Better Planners Podcast

Orchestrating the Vibes - Planning like an Artist

• Mary Heberling-Creighton, Shelley Denison, Miguel Vazquez

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In this episode, Mary and Shelley interview planner and artist: Miguel Vazquez! He is a FAICP planner who likes to mix the worlds of art and planning together. We discuss how to think like an artist to become a better planner and why that is important. We also discuss various projects he's been involved in where art was used to assist in planning activities.

Miguel is also heavily involved in the Latinos in Planning Division of the American Planning Association (APA) and the California Chapter of the APA.

In the episode, Miguel discusses an activity around dancing and movement as part of that year's annual conference for California APA. You can watch the outcome of that here: https://youtu.be/IogrB6cyGfc?si=yW0p-thoMY25PVPR

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Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You're listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton.

Shelley Denison:

And I'm Shelley Denison.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You can find us on Instagram at better planners. Planners is plural on the webpage for the Oregon APA chapter and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms.

Shelley Denison:

You can also get in touch with us by sending an email to better planners podcast at gmail. com.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support us at Kofi at Kofi. com slash better planners. That's K O hyphen F I. com slash better planners.

Shelley Denison:

I am so excited about our episode today. Um, we are going to be talking with a planner in California who has a really impressive and really eclectic. career history. Um, his name is Miguel Angel Vasquez. Uh, he's an award winning urban planner. Right now he works, um, as the health equity and regional planner for the Riverside University health system, focusing on public health and strengthening the integration of planning and health equity through the collaboration with non traditional partners, data analysis, and community engagement. He has been the recipient of the 2018 American Planning Association President's Award and the 2020 APA California Distinguished Contribution Award. And the 2021 Dale Prize from the California State Polytechnic University in Pomona. Um, he is also a fellow of the American Institute of Certified Planners, which if you're not familiar with that designation with FAICP, um, it is a big deal. Not very many people, um, are, uh, recipients of FAICP certification. Um, he has a bachelor's degree in urban studies and planning from California State University in Northridge, and is currently pursuing a master's degree in public health at Johns Hopkins University as a Bloomberg American Health Initiative fellow. Uh, Miguel, welcome.

Miguel Vazquez:

Hello, everybody. What an opportunity to be here today. It's really exciting.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah, we're really excited. Um, we had kind of a pre conversation a couple of weeks ago that I loved. Um, it was one of those conversations that was like all over the place, but in the best possible way.

Miguel Vazquez:

That's my style. All over the place. I'm a generalist.

Shelley Denison:

Exactly. That's exactly right. Um, and today we're going to be talking to Miguel, um, about a few really, um, interesting things about the work that he does. One of his pursuits in planning is with, uh, art and this parallel between planning and art. So before we get into that, Miguel, um, could you tell us a little bit about how you got into, into planning? Um, and then also how you got into that idea of planning, um, and art being similar things.

Miguel Vazquez:

Absolutely. I got into planning by accident. I would say Most planners experience that way into the profession. I was studying geography when I was at Cal State Northridge. And geography is very similar to planning in some sense. I would say maps, for instance, are the lifeblood of geographers, but also of planners. And I had an opportunity to discover that actually planners can apply what they learn or what they see by analyzing maps and it makes something with it. Whereas geographers, by and large, they, they explain phenomena. And it was by accident because I was taking a class on quantitative geography that students from the Urban Studies and Planning degree were also taking. So I had a conversation there, and, a student from, from Planning. And she, I don't know what she said, but whatever she said prompted me to switch my My degree from geography to planning, and it was the best thing that I, that I've done when it comes to, to my career. But to address your question related to my interest in, in the arts, when I was doing my bachelor's at Northridge, I discover that maps actually are art. And I remember, we had a class in which we needed to, we were creating a digital elevation model, which is a 3D representation of the topography of a place. So, we did our project and I selected a community in southwest Riverside County called Temecula. And the the end product was a black and white map, but you could see the different topography by by the shadows. But then we transform that map through using Photoshop. So then we were able to add colors to it, and you could see now that the reds represented the highest elevation and the blues the lowest elevation. So there was this range of color. And it came out amazing. It was like a piece of art. And I thought, oh, I'm going to frame this thing. So I put it into a frame, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is pure art. And I brought it back to class, and the professor was blown away. He was like, whoa, we've never seen anything like this before. And so that was the beginning of, for me, to make that connection between a professional field and the arts. And later on, when I started practicing planning, somehow, actually it wasn't by accident, I went to a, an exhibition at UCR, which is the University of California, Riverside, which was At the time, creating a new center for suburban, um, innovation, that sort of thing. I can't remember the name of it right now. But as part of the inauguration of that center, they had an exhibit. And they invited a selected number of artists to bring their art that represented their idea of what development was doing to the environment. And that was a powerful exhibition because the artists were criticizing my profession. Planning was In a sense, the creator of the dissemination of the environment. Obviously, that was one perspective. But for me, I felt this connection with the art and I thought this is exactly what I want to do. But because I, I was a planner, I'm still a planner, I didn't have an outlet to, to, to express that idea of how the arts can challenge you Or can make you see the world differently, but that is how I sort of got into this idea of. Integrating the arts in planning. I hope that was a successful answer for you.

Shelley Denison:

I love that idea of, like, maps being the, I don't know, the gateway drug into making this connection between planning and art. I love that. And, um, I'm really into this idea of, of planners, um, benefiting from thinking like artists, from taking an approach to planning, um, the same way that we would approach art. I think that planners tend to try to be very like rational minded. We try to think like economists. We try to think like engineers, like architects, right? Like, like, um, these very kind of rational, brain heavy sort of approaches. How do you think planners can take more of an approach, like an artist, to planning?

Miguel Vazquez:

Yeah, I think, to make it short, planners and anyone who is in the business of shaping the built environment, I think they need to activate their emotional side to it. Our professions are driven by data. But our professions can also be driven by, by emotions. Who are we impacting as a result of all these numbers that we are collecting to demonstrate a certain outcome or possibility? I think if planners can think and allow themselves to question Or imagine how will these project plan or decision or policy will impact not the people who may be closely behind it, but the community at large, because that's who we serve. It doesn't matter if we work for the public or the private or the nonprofit sector at the end of the day as planners, we have a mission to. I would say create healthy communities, but not everyone is there, not everyone has sometimes the training, or sometimes the training focuses more on the technical aspects of what we do. I think the profession is changing actually in planning. I'm not sure about the other ones, but I I can see that architects, for instance, they are really big. Well, no beginning. They have been working on expanding how to rethink or approach to to development. So when it comes to that. I'm going to use a funny word because, you know, I think you mentioned rational way of doing things. I think we need to allow ourselves to be irrational, but irrational sometimes is human. It may be rational when it comes to the space of or technocratic sort of approach to what we do, but we need to bring in the other side of our brain to help us. Imagine, to help us feel, having more empathy for the people that will be impacted, and that requires a lot of work. You cannot just sit around and think, well, oh yeah, there may be these impacts to this community or not. It is important for planners to get out and see, just like a plein air artist. You know, the artists that bring their easels and their canvas and their paints to the outdoors to paint what they see. And when they paint as they see, they study the landscape. They don't sit in a studio. Imagining in a place, and obviously they can do that, there's, there's all ways of practicing the creation of art, but that gives you an idea of how planners can bring different components to, to their practice by having not only keen observation, but dive deep into conversations. And when I say dive deep in conversations, mostly. Listening to what people may feel a result of what may be planned or what they would like to see, you know, that's part of community engagement, right? But sometimes I don't think we do enough community engagement as artists can. I think artists have these. innate way of bringing people together. And they use, not necessarily that they are special, I think they have the ability to bring that side of the brain to open up collaborations and to get people interested and excited. And, and feel happy, or to make them challenged like I was when I saw those pieces of art that, that exhibit, that moved me, that was highly emotional, and, and, and I think planners can do that. I am, um, I would say, I'm an example of that in the sense that I learned how to integrate in a balanced way my emotions with my technical skills. So it's doable. Maybe. An idea is cooking up right here. Maybe we could create a, a workshop that can show planners how to go about it incrementally.

Shelley Denison:

I love that. Yes, absolutely. We should for sure do a workshop on this. I, something that I love about that, that connection. is that planners have tried to quantify what makes a city good. You know, what makes a city livable. And we talk about important things like green space, and trees, and wide sidewalks, and narrow streets, and pedestrian frontage. Like, we talk about all of these concrete things, but when it comes down to it, The experience of enjoying being in an urban environment is fundamentally like a very subjective, very emotion forward experience, right? Like, we can talk about all of these concrete things, but when it, when it really comes down to it, like, a good city, just like, it has the right vibes. You know, like that, that I think is the best way that I know how to describe it is it's not because of the architecture. It's not because of, you know, the things that planners or engineers or architects have created. It's the vibes of the place, you know, and that is fundamentally an emotional experience of a city.

Miguel Vazquez:

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love that. The vibes, the vibrations, because places Each place has that is the impression that you get when you walk along the street or when you drive along it. Or even when you see it from photographs, there's that vibe. And I think now people are really focusing, for instance, in Paris, one of the greatest cities of the world. But if you go to Paris, not everyone, not not every place is exciting if you walk into the neighborhoods that may be not as maintained, if you will. Every place has that, and it has a certain vibe, but the vibe is also, it's not always necessarily given by the place, it's how we interpret the place individually. Because I may get very excited by Looking at people in the favelas of Rio maybe doing, I mean, amazing work that gives me a highly emotional high, if you will, but they live in poverty, it is hard to live in the favelas, and I've never been to a favela, but you see all the interventions that are being done through the idea of placemaking, for instance. Um, It is like, wow, this is really cool. Right? But that idea of the vibe, how, how do we think about creating the right vibe for for the people who live there? I think that's the first layer. And then you can begin to think, well, how do we create the vibe for people visiting? Or how do we create the vibe for the people who we wanna attract. In some places people create the vibe, so it's exclusive. How do we create a vibe so that others don't come into our community? And you know, in some cases, it's pretty easy. You know, gated communities, for instance, that's a vibe. And you go in, and you know, it's the right vibe for the people who live there. And this is, this is America. This is how we have the ability to have different kinds of vibes. But at the end of the day, I think, you At least from my line of work, when I think about balancing who has the really good vibes and who doesn't when it comes to access to opportunity, not necessarily always the physical environment, but access to opportunity to education or jobs that provide livable wages or affordable housing. Those are some of the things that are part of the vibe. So if we, I really love this idea of the vibe now, because what I would love to do, what if we dissect that idea? Okay, so this is a place with vibe, you know, LA vibe, or what's the, the vibe, you know, there's actually these places that are kind of intended to bring revenue into, into, into their communities. Yeah, I think there's the LA vibe. Where they have the, the, the convention center and I think there's a stadium or something, I don't go to look to the vibe, but I think I've been there, but that intentionally there is thinking behind creating a place that is attractive to the masses, to the people who live there, or people from elsewhere, for the purpose of generating revenue. And cities need revenue to be able to operate, to be able to provide services, to clean up the streets, or to make sure that there's lighting, and so on and so forth. So it's all kind of connected. It's very complex. So that's why I love what I do, or being a planner. It gets me to think about all these complexities. and we're problem solvers and, and, and we're idea makers. So if we can sort of go back a little bit to, to how to use that artistic brain into what we do. I think we, we are, I'm gonna say 70% there. If planners can take the time 30% to activate that side of who they are, I think our communities would be better off at the, at the neighborhood street level. And at the larger context.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And it's like. When we think about the job of an artist, right, their job is to see all of the details, all of the minutiae, um, and then to use their, their observation to capture the vibe. Right? Of what it is they're seeing in whatever medium they work in, right? Um, and, and to do it in such a way that then when somebody sees their art, or hears their art, or touches their art, or smells their art, or whatever, like, gets that same sense of that vibe, right? And that, that is fundamentally the job of an artist. And I think, What you're describing should also be the job of a planner, of being able to, like, really meaningfully, intentionally observe, um, and see what's going on. Um, and, and capture the, the spirit of that in some way.

Miguel Vazquez:

Yeah. So, after that experience, uh, after visiting that exhibit that I mentioned at UCR, soon after that I wanted to do something similar. Because I, I'm an artist. And I started toying with materials to create pieces that depicted what I do, you know, at the time I was a solid waste coordinator. So I created a piece that depicted issues related to exposure to carcinogenics. You know, uh, substances that can make you get cancer. And, and those are sometimes found in, in wood that is used for building. This wood is injected with, uh, copper, nitric copper or something of that sort. And when you cut it, all the dust could get into your system. And once you get that in certain quantities, you could develop cancer. So I created a piece that sort of, um, was intended to raise awareness about that. And in these pieces of wood, you know, two by fours, they have a label in there. They have a warning statement that these is you need to be very cautious with that. But from experience and seeing people working with it, people don't read those labels. They're like, Hey, I'm just working on my project. And the labels, the font is just so tiny that you just can't read it, it's, why bother? And you know, okay, this is probably dangerous, but I don't care. So I wanted to raise awareness around that. But I was like, well, you know, this wouldn't be, this is not exactly what I want to do. So I invited a few friends to join me in creating a, a project that would bring planners and artists to collaborate together. And we ended up with a project called Art as a Vehicle to Understand Land Use Planning and Sustainability. At the time, those were the keywords. That was like 15 years ago. So in short, we named it Art VULUPS, which is a funny kind of name, but that's the best I was able to do at the time. Because, you know, we had to move fast, come up with a name. So, so that project brought in, I think, I can't remember anymore, but maybe 15 artists and 15 planners to collaborate on creating one piece of art that depicted a planning concept or a planning issue. And it was just a fantastic way for planners to actually share what they did with an artist and for an artist to make an interpretation. Of what they learned from the artists. It was amazing. And we were able to come up with, yeah, 10 or 15 pieces. I, again, I can't remember exactly the number. But we had different exhibitions throughout Riverside County. And people got to learn about planning. Or to be aware that planning exists. And that planning is powerful. And that planning is one of the first steps into creating. A place, any place. So that was, I think, in a way, an opportunity to see how through collaboration actually planners can learn from, from the creatives who brought in their talents in ceramics, photography, painting, uh, movement, and speaking of a good movement, right now I'm working on an amazing project with an artist who has a group called Ground Series. We're going to integrate their practice into a mobile workshop for the upcoming APA California Conference. The mobile workshop is to highlight civil rights in the city of Riverside, and there's a particular walk along downtown and we are integrating a dance movement performance into that. So I wanted to mention this because you mentioned how the artists sort of see the world, how they make interpretations. The, the lead of the, of the, of the group, her name is Brittany Delaney. She's amazing, she's absolutely fantastic in the way that she is imagining what is going to happen during these traditional mobile workshop. She's going to disrupt it basically, because she's going to create an opportunity for planners, not only to learn about, okay, why, how do you were able to install these monuments about civil rights leaders. Including Gandhi and Martin Luther King and others, she's going to help the planners activate their emotions and to think beyond the technical things that we like, you know, well, how much did it cost? What sort of permits do you need? And so on and so forth. She's going to assist in, in, in bringing the message of civil rights into the conversations that we'll have. But also, what does it mean for people to think about civil rights? What is her personal role into that? And she's planning to achieve that through incorporating opportunities for planners to experience movement. Not necessarily asking them, okay, now you need to dance, or you need to do this performance. But how through simple ways of even pointing to a place. When you point, you are actually moving to express what you are seeing, and you want others to focus exactly on why is it that you have a question about that. I mean, that, that in itself is brilliant, just to think, I don't think about it, you know, pointing to tell me about that place. So, she's thinking about asking planners to be intentional, to open up conversations about things that They are of interest to them. So that just gives you an example of how, even though we may not all be artists, we can collaborate with the artists and we can learn from them so that they, we, because you know, the lessons I'm learning right now through collaborating with, with Brittany is that I am, I'm, I'm learning so I'm going to apply some of those lessons through my practice. So that is an opportunity for all of us planners to consider.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. That's so cool. I'm, I'm super curious. Um, what would you say to someone, uh, a planner who is maybe skeptical about the, the importance or the relevance of, uh, this, this kind of more Esoteric, artistic, emotional, um, experience of planning. How would you, I don't know if, I don't know if how would you change their mind is the right question, but, um, what, what, how would you respond if someone, if someone, you know, we're, we're really skeptical about this kind of approach.

Miguel Vazquez:

I would respond by saying that they probably, well, it really depends the who, you know, we have the young, very young people and we have very old people. I mean, there's a spectrum, right? So it would really depend on who I'm talking to. But if I was talking to a peer, for instance, who was skeptical, who may have been resisting this idea of the value of the arts into a profession, I would respond, well, Tell me about a moment in which you went to a performance Or you went to a city and you found a monument or an interesting bench or amazing landscaping that was curated by somebody. Or you went to a concert. Tell me if you felt disappointed in the sense that you were like, eh, this is garbage. If you're a planner, I would doubt that they would not come up with an experience that was memorable. That they were like, wow, this was amazing. Maybe the graffiti was amazing, but they, they think, oh, this graffiti is unsanctioned art, and it's like, but it's there, but at the same time, they remember it. It made an impression.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah.

Miguel Vazquez:

And in this case, you know, the, the, I would say a positive impression. That would be my question. And then I would say, well, There is your answer, because somebody, or a group of people, intentionally created this intervention, I'm going to call it intervention, that you and many other people experience that they remember with joy.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah. Yeah.

Miguel Vazquez:

That's what I would say, I mean, it's that simple. And it's everywhere. It's everywhere. So it's not a new idea. It has been practiced for since we came to exist on this land. Creativity.

Shelley Denison:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's something. I think, um, I think humans, For some reason, we are obsessed with this idea that we we're always super rational decision makers, right? That like being, being a mature, enlightened person means not acting on your emotions, not making decisions based on your emotions, but that's like the opposite of how our brains are wired to work. Like we are highly emotional and we make decisions based on our emotional experiences all the time. And I think. Yeah, instead of trying to push past that or trying to think that somehow we can, we can evolve past that, I think it's important to embrace that and to recognize the value of what it means to be a member of a species that is so, like, deeply emotional.

Miguel Vazquez:

Yeah, we're, we're emotional and we're communal.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah.

Miguel Vazquez:

And I think the arts, that's what they do. Actually, there's a purpose. To give us that direction of humanity, because when we talk about the arts, sometimes we think, oh, well, galleries or performances or going to concerts or Hollywood and so on and so forth. But that is not just it in the sense of what the arts mean, because the arts actually are intrinsically connected to culture. And culture is how we live. Sometimes people talk about car culture. Well, it is culture. Sometimes culture is driven by religion. This is what we do on Sundays. Or this is how we celebrate on certain days. Or civic pride is part of the culture on this particular day. We celebrate an event that gave us joy or gave us liberation or something of that sort. And that is represented or that is actually celebrated through creativity. Fireworks? I mean, come on.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah.

Miguel Vazquez:

That is, those, that's an expression of creativity. Just seeing all these lights up in the sky, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the smoke, you know, the day after, but the spectacle in how it brings people together when you celebrate, when you have a day in which your community feels a sense of cohesion. That is driven by culture in who puts out the shows, the creatives. They are the ones who are hired to, okay, you know, the, yeah, going back to the, the fireworks, they're artists and they have to use their techniques and whatever technology they use to make sure that it's safe and that is done on a timely orchestrated way. And so now, if I can take that back to planning, for instance, we orchestrate things to our orchestrators of, okay, let's see, we're going to have a, We're going to create the master plan for the community, or we're going to, to do a new one. Okay, what's the plan? So we imagine, just like artists, we get into the same space, and then we, we make a map, a mental map, we'll put it in paper, and then we say, this is how we're going to do it, this is how much money we have, these are our deadlines, this is how we're going to bring the people together. So in a way, No, in, in, in, in many respects, and I'm just going to say it, I think if people who join planning, they're artists at heart. They, they, they use the same methodology. Researching, learning, visioning, bringing people together, realizing the vision. Those are the kinds of things that artists do. I think what the planners can benefit now from learning about the process of artists is again to, to let that side of us be free and manifest. Because I think the places that they're the most memorable, you can save that vibe. That people put their heads together to create these experiences for people. And places also change over time. They're not always static. So there's always opportunities to recreate. So if you have a really boring place, don't worry about it. You can make it fun. If you don't know how, bring people who have that ability. Hire artists in your team. Oh my gosh, that would change. That would change, it would be a paradigm shift, the day in which we can, as part of every planning team, what if you had an artist at City Hall, and there's some City Halls that actually have artists in residence programs. And I mean, to me that is, I think, a promising approach to our profession, because again, artists can help us to, to get us to be humble and, and, and, and nothing that we have all the solutions to all the problems, even you were problem solvers and technocrats, we don't know, we don't know it all. We don't have it all. Sometimes the solutions that we need are very simple. And people may be doing them elsewhere, outside of the U. S., but we are so proud that, no, that's not how we do things. That wouldn't work for us because it's, it's below us. And yet people have this need. And we could meet the need by marrying examples from elsewhere, from communities that have found a way to address their struggle. So, that's I think another aspect of valuing, valuing not only the arts, but the role of the artist.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah, that's so good. I love the word that you use, like orchestrating. Um, like I love the visual that that creates and it's making me think like, um, you know, I think, I think a lot of times planners have this experience of, you know, you meet somebody new and you tell them that you're an urban planner and they ask, Oh, what do you do? And it's always kind of hard to, like, explain what it is we do, but I think what I'm going to start saying is something like, I orchestrate the vibes.

Miguel Vazquez:

I love it. Wow. That's your new brand.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah, I think that's going to be the title of this episode, orchestrating the vibes.

Miguel Vazquez:

Oh, I love it. I love it.

Shelley Denison:

Perfect. Um, yeah, this is, I love this so much. Um, Miguel, this has been such a good conversation. Thank you so much for taking time to talk to us.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yes, thank you.

Miguel Vazquez:

Yeah, yeah. And if you wouldn't mind I know Vanitha is here, would you mind introducing Vanitha? Because she's the one who made this happen. Perhaps share some of, you know, what we're here and some reflections. That would be fun.

Shelley Denison:

Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanitha Murthy:

Hi, everybody. This is Vanita Murthy. I'm the co chair for the Oregon APA Diversity Equity Inclusion Group. I totally enjoyed Miguel's conversation and I met him with the intent to connect, to Oregon and also for our planners to help them, connect to national initiatives and, get this textured. Overview about, art in I think Miguel has delivered more than I expected. I really, really appreciate his involvement and also extend our gratitude from Oregon APA, for his, valuable takeaways and also sharing his journey with us. Thank you, Miguel. And thank you, Mary and Shelley for this outstanding episode the change that you're trying to create at Oregon APA. You are fantastic. I'm very grateful from the bottom of my heart. Thank you.

Shelley Denison:

Awesome. Thank you, Vanitha. Thanks for connecting us.

Miguel Vazquez:

Thanks everybody, Shelley and Mary, it's been a pleasure and honor that you invited us.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Maybe we'll start a series, it'll be Conversations with Miguel.

Shelley Denison:

Yeah,

Miguel Vazquez:

I love it, oh my gosh, yeah.

Shelley Denison:

Do you want to be like our third co host?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.