. He coordinated with his neighbors too, so we know these guys. kind of individuals as well. And I had many calls with this particular individual, um, for this project and they were long calls. They were like one hour calls. Um, and at the end of the one hour, he would say, Well, I didn't quite get to all of my questions so I'm hoping that we can schedule another hour. And so I, I obliged. I was the public, public sector planner. Um, I spent hours with this person. And at the end of the project, uh, we were putting forward the recommended policies and he was part of the notification distribution, but I sent him a personal email um, at the end, because I anticipated that this person would definitely be out at the meeting. So I wanted to get ahead of things. And, um, so I sent him this personal email to say, you know, here's the email that was sent out to the distribution list. I hope that you saw some of your comments reflected. In the recommended policies and that, you know, again, reiterating that I appreciated this person's input in the process and, uh, only to receive a response back from him that he had actually moved because he didn't like the direction that the municipality was headed with the elected officials. Um, however, He thought staff was doing a really good job, and thanks so much for addressing all of his concerns. Um, but he would no longer need to be notified of this project. So, yeah, all that to say, I think sometimes our biggest critics, um, And I think when we listen, respond, and engage, those people can sometimes be our best allies. And in many ways, they push us, they provide us with accountability, um, as well. And it can be really uncomfortable as a planner to receive sort of what you perceive as being negative feedback, some of which that feels like, personal at times, but those are also those challenging conversations. Those challenging experiences can also help you as a planner to build the confidence to that you can, you can do this, you can work with people. Even people who have very different views as well, um, and come to resolution and come to positive paths forward as well.

Shelley Denison: 1:05:17

Yeah, that's so important. I think, you know, seeing the human and the person. Yeah, it's, I think it's, I think it's a, it's an easy trap for planners to fall into to say like, oh, these NIMBYs, you know, don't know what they're talking about and, you know, we just, we just need to ignore them and, but, but recognizing like, no, they're, they're members of the public too. They are members of our community. We serve them. We need to take the time to engage with them, honestly.

Mary Heberling-Creighton: 1:05:42

And when, when there is a member of the public like that, every planner knows who they are and they know, Oh, my coworker's got that person on the phone. Well, okay. Well, I can't, I can't talk to them for the next half hour. Cause they're probably going to be busy answering all of their questions.