Better Planners Podcast

Community Led Grocery Store in Tulsa - How Planners Got Involved

• Mary Heberling-Creighton, Casandra Brown, Gary Hamer

Share episode

Today's episode is a great one! We interviewed Gary Hamer, the current Director for Strategic Planning at Partner Tulsa, but his previous role with the City of Tulsa led to the implementation of a locally owned, full service grocery store in an underserved area of Tulsa, Oklahoma. In this episode we cover how Gary, as a planner, was able to use federal funds to assist in building a community led grocery store, lessons learned and the importance of community engagement and community leaders, as well as the impact of local businesses to the economics and livability of a city or neighborhood.  

Learn more about the Oasis Grocery store:

Want to be a part of the podcast? Send in an email!
The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?

To share your experiences, email betterplannerspodcast@gmail.com
Your message might end up in one of the upcoming podcast episodes. You can be as anonymous or as identifiable as you want.

Where to find us:
Website: https://oregon.planning.org/community/betterplannerspodcast/
Instagram: @betterplanners

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You are listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton. And I'm Casi. You can find us on Instagram at Better Planners. Planners is plural on the webpage for the Oregon a PA chapter, and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms. You can also get in touch with us by sending an email to Better Planners podcast@gmail.com. And if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support us on cofi at kofi.com/better planners. That's k fi.com/better planners. All right. We have a really interesting episode for you all today. It is not Oregon focused, but it is interesting nonetheless. Um, we're gonna be talking to a planner who helped pave the way for a publicly funded slash incentivized grocery store in a neighborhood of Tulsa, Oklahoma. You also heard earlier that we have Casi joining us today. She was the main researcher on the episode and also gave us the idea for this episode and found our interviewee. So we're happy to have her for the introduction here. I think overall it was a really interesting conversation we had with. Our interviewee. We sort of talked about the use of federal funds and how they were promoted to do community led effort to gain more economic viability in a community where the money actually stays in the community, which was kind of a big conversation of the topic that we had. Yeah. So Casi, why don't you go into a little bit of why you wanted this topic to be an episode.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. Um, well, I think I would start with just asking you, Mary, about what your experience has been with accessing groceries throughout your life, and if there's ever been a period where you've lived somewhere where you've struggled to find, like, um, transportation to a grocery store, or struggled to find time in your day to go to the grocery store or then did go to a grocery store and then couldn't like, find anything that you actually wanted to eat.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Ooh, all great questions. I am a city slicker, so I've only ever lived in a city, which I guess that doesn't preclude me from not having good access to grocery stores, but I would say that I had pretty good options with like a variety of cost prices, if that makes sense. So for all of the Pacific Northwest folks. Probably know the grocery store, WinCo, which is a, I think it's like a cooperatively owned grocery store if I'm right. But it, it is like consistently has one of the lower grocery store prices. Um, and I probably lived like less than a five minute drive from there. So that was like our consistent grocery store that we went to. Um, and then within like less than probably half a mile, there was another grocery store. And then maybe another mile or two was another grocery store. So I sort of lived in a great, uh, option. They all were like different price points and like different types of food options. So one was like a natural, like organic grocery store and one was like your typical corporate grocery store. And so, uh, yeah, I was very fortunate in that I lived very easily and could access a wide variety of food options growing up.

Casi Brown:

Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

What about you?

Casi Brown:

Well, I have lived for many parts of my life without a car. Um, I've also lived predominantly in metro areas. So I'm from the Seattle metro area. I grew up in a town called Auburn. Growing up we had a grocery store. It was maybe a mile away, but when you have to walk back and forth,'cause there's not any transportation service, that mile really sucks. Um, and then I would say more. Recently as an adult I was living in Tacoma, Washington and didn't have a car, and it was really hard to get to the grocery store. Um, again, it was only like maybe three miles away, but I had to rely on the bus. Sometimes it didn't show up on time. Getting groceries on a bus when it's crowded is really uncomfortable and so I, I have experienced firsthand some of the challenges of finding fresh. Food in my neighborhoods. Um, so, so how we have food systems has always been really interesting to me, especially like how we market food and then how we price that food based on what neighborhood it shows up in. Um, I've always been super interested in that. And then of course, kind of the more, um, grassroots trends I would call them of like organic options or airloom options mm-hmm. That have historically been grown in people's backyards, but now are gaining traction. And so something that you might like. Get for your neighbor or trade with your neighbor now shows up in a grocery and it's almost inaccessible'cause it's so expensive.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Casi Brown:

Um, so anyway, I think it was in 2023, maybe 2022. I saw this article in the a PA magazine, the American Planning Association Magazine, if you're not familiar with that. Um, and it was actually an interview about this very grocery store in Tulsa.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown:

Um, and it totally piqued my interest, right? Because something that we always talk about or hear about a lot as planners is the issue of food deserts. And then how do we fix it, right? Like, we don't build grocery stores. We don't manage grocery stores, right? Like, how do we get them in our communities? And so it was really cool to hear about how they actually did that, right? Like they had this fake in insight and they created this. Community interest, and then they created a grocery store. And not only that, but they were able to subsidize the cost of some of those groceries for folks who might not be able to afford them otherwise.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown:

Because something that I'm sure you guys will talk about in the interview is how when you have those smaller, non-chain groceries, it's really hard to have competitive pricing.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right?

Casi Brown:

Yeah. So then when I attended the A PA National Conference. In 2023, I saw that Gary, our interviewee, was giving a, a talk on this very topic and I showed up and then talked to Sarah off afterwards.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown:

And it was like, Hey, do you wanna be part of this obscure organ podcast? So that's how that all came around.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, the conversation is so fascinating because it is something that I had never heard of a city doing before. Where they're not technically running. It's not like a publicly owned or run grocery store, but it was heavily funded and incentivized by the city to be a community led grocery store. There's a lot of like talk about economics in our conversation and how, you know, sometimes we wanna try and like bring different companies to a city or an area for a variety of different reasons and some of the pros and cons of that. Especially when you think about like the typical corporate grocery store model and how that can affect a neighborhood or a community and. Talking about the ability for the city to actually wanna bring in economic opportunity that will stay in the community. That was like a big thing that they wanted to focus on. And yeah, it was just something that I'd never even really thought about or heard before. And it's a very interesting topic for sure.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. And I do wonder to some extent, like the grocery stores we experience it is really new.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm.

Casi Brown:

That's not how people have traditionally accessed food. Right, like you had vendors in the streets, you had vendors on the sidewalks. It was based in your, your garden. You would share with your neighbors or trade with your neighbors. Um, you did have grocery stores, but they were like on a much smaller scale. I mean, maybe, maybe this example from Tulsa, Oklahoma is sort of a peak into the future of like bringing food back to community and asking community what they want and then what that should look like, and then to some degree, challenging these. Major chains that do to some degree set pricing.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown:

Which then makes it harder to have this resilient food network.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Yeah. So it is interesting too because, you know, it's like the city has to sort of be like, we can never have control over, you know, and we have a zone, it's zoned for mixed use or whatever, but like we have no control over. Uh, what type of like business will go in there? You know, I've had, you know, c community members ask like, okay, we want it sewn this way, but we don't want this and this and this kind of business here. And I would always have to tell them, uh, unfortunately we can't restrict it quite like that. Although people are very clever with the way that they put zoning codes together where you're like, Hmm, I see what you did here.

Casi Brown:

Uhhuh.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Um,

Casi Brown:

it's an art form.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, it's a, it is a really fascinating conversation and hopefully you all enjoy it. And I think without further ado, let's get into the conversation. Welcome Gary to the podcast. It's nice having you here.

Gary Hamer:

Well, thank you Mary. Glad to be here. I am currently the director of strategic Planning for Partner Tulsa, and so in my previous role with the City of Tulsa, I led the implementation of a full service grocery store and, uh, an underserved part of our city. Uh, most people refer to the area as North Tulsa, uh, predominantly, um, historically black, uh, underserved community. And so, uh, here today to talk to you about my previous work with the city of Tulsa and the community development block grant space, and talk about this, uh, grocery store that was developed, uh, almost now, five years ago.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I think Casi brought up that she got this idea because you had presented at an a PA national conference on this topic, and so we thought this would be a great podcast episode as well.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah. Um, so I had written an article for the A PA Planners Magazine, and then after that I, uh, also kind of based on that article presented talking about the, the case as a case study and lessons learned at, uh, national Planning Conference, uh, last, uh, almost a year ago now. And so, yeah. Uh, and then Casi attended that and. Thought it was a good example of how communities around the country are trying to address food deserts and underserved communities. There, there were a lot of players involved. Um, so we just had, we were really just a partner in the development of the, of the grocery store. They're really in partnership with a group. We'll talk about the Tulsa Economic Development Corporation, who was a community development financial institution, and they are a partner that we and the city of Tulsa partnered with on a lot of other work in, in the community. So yeah, kind of

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

great.

Gary Hamer:

Here we are.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. I'll look for that article and I make sure that we, uh, put it in the show notes as well. So folks wanna read that after the episode. They can as well. Well, let's start a little bit about kind of the backstory of how this this started. And I know that there were obviously multiple players. You're not always gonna have everything. I guess I would, I would love to hear how you all got involved and. Why in particular did the community want to do this sort of grocery store model.'Cause it's definitely not something that happens in most places. It's kind of, um, I don't know if it's the first, but it's definitely not common for sure. But I think it's something that planners and community development advocates could learn. Something very interesting about it, and I think very relevant topic nowadays of grocery stores and food security. Keeping businesses local to your community and how that brings about sort of other effects. Um, so yeah, let's, let's start from the beginning, sort of how you all got involved.

Gary Hamer:

I could, yeah. I completely agree with all that. Uh, well, um, so this area had historically been an un, you know, underserved part of the community. And so the city had been involved in a number of, uh, initiatives over a long period of time, starting in the late nineties, uh, developing a, a redevelopment plan for the area. They established a tip. And so the city had already begun trying to incentivize, uh, the redevelopment of the area. And so in the late nineties, they acqui began acquiring property, uh, through urban renewal authority. Um, picking up, uh, land at, at this particular inter intersection, which is, uh, pine in Peoria, which is a kind of a well known, most people in Tulsa wouldn't know where that's at. Uh, anyway, so the city began acquiring property around this corner to facilitate redevelopment, and so they established a tiff. We did some, the city did some, uh, roadway improvements, some pedestrian improvements there with the idea of fostering the redevelopment of the area. And so after it was acquired, traditional economic development, old school economic development, you know, the, the idea is always that you're trying to attract some big anchor. That

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

Within, then, you know, you, you, you track the anchor and the anchor goes, you know, get the anchor in place and then, and then ancillary development happens around it. And so, um, in terms of the tif, you're trying to generate, uh, you're trying to attract big tax generators to generate sales tax revenues. So, so then you can capture that revenue and then plow it back into the tiff to other improvements in the area. So to continue that sort of revitalization. Anyway, so after the city acquired this, the, and put the tiff in place. They did attract a, a grocery store in Albertsons that opened for two years in 2007 and then closed in, in 2009. And so, you know, there was a, a brief time when the, when yeah, these residents actually had, uh, access to groceries. Right. And so then it closed. And so then there was this whole thing of like, what do we do? You know, how do we, there was all these schemes of like how to prop this thing up and you have this humongous box. Like most communities, you know, you have this. Massive box that goes vacant and becomes an eyesore. When these boxes go out of business, it just becomes a, uh, a massive black eye right, so to speak. So anyway, so there were various schemes to try to, um, prop this grocery store up. There was a, a grocery store that operated there for a little while. The city actually gave them a CDBG loan, and so he operated for a number of years, not very successfully. The community did not support it. Because the, the food offerings and weren't really tailored to what they wanted. Uh, and so the community never really bought into it. Anyway, uh, in 2014, I took over as manager of the City of Tulsa's Grants administration department. And at that time, the Grants administration division basically manages all of the HUD funds. So, you know, the, the home, the home program, the CDBG program, and the other emergency solutions grants, and then the Hopper program around. You know, those are programs are for housing individuals. Uh, anyway. And so the big part of that program is the administration of the CDBG program. And so I, I came in as manager and at the same time, the city needed to do what's called a consolidated plan. So if people know anything about, um, HUD entitlement funds, uh, you have to have a, a what's called a consolidated plan, which is basically just a master plan on how to, how you're going to spend those dollars. And what the, uh, needs of the community are.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And so in this development of this plan, you know, going out and we, we went out into the community and of course one of the things that always comes up, uh, and this was in, uh, 2014, always what comes up is all of those. Uh, needs that you have community development, um, needs, socioeconomic issues around health, around food access, around jobs, around all of those kind of socioeconomic, uh, housing, of course code enforcement, all of those kinds of things. And so one of the big things obviously that, that kept coming up in all those conversations was. Uh, we need, we need fresh food. We need access to fresh food. And so, mm-hmm. One of the, uh, key priorities that we put into the consolidated plan was that, um, and this, the consolidated plan generally is a five year plan. So this plan would've run from 2014 to 2019. And so one of the key goals that we put into that plan was that we wanted to facilitate the operation or construction of, or operation of, or the opening of. Three grocery stores in the underserved areas, uh, of the, of the city. And so, uh, that would be, uh, north Tulsa, west Tulsa, and East Tulsa. So that was, that kind of laid the foundation for us focusing on this. And so right after the adoption of this plan, the kind of grocery store that was operating in that space, it was kind of, uh, limping along. Hmm. They decided that they were gonna close the store, and so, uh, because they had received a CDBG grant, uh, actually it was actually a loan and it was in repayment. They decided that they wanted to just pay off the loan. And so, uh, the original loan was more than 1.5 million. Um, but that was what the, the remaining principal balance on that loan was 1.5 million. And so before he could close it and do whatever he was gonna do with the property. He had to repay that. And so that loan then came back to us. And so again, kind of as the consolidated plan being the base, uh, we decided that we would, uh, we could, so the way CDBG works is, uh, we, we call that program income. And so when that comes back in, it has to be used in the CDBG program, but it doesn't, and it has to go towards a goal or a priority in the consolidated plan and the annual plan. But it does not specifically have to go back to whatever the use was that it came from.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

So, so in this instance, it was repaid from the of a supermarket grocery store, but it didn't necessarily have to go back towards that priority, if that makes sense. Right. So basically what we did is we said, well, it came from a grocery store where we, we need grocery stores, so we're not gonna just,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

We're gonna not, we're not gonna like, put this back in the general pool and like split it up into various initiatives that we could have, which there were plenty of other needs that we could have put it towards. So the, the decision was to put out an RFP. Specifically for, uh, a grocery store in an underserved part of the community. And so it could have been really any, any of those other parts of the city that met the qualifications, uh, for the eligibility under the CDBG program. So that would be, you know, the, um, that it had to be in a low, moderate census track and those kind of things. But anyway, so we put this RFP out, uh, for$1.5 million, uh, and the, this is where the Tulsa Economic Development Corporation came into the picture. They operate and run the city's, uh, small business loan program that's CDBG funded. And so they have a, um, already, uh, owned some property that was funded from a CDBG loan, uh, or CDB, excuse me, CDBG grant prior to this development. Uh, so they were already, uh, at this re in this same area that the city was trying to redevelop years before they were already there operating a retail, uh, shopping center. And so anyway, so they replied to the RFP. They were the only respondent and we sort of knew that they were probably gonna be the only respondent, but, uh, it was, it was open to everybody. And so they submitted the only proposal we gave, we awarded that RFP to them. And then basically in 2017, that's when Rose Washington, who is the executive director of Tulsa Economic Development Corporation, began the process of trying to acquire the funds in the community and build a, build a sort of capital stack to, uh, fund the construction of the grocery store. Uh, so again, that was in 2017 and it really took her, uh, from 2017, uh, all the way to 2020. Uh, it was a really long, arduous process of trying to convince funders and others to participate in the store, as well as, um, working with the community to kind of. Uh, get the communities buy-in around the development of the store. Right? So it was fortunate that there was an out parcel in that retail development that they already operated, that already had water and sewer, the right, um, half the parking lot was already there, and so some of the lighting was already there. And so really having that out parcel that wasn't developed eliminated the acquisition cost.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

So there was no, so that really, you know, if you, if you take the land acquisition off the table, they already owned it. It was already platted, the zoning was already in place. And I don't know if that part of the plat was actually platted, they may have had to plat that portion of it, but, um, the site plan was already, you know, right. Already approved. And they may have had to pla that portion. But that leverage, that's one of the things I could, and stressing lessons learned and, and advocating when I'm talking to planners is that when you're looking at these potential development sites or redevelopment sites, if, you know, leveraging those, all of the collective investments and looking at the future of like maybe this parcel or this piece of it is a future development site, but locating, co-locating those investments, uh, really

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

Um, and reinvesting in areas where you've already invested funds not only federal funds, but local funds. And to leverage that investment because you know, there was already infrastructure, there was already previous investments, so there's already foot traffic, there's already a traffic control. Probably all of those kind of things that you would talk about in development anyway, so that was a fortunate part of this, um, whole story is that. Uh, you know, the previous investments that have been made, the groundwork that have been laid on the redevelopment, even though the, you know, the original grocery store failed, ultimately ended up producing a more sustainable model. It's a, this grocery store is smaller than the Albertsons, and as you and many other planners are discovering as these large boxes many times, because they're have a whole different corporate model of running the store, the, the square footage is too big for the community. The operating costs are too high, all of that kind of stuff. So I think this really was an opportunity then to showcase like a smaller footprint. This is a 16,500 square foot store.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And so that footprint, that lower operating costs, having that land already having the, in a lot of the infrastructure already in place, being part of a redevelopment site that already had a significant amount of development already on it, I think it really showcases a model that could be more recordable. In a,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

Kind of an underserved community. But anyway, so setting that background of that kind of backdrop of that, you know, she rose with TEDC then began trying, like I talk, like I mentioned, talking to the community, talking to funders. And so there was a lot of back and forth, you know, there are many times where she'll tell you that she thought it was gonna fail, where she, she was gonna throw in the towel and say, you know, forget it. I can't, you know, this isn't gonna happen. And then they got the city counselor involved and then they began talking to, uh, private foundations about, particularly around health equity.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And the access of fresh food and how it would make a difference, um, to the health outcomes of the community. And, and, and also, you know, the long-term health outcomes and impact on the healthcare system. I think they really sold that to, uh, private funders. So eventually she was able to assemble that stack and so she had$2 million of own money. She had, uh, our tDCS money. They were fortunate that during the pandemic. Late in that 2020 timeframe, they were administering some COVID relief programs that they were generating significant dollars from their, uh, staff costs and their, um, overhead, they actually generated some income from that. So anyway, so they had$2 million that she put in that had a million and a half from the city. They got a million dollars from, uh, uh, the TIFF that I'd mentioned. And then they got a million dollars from private foundation and ended up putting together a funding stack of 5.5 million to build a store. And when you look at it

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

I'm impressed with what they were able to do with 5.5 million, uh, and that the site, the quality of the construction, the, uh, the site layout, and they did a lot, I think, and did a really good job. Was 5.15 million. So.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Did they have to build a new building or were they using the existing old Albertsons building?

Gary Hamer:

So initially her plan when she got the 1.5 was that they were thinking about either acquiring or leasing it from this previous guy and maybe doing a new white box, new white boxing inside and maybe, you know, shrink the footprint of it. But I think that they figured out that that wasn't doable. And then they said, Hey, we got this other land and so that's when they just, they built a brand new. From the ground up. It's, it is a brand new building.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Okay.

Gary Hamer:

And so the, the store then, you know, after they, they started construction in later 2020, and then it opened in May of 2021. So.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I mean, 5.5 million still sounds like a lot, but for a brand new building that is not very much.

Gary Hamer:

No, no. I, I agree. Uh, I agree. But like I said, a lot of those costs that you would typically have, um, you know, a lot of, like I said, the, they own the property, so they didn't have the

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right,

Gary Hamer:

they didn't have to pay for the property. A lot of the infrastructure, the water and sewer was already on site, so they may have had to do some minimal water main and sanitary sewer extension, but um, most of it was already there. And so a lot of the storm water infrastructure was already there.'cause of the shops on Peoria, the, the adjacent, what I would call the, the sister development site, that, that, that it's adjacent. So.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And so the other businesses that were around were also being funded through the small business loan program?

Gary Hamer:

No, the shops on Peoria was funded. It was not part of the, um, the small business loan program. It was just, it, it, it was a previous CDBG grant recipient.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Okay. Okay.

Gary Hamer:

And so it was funded from, actually Ara Congress during the financial crisis authorized a number of programs to help, you know, during the financial crisis.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

A, a, the American Rescue Plan. I don't remember what the exact acronym is.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Sounds familiar.

Gary Hamer:

But, um, yeah. It's not arpa, you know, ARPAs, the most cur current was the, the current one from the, the COVID Pandemic. But during the financial crisis, I think it was, it was called Aura.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

I think, anyway, so Congress authorizes special appropriations for the CDPG program, and so those dollars then flowed out.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Okay.

Gary Hamer:

Flowed down to the cities. And so anyway, this was one of those grant recipients as part of that URA money. And this, the shopping center is, it's a a 15,000 square foot retail shopping center and has, uh, seven or eight retail businesses in it.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is. So interesting. I feel like this is a common problem in most cities and communities in America, is that anchor store that has left, and it usually was built around like the 1980s.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, a big box store with the super big parking lot, and then smaller stores nearby. Um, in one community that I used to work in, we had that exact same experience. It also happened to be in Albertsons that closed, and we just kept getting questions over and over again of like. We need a grocery store. Why isn't there a grocery store? Why can't you get a grocery store here? And the issue was the old model just didn't work because there wasn't enough density. It wouldn't have met the, you know, these, these large grocery stores, they do a lot of market research. They do a lot to know that their store will be profitable for them.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

In these large buildings, you know? Um, which have a lot of overhead cost to even just have the lights on and, and the heat and the AC going. So it took, it took years to, to try and get, and like we would reach out to various grocery stores and they would always be like, yeah, no, it's not gonna pencil out. And it kept being a question over and over again that we would get from the community because it, a grocery store I, I feel like is a huge asset to a community. Especially if it's one that is more closer in, like this particular one was, so a lot of people could get there in a short amount of time. Um, they wouldn't have had to go miles out of their way to get to another one. It's a, it's a very common problem, I think, in communities. And so this idea of, do you call it a subsidized grocery store? Kind of what, what is, what is the term of it? Because I know it's, you know, locally owned. But technically, will we call it a subsidized grocery store? How, how would we, like

Gary Hamer:

It's hard to, yeah, I agree. I don't know that I would call it because they, at some point, within a few months, it may be less than a year, their CDBG obligation will be a satisfied.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And so the obligation that they have to the CDBG program will be gone.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

And so. They will have met the criteria. So basically for listeners who may or may not be familiar with CDBG, generally there's what we call a period. It's usually five years. So they have to perform or provide the service or the activity for five years, at least five years. So once they meet that five year criteria, then for instance, if they wanted to cease doing or quit running the grocery store, for instance. They would have to then pay back the difference of whatever

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

The original obligation is to the program. So they would have to pay a portion of that money back to the CDBG program if they did not meet that five year threshold. But once you meet the five year threshold, that's the way it happened with the shops, the adjacent, uh, property next door. Once they met their obligation, then it became free and clear. And TDDC owns that now.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

Free and clear.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And so I, I, I agree. I'm not sure if you call it, it was originally subsidized, you know. And so, uh, I, I think to a degree, the development costs are benefited from the previous subsidy of the development, right? So I don't know whether you call it incentivized,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

Or because there's not an ongoing subsidy,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

Um, in terms of like money going from the city or somewhere other federal programs into the grocery store. Now, Aaron Johnson, who runs the grocery store, who owns the LLC Oasis. Fresh market, who actually is the operator of the store? He may be, I don't know. He, he may have some federal funds of some sort.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

That are going to, to, to subsidize the operations. I don't know that, but, and I know that Rose is the lease rate that she charges Oasis Fresh Market. I'm fairly certain it's below market. Right. Um, so she is not charging him in a market rate, lease rate, I don't believe. Right. I don't know. I don't know. Again, if you call that a substitute,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's, that's a good point. I think incentive is probably a better term because, you know, there's so many different benefits that happen when you, you know, we talk about small businesses all the time it's like a big deal after Black Friday we have small business Saturday, and everyone's like, oh, make sure you. You go to your small businesses as well.

Gary Hamer:

Right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And you know, there's all this like talk about how whatever you buy at a small business is probably paying for this person to then use that within the same community and all these sort of far reaching benefits beyond just, you know, buying the thing at the small business.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It does, it does more for the community. So

Gary Hamer:

Absolutely it does.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

I think. Yeah, I think incentive is probably a better term. And I'm guessing, you know, that's a great way to describe what, how Rose is doing it now is like the benefits outweigh the need for the market rate profit.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah. I mean, and, and so the, the federal funds then allow her then to, uh, offer a lower, lower than a market rate. So,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah.

Gary Hamer:

Um, you know, that original investment is definitely subsidizing the ability of her, for her to be able to, uh, lower lease rate. Or her capital and her investment is patient in that she doesn't have a specific return on her investment that she's looking to achieve. Like a cap rate or something that you would have like a, a traditional developer's looking at their cap rate, you know, what, what is their, what is their return on capital, that those kind of metrics don't have, don't have to come into the equation.'Cause she doesn't have any debt other than the CDBG obligation. So, and then once that's gone, she no longer has that sort of, uh, hanging over her. Any, any kind of

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

Recourse in terms of paying money back or anything like that,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right. Yeah. For better or for worse, right?

Gary Hamer:

Right. Well, I I think it's, you know, uh, my understanding is it's, it still continues to be very successful and very well supported.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

So I'm certain he, he's still looking at other, you know, expansion potentially, I think in, in other unserved areas of the city. So I think it's, uh, still doing, uh, well, I haven't, haven't heard otherwise, so,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah. Yeah, I know we, I think maybe Casi had provided, or maybe you provided a link of like a little news video talking about the grocery store when it opened.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And you know, all of the benefits of it being in the community. And I think we probably wanna avoid calling it a subsidized grocery store because it sort of gives the impression that like the food themselves is like at a subsidized price.

Gary Hamer:

Mm. Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

But it's not quite.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, I think the crux of this is managing community expectations and

Gary Hamer:

mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

As well as getting buy-in because they can't compete with larger corporate stores who have these higher margins to be able to sell their gallon of milk at a significantly lower price than, you know, this one grocery store.

Gary Hamer:

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

But trying to figure out how to, to talk about that with the community, I think is important when you know, other planners or other community development departments want to look at this type of model because it's not solving the cost of groceries crisis that we have at the moment, but it's definitely dealing with other issues like you mentioned. Fresh food, food deserts, health equity, access.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, as well as just like community economic support that goes back into the community versus leaving to support, um, a corporation.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I, we've talked about this in previous conversations, just, I think it's really hard for community members to understand, particularly if you come from a community where you always feel like you never have the same quality of services or, or even access to the same services that other people have within, even within a few miles, sometimes of

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

Where you live and where your community is. And so I think that there's always this, uh, rightly so. The idea of. I wanna be able to have the access to these goods that everyone else has.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Gary Hamer:

Part of that I think is, uh, really helping the community embrace their, having a cultural identity.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm.

Gary Hamer:

And them being able to embrace their cultural identity and their history and say, Hey, you know, we may not be able to have that, but we, we have a history, we have a culture, and maybe we can create something that's ours. And so. I think that's one value maybe hard for people to recognize that they can create something that that is actually theirs, that has their, uh, stamp of approval or that has their, that represents them and who they are and their culture and their history. And so I think that's a big part of it. And the other part of it is I think having what I call champions inside the community for the city to work with who are leaders in that community that can sort of facilitate those sort of conversations that other, that the residents trust, that's a liaison between the residents and the, and the city or the whoever is trying to, you know, facilitate this development. I think having that champion or that leader, uh, and having a, having a leader who then has a relationship both with the, the city or the funders and the relationship with the residents so that they can say, Hey, wait a minute, let's, let's take a step back. Think about this, think about what we want to achieve as a community. Do we want to be beholden to the whims of corporate America? That that comes in here, takes our money and ships it somewhere else, and then when they're done sucking the blood of our community or sucking the dollars out of our community,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah.

Gary Hamer:

Then when, then when it's not profitable for them anymore, then they say, oh, well, we don't have no real tie or any real, uh, commitment to you as a people.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

Then we're just gonna pack up and we're, we're moving on to the next parasitic, uh, relationship. And so,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

I think if people in the community understand, like you had already said, that when you buy local and the dollar stay local, that it's really an investment in yourself. It's an investment in your community, it's investment in your culture, and it's investment in your history. Because those people that are being employed there, and the, the business owners there live there. They spend their money there, their families are there, their kids are there, and so they are plowing their money back into the community. So those dollars keep circulating. But I think that dynamic is just so hard to explain.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Gary Hamer:

It's really difficult for community members to get it, but I think them understanding that it's kind of a parasitic relationship, you know, as soon as it's not profitable for these corporations. I'm not necessarily saying that this is like a nefarious kind of thing. It's just the nature of corporate America. Um,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

This is way, this is way corporate America works. It's, you know, uh, I, I don't think that they, uh, that they, like you had already said, so they have a specific model. They do, they do very in depth market research in terms of they know how many dollars are circulating in a community, in a specific geography, and they can isolate those dollars and they know whether they can or can't operate profitably. And when they open, they're opening because they believe they're gonna make money or at least enough to keep the lights on, like you said, and keep the air conditioning running, and to generate some decent amount of net profit above, you know, above their cost. So, like I said, I hate to try to villainize any group or, you know, but it's just, it's just that is the way, uh, corporate America works and so,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

That's just a tough lesson for the community to learn. It's really makes more sense for them to embrace their community and embrace other community members who are trying to open these businesses because in the long run, those dollars will continue to circulate and hopefully the community could prosper from that.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right. Yeah. I think it is really important to have to try to explain the complications of everything, because a person's gonna say, I'm gonna see a$2 gallon of milk. And then a$4 gallon of milk.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And they're gonna say, well, I'm, I wanna spend$2, or I can only spend$2. Right?

Gary Hamer:

Right, right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It's a constant battle and struggle to have to deal with, you know, the cheaper prices when

Gary Hamer:

Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Especially in historically disadvantaged communities that typically incomes are lower than in other areas of cities. And so it really is a very complicated way to try and talk about this. Local community. I mean, I think people can generally get the concept of like, yeah, sure. Like I spend the money with the local store and like that's to, you know, pays for them to buy their groceries, right? The conversation then gets a little bit harder when, when you have to, you know, try and help folks realize that the$2 gallon of milk is harder for your community than the$4 gallon of milk.

Gary Hamer:

I, I agree. It is.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Gary Hamer:

It is. Like I said, that scale that we're talking about, that corporate America scale is just, you know, because they can buy things so much cheaper than a small, you know, supply chain. You know that their volume, because their volume is so great that they command, they can buy from the same, you know, even if the small retailer's buying from the same wholesaler, they cannot buy at the same price because the wholesaler's gonna say, well, if you bought 10,000 units, then I can give it to you at, uh, whatever, 50 cents a unit less. But if you only buy a thousand units, then it's gonna cost you 50 cents more. So it's the whole supply chain and all of those, uh, the complicated economics of scale are just, are so hard to explain and so hard to understand that this is an interconnected network of suppliers and supply chain. And the bigger the organization, like dollar stores, or you know, any other major retailer. The bigger they get, the cheaper they can sell because they're mm-hmm. Because their scale is so massive that they can command such a volume discount that they can sell goods so much cheaper than everybody else. The bigger they get and the more stores they build, the cheaper and cheaper that they can sell goods across the country because their scale is so massive that they can, they can negotiate and buy such a volume that their costs are so, their unit costs are so much lower.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. This is also making me think a little bit of like sometimes the crux of general zoning too, where I've had discussions with community members who are like, can we restrict, in the zoning code, can we restrict particular types of stores?

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, this is just an example, you know, they're like, well, you know, that zone is for a mixed use development or, you know, some sort of business development. Or like, can you restrict seven 11 going in there? And you're like, well, no.

Gary Hamer:

I mean, so Tulsa actually tried that. They put a moratorium on that.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Oh yeah?

Gary Hamer:

And they did tailor, I think it got challenged, but they did, they tried to institute some spacing requirements.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

That there had to be so many, like depending on how many locations they had, they had to be so far apart or something. Uh, and I can't remember, but it is very difficult to institutionalize or craft that kind of policy without running a foul of

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

Either takings or either some kind of, you know, case law that it's, it is difficult to be able to, to prevent

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Gary Hamer:

Those sort those from,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah.

Gary Hamer:

From being able to open up.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.'cause I mean, I think some people do get it and you know, quite frankly these conversations happened more affluent areas because they could probably afford the nice coffee shop or the brew pub

Gary Hamer:

mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Versus, you know, McDonald's or everyday USA, every town USA kind of store. I think this just sort of emphasizes to me the importance of this funding that came out where you could use it for a particular type of use or a type of business that the city wouldn't have been able to really do that as well if it was just regular zoning, you know?

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You just sort of have to like zone it and fingers crossed that like the type of business that you want decides to go there, but this was a lot more targeted. You know, you put out the RFP for a particular type of business that you were wanting to see. And yeah, I think that just highlights probably how useful that type of funding can be for communities where you can

Gary Hamer:

mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Really make sure that businesses and stores and housing that the community has advocated for, you know, they put that in the consolidated plan, and you're able to bring that to the community.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah, I agree.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

This is just sort of making me think about all of the importance. Of this type of funding. And I know there's been a lot of discussion about federal funding currently.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

But it's good to talk about good examples of where that funding can be used and how it really is benefiting the most in need communities in the United States.

Gary Hamer:

No, I agree. And it, you know, shows that, uh, the funds aren't being wasted or right spent on some frivolous, uh, you know, whatever. Um, so. I think if you look around the country, I think you're gonna find similar, maybe not in terms of grocery stores, but I think you're gonna find that most of the dollars that are given, at least to um, most major cities, they're actually spending those dollars in the community and they're actually doing good.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right?

Gary Hamer:

And I think that they could demonstrate examples of where these things have happened. And so that's one thing about this, about at least here in Tulsa. You know, we can, we can drive whoever, uh, elected officials or others that are interested, we can take them to maybe not hundreds of sites, but probably close to a hundred different sites or, uh, areas where these dollars have been spent and they actually are benefiting the community. And so in real concrete examples, like you can touch them and see them and actually see people using them. So yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I, I just think showcasing, you know, the good parts, all of the ways the money is being used efficiently and effectively in all of these communities all over the country is, is a good idea and important. You know, with, with these federal grants too. You, I, you know, another thing that I'm thinking about as well is like, I have a friend who works in a really fast growing community. And they had a very well known large grocery store go in and they built their building and it's ginormous in less than 200 days.

Gary Hamer:

Oh my God.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Because they have the capital.

Gary Hamer:

Wow.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And you know, it's just, it's the same structure that they build in every single place.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

They know that like, okay, this is exactly what we're building. And I think it's so much harder for folks to understand that, you know, when this smaller grocery store went in, like you said, it took. What, from 2017 to 2020?

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

To get fully built. It's like they don't have that model, they don't have that like capital to just like bring as many folks in as they can to put up a really large building within less than 200 days. And so it feels a little like, you know, why aren't things going fast enough? Why is it taking so long? Again, it's like that, that difficult conversation, you know, like we were talking about in terms of pricing and prices of food and groceries, um, it's just gonna be a little bit more difficult and harder upfront, but the benefits, beyond that, are gonna be completely different.

Gary Hamer:

I think if, uh, one thing that I think is helpful is, is if, um, I think it's hard to, for community members to conceptualize what it, what, what this might look like or feel like. Because they don't have those kind, they, they can't, they don't have these kind of models in their community, so they can't see them.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

So I think

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

One of the other things I would say, we have a nonprofit that has, that actually has taken community members to other communities to show them these things and taken them to their various, like community development corporations in other parts of the country that are running successful programs or successful, uh, no matter what are, you know, it's a whole number of things, whether it's housing or retail or a jobs program. Uh, or, um, in this case other grocery stores. So I know that's kind of way outside. Most communities could not do that, but I think being able to show them demonstrable examples, even if it was having a speaker come from another community that's running, uh, a similar program and they could bring, you know, videos and say, and say, Hey, this is what we did in our community. And also that, uh, a community member that is representative of the same demographic,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

I think that they can say, Hey, you know, we did this here. And, you know, in our city and, and you can do it here and help them see what it could be. I think that's important as, as, uh, a well, and I think if people can just understand that they could create something that is, is, um, more representative of them.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And that they have ownership in and that it's theirs. And I think having those examples of other communities that have done those types of things, that the people that look like them and have similar circumstances, I think really is beneficial to. And we did this with another program. We took a group of community members to see, uh, we took them on a field trip, uh, and it really helped them conceptualize what we were trying to incentivize them to do. So,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah.

Gary Hamer:

Uh, anyway, I, I think that's a,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

yeah,

Gary Hamer:

a possible strategy for trying to educate the community on these types of projects.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, that's, that's a great reminder. In Oregon, we passed that at the state level of basically like a requirement for cities of a certain size to allow middle housing. So housing, that's, you know, duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

And obviously, you know, you got a lot of pushback from that because it's not a housing type that is seen in most dense, even dense cities in Oregon, but especially suburban cities. And so at one point when community I worked at we, we brought some planning commissioners on a tour in the more historic neighborhoods of Portland and showed them how it sort of all fit together. You know, you had a

Gary Hamer:

right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Cottage apartment. Right next to single family. You know, you could show, give them the example of what it would actually look like because you know, most people aren't planners. They're not architects, they're not engineers and they, so they don't have the tools or skills to think about like, what would this look like? And so automatically it goes into fear mode because

Gary Hamer:

I agree

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

all you, all you can think about is like worst case scenario. I think that's kind of human it is to do that.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah, it is. And I think when you tell the community that it's, it's not gonna be some major, like whatever, whatever you wanna call, whatever major grocer, for instance, you know, it's not gonna be one of these.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

I think the first thing, their only, their only, uh, model is a dollar store. That's the only thing other than a big box that they know.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Gary Hamer:

And so then their, their immediate reaction is, this is just gonna be a glorified dollar store.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Hamer:

And so that's their first reaction because that's, that's their lived experience and that's the only thing they know. And that's, that's the only thing other, uh, sort of format they've ever experienced. And so they're like, hell no. We're not gonna support just a glorified dollar store. And so,

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

right.

Gary Hamer:

It's really, you know, it's a, having that, setting that stage for that conversation, whether it's examples or, you know, bringing people in from the, from that have done these things, you know, whatever you can do to show them, like you said, whether taking'em on a field trip or to be able to, to demonstrate those successful models. I think that is probably a key, like in the beginning stages of having these conversations before, before you can really move forward and

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right.

Gary Hamer:

Is really being able to help them contextualize what it is you're talking about.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Well, and especially when you have, you know, it's, it's easy to say like, yeah, I want, I want access to local fresh food. But you know, for the average person you can say that, but then like, what does it look like being implemented? Like that's the hard part.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Is showing to them what it would actually look like being implemented. Um, and I think there's just a lot of, there just aren't very many examples to be able to like showcase to them. You know, I think sometimes they think of like the corner stores in New York City, but like New York City is incredibly dense.

Gary Hamer:

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It's just not, I'm sorry, you live in a less dense community, you can't do that.

Gary Hamer:

Nope.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Um, so yeah, it's kind of like reality setting.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah. Not likely at all.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming to the podcast, Gary. This was. I, I love talking about this'cause I think it's so interesting. This is another way for us to kind of give an example to folks of like, what could actually happen versus, you know, sitting around knowing that you have this empty big box store in your community. Here's an actual example of what another community did, and not that like every place is, is the same. And so it may not work everywhere, but at least this is something that folks can look at as an example for when they think about things in the future and, um, a plug for federal funding.

Gary Hamer:

Yeah, definitely.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

'Cause it's helpful.

Gary Hamer:

Definitely.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

It's helpful for, um, these types of things, um, to be able to support communities across the country. So, yeah,

Gary Hamer:

I agree. I agree.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Thank you so much for, for joining. And um, as I said, I will make sure that Gary's article is in the, the show notes and. Um, I know I mentioned also, a video of the Oasis Grocery Store, so we'll, we'll put that in there as well. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming.

Gary Hamer:

Well, thank you Mary and I, uh, appreciate it and, look forward to, seeing the finished product.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, absolutely.