How has Planning Changed since 2025

Welcome to another episodes of the Better Planners Podcast brought to you by the Oregon Chapter of the American Planning Association. This episode is a conversation between a few of the podcast team members who are professional planners in Oregon. They talk about how things have changed since the beginning of 2025 for planners and the profession. The conversation includes topics on government distrust and community engagement, as well as, what self care for planners may look like and takeaways for working as a planner in today's environment. 

The podcast team would love to hear from the listeners on topics discussed in today's episode. Write an email at betterplannerspodcast@gmail.com or leave a voice message by clicking https://www.speakpipe.com/BetterPlannersPodcast. 

APA article mentioned in the episode: 

• "Planning Right Now is Daunting and Emotionally Exhausting": https://www.planning.org/planning/2026/feb/planning-right-now-is-daunting-and-emotionally-exhausting/ 

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The team behind the upcoming Better Planners podcast wants to hear from you about the real life issues you handle as a planner. What are the honest, gritty, wicked problems you find yourself managing?

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Where to find us:
Website: https://oregon.planning.org/community/betterplannerspodcast/
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Transcript

Mary Heberling-Creighton 0:19

You are listening to the Better Planners Podcast, brought to you by the Oregon chapter of the American Planning Association. I'm Mary Heberling Creighton.

Casi Brown 0:28

And I'm Casi.

Alexa Repko 0:29

And I'm Alexa Repko.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 0:31

You can find us on Instagram at Better Planners. Planners is plural on the webpage for the Oregon a PA chapter, and on all of your favorite podcast streaming platforms. You can also get in touch with us by sending an email to Better Planners podcast@gmail.com. And if you're enjoying the podcast, you can support us on Kofi at kofi.com/better planners. That's KOI. Dot com slash Better planners. Welcome to another episode of Better Planners Podcast. This episode, if you can tell from the title of the episode, is a little bit about planners talking about their experiences in the episode. We also wanted to highlight the concerns and issues that planners are facing in Oregon and across the United States in particular. How have things changed since? January of 2025. We intend the episode to be a little bit of a frank conversation with talking about some difficulties, but we'll always try and provide solutions and opportunities as well as some takeaways for you all at the end just so we can become better planners. Our tagline, um, I think it's also important just to acknowledge that as planners, we are beholden to a code of ethics, especially if you're a ICP certified. Um, and we kind of wanna use that as kind of the overarching theme of this conversation and how do we in today's environment keep with that code of ethics that we are all behold to, especially for vulnerable groups in our communities. We'll be covering areas around community engagement and government distrust, but also we'll be talking about kind of some self-care opportunities and just. Showcasing some opportunities and how we could use some of these difficult situations to highlight some different areas of, of how we can handle those situations. So, um, I'm Cassie and Alexa today. Two of our podcast team members, we all are professional planners in the state of Oregon. So some of our conversations are gonna pertain more to Oregon than maybe other parts of the, the country. So. Take that as you will. Um, but we also, uh, have all been professional planners for several years now altogether, especially. So we just have some, some thoughts and feelings that we like to get through today. Um, I think maybe, we'll, we'll see this as kind of like a little mini therapy session maybe for you as listeners as well. So let's, um, get started then we'll start with community engagement. Um, I think as planners, that is. A pretty large portion of the work that we do. Um, community can, engagement can mean a lot of different things. Um, but I think for professional planners it happens to be quite a bit of work that we do. Um, whether it's just talking to somebody at a counter. An actual like community engagement event, um, where you're trying to get some feedback from the public. But I think it's important to talk about this because it is such a big part of our profession. Highlight maybe some of the things that we're seeing within the last year. Let's talk about how recent community engagement has looked like for each of us and, and in our roles and what we do. Um, as professional planners. Whoever wants to start, go for it.

Casi Brown 4:06

Well, I can share that in my current role. I, I actually don't interact with, um, the public face-to-face much right now. Um, in my previous role, I was at the counter often and I also was in the community much more. Um, in my current role is predominantly something that I think about in how are we. Creating documents and doing the kind of outreach that influences policy, um, to reach the groups that we know don't generally show up for public comment. Um, and for me that's meant a lot of like thinking about how people feeling comfortable engaging, um. We, in my work, we recently had an open house and it was not very well attended, but what I was really surprised to see that I hadn't encountered before were two folks live streaming the event. Um, and in the moment it was, it was something that we were all observing and we, and I, I don't think that we had encountered that before. Um, during I think that we had observed this particular person kind of take, providing their own take on. The source of materials that we're presenting and the policy ideas. Um, which then after the fact brought up some concerns about quality control, like how do we control for quality, but also that person had a lot of engagement online. So do we need to pivot to providing more sort of modernized online opportunities for engagement? Um, I don't know if any. Cities or counties that do live streaming for their events, like on Facebook or on X or Instagram. But I do wonder if that is something that people would have an easier time connecting with. Um, and if that's something that we could then utilize to provide more language interpretation services that people can kind of tune into as they're able. Um, and just kind of exploring the, the world of online tools. I think that's something that we don't really do well in government and I'm really curious to think more about that and see who, if anybody is, is engaging folks that way.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 6:21

Yeah, I, I think the pandemic forced governments to. I think more about the hybrid public, uh, meeting. And now for folks that aren't aware in the state of Oregon, it's required any public meeting. Must be hybrid now. Um, which five years ago, six years ago, I guess now I would've never, ever thought about, I don't even think I knew what Zoom was very well, uh, by that point. But yeah, it is. Um, I do feel like government tends to be the last to, uh. Follow in what is kind of the, like the very common nowadays, um, kind of communication tool.

Alexa Repko 7:06

Totally. And I think as public servants, like you need to be accessible to the public. So I I totally hear you. Like before the pandemic, I couldn't even imagine like, part of my job could be. Remote work. You know, like I thought I'd have to be in city hall every day. Everything's in person, you know, there's not an option for anything virtual. Um, but yeah, times have changed and, um, I am currently in current planning, so I guess the extent of my public engagement is public hearings or, um, meeting folks at the counter that have questions. But, um. I think the other side of that coin with, um, making things more accessible virtually. I don't know about you guys, but, um, you know, we've had people take advantage of that and just join and be like, nameless and faceless and say horrible things like a Zoom. What do, what do they call them? Like a, I don't know,

Casi Brown 8:14

trolls?

Alexa Repko 8:16

Yeah. Um. But yeah, we've had that happen quite a few times and you know, it's made the news and it's obviously horrible. Um, so yeah, I mean definitely something that we have to deal with and especially this last year or so. So it's good that we have things virtually and you know, we can offer this hybrid, you know, come in person or join online, but it also, I think, leaves room for more. Negative, maybe you could say public engagement or, um, inappropriate. So just interesting.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 8:56

Yeah. I feel like I've also noticed that in terms of like social media, people are a lot more forwardly, rude and mean than I think they would ever say to somebody's face in person. Um, so exactly I I, it sort of beholden them a little bit to do that. Um. You know, but then also part of me is like, how many of those are real human beings making those comments, right? Mm-hmm. So there's also that aspect of it too is, is like in my job, we hold some office hours for some interested parties and, um, it's all just like AI note taking bots that will join and nobody's actually joining. Um, so it's like we're trying to provide this, um. This opportunity for them to talk with us and ask questions and, um, it turns into a, uh, room full of AI bots. So

Casi Brown 9:54

that's really

Mary Heberling-Creighton 9:55

interesting. That's fun. Yeah. And it feels a little like an invasion of privacy too. A little bit of like, I don't know what you're doing with these AI note taking bots. Um,

Casi Brown 10:09

yeah, I will say that like. The live streaming event did make me uncomfortable. Like I didn't sign up to be on the internet. Um, like I signed up to be a person in a room answering questions, um, on a one-on-one or small group basis. And so like how, how, like what tools exist for quality control in that side, kind of like scenario. Um, I'm also curious like, like what does a successful, like virtual. Public event look like. Like I know that we have hybrid events and that's not something that's totally new to probably most of us, but like the concept of an open house online, that's not just a survey. Like

Mary Heberling-Creighton 10:51

mm-hmm.

Casi Brown 10:52

You know, I don't know that there's a lot of models that are really very successful or like truly engaging. Um, and again, like there's that piece of like, how do you protect against somebody or some bot making multiple repetitive comments. Um, but there's like, how can we verify that there's actually a person behind that?

Alexa Repko 11:12

Right. And then we wonder where this like misinformation or spread of, like misinformation comes from. It's like, well maybe if you attended this meeting instead of sending an AI bot, you would have a better understanding of this concept. You know, I don't know. Yeah.

Casi Brown 11:30

Yeah. I also don't know, like, I mean, back to, I think maybe one of your earlier questions is like, how are we reaching the people who aren't usually in the room? Like that piece of like mm-hmm. Equitable engagement and Yeah. Like how, how does or does not technology support those goals? Um, you know, like we know that people who are lower income, um, might have less resources. They might not be able to jump online. Like, how can we actually still make sure that they're in the room? If that's something that we're now leaning on.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 12:02

Yeah. Well, and it's, it's interesting, the like live streaming thing, I always feel like tends to be more towards the younger audience. So part of me is like, I guess that's nice'cause maybe you're trying to engage younger people, but at the same time it does feel like an invasion of privacy. Uh. But it is a public meeting. Like it's, it's, it's so gray, right? All of this stuff is very gray, which makes it a wicked problem. Uh, my planning professors would love that, but it is interesting. I also feel like there's been such a shift lately. I don't know if you'll. Follow, but like so many people are talking about like going analog, quote unquote analog this year mm-hmm. As their like word of the year. Right. There seems to be starting to become a much bigger backlash, I think with the younger generation. Like I think Gen Z is like the big, uh, driver behind this of like wanting more in-person things. Right. I feel like I've never heard it. I still get really. Like flustered, but in a good way of like an average person talking about third spaces. But like, it's becoming kind of a, the lexicon now of like young people wanting third spaces and I was like third, third spaces. Um, I don't, I don't, you know, people outside of my like circle, I've never heard them talk about that before. Right. Planners have been advocating for third space. Space. Right. Yeah. So it's, it's so interesting. Um, and, and I, I think that's been because of people talking online about like, here, let me show you on TikTok and Instagram, like my struggle with finding third, like places for me to just hang out. And then somebody's like, Hey, have you heard of Third Spaces? And now it's just like this thing, right? Which is so interesting. So like the spread of like information. Things that I would've never, five years ago thought anyone would be talking about, um, is happening. It's also on the flip side, uh, 15 minute cities is also, uh, a lexicon that's being used, but in a, uh, conspiracy theory now. Um, it has been for a couple of years. This isn't anything new. Actually, I think one of our first podcast episodes was on that. So go back and listen if you're interested. But, so it's like the spread of the information is just so quick now that it is very hard to figure out a way to combat that misinformation, especially if they don't come and talk to you about it, right? Mm-hmm. Um, or ask questions to you because if I can have like a conversation with you, then I can. Try and give you some scenarios and explanations behind what this is. Yeah, it's, it's tough.

Casi Brown 15:16

I also wonder sort of like, I mean, are we in a moment where like we're just at such a point in history where there's so much happening and so many people are really significantly impacted by it, that like, who actually cares about land use, who wants show up to the meeting? It's like, I wonder about that too, and like how do we continue to tell people like that? It's still important, you know?

Mary Heberling-Creighton 15:39

Right. Yeah. That is so true. Really, you should care about this. Like one particular zoning code update.

Casi Brown 15:49

Yeah, you should care about this, but like why, like does it impact your life right now? Like it doesn't? Um, so like, where does it actually land in the hierarchy of needs, but

Alexa Repko 15:59

Yeah. Yeah. And people don't care until it all of a sudden like directly impacts them. You know, like mm-hmm. Talk about misinformation. I get folks coming to the counter all the time being like, well, you know, my real estate agent said I could do X, Y, Z with this property. And I'm like, then I have to be the bearer of bad news, you know? And all it would've really taken is. You know, whoever's spreading the misinformation to come to us quickly first and just verify. But um, yeah, I mean, talk about using AI instead of like doing that thorough research yourself. I think sometimes that's what's happening, you know, people think all of a sudden they're an expert in a field that they're not, and then. Just kind of relay information that is half baked, you know?

Mary Heberling-Creighton 16:54

Yeah. That actually is something that I wasn't really thinking about until you just mentioned it, but. It. The term that I, or the phrase that I love is like if you know some a lot about something and you look it up on ai, it sounds like it doesn't know anything. If you don't know a lot about something and you look it up on ai, it sounds like it knows a lot. Right.

Alexa Repko 17:14

That's so true.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 17:17

I've never

Alexa Repko 17:17

thought of it that way.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 17:19

Yeah. I think AI is gonna be a very interesting conversation, especially around like public comments and things that I haven't seen yet, but I'm assuming it's gonna be coming. But just, you know, somebody being like, Hey, asking cha GBT, what does this mean? Giving them a particular information and then they're using that as their public comment. It's not really based on any sort of fact, but you know. Yeah. That's, that I'm sure is if people ha aren't experiencing it, I'm sure it's gonna be coming soon.

Alexa Repko 17:57

Well, and I know that, um, you know, we've all been talking amongst the podcast group and, um, we've also been talking about it in my office about folks not trusting the government. And I think that. This mis misinformation doesn't help. Right. Because they're like hearing one thing from one person and another thing from another person, and they're like, I don't know who or what to believe. You know? And it like, it doesn't help in the government mistrust department, even though we're just planners, you know?

Casi Brown 18:32

Yeah. Yeah, it kind of feels like the thing I encounter with my parents all the time, not to put them on the spot, but like, you, like, well my friend said this about this policy, and I'm like, well, your friend like is not educated about this thing. And I'm like, what they said and I'm gonna trust them over, you know, again, like a subject expert in the field because they heard it from a trusted source. There's somebody who like, they trust and see as a peer. Yeah, it seems kind of like that, like, you know, this AI tool is almost like appear now. It's like the ultimate source of knowledge. Whether or not it actually knows what it's talking about, the Oracle

Mary Heberling-Creighton 19:10

that's gonna be, that's gonna be a tough thing to, to have to deal through. But definitely talking with the neighbors kind of thing that's been happening for forever. Yeah. And that's always in your neighbor a thing. Yeah, my neighbor knows more than the city planner, so.

Alexa Repko 19:29

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown 19:29

Maybe they do. Maybe they do, but like, and

Mary Heberling-Creighton 19:31

they might,

Casi Brown 19:31

you know,

Mary Heberling-Creighton 19:32

that's true.

Casi Brown 19:34

Yeah. I wonder how you guys like, see kind of, um, like that interpersonal part of the distrust coming out in your roles. Like when you have somebody at the counter Alexa, like how are you experiencing that or how is that coming through to you?

Alexa Repko 19:49

Yeah. Um, you know, I think it's. Only gotten worse and it's like, I don't know, there's like levels to it, right? Like when you're first starting out and even still, you know, I'm almost a decade into this and I still have people being like, I wanna talk to your manager. I'm like, so I'm like, I'm literally citing the code. Like you're looking at it like, you know, there's no I, it is what it is. Like we're looking at it together. I'm literally. Citing it, but you know, I wanna talk to your manager. I wanna talk to X, Y, Z person. So it's like, that's a level of mistrust. And then now it's just gotten worse with folks and, and I don't blame them, you know,'cause it's, it's federally thinks have been rocky to say the least. And I don't blame them for. Taking it out on local employees because we are the accessible ones. Like they're not getting face to face with a federal or probably even state government employee. So yeah, I mean, I, I, every single counter shift I have, I'm dealing with it. And, um, I think just like staying calm and levelheaded and, and citing it, like, I think that that's a big thing that's been instilled in me. Um. Is to like cite any, you know, if you're, if you're telling somebody that X, Y, Z thing is required and just citing the code of where that comes from and not just saying, well, the city is requiring you to do this. It's like, no, the development code that we've all agreed upon and adopted is dictating that. So,

Casi Brown 21:35

yeah. Can I ask a follow up question?

Alexa Repko 21:38

Yeah.

Casi Brown 21:39

Like, obviously the federal. Level, there's a lot going on. I don't know how much, much like that really impacts our day-to-day work like it does in community engagement. But I'm wondering for you, like how kind of, um, perpetually changing policies at the state level kind of do or don't impact that trust? Like if somebody comes in to build middle housing one year and they can't do it and like six months later, like they're allowed to do it, like how you kind of support those sort of relationships through those changes.

Alexa Repko 22:12

That is such a good question. I haven't even, I mean, I obviously think about this all the time because the code is constantly changing. You know, regulations are constantly changing at the state level and cities are having to adopt it, and I'm thinking about that all the time. But I guess I've never thought of it in that light of, you know, how that could add to. Folks mistrust of government because it's like, well, I came in last week and this was the regulation, and then a week later, you know, all of a sudden it's changed. That's a really good point. And I think too, just, um, I don't know, as planners, I think we have to be really adaptable and, and willing to change and, and learn new concepts and whatnot. But I think. I mean, it's hard, right to, as soon as you get to know a code and have a good understanding and a good grasp of it, all of a sudden it's changed, and now you're having to become an expert in it and be able to explain that to somebody face to face and. I don't know. I mean, I could, I could see why somebody would, would question that if it's like, well, you don't seem to have a good understanding of it. And it's like, well, that code just changed a month ago. Like I'm, I'm trying to learn, like, bear with me. You know? Um, yeah. So that's a really interesting point.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 23:33

Yeah, that is interesting. I think it also, I mean, is obviously if we're talking about the last year, I think that is also a very similar experience to what's happening federally, just so many. Things have been like executive orders, but then people are like, no, you don't have to do it because it's not actual law. But then it's like, but uh, my funding's being cut so it must be doing something. And then, you know, like there's all of this and then there's like, well hold on'cause we have a state lawsuit happening, so you're actually fine to just keep going as is. And it really. Uh, creates a sense of just chaos, honestly, that, you know, that's a good way of putting

Alexa Repko 24:14

it.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 24:15

That may or may not be intentional. I don't know. Um, and it, it creates this like, level of just having to think on your feet. Um. When you're interacting with people that I have never had to experience in the last year, like I feel like I have learned how to do crisis communication now, which I would've never thought before. Just in that like so many unknowns and there are people that are currently receiving help and they're like, I literally thought I was gonna get this and now I'm being told by the news that I might not. What is happening? H us also at the same time being like, I don't know, so I'm gonna have to figure it out really quickly and figure out how to like calm people down. Um mm-hmm. Which again, I've never had to do as a planner before. Um, I've

Casi Brown 25:11

been thinking about that a lately, like a lot lately actually is like, um, how many of the skills that I'm working on and I wish I had, were not at all talked about or. Taught, like taught to me in graduate school, um, as a planner. At least, like a lot of it is that deescalation. Mm-hmm. And conformity of messaging, I think is a really big one. Kind of back to like the consistency and making sure that people are, are all on the same page, at least like within your own team.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 25:42

Yes.

Casi Brown 25:42

Um, and like, yeah, how to deliver difficult information and how to say that you don't know something without losing that trust in the person you're talking to. Um, those are all things that I wish that like, had maybe been. Just like a basic communications class, how do you get these soft skills on the fly with admin and or would still be really helpful.

Alexa Repko 26:03

I think I learned a lot more as a waitress and bartender with like. Crisis aversion or like deescalation than I did in planning school. No offense to my professors. But yeah, it's kind, I don't know, just like learning how to work with people and different people and in like high stress situations. Like I think that that is so vital. Especially, you know, in the last year or so.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 26:33

Yeah, in grad school, which was, gosh, like 10 years ago now. But, um. I don't think they would've ever thought like planners are gonna need how to, like, I think we sort of talked about it a little bit, but like not in the same vein as like what we're dealing with today of like deescalation needs, trauma informed communication, things that, yeah, I truly, I don't think they thought about being like, we need to teach these students. The skills here and I don't know what it's like now, um,'cause I'm not obviously currently in planning school, but I'd be curious if those things have shifted at all.

Casi Brown 27:10

Yeah, I, I reminded, I don't know if you guys remember this, like, I feel like 10, 12 years ago everybody was talking about how libraries were changing so quickly and they were shifting from being places where folks went to like get a book or do homework to providing social services to folks. Um, and how like a lot of the educational programs for librarians, like they started screening for that sort of understanding amongst the student. And I know this'cause I, at one point thought I would be a librarian and so I was applying to graduate school and the application did like ask me very clearly like how I thought about the future of library sciences and libraries as a space for people. And it kind of feels like that right now in planning. And a reevaluation of like how planners are sort of the face of government for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Like that's the first person they see and like how they interact with kind of this, um, the spaceless entity that governs their life. And so like kind of what are those skills that we don't have that we need to think about and like, do we need to think about how we're expanding our roles? So maybe connect people to different services or educate'em about how government works and kind of that bigger picture. And I don't know, but I, yeah, I'm reminded of that.

Alexa Repko 28:24

Yeah. I, I wonder, um, I don't know about the two of you, but this is something that we've been talking a lot about in my job and in my division department, just citywide in general. They're, um, we're starting this like one city initiative and we've been talking a lot about, um. Just like broadening things, right? So long range planning is doing a lot more public engagement, but um. We're talking about also having like somebody from current planning to be there to answer questions.'cause there's inevitably gonna be questions that only current planning can answer and not just at like, um, you know, long range planning open house, but let's say an engineering open house. Like just always having representatives from each division because there are always going to be questions that don't actually relate to what the event is about.

Casi Brown 29:17

I think that's a really cool model, and I've heard that term before, but I didn't quite know what it meant.

Alexa Repko 29:22

One

Casi Brown 29:23

city. And I think that that, yeah, the one city, and I, I think that makes a lot of sense because, I mean, again, people, I, we had an open house a couple weeks ago now, and it was about code amendments, but somebody showed up and they were concerned about, um, the urban growth boundary amendment that was moved forward by the city of Hillsboro. Um, and they had a lot of questions just about like how that works. Mm-hmm. And. We were able to answer those questions, but then they, you know, were interested in learning more about solar farms and how those get permitted and all of these other, you know, cascading topics that are, uh, tangentially related, but like not really what we specialize in. And so, yeah, it would be really great to have more folks present that can speak to that concern.

Alexa Repko 30:12

Totally. And I know that like we've been talking a lot about mistrust and deescalation and how things can be, um, kind of tense right now. And I know that, that, that can sound scary, like if anything, ramping up public engagement to address these things. But I feel like in a way it could help, you know, like instead of being like, oh, let me give you the email for the. General inbox for the current planning division. Like there's just somebody there that can talk to you about that. Very specific application that you're asking about. You know? And not only that, but I don't know, at least I try to do personally, and again, we've been talking about doing citywide is instead of when people come to me with a question that I can't answer, like trying to get them there, you know,'cause we have people all the time that come in that aren't even in city limits. And I'm still like, let me literally walk you outside and show, like point you to the county office or let me like get that. Contact for you. Mm-hmm. You know, like, um,'cause that builds trust. You know? It's just like, maybe I don't have the exact answer, but I'm like, willing to help you get there.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 31:24

Yeah. Again, I, I feel like people are craving the in-person community again. And if we can as the city help invigorate that a little bit, I'm kind of all for it. But at, on the flip side here is like I, speaking of the last year, I'm struggling with how to effectively mean like. Do community engagement without putting, uh, vulnerable populations at risk. Right? So like mm-hmm. There's sometimes when we are intentionally wanting to host a public event for Spanish speakers in the community, and my thought is always like, am I gonna be putting them at risk? Right. And especially in like a, a community where there is a larger population and there is more ice activity in the area. It's been known, right? Is it my job then to figure out what is, what is a better way to engage? Which I would argue yes, but also at the same time, is it, is it creating inequity by being like, well, I can't host an in-person Spanish event, but I can host an English one. It's just creating uncomfortableness of trying to. Reduce risk for everyone, but at the same time, is it then also creating inequities?

Casi Brown 32:51

Yeah. That also brings to mind, like I remember when I was in graduate school, the emphasis was always like, show up where the people are like, go to them, don't create an event and ask people to take them out of their day, like show up at the school or at work. But again, like is that wanted like, or is that drawing attention to folks who don't want that attention? Yeah, that's tricky.

Alexa Repko 33:14

Yeah, it is tricky. And I, um, yeah, I think it just goes back to this theme of like things that you maybe wouldn't think would be related to planning, but kind of indirectly are, and, and like having to kind of be somebody who wears a lot of hats and navigates a lot of things, but you kind of have to be, and I'd like to think. You know, and I don't know, maybe I'm around a bunch of other very passionate planners, but as public servants, um, I'd like to think that these are things that we're wanting to navigate. You know, it's not like, Ugh, that's another thing I have to add my plate. It's like, no, I, I wanna help, I want to figure this out. Yeah. Wicked problems.

Casi Brown 34:07

I mean, earlier we mentioned how government is slow to adapt and change.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 34:12

Mm-hmm.

Casi Brown 34:12

And so I wonder like to, to like all of these points, like are we within a system that's open to trying new things or able to try new things? Right. And I think to that end, like maybe there's like, I don't know, maybe small communities are a lot more nimble and able to experiment with some of these like issues or. Pinch points than larger jurisdictions are.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 34:35

Hmm, that's a really good point. I've always found, I've worked in a various different, like sized places of work, um, and I do feel like the smaller communities are just more nimble because they kind of have to be, they don't have the resources to. Like the most expensive thing. So it's like, we'll do what we can and if it means that it's kind of this more innovative thing,'cause it's gonna be a little bit cheaper and faster, then like, let's do it. Um, so yeah. Yeah. I think, I think I would love to hear kind of based on what we've been talking about today, like some of the opportunities that we've seen from these challenges that we've, we've are experiencing. Um, do we have. Ways of reframing or, or things that we've thought about to help us kind of get past some of these, the big challenges that we're having currently, and maybe some, some things that we can help others figure out too, if they're experiencing the same things.

Casi Brown 35:42

Uh, well, I have a lot of thoughts and curiosities. I haven't ground truth to them, so to speak. Um. But like Alexa, we were talking about, um, you know, talking to people and using tools of deescalation. And I wonder to what extent, like we could kind of refocus people's energy in a positive way. Like, oh, you don't like whatever this driveway access point. Um, like, let's get you on the transportation commission. Like, let's, let me talk to you about how to get involved to like, shape the environment and like, you know, discuss these issues at length. And I'm wondering about like how that can lead to more diverse bodies that have, you know, skin in the game around land use and different projects. Um, and then personally I just find myself thinking a lot about like, how can I invest more in local community and kind of de-emphasize or defocus in some of these larger issues that, um, indirectly impact myself and the people around me like. Um, I know this isn't necessarily a good fit for all communities or engaging all people, but, um, like the idea of a party bus, so having sort of a block party model, I don't even know what to call it, trailer, I know that like Parks and Rec usually govern them and it has like everything you need for a block party, right? So it has like chairs and tables and games and it's free of charge and people can rent it. And the only rule is that you have to like invite everybody in your neighborhood or everybody on your block. Um, and that's also been an opportunity for people with the city to come out and build relationships through those events as well. So I've been thinking about things like, along those lines myself.

Alexa Repko 37:23

Yeah, we at the city have been implementing something similar. We have like a neighborhood district trailer, um, that, you know, is full of tables, chairs, whatever they may need to have to host an event. Um. But yeah, I think I agree with you, Cassie, like sort of redirecting people, like, hey, you know, you seem really passionate about this certain thing and um, you know, maybe there's not vacancies on the planning commission, but you could join your neighborhood district, you know? Um, and'cause I'm sure there's other folks in your neighborhood that might feel similarly. Um.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 38:02

I think a theme that I keep hearing back to like what we're talking about is just like the face-to-face human connection. I feel like I'm bringing this up a lot. Um, but just no post

Alexa Repko 38:14

COVID. It's so

Mary Heberling-Creighton 38:15

real, you know? Right. I feel like we like went a pendulum switch, right. It was so immediate. Like everyone is like virtual. Do not communicate. With each other, close or nearby, at least in person. And now the pendulum is sort of swinging, uh, more towards, you know, wanting to be more in person. But I think part of that is like. It's easier to have a conversation with somebody when you're talking face to face than trying to explain yourself through writing something out. Right. Or, um, just hearing these like one-off little, like 32nd clips where there's no context provided whatsoever, so you're, um, you're not fully getting the information to something. Um, but I also think it's, it's like showing that you're a human being and that. Kind of what you were getting at Alexa of like, let me go the extra mile and quote unquote extra mile. It's really not, it's just being like a kind human being of like, oh, you would need the county here. Let me like physically show you where that is. And just like doing the follow through that maybe. They don't get everywhere else. I mean, the amount of times that I would hear somebody over the phone that would just be like, wow, I was not expecting you to like help me this much. And I was like, well, but it's my job. Of course I'm gonna do it. Um,

Alexa Repko 39:45

it's, that's so funny. I get that all the time. Yeah. Like folks being like, wow, you guys are all. So nice here. Like I wasn't expecting you to answer on the first ring, or, you know? Right. It's like, yeah, like we're real people. We're here to help you. Like, it's my job. You know, like when people are super thankful and appreciative, I'm like, this is literally what I'm like, this is my job. This is what I have to do. You know, like, yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 40:11

Yeah. But I feel like there's been, you know. A disconnect in so many other spaces of just like, um, and, and this is not like something that's just like the past year. I feel like this has been happening for the last like 15 years. We've sort of been getting, you know, it's like the call center you're calling is now like a robot and it, you're not actually talking to human person about the thing that you need to do at your bank and just all of this like. Interaction that causes frustration because you're not being able to reach the right person. You're being stopped. You're stopped by this like wall of, uh, a robot or a computer or something. It is like such a different experience for somebody to be like, oh, I could just like come here and have a 20 minute chat, and I got all of my questions answered.

Alexa Repko 40:59

Mm-hmm. No misinformation involved,

Mary Heberling-Creighton 41:04

right. Um, straight from

Alexa Repko 41:06

the source.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 41:07

Yeah. And I, I don't know, I, maybe I was being a little too, like over the top, but I would, I would thank people for like, thank you so much for asking and calling me about this

Alexa Repko 41:20

and for kind feedback, for, for positive feedback. Anytime I get like a positive public comment, I'm like, wow, my day is made.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 41:31

Mm-hmm.

Alexa Repko 41:33

Yeah. I think it's just, I know these aren't like novel ideas, right. But like, just like being kind and you'll, you know, what's the saying? You'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Mm-hmm. Or whatever. It's like you'll get more people, like, not that you're looking to get people on your side, but it, it's just like,

Casi Brown 41:59

yeah. Can I just ask like. Who's trying to catch bees? You know, though, like I never understand these, like

Alexa Repko 42:06

these old sayings terms

Casi Brown 42:07

of phrase. Yeah,

Alexa Repko 42:09

yeah.

Casi Brown 42:10

Like why would

Alexa Repko 42:11

I, but I, I think like, I don't know, in college, I definitely, I think I had just as much passion, but I was like a lot spicier in my delivery and now it's like, well. People are not going to hear me out or

Mary Heberling-Creighton 42:28

mm-hmm.

Alexa Repko 42:29

Um, give me the chance to explain this like code section. Like, let's say like, you know, opinions aside, if I'm not, like, if I don't have a kind delivery, you know, so I, and I think that reinvigorates people, and I think that's what we're getting at is like, you know, this mistrust is. Coming from a place of misinformation or misunderstanding, and I think just like in the face of this, like really ramping up public engagement and like kindness and and effort, like that's what's really gonna like reinvigorate people.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 43:08

Yeah. I love that idea of like, the effort into it. Um, I think that's just so important that yeah, it takes more effort to like bring community, like good community engagement to community, but it's gonna, like the results is tenfold gonna be better for you, in my opinion.

Alexa Repko 43:32

Mm-hmm.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 43:33

Rather than it just feeling like you checked a box and then. You know, then you get a bunch of people that are angry, uh, because they don't feel like they were heard. Right. Um,

Alexa Repko 43:43

right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 43:45

Which just, and I'd like to think reemphasizes, what they're hearing of, like, the government isn't here to help you.

Alexa Repko 43:51

Exactly, and I'd like to think we're like seeing the benefits of it here. Like we have a whole ybi group that like shows up to public hearings or has somebody, some representative from their group, um, sending in. Public comments that are in support of things, especially housing. You know, it's like if we get people educated and involved, like they're on our side and they're trusting the field experts, you know, and it's, it works well. It makes good cities.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 44:27

I also think the in-person conversation can get beyond the. Trigger phrase, if that makes sense. Um, I think like when we were talking about this before we were recording Alexa, like there are certain places where you just couldn't say the word, uh, equity where you worked before. Mm-hmm. It was a trigger word, you know, based on like what they were, had been told or what they saw or what they've. Thought they understood that meant, um, but then actually like having a, like you could have a conversation about what equity is with that person without saying the word. It's much easier to do that in person. Right. And I think that's like a big thing that I've taken in the last year of trying to get around the. Using the trigger words, but still talking about the word and what it means in a way that's actually gonna make sense to somebody, because it's not behind this immediate facade of like what they're told this word means. Right? And it creates a level of trust because you're, you're being able to explain something to them in a way that's not gonna be influenced by anything. You know, not always, but sometimes, and I would just, you know, encourage people to think about, like, almost like, how would I explain this phrase that is a trigger to somebody or a word to a 5-year-old or an 8-year-old? Because you would never say like, Hey, this isn't equitable. You would say, Hey, it's probably not. Fair to this other person because they're experiencing this and this and this. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, it forces you to have to explain it rather than use the trigger of the word. Right.

Alexa Repko 46:20

And I mean, we were just talk, so we were talking about this earlier in reference to the a PA article that was just posted. Um, and the gentleman that they were interviewing was just saying, you know. It's a bummer that we have to avoid certain words and it impedes like education and studies and, and research and all of these things. But yeah, like you're saying, if we, and I think I used to maybe think it was like patronizing to talk to people in this way, but I think, um. I don't know. I think it's interesting to reframe it and be like, no, like I care enough about my community, including this like citizen that I'm speaking to, to like take the time to explain it to them and, and I guess avoid words that have unfortunately become politicized.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 47:10

Yeah. And for reference, Alexis talking about an a recent a PA article. That came out. That's called planning right now is daunting and emotionally exhausting, which we'll put in the, the show notes as well, if you wanna take a read facts. But it's, it's

Alexa Repko 47:23

really good.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 47:23

That's totally right

Alexa Repko 47:24

there.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 47:26

Yeah. Yeah. Which is a good segue if we wanna talk about, um, like self-care for planning. I feel, I feel like it has been a wild ride for the last six years, but as a planner, but. This past year has been, you know, somebody who has worked, who works under a, a federal grant. It's been pretty, uh, anxiety inducing, let's just say that. Totally. And it's been a, a really tough last year as a planner again. Um, I know a lot of people are experiencing so much more, but. Yeah, it's, it's self-care I think is even more important than it has been for the last six years. Um, within the last year, I, I find it to be the most important right now.

Casi Brown 48:23

So I, I feel like, like the term self-care itself is, uh, used so often that this kind of lost some meaning. Mm-hmm. So, Mary, like when you say that, what does that mean to you? Like, how do, how do you engage in that practice?

Mary Heberling-Creighton 48:37

Yeah. I think it's like. Calming the nervous system because at least for me, and I think self-care is something that can mean like something different for everyone, right? Um, as like, I would consider myself a more anxious person. And so for me it's like calming my nervous system down. Um, and, uh, reducing the like over anxious like. Thoughts that run through that go to straight to like worst case scenario. Right. Because that's like what my mind will do. Um, so for me the like, self care is more about the like reframing my anxious thoughts so that I can have a more calm, nervous system than I did, you know, 20 minutes ago. Right. Um, so that's for me. But yeah, I would love to hear what, what you all kind of consider self-care.

Alexa Repko 49:29

Yeah, I think, I don't know, I feel neutral about the term self-care or terms, but um, yeah, I included this in our, in our outline.'cause it is important to me. I think that like, um, we're planners, right? Like we. Work on community development, but I think that, and this all might sound cheesy, but I think it's so important to work on like your personal community too. You know, whether that be with friends, coworkers, whatever it may be. Like not only like reinvigorating your community, but like reinvigorating yourself, right? So like self care in. This present day planning world, um, to me is like volunteering for this podcast and doing something in my field that is more creative and, and working with people that I don't work with on a daily basis and are in different aspects of planning and, and learning from them work. You know, self care for me is going to Central Oregon planner, happy hours that I help facilitate and talking to. Other planners in the area and, and not just about planning, you know, like I think that's the big thing is like, I don't know, I think combating burnout, and I feel fine about that term too, is like not only, um, talking to folks about struggles and whatnot, but also just getting to know them personally and just having friends. You know, in your field, and like, I don't know if my coworkers even listen to this, but I cannot say enough good things about every single person I work with directly in my division. Like, I, I would not be the planner I am without them. And, and I mean that and like, um, experience on, on, you know, with experience, but also just like. Being able to talk to them about struggles and like hang out with them as friends and, um. Yeah, I'm just such a proponent of like, comradery, like that is so important to me. Like I don't wanna just be coworkers. I see you every day for so long, like, I wanna be friends. Um, and I think, you know, you can do that dance and, and, and be friends and coworkers and everything kind of works out. But yeah. Sorry, long-winded response, but I think it's just like so important to. Have your own community to be able to help other, it's like that thing everyone says, like you can't love someone until you love yourself. Like you have to if you wanna build communities, like you need to have your own and like, yeah. Yeah. I can't emphasize that enough.

Casi Brown 52:25

I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, I'm still figuring out what healthcare means to me, but I will say having a dog helps, like it's, there you go. Remains to come home and, yeah. Have a fluffy. A fluffy person that's excited to see me, and then I get to go, like, explore the world with, so yeah. Yeah, that's, that's what I do right now. And I try to limit my, like, media consumption of headlines. Yes. Yeah. Smart. Yeah.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 52:52

Well, we did put in our outline, um, some takeaways for, for our listeners that you all can take, um, that we found could be useful for you, but we also would love to hear. From other planners. Of what kind of advice or takeaways or even if you're seeking advice on what's happening currently in, um, where you're working or your community. We would love to, to hear everything from anyone who chooses to. Uh, it can be as, as anonymous as you would like it to be, but we have our email, which is a Better Planners podcast@gmail.com, and then we also created a voice box. You could leave a voicemail. And just feel free to share your thoughts and feelings, but also if you're seeking any sort of advice as well. Um, we may do a follow-up episode with listeners, questions and comments. That would be kind of fun. Um, that'd, that'd

Alexa Repko 53:51

be fun.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 53:51

Yeah. So that info will be in our show notes if you feel inclined to do that. Again, you can be as anonymous as you would like. We'll never obviously promote anyone by name or anything, so you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, we, we did have some, some interesting or some good practical advice that actually was probably provided by. Everyone on our podcast team,'cause we all kind of did a little, a big brain dump, um, before we kind of created an outline for this episode. I think this was just an important topic that, that the team really wanted to talk about. So, a couple of things is. I think an overall approach is to stay factual and stay durable, right? So anchor to outcomes and documented impacts rather than kind of going into the bigger, maybe more triggering kind of phrases and, and things talk in terms of safety and access, displacement risk, travel time. Just kind of stick to those. Impacts and outcomes that are measurable, right? Another thing to remind yourself of and tips to remember is to keep your documentation clean. So as we know, everything is public and that we deal with as public employees. Um, or if you work for public or you work with public employees, everything is gonna be public. So just make sure that you're. Keeping track of like what you're putting in there that you're just conscious of, kind of what you're, you're saying and doing in them. And then the a PA has a bunch of resources for us, so you could use the A PA policy guides for professional standards. Stick to those. Don't stick to political statements. The A PA policy guidance will align with us as professional planners, what we need to meet in terms of equity standards Also. Super important. Be transparent without being inflammatory, right? So use terminology that's consistent with what your current agency's communication policies are. Make sure that anything that you say can be backed up by your managers and bosses. And then to Alexa's point, point, I think this was actually Alexa, putting this in here, is to bring or build your own community. So going back to creating the comradery and community for yourself. Practice what we preach for sure.

Alexa Repko 56:19

I think this is planning, right? It is like questioning everything, but also like eventually being like, okay, we need to be productive and come up with a solution or else it's a wicked problem. Right.

Mary Heberling-Creighton 56:35

We love those wicked problems over here. That's.