Better Planners Podcast

Sound of Cities Part 1 - Noise Pollution

• Mary Heberling-Creighton, Casandra Brown, Caroline Crisp

Share episode

Welcome to another episode from the Better Planners Podcast brought to you by the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association. This episode is part 1 of a 2-part series on sounds of cities, both the good and the bad. In this episode we focus on the negative impacts of sounds on cities, especially around noise pollution. What is the definition of noise pollution, who is responsible for creating regulation, and why are certain sounds regulated and others not? We'll also discuss the health impacts sound has on humans and then what inventive ways are cities dealing with noise pollution. Where can planners play a role and what tools already exist out there? 

Research:

Want to be a part of the podcast? Send in an email!
The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?

To share your experiences, email betterplannerspodcast@gmail.com
Your message might end up in one of the upcoming podcast episodes. You can be as anonymous or as identifiable as you want.

Where to find us:
Website: https://oregon.planning.org/community/betterplannerspodcast/
Instagram: @betterplanners

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You are listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton.

Caroline Crisp:

And I'm Caroline Crisp.

Casi Brown:

I'm Casi Brown.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

You can find us on Instagram at Better Planners. Planners is plural on the webpage for the Oregon a PA chapter, and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms. You can also get in touch with us by sending an email to Better Planners podcast@gmail.com. And if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support us on Cofi. At kofi.com/better planners, that's kko fi.com/better planners. We have a fun episode today. It's actually gonna be a two part series, so we're gonna be talking about sound and how it relates to cities positive impacts, negative impacts. All of the fun topics that you can think of regarding sound and planning and cities. So we are going to start with our first episode, talking kind of about the potentially negative impacts, some things that planners can look to to reduce noise pollution, but also what are some really great examples of what communities are doing to help encourage. Good sound or reduced sound and how we can take that into our planning world as well. So I will have Casi start us off.

Casi Brown:

Thanks Mary. Yeah, so just start off, I wanted to ask you all, um, how you would define noise pollution and what's something you encounter in your daily life is that you wish could be less loud?

Caroline Crisp:

Sure, i'll go ahead and start. That's a great question. And when I think of noise pollution, you, I think of a lot of honking in the US We have quite a lot of honking, you know, among cars and that sort of thing. And not only do we honk to, you know, avoid a collision, but we also honk. In an aggressive way sometimes, and I always think it's interesting how other countries may not do that as much or may do it more. So, for example, you know, in Tahiti when you wanna rent a motorcycle, they tell you, do not honk at the locals, only honk at animals if they're in the road, uh, to like avoid potentially hitting a, a dog or a cat sound bathing or something. And then if there's one thing I would like to be less loud in my daily life, it would be motorcycles just like revving their engine through, uh, my intersection that just like grinds my gears so much, for lack of a better term.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Yeah. My, my cat is definitely scared of motor, motorcycle sounds. She gets nervous when she hears it. But yes, I a hundred percent also think that they're so loud. I would say, I don't know if I have a good definition for noise pollution, but I, something that I think about with noise pollution a lot of times, especially as a planner, is how we want to make our communities more walkable, but sometimes we're not addressing some of the factors that play into why somebody doesn't wanna walk somewhere, which to me, noise plays a big part in that personally. And I think for other people too, there may be a sidewalk somewhere, and technically I could walk along that street, but if it's really loud, usually there's a lot of car noise. I will not want to go on a walk. I will choose a different way to get there, even if it's more direct or less direct. I, yeah, I just feel very uncomfortable when I get over stimulated, honestly, by the cars going by. So that's something that I try and think about when I am trying to think of having more walkability in communities. Sometimes it's, it's not just the fact that the infrastructure is there, but also what else is happening around it.

Casi Brown:

Yeah, so before kind of doing the this research for this episode, I would have thought of noise pollution as kind of like a constant annoyance in the background, but not something that was necessarily super loud in front of me like some times. So for example, like, um, I probably wouldn't think of my neighbor working on their deck and like sawing as nice pollution because it's like temporary. It's contained. But like, I would definitely think of this down to the freeway in the background as as nice pollution. And for me, I am always shocked by how loud the voices are on the crosswalks. There are some locations that it's just like, it's startling how loud it is. And same with like the, the Max Line here in Portland. I recently moved here and I'm staying with a friend who lives a few blocks from it, and I can hear it in her backyard. She's like three blocks from the intersection. It's just so loud if you're standing right there. So those are things in my daily life that, um, I, I wish could be a little more muted sometimes. One of the things I found in my research is that there is a Noise control act. It was initiated in 1972. Initially, it was to address those kind of constant sources of noise pollution, like. Streets and freeways, um, airplanes, airports, that kind of thing. The office was consolidated and then defunded in 1982. Um, so technically this act is still out there, but there's just not any funding or a dedicated office to really, uh, implement those um, priorities. However, noise is regulated by the Clean Air Act, so that falls under the EPA. Um, and their focus is predominantly to look at noise sources at the federal level and then develop regulations for them. So that would include things like rail, uh, motor carriers. Low noise, mission products, construction equipment, transport equipment, that kind of thing. And they also do, uh, regulate the labeling of hearing protection devices. So like if you work in an environment where you are required to wear a hearing protection device, they do regulate those to make sure that they're adequate for whatever setting that they're being used in. So I think that provided kinda like a, a description of noise pollution that I would have thought of, right? Like those things that are kind of constant, like if you live in an airport area, you generally have to deal with some level of noise and, you know, that should be addressed at the federal level. Um, however, I also found more recent definitions that kind of just refer to noise pollution as unwanted sound or noise. Which is really far from a clear and objective standard that makes it really subjective. And so for me, I was like, well actually that opens up so many other things, right? So now, like the train down the street could be included, the crosswalk sensor could be included, the blender in my kitchen could be included. Like all of these different things could be considered noise pollution. So I think it really comes down to like the decibel level. Um, so really anything over 85 decibels is. Considered to be too loud, which was really interesting to me. And so like, what does that mean? Um, some products like vacuum cleaners are considered to have 70 decibels. So a vacuum cleaner is like just under the level of sound that would be negatively impacting your hearing. Heavy traffic can be between 80 and 89. Motorcycles are consistently too loud. They're between 90 and a hundred decibels. For example, a leaf blower, which is something that I also hate encountering on a walk um, it's between 106 and one 15. The average rock concert, um, is one 20 to 1 29. So, you know, when you, you go to a rock concert, if you forget your earplugs, oftentimes you leave and your ears are ringing and you can't really hear until the next morning. Um, so that is too loud. Um, and then of course a siren is also intended to be loud. Um, and at a distance of 100 feet, that's generally measured to be 140 decibels. So those are everyday things that, you know, should give you a concept of really like. How often we encounter noises that are too loud for what our ears are intended to encounter. So kind of in my, you know, in my research I learned about the Federal Level Noise Act, what the Clean Air Act can accomplish. But really the underfunding and the defunding of the Noise Control Office, really to the Noise Control Act of 1972, pushed those regulations. To state and local municipalities to develop and then enforce. Um, so obviously the question I had is how are we all doing that?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Good question. I, I don't know.

Casi Brown:

Oh yeah. So as a local planner, um, some things that I've encountered, of course, are place time and manner regulations. So when is your city, when are your city's quiet hours? Usually is between like seven or 8:00 AM or you know, like 10:00 PM to seven or 8:00 AM. Some municipalities and counties also have noise regulations based on that decibel measurement. So from the property line of said, use how, how loud is it measuring? Um, and then there are parameters around that. And oftentimes. Requirements to mitigate that sound for neighbors. But I would say that one challenge to those practices are that I, as a planner have never been trained as a sound engineer. So I don't really know how to measure sound. I know there are tools out there to accomplish it, but I've never done it. And I don't know many planners that take time out of their day to go stand at a property line, to wait for a noise to occur so that they can measure it to then, you know, address. A complaint in the community. So I don't really know how often places are able to enforce any of these noise standards, um, or how realistic it is to even have those in our code books if we don't know what they mean.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, that's super true. I think about time, place, manner, a lot. It's such a interesting rule that we have in the States, right? So, you know, in the US we have these time, place, manner, uh, restrictions, which is essentially, we can't. If somebody wants to drive, you know, their motorcycle down the street, like in the US we can't control that because that's a, like a freedom of speech thing. Similarly to a billboard, a lot of times you can't control what somebody is, is putting on the billboard. You can say you can only have this political billboard up during election season or you can only have, you know, this construction during um, 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM you can have it when people are sleeping. Right. So I really appreciate you bringing up that time place. Perspective. And that's one thing we do a lot of in my role is, you know, writing those permits with city and with county, uh, members, you know, so we do that a lot where we're writing permits with the city and with the county. Uh, noise ordinances is what we'll call it. But if there was a city or a county that would say, we need you to not make any noise during this construction, or to like lower the noise or to, you know, put in any kind of green infrastructure to absorb that sound. Like that would take a lot of, uh, budget and thought and you know, potentially consulting. So that's kind of why we do it that way is there'd be a lot of effort that would have to go into those more creative solutions to mitigate. Right.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. Kind of like any source of pollution. I think the question is like, what is an acceptable amount, right? Like it, it is never really zero because we all benefit from some noise pollution. Like I benefit from being able to drive my car or take the train or take the bus. And like vacuum my floor, right? So like how do we determine what that appropriate level of noise is? Which goes back to this more broad definition that a lot of academics are advocating for, which is just unwanted sound or noise. And like we all have different sensitivity levels, right? Like I hate having to hear people chew. For me, I like to wear headphones when I go places so that I don't have to encounter that. For somebody else, it's probably a very different sound that's triggering for them. And like, I don't expect people around me to not eat. Right. Like that's not an appropriate, it's noise pollution for me that I should or need to mitigate. It just is. And so I think that's like a really interesting question is like, how much do we need to actually do?

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Right. Well, and there's, you know, ac actual like mental health impacts too of, or people that maybe, um, are more sensitive to sound based on just like who they are as people and how do we plan for those folks as well.

Casi Brown:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So getting to the health impacts of sound, I thought it was really interesting actually. So there are sounds that we are all bothered by, and that can be something that we're cognizant of. Um, like even traffic, right? But if you're somebody who lives in an urban area and you're like, oh, I'm actually not bothered by the sound of traffic, even though you're not consciously acknowledging or feeling bothered by it, there are studies that show that physically you are actually unable to relax. Um, so you're kind of living in this constant state of stress. Um, your body actually kind of like it inhabits that space and so you still have those long-term negative consequences associated with constant stress and inflammation. You know, a lot of the times that is seen as cardiovascular health issues, uh, mental health issues. Increased risk for stroke. And what's interesting is that a lot of those are things that on their own you might, well, you know, like in relationship to noise pollution might not really affect most of us, but if you have any underlying health conditions, it can definitely exacerbate those effects. And so it's an interesting concept to think about, like even if you're not. Feel bothered by the sound, you're actually still being impacted by the sound and through that lens, like it becomes a much larger public health issue. I also found it really interesting to think about how like noise pollution impacts wildlife. Um, so one thing that I think we've all probably heard about is how, um, like marine traffic, so shipping containers or shipping boats. I don't really know what they're called, shipping boats. And I like fishing vessels. They all use radar and different tools that create sound, and it's making it such that some marine life forms, like whales actually have trouble communicating with their pods and navigating, um, their traditional kind of routes. I also learned that among burrs and urban areas, they often change their pitch to communicate at a level that can be heard, uh, above the kind of constant noise. And so I think that's something that people are starting to dive into and there's probably a lot of unknowns with how constant sound like marine traffic and, and urban traffic all impacts kind of that more natural world around us.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. I think another thing too, going back to the, you may not realize the unintended health consequences of noise on your body, but just the fact that predominantly more lower income. Uh, black and brown neighborhoods, people of color live closer to, uh, freeways or highways. Um, sometimes built through historically black neighborhoods that are now being systematically, uh, impacted in their health in ways that they may not realize. That just also adds onto the other kind of issues that they have, whether it's economically, socially, whatever. That is just exacerbating the the problem for folks too, and I think that that definitely needs to be acknowledged as well.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah. Mary, that's super valid. Thank you for bringing that up. In some ways, you know, if you walk on, you know, a major arterial. Or a major collector, and then you walk alongside a minor collector or a greenway, you can just tell the difference. You know, even if you walk your dog or something, like your dog's behavior will be so, so different. I think this is why I'm such a big advocate for green spaces, city parks, as well as greenways, you know, um, in Portland we have Clinton Street right next to Division Street, and that is a huge difference, um, via the sound and the bus and the honking. And, you know, having access to those minor collectors right next to those major collectors that are meant for walking, biking, strolling are so, so important for like, the health of a city.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. And just the fact that the built environment, like the green environment, like just having trees in on your street could significantly reduce the noise that you're hearing as well. Um, which historically there's also less trees in lower income areas in general. So it is, it is just this, this very interesting, um, combination of things that happen, obviously. Um, but I think also, um, in terms of like impacts for folks, it also really affects seniors that I think we don't realize, as, you know, trying to create areas where people can age in place. Areas where they can choose to live longer than having to, you know, go to an assisted living facility or something like that. As you get older, you obviously lose your hearing and as you are able to hear less it and you're in spaces where it's harder to hear other people, it actually will create more of a decline in your health. Um, and people that have hearing loss will. Could, there are studies that show that they may get dementia quicker, um, because of just not being able to, like socially interact with people. Um, I feel that way in restaurants sometimes where I'm like, I've come here to like, chat with my friends and family and I can't even hear them. Um, and I think of the impact that would feel if you were, you know, hanging out as an older person with your family and you can't hear anyone. Um, how that really does impact your ability to, to live your life. So that's like a big, a big factor I think in a, a large group of folks that could benefit from reduction in noise pollution in general.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, that's a really, really great point. Casi, can you tell us more about, uh, you know, some of these noise pollution? Their planning, architecture and landscape. I'm excited to hear about like nightlife, zoning and night ambassadors and that sort of thing.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. Well I think it's interesting that when we were all talking about kind of our personal pet peeve with sounds that we encounter, um, and like our ideas of noise pollution, that none of us were like, oh, nightlife. But that's actually a huge, like originating factor for a noise pollution. If you live next to a venue space or a sports arena, a lot of those places, you know, they have games that go past 10:00 PM Sometimes they have shows that might end at 10, but then everybody still hangs outside and it's, it can be really loud. Um, so in a lot of cities there's this new position that's kind of. It's, it's called a night ambassador in some spots. Um, it's really taken off in Europe and some of our larger cities here in the US have these positions and their role is kind of to be a liaison between the city, the community, and these business owners that have, you know, active nightlife locations. So one thing that they do is they hear about these nurse complaints and they work with business owners to mitigate those. Those issues. So they figure out how to kind of work within the parameters. Um, some cities are also creating a new zone specifically for nightlife. And so those might be areas that, you know, you don't encourage housing to be, um, or you, you know, maybe like minimal mixed use. Spaces that way, you know, you can have the vibrant nightlife and it's not impacting people who live in that location as far as traffic goes. Kind of to your point, Caroline, I'm a big fan of Earth and berms, um, and I'm always like on the I five corridor, I'm like, why is there a house that I can see from the freeway, like 50 feet away? Why are there no trees? Why are there, there were like no berms. Um, it drives me crazy and it seems like something that would be easy. I know it's not right, like that's very expensive, but there's all of these things that we can do through design. And so as a urban planner, I don't think that we would necessarily lead those designs, but we could lead those conversations. And I found some really cool examples in places where they are investing in, um, mitigating noise pollution. Uh, one example was the Brooklyn Bridge Park. Um, so they installed three sound attenuation hills. AKA berms, um, along the park. Um, they measure 20 to 30 feet high and then they cover them in vegetation. And so that's helped to absorb and then redirect the noise from the highway, um, is how this effect that they call it the sound shadow, which I think is a really great term. Um, and so the sound shadow where this berms are, it reduces noise up to 75% from pre berm sound measures. And so that was found to be a really effective way to kind of create these more quiet spaces in an urban area just to reduce that traffic sounds. Do you think it was interesting to then think about cities like Portland or Seattle, where the highway does go through that space? Um, and like what would that look like? I don't know. I. I was walking across an overpass the other day and it, it is so loud and I was like, I wonder what it would be like if they built like a concrete wall up here. Like I would feel more enclosed. I wouldn't have this view of the highway, which I don't particularly feel drawn to, but some people might. Like how would that affect the sound? And I don't know that we have enough enough research to know exactly, but I do wonder like how people in transportation are kind of thinking or rethinking about that.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. I also find it interesting too, that we have all of these regulations when regards to work and hearing, but we don't think about it in the same vein of like regulating just like existing in society. I don't know if there's a better way to talk about it, but you know, it's like, you know, they sound protection is. Like OSHA will say if you're, you know, working in a construction area, and I'm sure it's pertaining to certain decibel levels, but you have to, then you're required by OSHA to put in, oh my gosh, I can't remember the name. Those headphones, right? Yeah. Head muffs. Yeah, he muffs earmuffs head. MI don't know, earmuffs. I don't know. That's not it, but like sound protection. Right. I mean, I don't know of a city except for maybe like large ones like New York City that have actual like sound engineers that may be part of their urban planning, urban design. Areas, right? Like any of the cities I've worked in that absolutely you do not have someone like that. And so it is fascinating of just how there are areas where we are really consciously thinking about how sound affects somebody. You know, your workplace environment, but other areas where it's not really thought of much at all.

Casi Brown:

Right. And it's so interesting too because it's almost like you take, like you see the the workplace or the work environment as a community, and then everything outside of that space is more individual, right? And so it almost falls to like individual choices. Um, when we could be regulating them, maybe not at like the local level or the state level, but we could be like regulating source noise at the federal level and then we could bring practices into planning and architecture and landscape design that would mitigate things that we know to generate a lot of sound.

Caroline Crisp:

Right. Yeah, that's a great point. I think that that example that you were chatting about the night ambassadors is so interesting. So last night I was falling asleep one in the morning. I live about two blocks away from a few bars. Boom. 1:00 AM fireworks are going off, you know, and I'm like, I would love to have someone who looks like the mayor of Townsville from the Power Puff girls just out there just saying. What are you guys doing? In some ways I do love it because I'm a city girl, but in other ways I'm just like, what would that look like in practice? And like from a planning perspective, it's so interesting because you're getting into that you are outside of time, place, manner. Now you're getting more into the actual like freedom of speech, the like content, right? It's a little bit more gray and sticky than like um, infrastructure. But it's also really interesting as well, you know?

Casi Brown:

Yeah. I would also just share that like with the Night Ambassador position, which is also just such a cool job title. It's really, it seems to me more about relationship building, right? And so it's like mitigating the negative impacts of nightlife, but it's also talking to people who are, you know, business owners and entrepreneurs in nightlife and asking like how they can be supported, right? Because it's like such a crucial piece of cities. Um. That's why a lot of people come to a city is that there are things to do at night and um, like we want that to be a vibrant space for people. Uh, but we also want it to be a livable space for people. And so it's really more about like building those relationships to make it something that everybody can benefit from, which I think is super cool.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, that's a great point.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Another example of things that have happened in the past that we may not realize was used, uh, design wise to reduce noise pollution is actually Central Park in New York City. There are parts of it where you are actually like physically going down and so the street gonna be above you and you will be experiencing the park lower, which will naturally reduce. Noise and it was intentional when they designed the park, they intended that as part of it, which I find very interesting of, you know, this is not like a concept that's new. They've known about it for a while and it's, it is interesting areas that you maybe not think about have actually taken part in designing to reduce noise, um, and create a more serene environment. You know, if you're thinking of a park, you want it to be pretty. Quiet for the most part. Um, so you could hear nature, you can enjoy talking to somebody there. Uh, it is, it is really interesting kind of all of the actual physical designs that you can do to reduce noise. But you're still allowing, there's street is still there. Cars can still go by. It's not affecting that, but it is just designed a little bit differently so that you can enjoy the space with less noise.

Casi Brown:

That is such a great point, and I'm really excited to share with you a concept, if I may. Uh, yes. I stumbled upon this concept of like the soundscape approach, which is taking off predominantly in Europe and the uk. And it's very much to that point. It's, um, working with communities and walking a route, whether that be through a neighborhood or an urban core or a park, and asking community like what they, what sounds they want, either amplified or like what sounds they want to be tempered. And then they create a plan to create that soundscape. So that term was first coined by a gentleman named Michael Southworth in 1966, um, and his research focused on the sonic environment of cities. And his, he predominantly worked in Boston, but that soundscape approach has kind of now been re-envisioned. And so one example is the renovation of, and Caroline, you can probably help me with this pronunciation, renovation of the now Iner plot in Germany.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, that sounds right to me.

Casi Brown:

Okay, perfect. Got it. So, professionals and community members co-designed a soundscape experience and particularly around the concept of, uh, emphasizing bird song and other natural noises to be audible. The city of London in 2016 adopted a noise strategy. Um, and what's really interesting about this is they acknowledged that the vibrancy of city for many is iconic when you think of the sounds of cities. And so they really wanted to cultivate a space where that was emphasized, where all of the sounds were kind of there and present. So you can go to, they call it the square mile. And you can hear kind of what you would envision as like a classic city soundscape. The Welsh government, uh, at a national level, recently developed policies to help design a healthy acoustic environment. They just define that as the absence of unwanted sound in a spatial temporal context. And so going through cities and thinking about how maybe you can mitigate some sounds like the garbage truck in the morning, 10% of those, and maybe again, like accentuate some of those sounds you wanna hear. One example I learned is that like the small city, again in Germany, they wanted to emphasize the sound of the water. And so they were coming up with places along this path or this park where they could create more, uh, I don't know, maybe it was berms or sitting places where you could kind of experience that sound separate from those more urban areas. And one of the projects that is my favorite that I learned of is a mapping of quiet areas in Berlin. And so it's a citizen science app and people can walk around the city and assess different quiet areas. And so people can then jump on and kind of see like in their neighborhood, like, where can I go read a book that's gonna be nice and quiet or. Report differences or changes in, you know, how quiet it was from one day to another and kind of crowdsource that information, which I think is also like a really cool idea and could lead to more people just like being conscious, conscious of sound and how that impacts them and maybe their neighbors, and how we can design to mitigate those unwanted sounds or noises.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

I love that. I know there's also an app out there. That will, people can self-report, um, decibel levels of restaurants. Oh. Um, so you can, you can figure out where it might be more loud than others. Um, which I. I think it's great. Um, and I love this idea of people self-reporting spaces and community, not just like indoors of areas that are quiet. I think that's, that's really cool. I like that a lot.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. So do you guys have like a, like a place that you go to? That, you know, was quiet when you would just want some quiet time outside of your home.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Interesting. Well, I actually would choose my backyard because I have large mature Doug Firs kind of surrounding our backyard, and I actually live quite close to a a major intersection and I can still hear traffic. Um, it's not something that's like I don't hear ever, but I do feel like the trees naturally sort of give a little bit of a buffer and I feel like I hear more birdsong than I ever did before when I lived in a different area of the city. So I find that really interesting.

Caroline Crisp:

I love that Mary. That's. That's beautiful. I think, um, you know, in Oregon we're so blessed to have so much beautiful nature, so close to the city. So when I really want a quiet place, I honestly just want to hear like a waterfall. So I love going to the Columbia River Gorge and, you know, listening to the sound of water, to me is always really calming. And then if I want something more in my neighborhood, I'll go visit my local greenway, uh, which is Clinton Street for me. And, uh, just walk along Clinton Street and, you know, say hi to the neighbors. It's so pleasant. It's so great. And then if I want to go shopping, I'll pop over to division and do some damage and then pop over back to Clinton for some quiet, and it's just the best time. So, yeah. How about you, Casi?

Casi Brown:

Yeah. Um, well. I just moved, but previous to my move, I would say the Jacksonville Cemetery was kind of my go-to spot for quiet. It's actually a really beautiful space. It's on this hill above the town, which if anybody's been to Jacksonville, you know that the Main Street is also like the highway connecting everyone to the Applegate. It's often pretty busy, so it can be a little noisy, but this hill is elevated enough and it's covered in, um, mature oak trees and it's shady and there's a few houses, but for the most part it's just surrounded by grassland. And it was so quiet and lovely and yeah, it was like the perfect spot to go read a book.

Caroline Crisp:

It sounds like it. That's so nice. There's something so calming about cemeteries. It's like, it's probably very quiet, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I love what you were saying too, Casi, about the Berlin plan of quiet areas. I mean. And the use of a hush city. Like what a kind, like peaceful concept to do for your fellow neighbors. Like, okay, you need a moment where you wanna be in public, but you want something quiet. You know, here's an app where you can really go and experience that. There's something really cool about being in a public space, a third space, but also like in a really calm, quiet, like reflective area that allows you to think and process. It's super, super cool.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. It's also so interesting to kind of use it as a crowdsourcing app because I'm thinking about like what would it look like if a city or a county created like a quiet area plan or a soundscape plan, and how quickly would the existing conditions change? Hmm. Not even just from year to year, but like for month to month. Um, you know, like you have a traffic project on one street and suddenly traffic is diverted four blocks over, and so it seems almost like an intangible quality to plan for in so many ways.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah. Um, yeah. You'd have to have a level of flexibility to it for sure. All it takes is one leaf blower, you know? Oh

Casi Brown:

man, I know. Or one motorcycle.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah.

Caroline Crisp:

Wrong. They feel like, like input can be like, I heard one motorcycle on this one time, not quiet.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. But that would be so helpful actually, right? Because that you're like, oh, okay, well that one has one motorcycle, like in a month long stretch of recording at this, you know so.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown:

Pick and choose where you wanna go from there.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

I think one of the interesting, I don't know if it was unintended, uh, impacts of the very famous now, uh, congestion pricing in New York City is people reported it, the city actually being quieter, which I don't know if that was part of the reason. I know that New York City, like people do talk about noise pollution in New York City as being something of a, of a nuisance. But it also is like, you're like, well, I'm in New York City, right? I'm gonna hear a bunch of honking. Like, I remember when I visited and I came back, I was like, oh, it's so quiet here. Like I didn't realize how loud it was. And so just the fact of that policy change. Created that impact. That's not related to congestion pricing whatsoever, but it is actually causing some interesting impacts to the, to the city.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah. Mary, you're so right. I remember seeing that on TikTok, people would be riding the, the city bikes and recording just the peace in the city and so many less cars. So quiet people would be like sitting on their stoop talking with their neighbor having a cup of coffee. It was. Night and day different. It would've been so interesting to see if that congestion pricing went into effect, what the long-term effects on sound would've been. Yeah, that's a great point. Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. It also makes me wonder if, um, you know, I'm not in po I'm not a public health professional by any means. I do think planning and public health very much intersects quite a bit, and I would love to see us talk together more often. But I, I am curious if like noise pollution is part of like the public health psych guys. Like is that something that they're constantly studying? I, I, I don't know. I would hope so, but that would be interesting.

Casi Brown:

That would be really interesting. I feel like we all missed our opportunity to like go outside during the COVID-19 shutdowns and like measure noise from our, you know, yards or backyards or whatever compared to today.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah. Well I mean the like record lows of air pollution. Mm-hmm. We were able to, um, record that. But that is interesting. I don't know if anyone actually thought of, I'm, well, I'm not saying anyone. I'm sure people did record the difference in noise levels. Um, during that, those like peak COVID, uh, quarantine times.

Casi Brown:

Yeah. I'm gonna have to do some more research. I'm sure that somebody somewhere did that and it would be really interesting to see how it compares.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, yeah. And some sort of like study on, you know, the, the health impacts of people. Obviously it's hard to do that during a pandemic because there's lots of other things happening for health, but yeah, that is very interesting.

Casi Brown:

Yeah, it seems like there's, I mean, it's not a new field, but it seems like recently it's been, I've seen a lot more articles published, um, like within the last five years. So hopefully going forward, you know, there'll just be more and more to learn about how noise actually impacts us and how we can all mitigate it.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah, yeah. There's obviously a need for quiet spaces in this city. However, there's also a space for. You know that chaos, the subway breaks to the crosswalk beeps, and the inspiration of those city sounds in music is something that we're going to be exploring in our next episode. So tune in for that next episode.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, we don't always hate noise. Sometimes we really like it.

Caroline Crisp:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So in the next episode we're gonna get into how music has Poland sounds of urban areas, everything from uh, Billy Eilish to Mee to Dr. Dre and, uh, Kendrick Lamar's Mad City. So tune in for that one and thank you for listening.

Casi Brown:

That sounds great.

Mary Heberling-Creighton:

Yeah, I thought, I think that was good.

Casi Brown:

But also now I wanna know like what your guys' favorite sounds are like in the cityscape context. Like what sound do you hear and you're like, oh man, that's such a good sound

Caroline Crisp:

crosswalk. I love obsessed with crosswalk sounds.