Better Planners Podcast

Stories and Advice from Planners Across Oregon

• Mary Heberling-Creighton, Caroline Crisp, Casandra Brown, Alexa Repko, Vanitha Murthy

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Welcome to another episode of the Better Planners Podcast! This time Mary is joined by four other planners who also happen to be our podcast volunteers! They bring stories and advice from all across Oregon with various backgrounds and expertise. In particular, we focus on the good, bad, ugly, and funny parts of working in urban and rural planning. We also provide some good advice for new planners or folks in planning grad school or people who are looking into planning as a career. We hope this episode brings fun, relevant, and informative stories to new and old planners alike. 

Article mentioned by Alexa as part of her funny story: https://vtdigger.org/2019/06/23/westfords-middle-finger-there-to-stay/

 Enjoy! 

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Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You are listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton. And I'm Caroline Crisp. I'm Cassandra Brown. And I'm Vanitha Murthy. And I'm Alexa Repko. You can find us on Instagram at Better Planners. Planners is plural on the webpage for the Oregon APA chapter, and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms. You can also get in touch with us by sending an email to Better Planners podcast@gmail.com. And if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support us at Kofi at kofi.com/better planners. That's K O fi.com/better planners. Today's episode is all about talking with planners and talking about the good, the bad, and sometimes the ugly and funny parts of it. And as you can tell, we have multiple people today on our call. They also happen to be all of our podcast volunteers. We're all volunteers, but these are also. In addition to, uh, to myself, uh, there's also other volunteers that bring in their diverse backgrounds and areas that they work in across the state of Oregon. So we thought it would be fun to hear from all of our volunteers and talk about what it's like being planners in Oregon. So let's start out with some introductions and we'll do some quick bios on each guest as well as. Um, their job title, primary role in planning, and a fun fact or quirky thing about them. So let's start with Caroline.

Caroline Crisp:

Awesome. Thanks Mary. Hi everybody. My name is Caroline. I am a transportation planner for the State of Oregon. I focus on grant writing, project management, and, you know, really just advocating for, for projects from our local level. A fun. Fact about me is that I have a chihuahua named Miss Piggy, who is the light of my life. And I'll probably mention her multiple times in this, but yeah, lots of funny stories.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, we need, we need multiple Miss Piggy stories, I think. Um, so next, let's go with Casi.

Casandra Brown:

I'm Casi. I am a planner two with the city of Medford, um, in our comprehensive planning division. Um, so I get to work on big plans that look at citywide growth and development. Um, and a fun fact about me, I guess, uh, is that I am learning how to truffle hunt with my dog. Her name is Pepper.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

That's a great, that's a great name for a dog. Is she speckled, like black and white?

Casandra Brown:

Yeah, totally. When everybody, you know, folks are always like, oh, your dog is so cute. What's your dog's name? And then I tell them the name and they say, oh yeah, she looks like a pepper. So that's cute.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Alright, so let's go with ve Vanitha.

Vanitha Murthy:

Hi everyone. I'm Vanitha. Like Caroline, I am also a transportation planner in transition. I specialize in finding and understanding how to sustainably evolve communities and planning a fun fact about me. I love exploring urban spaces on foot and love the vibes of downtowns, which are culturally diverse and unique, and I love spicy food. The fun fact is I was once walking through downtown San Jose, accidentally discovered a group. Doing Bhangra. It's a vibrant, traditional folk dance from the Punjab area of India, let's say. I had to hold back from going all in.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Nice. Yeah, I think, I think most planners love walking around. Like that's one of my main forms of activities is just walking around places. I haven't met a planner that doesn't like to do that yet. Alright, and finally, Alexa, go for it.

Alexa Repko:

Hi everybody. My name's Alexa Repco. I'm an associate planner for the City of Bend in the current planning division, so working on land use applications and building permits. Um, fun fact about me, I'm getting into sewing, um, and my next project is a chore coat. I'm gonna be making it out of an old blanket. So excited about that.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Ooh, very cool. I'll reintroduce myself. Although I think most people recognize my voice. I'm Mary, I'm one of the co-hosts for The Better Planners Podcast. I work for the State of Oregon in, disaster recovery housing work. So I, uh, deal a lot with folks on the ground. That are trying to recover after disasters. So, um, a very relevant topic, unfortunately, in the current, days right now. But, I do mostly community engagement and outreach work. So, and a fun fact or quirky thing about me, I guess a, a quirky thing is my husband and I have basically dug out most of our front and backyards to put in rain gardens. Um. And it seems like a very Portland thing to do, but it's also really fun. So

Alexa Repko:

very planner thing to do.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yes. A, a planner Portland thing to do for sure. Yeah. Alright, we're gonna sandwich the bad and the ugly with some good things and some funny things. So we're gonna start out with the good moments of, of working and planning. We thought this would be fun ways to, one, educate folks that are interested in planning to kind of learn what it's like to be a planner. What are, you know, maybe some of the realities of it, but also it's just kind of fun for other planners to hear similar stories or other stories that maybe they. Also have experienced or they haven't. And it's just kind of fun to hear. So we thought this would be a fun episode for folks to listen to. So let's start out with some of the good. So we'll start with talking about some of our proud moments or projects that we're especially proud of that we've worked on in our planning career success stories that we've had, um, and any sort of like good lessons learned from those experiences as well. So let's start with, let's start with Alexa.

Alexa Repko:

Well, I was recently in the local news, um, because one of my projects was being, um, was in the spotlight for good press, which is good. Um, I was working on a mixed use project. Um. So there's, it was a commercial painting business and there were a couple housing units on site for employees and they are affordable. So, um, it was a quote unquote small victory for affordable housing, which I will gladly take.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It is always nice when. We get nice recognition in the media. Sometimes, uh, that's not always the case. So it is nice when that gets picked up for sure. Okay, let's go for the next good story. Let's do Vanitha.

Vanitha Murthy:

My proud moment was learning on the go during a former policy update. I was an engineer that was thrust into planning. I had never worked in India. It was my first experience, um, as a planner. And it was a, successful policy update process. Just getting it done as a planner, uh, from mm-hmm. Coming from a technical background was sort of interesting. From a different cultural setting into another different cultural setting. You don't know what the steps are to get things done. I think getting from the starting line to the finish line was really a challenge. I, I also do want to add that during my, uh, policy update process, I discovered I had research skills. It was sort of like a tricky discovery because a lot of the, uh, work that I did in, in involved understanding regulations and didn't know the scope, who to contact proactive relationship building skills, um, cultivating, uh, and nurturing connections. And coming from a culture that taught me empathy uh, it helped me foster better relationships with within my team and also learn how collaboration can be very beneficial, especially when you're doing public involvement. Policy update. So my lesson for folks would be to embrace every opportunity. Um, it could be the key to stepping up, learning and recognizing small skills from the past, or every little thing that you do can lead to success. Challenge yourself, work hard and surprise yourself by discovering talents you never knew you had, and. That could also be the key to your resiliency and it have a happy work-life balance. Very important in building resilience during tough times. You are never alone. That's another thing that I want to say.

Alexa Repko:

Totally. I count that as a win in my book too. I mean. You know, like I've definitely been put on the spot to do public speaking especially, and it is not for the week. And when you get through it and you actually feel like you sounded put together and smart and confident in all the things, it's definitely a, a personal victory.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Awesome. Uh, Caroline, how about you? What, what are some good parts from your planning career so far?

Caroline Crisp:

Ooh, that's a great question. So for me, uh, I think the good, I made a recent discovery, uh, that I really love grant writing, so I just really feel like it's the perfect mix of storytelling data and advocating for folks who really need it. Uh, and on another piece of that, I realized that I'm pretty money driven. So I love the challenge of securing funding to make a real impact in my good. I really wanna like. Give a piece of advice to new planners, and that would be, you know, learn what you're really good at and lean into that. So. If you're amazing at presenting, but writing isn't your thing. Focus on presenting. You know, if you're more behind the scenes, like crunching your numbers or visuals, do that. But I think the key to finding your good is amplifying your strengths and, you know, don't force yourself to do something that is, you know, one of your weaknesses. Um, and now I get to be the lead grant writer for the biggest region in our state. So. I get to do what I love and telling those stories with data and securing funding is just an absolute blast. So that's my good of my planning career. Yeah,

Alexa Repko:

that's a really good point. Caroline, I feel like, I don't know, when you're in college, you think all planning is the same, but there's so many like niche things within current planning or long range planning or transportation planning. There's so many like. Buckets that you can sort of pour your efforts into, whether it be like public engagement or public speaking, like you said, or you know, doing more behind the scenes like grant writing type work. So that's a really good point.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I think. I also think going off of what Caroline was talking about is sometimes we have expectations when we are in school of like what we think we wanna do as planners and it like completely shifts. Uh, it's very interesting, like, um, kind of what happens after school. it's kind of a different, it's a different playing field for sure.

Caroline Crisp:

Um, yeah.

Alexa Repko:

Totally.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Caroline Crisp:

Right. And like that's kind of. You know, I think when you first get out of school, a lot of people wanna make you a generalist, right? And there's nothing wrong with that. It's great to have your toes and, you know, permits and talking to the public and that sort of thing. But what I've noticed is like, if you can really shine at one thing that can, you know, really get you to the top and really, um, separate you from the pack in a way that's helpful. So.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, Casi, how about you? What are some of the good things from your planning career?

Casandra Brown:

Yeah. Uh, well, as a planner with a small jurisdiction, um, I would definitely say that I'm pressured to be a generalist. Um, but I think one of the things that's great about planning is that there's. So much diversity that you're perpetually learning new things and you don't really get bored. And if you are bored, you can pick up a new project. Uh, but I think one of like my successes and favorite aspects of planning is turning folks and, and maybe, I don't know, this probably occurs with current planners a lot as well, but as a comprehensive planner, um, because I'm working on projects that are citywide and maybe a little bit more abstract to like. People on this, like, you know, like a general citizen who doesn't think about land use all the time. Um, and because my work also touches on development code writing and publishing and interpreting that into the, what it looks like in the built environment, um, I, I get to talk to a lot of really unhappy people. Um, but one of the things that I've found success in and have really enjoyed is cultivating relationships and. You know, unintentionally those relationships have turned a few folks into advocates for planning. And so now we have people in the community who first engaged with us'cause they were upset about a project. And then through that process they learned about, you know, how, how planning really touches on every element of like their neighborhood and what they see and how they interact with the city. Um, and have since become like really big fans of planning and like send me articles about cool, innovative things they're seeing and learning about. And I, I really think that's a. Um, an interesting part of being a local planner with a small community is getting to make those connections and build community that way.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I love that. I've also found that as I, in previous planning jobs, I also was a, a small city, uh, planner, so also like had to sort of know a little bit about everything. So I was kind of a generalist. But I think the best part about working in a small community is how much of a relationship you be have with the community. Um, and you can build that. And sometimes all it is is just like. People just like to know that you're listening doesn't mean that you have to do everything right, uh, that they're asking for. But um, yeah, the listening part I think is key.

Alexa Repko:

And I find a lot of like disgruntled citizens. Like it just comes from like a misunderstanding, right? So once. I don't know. I've had it happen quite a bit where once you explain something to them in layman's terms, because planning is a sort of like high level, complicated thing, you know? Like I don't think the everyday citizen has, especially in Oregon, my gosh. Um. So, yeah, once you explain things to folks, they're like, oh, okay. Yeah.

Casandra Brown:

Um, I would agree. I also like internally joke often about how like, people in the community think that planning does everything and then absolutely nothing. And so like really trying to engage people about. Just like local government and how regulations come about and what that means, I think is really kind of fun.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

I don't remember ever knowing what a planner was growing up. Um, and I actually didn't know what a planner was until college. Um, so I like never would, I would never judge anyone for not understanding. What planning was or how it affected them. Um, but some of my favorite parts were like doing the research to help somebody figure out like, okay, your garage on your property, was it built pre, you know, the 1980 land use code, which means you would be a non-conforming. Thing. And so you could keep your garage versus get it up to permit. And it was, it was fun to do those like extra research jobs for folks and they really appreciated it. And it was kind of fun for them, I think, to learn a little bit more. Um, so like engagement with one-on-one with folks was, and has been I think some of my like good, good parts of the planning career and.

Alexa Repko:

Isn't it nice being the bearer of good news sometimes?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Casandra Brown:

Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It's few and far between, not

Casandra Brown:

crushing dreams right away.

Alexa Repko:

I love those days. I'm like, you know what? You have plenty of space on your lot to build an A DU. They're like, okay, cool.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Yeah, it is nice. Well, speaking of, um, bearer of bad news sometimes, let's talk about the bad parts. Um, there's always gonna be bad parts, I think, in any career, but I feel like planners have a very interesting, unique, sometimes bad experiences that not everyone deals with. So it's kind of fun to like commiserate with each other about it, but also just give a little dose of reality for, for folks too on what it's like being a planner. They could be professional failure failures or major challenges that we've had. How have we recovered and learned from them? I think that's kind of the, the biggest, part of those, those bad, um, areas that we have in our careers. And then, you know, how did we bounce back from any of those setbacks if we did? Caroline, let's start with you.

Caroline Crisp:

Sure. That sounds great. So one thing. That I've really learned is, you know, when you are out of grad school, you're kind of coming into that planner one role. And I got really lucky. I landed my dream job and I was like, this is the one, you know, I've been working towards this job for forever and I got it right out of grad school and I just thought I was crushing it. Um, but then once I got there I was like. The pay is not so good. The management is not so good. And I was just really devastated in a lot of ways.'cause during my entire grad school career, I was like, I wanna land this job. Like this is my dream. So I really tried to tough it out for a few uh, years, but then, you know, I'm really not one to suffer in silence. So, you know, my piece of advice would be to always have a backup plan, especially with those first jobs out of grad school. Um, I never wanted to feel stuck, and sure enough, I had this opportunity waiting in my back pocket where I currently work. So I made the move and I got 20% more pay. I got more managerial support and I got a team that really supported me and it's really day and night and, you know, walking into this new place, even though like the, the company isn't as like sexy, but you know, I really have the support that I need. And, um. It's really enjoyable. So looking back, um, I did leave what essentially was my dream job, but it was really the best decision I ever made. And like I said, sometimes it's not about the fancy company name. It's really about being at a place where you're valued, respected, and paid appropriately. So the lesson learned is really know your worth. Have a backup plan. Don't be afraid to walk away when something doesn't feel right. And, you know, always keep something in your back pocket. It's a total lifesaver.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I think that sort of goes into of like managing expectations coming out of grad school.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

We may have these ideas of what we wanna do, but uh, then we learn a lot and they shift. Or maybe they stay the same, but Yeah. Uh. Man, I, I think sometimes back to what I thought I would wanna do, you know, in grad school as a planner and what I do now is like almost totally different. Um, yeah,

Caroline Crisp:

yeah.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah. Or even focusing on like position titles versus like getting that support, like you said, Caroline, like, I think earlier on, I was more focused on working my way up from like assistant to associate to, you know, up and up and up. And it's like working with a team that you can learn from and having good management is like, I'll take that over a better job title any day. You know, like, I wanna learn, especially earlier on in your career, like, it's so nice having support and, and just. Having folks to learn from.

Caroline Crisp:

Definitely. And I will say too, like I remember my first year of grad school, I had a lot of trouble finding a paid internship because they were all going to the second years. And I was able to kind of advocate for myself into like an unpaid internship with, with the city and um, you know, using the projects I did in grad school, putting those on my LinkedIn and those. Or what helped me secure a paid internship, uh, you know, my second year. So I, I think there's a lot of like being thrifty with the projects that you're doing in grad school and more of the unpaid stuff you're doing in grad school. Advocating for a lot of that stuff can help you kind of land those internships. And then your first gig. And then your second.

Casandra Brown:

Totally. I definitely have my job because of the work that I did in graduate school, like the projects that I was able to complete. So it's definitely helpful to like. Like, will use your time. Well, and then showcase like the products that you're able to put together by yourself or with teams, um, for future employers.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Alexa, do you wanna talk about some of the bad.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah, I'll save my really bad for the ugly segment, but this is, maybe I'm feeling more positive today, but I would say this is more difficult than bad. Um, I think in school and, you know, internships and your first jobs and whatnot, in planning, they kind of teach you about working with the public is being difficult, and I feel like it doesn't really get brought up until you're facing it in the real world, like having to work with other government agencies or or other government departments that have their own codes and they maybe don't align with the code that you're working within, whether it be the development code or comprehensive plan and just how that can kind of prove. Difficult. You know, I've had that come up before and it's just, um, interesting to navigate. So maybe not totally bad, but just something I guess I didn't really know about until I faced it myself. But yeah, definitely can be difficult having to, I don't know, kind of make two different codes, jive and how that affects certain projects.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, I can understand that. Alexa, I just was doing that with a city we're working with and there was so much back and forth where, you know, we were both trying to find a third right answer to how to get this maintenance project complete and

Alexa Repko:

mm-hmm.

Caroline Crisp:

I think like, yeah, just trying to find a third right answer can really help. Kind of keep it like upbeat and positive, but like when you're in the throes of, so of a code written 15 years ago that it's just like right going against you in every way. You're just like, who wrote this? Like, come on.

Alexa Repko:

Or it's like our code says six foot sidewalks, but engineering's code says eight feet. And we're like, what do we do?

Caroline Crisp:

I guess seven.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah.

Casandra Brown:

We still use, use tables from 1985.

Alexa Repko:

Wow.

Casandra Brown:

I guess. We have to be really creative sometimes.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah. Or even like, I don't know, you send notices to other agencies and all of a sudden you're hearing from a random irrigation district about like some random water. Right. And you're like, wait a minute, what do I do with this?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. I think sometimes the bad things are just sort of like unexpected parts of the planning realm that you're like. You weren't really expecting, or it's different than what you're expecting? Yeah, I mean, I think planning school notoriously like, you know, they know that in planning school it is very theory based. And so a lot of times when you get out into the real world, it's kind of a shock to the system, uh, because not everyone thinks that way. All of these ideas, like, we're gonna make everything.

Alexa Repko:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

This. Perfect way possible. And it's like, Ooh, not reality sometimes.

Alexa Repko:

Right. They don't tell you that you have to work in a building department that like. Only think in numbers and you're like, wait a minute, but what if we had this cool aesthetic? And they're like, what?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Vanitha Murthy:

Yeah. And nobody talks about failures, right? When you are in grad school, nobody tells you, things can go wrong. You are, you are only told that, you gotta do this project, you're gonna get a grade, and then, then you end up, um, in real life it's looks a lot different. It could be difference between, you know. Uh, getting a grant, not getting a grant. And so, yeah, and you cannot go back and change the moment. That's something I discovered that, you know, you can share your stuff outside of places where you work. You know, build your networks and support groups outside and make sure you connect with them. So when you have these kind of failures, um, you can fall back on that support system. And also how. Uh, I decided to advocate for people I know. I knew the traditional planning systems weren't taking care of my needs, so I decided to start advocating for people, uh, who needed a different voice in planning and, uh, started to advocate for building spaces where they can share their experiences.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah, I think that's important. With public engagement, especially, you know, like, do you have a translator? Do you have someone that can sign? Do you have, you know, like to, to just be able to bring different groups of folks to the table because I mean, they are living within the community just as much as anybody else, and we need to make the planning process more accessible to everybody. Because that's how you make a vibrant community.

Casandra Brown:

I agree. But I, I mean, to that end, uh, one thing that we, we struggle with down here is, um, being able to continuously rationalize, setting aside funds for those resources, like in person translators to open houses when we have, you know, a handful of open houses a year, and maybe the translator was only used once.

Alexa Repko:

But Well, because eventually it'll encourage more people to come.

Casandra Brown:

Yeah, totally.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, that's so true. One thing, um, that's a really good point, Casi, and one thing that I've been trying to do more of is, you know, you notice on your public involvement that the folks that are showing up there might be overrepresentation of white folks via the demographic data, overrepresentation, uh, of income, that sort of thing. And what I've noticed is when we take the demographic data of who's filling out the survey. And we compare it to the demographic data of who lives in the area. And we can say, oh, there's less representation of, say, like the Latino population, or there's less representation of women showing up. Sometimes I can write into my contracts. Let's have an interested parties meeting with those folks, you know, separately.

Alexa Repko:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline Crisp:

And in that way, we're able to have kind of a. A smaller group, but it's more targeted outreach. I feel like, uh, that's something that I've done a bit in my past contracts. It's been really helpful. But it's tricky in what you're saying about, uh, about the money is so, so true and so accurate.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think to like all of your points is it has to be thought about from the beginning or else it's, it's not gonna be when it's not gonna be good. Because then you're last minute scrambling to try and do something and two, uh, you might run out of funding for it. Quite frankly, the money thing comes up a ton in community engagement. Um, which is why it's just needs to be like an overarching goal, I think. And I think planners are really good about bringing that perspective from the beginning and everything because in terms of like, I know we've kind of been like. A little bit, uh, mean on grad school, but like, I do think that they create really great advocates. Um, and we have a like solid knowledge and background behind our advocacy, right? Um, to be able to say like, no, we need to have community engagement from the beginning and need, we need to be having these focus groups, right? Um, and then you can kind of set this as like the base standard. You know, going forward.

Caroline Crisp:

That's so true. And, uh, it's, it's really the role of, you know, graduate students and advocates to push the needle forward, to push our agencies towards more equitable futures. And, you know, having graduate students or advocates as interns are so, so valuable for agencies and it's, it's when we don't have that kind of pushing the needle forward where we get really stuck.

Vanitha Murthy:

Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I've discovered is like, how do you build a culture of public engagement, right? It starts from grad school. And so, uh, I've seen this in other organizations where talk about transportation safety as a culture. And so they are starting this new initiative where, um, people talk about safety as a culture. And so they started with grad school, undergraduate school, So I think it's really important.

Casandra Brown:

I've heard of a lot of communities, or not maybe a lot, but some communities, um, kinda approaching community engagement from a totally different perspective. Um, I think that everybody relate that A lot of the times it feels really project specific, um, or plan specific. And one thing that I've talked to a few cities about is how they. Create like these civic interest groups that have ongoing participation in projects and meet, you know, regularly with the city. So maybe it's not like a formal body, but maybe it's somebody who goes through a program to learn about the city and like how initiatives work and, and how government functions. Um, and then you try to keep them engaged. And so as opposed to reaching out to somebody for a project. Um, and starting from the beginning and trying to explain what land use is and how it ma like why it matters and how it can impact their property or surrounding properties. You have a body of people who already know what land use is and how it works, and they can provide like comments that are maybe more informed and they can also help educate their own communities. And so it's really creating kind of, to your point, Benita, that like that community of engagement, um, I think it's really interesting.

Vanitha Murthy:

Yeah. Maybe we. We are onto something here. Building a culture, land use slash public involvement right from grad school and make grad school more practical. Within the planning field that planners are conveners. Right. I, I hear this so often

Casandra Brown:

Yeah. I also think it's interesting, like I, I know that we're talking about graduate school specifically, sort of right now, but I like to take the Jane Jacobs approach and like remember that everybody's a planner. You, they just don't know it yet. Right? Like when they walk down the sidewalk and they're like, damn, I think that this like tree root is making it trip hazard. Like that's them engaging with their community and touches on planning.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

So let's transition a little bit to similar but also different. Um, we'll talk about some of the ugly parts of the planning. I think we've sort of touched on it a little bit and when we talked about the bad in our conversation there, but. Let's focus a little bit on some of the ugly parts of, of the planning, planning work, but we'll keep it with a positive lens, right? And, you know, we'll keep it PG 13, don't worry. Um, but, uh, you know, maybe there's like contentious, a story about a contentious public meeting or policy dispute, political conflict that is not unknown to the planning world. Um, insights of how we handle those tough decisions and those conflicts. And then sort of how did we navigate them in. In those challenges in our, in our personal and professional lives. Um,'cause sometimes it does intertwine. I do think you, you earn yourself a very thick skin, when you become a planner. But, uh, um, okay. Well let's start with maybe some of our, our ugly, uh, stories here. And, um, Casi, do you wanna get us started?

Casandra Brown:

Um, yeah. Well, so. As somebody living in a pretty small community, I can say that like there isn't much divide between the personal and professional. Um, you know, you see the people that you work with, you see the people that come into the counter pretty often. Um, for me, I think some of what I would have to consider the ugly is, um, how current politics kind of leach into the planning world. Um, and again, sometimes in a small community when rhetoric is extreme, um, people can assign some of the values that they don't align with to bodies and people that are different than them. And so as a young woman, um, working in a planning department on policies that affect things that impact their lives, um, sometimes those comments or, or, uh, disagreements can become personal. Um, and so that's been really hard to kind of navigate, I can say that have working for a team, um, that you can talk to and get support from has been really helpful. And then also just remembering to have perspective. Um, not everybody feels that way. And so if, if anybody listening to this ends up going into planning in a smaller town or a part of the world that might be a little more red, um. I would just encourage folks to meet people who are maybe like-minded to them and can support them through the work because it's, it's hard to remember that not everybody hates you sometimes. Yeah. So that can be really helpful.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. And I, I also think like, don't be afraid to work in places where things might be different too. Um. Totally. I, I, I think that is absolutely necessary to, you know, create diversity and thought and, and everything, um, is always a, a benefit for communities. So, um, while it may sometimes be a little bit more challenging, sometimes it can be a little bit more rewarding too.

Casandra Brown:

Yeah. And if nothing, it's really an opportunity to think about like your intention. For being a planner and then to build coalitions because even people who don't agree with you, like right, like we all want the same things. We wanna have financial security, we wanna have a comfortable place to live, we wanna be able to go for a walk with our dog and feel safe. And like those things are pretty universal. So there's a lot of ways to, to, or opportunities to find olive branches maybe.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Alexa, let's, do you have any, um, ugly stories that you know, but a little positive bent to it towards the end? I dunno. Um, go for it.

Alexa Repko:

Um, yeah, I guess to stay on making things personal. Um, I. Worked on a subdivision. Um, this is already a couple years ago, and the developer was not easy to work with and, you know, prominent in the community, so that adds a layer as well. Um, and just sort of created lots that were, you know, going to be too small for the product they wanted to build. And, you know, I tried to make that clear to them. And then when it came time to build on those subdivided lots, they wanted a variance for all of'em. And as my fellow current planners know, with a variance, it needs to be something that isn't self-imposed. It's not a self-imposed hardship. And that very much was. Um, so long story short, this person went and spoke to my boss who. You know, I had kept in the loop all along, um, but kind of inadvertently witnessed my own roast. Um, so that was fun. I think that's, that's the ugly side of things, right, is when they become personal. You know, it's like this is the code. I am just an enforcer of the code. Um, I didn't write it myself. Um, and then just getting personally attacked or. Kind of just doing your job, you know, it's like, what the heck? And it, it definitely, you know, especially as a young woman in a professional field like imposter syndrome kicks in and you're like, well, did I do a bad job? Did I do something wrong? And it's like, no, I didn't. Yeah. And I guess the, the happy ending to that is my boss, let me go home early.'cause it was obviously upsetting and, and just having like supportive management like we were talking about earlier is really game changing.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially when, you know, things make it contentious and you know that they have your back. That makes all the difference in the world. Um, in jobs that I've had in the past.

Casandra Brown:

I think also having a sense of humor. Like I, I think a lot of planners are able to take those experiences and then make like internal jokes or, you know, like soften it. Yeah. Which is really helpful.

Alexa Repko:

Yeah. I think usually I could do that, but this was becoming, I. A lot more vicious than that. It was like, well, we're going to go talk to the a PA about her license and this, this and that. You know? Oh yeah. It was becoming like, yeah, it was like very personal attack. Um, yeah. So that wasn't fun.'cause usually I, I would like to think I can have a good. I can, you know, have a good sense of humor about it, but sometimes it's a little too close to home and that's, you know, it's, I, I feel like public service is my, is my purpose in this life. Um, but yeah, sometimes being in a very public facing job can feel kind of icky, you know?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Caroline, why don't you go ahead and talk about maybe some of the ugly parts from your planning career so far.

Caroline Crisp:

Sure. Yeah. So I'm gonna go ahead and just share a quick story. So for my ugly, I was in this big deal meeting with a politician and they said something that really just hit me, right, like dagger to the heart. Now I didn't Ugly cry. Cry right there in front of everyone. No, I saved that for the bathroom and I did this whole like, I'm fine face while power walking to my safety zone. And let me tell you, uh, that bathroom cry was Oscar worthy. The full work silent SOB staring at the ceiling I was. Giving myself life advice, splashing water on my face. There was a whole dramatic movie montage, and I pulled myself together, gave myself a little pep talk. I was like, all right, Caroline, it's not personal. Put your professional hat on. This is not, this is politics, not therapy. You can't take it personal. You've got this. And thankfully my manager. It was an absolute gem. They were super understanding and reminded me that I can handle these things, I can do them virtually if I need to, but you can always go and find your space and cry it out under the stress of fluorescent lighting. So, you know, to Casi's point, I think that you do have to have a sense of humor about it, but. You know, to Alexa's point, when those hits become personal, it can be really tricky to work through. So that moment really taught me two things. Politicians sometimes can really know how to press those emotional buttons, and sometimes crying in the bathroom is just part of the gig, and that's okay. But. That moment was once out of my like five, seven year career. So those things just happen. But that's my ugly, my ugly cry.

Alexa Repko:

It's okay to cry. I have a print up in my office at City Hall that says it's okay to cry.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

I love that. Feel like we're gonna scare people away from becoming planners, just crying and personal attacks all the time. But no, I think you're right, Caroline. This is like a few, few and far between, hopefully. Um, yeah, in your, and you know, in our experience, um, if not, then I think maybe you should move on from somewhere. Um, but yeah, uh, it is like, and I always feel like, you know, when you could have a hundred great comments and phone calls, but it's always the one bad. Or ugly phone call is the one that you're gonna remember. It's just kind of like, I think human instinct to remember that. So.

Casandra Brown:

Right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Well, let's, uh, let's end on a good note because that's what we wanna do. We wanna sandwich it with the, the, the good, the bad, the ugly, and then the great. So, um, I think. In terms of how we remember maybe some of the bad parts of our careers, I think we also remember some of the funniest parts of our careers and that. Happens a lot, at least I've found happens a lot in planning. Is there always is something sort of silly or funny that happens. Um, not on a regular basis, but you're gonna have a few and I think you're hopefully would have more than maybe some of the bad or the ugly. But we thought it would be nice to end on, on a more fun note, um, that we can all, you know, talk about our. Our funniest parts of, of our planning careers. Um, you know, unexpected things that have happened or, absurd moments, funnier interactions, that sort of thing. Um, so let's go ahead and, uh, start with Alexa.

Alexa Repko:

Um, this is something I had a good sense of humor about, and I think anyone would have a hard time not having a good sense of humor about. Um, when I, so I'm from the East coast and one of my first jobs out of college was in rural Vermont. And, um, this one gentleman wanted to expand his, like, non-conforming industrial business. And, you know, we had kept saying, well, no, you can't do that. Like, you're in the wrong zone, or whatever it may be. I, I might be misremembering details at this point, but in response to that, I. He erected this enormous, it was like five foot tall, middle finger on like a 20 foot pole, and it was covered in lights, um, and it was to send a message to us. But because of an art. Um, provision that we had in the code at the time, it did comply with that, so we couldn't ask him to remove it. So it ended up making like national headlines, which is hilarious. Um, and I just thought it was a, I'm like, well, you could figure out how to follow that code, but not this code. You know, it's like, I dunno. People are funny and creative and that was, that was a really funny moment.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

That is fun. It's almost like, uh. You know, creating lemonade out of lemons a little bit. Uh, yeah, that's probably cathartic for him too. Well, um, if we, if we find the article, we should definitely add it as like a show notes. Um, Caroline, what about you? What are some funny parts of your planning career?

Caroline Crisp:

Okay, so I'm gonna share one story about when I was interviewing for my current position. So when they asked me, what's one interesting thing about you? During my final interview, I think this was like the second or third interview, I didn't hesitate and I held up Miss Piggy, my senior chunky Chihuahua into the camera, like Simba from The Lion King. And it was all pig, nothing but belly, tongue and vibes, and she totally sealed the deal for me looking like a whole snack and just radiating confidence. I. And in that moment I knew that Miss Piggy had my back. So that's now why Miss Piggy wears a fancy collar because out of a hot 250 applicants, I think that she was a huge reason why I got the job. The feedback I received from the interviewers was, you know what? We just wanted someone we knew that we could work well with. So Miss Piggy really sealed the deal with that. I think I just showed up. That's my funny, um, you know, be yourself. You know, there's, there's a time and a place of course, like with planning, you're very public facing. But I also think it's super important to find those little moments where you can kind of let your personality out and be personable. And that can go a long way with kind of relationship building. So

Alexa Repko:

I agree. I think that like, we definitely have to keep it professional for the most part, but like. Yeah, we're not robots, you know, and we need to build comradery with our coworkers, even if we are working for the government and I only wanna work for dog friendly places. You know.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Funny, well, my funny story maybe related to dogs is we did allow dogs and quickly that policy got taken away when some of them kept pooping in the director's office. So. Um, Casi, what about you?

Casandra Brown:

Yeah, well, you know, again, as a planner there are so many moments I would have to point to, like public hearings as a place where there can unintentionally be a lot of like humor. Um, and then of course the, the planning counter. I think my first week on the job I had a gentleman come in and he wanted to know how he could purchase his residential street to control who was parking on it. And I, it just, it tickled me then and it tickles me now. And I just wonder sometimes where he's at in life.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. I think, uh, we, we talked a lot about some of the bad and the ugly, but like I think overall in general, we really enjoy being planners. Um, which is why we're ending on, you know, on good notes. Yeah. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. Um. We wanted to make sure that our volunteers also were the main part of an episode.'cause you'll probably hear more from them, um, as we do more episodes and as you know, they, participate in, in, um, speaking on them. So, it doesn't come out of left field when you hear a new voice coming on. Yeah, it was really great to hear from everyone. I think it's nice to kind of, you know. Chat as planners together about what, what it's like and, commiserate on the, the ugly stories, but also understand that, um, I think we all have very similar things and so we can kind of rely on each other. I think it's always good for us to, to talk things through sometimes. So, yeah, this was great. Uh, so we would love to hear from other folks on. They're good, they're bad, they're ugly. And especially they're funny, uh, if they're in the planning world or you know, any sort of ally professions for sure. you can email us at better planners@gmail.com and we may share your stories on future episodes. And of course, you can be as anonymous as you want, so do not worry about, uh. Putting your name in there, or at least let us know if you wanna be anonymous. Um, but yeah, so thank you so much for listening and um, we will next time. Thanks. Can you all hear me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. My internet also dropped.

Alexa Repko:

We should all just cry. Like the whole podcast should just be us crying. How about that?

Caroline Crisp:

Could you add that at the end?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, absolutely. I, I was thinking the same thing, Caroline. I was like, oh, this, that's gonna be great for it then.