The Three Spaces of Communication: The Physical Space, The Space of the Senses, and the Virtual Space.
How close should you sit or stand to someone? We explore the subtle art of Proxemics and its role in building trust. We explore cross-cultural variations and The Vertical Space that shapes our classrooms and boardrooms.
The Space of the Senses looks at all the personal senses, from your co-worker's strong-smelling office lunch to the volume levels required to be heard and to connect.
And then we look at the Virtual Space and how we can easily feel that space being invaded online.
Once we understand both these tangible and intangible shared spaces we can learn to build our human connection.
We recorded this episode in the studio of our great friend Carlos Santana in Puerta Vallarta, Mexico. He has such a great energy and it was a pleasure to record in his studio once again. Thanks Carlos! https://prosantana.com.mx/
Join Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen for another fun episode of this podcast.
The Three Spaces of Communication: The Physical Space, The Space of the Senses, and the Virtual Space.
How close should you sit or stand to someone? We explore the subtle art of Proxemics and its role in building trust. We explore cross-cultural variations and The Vertical Space that shapes our classrooms and boardrooms.
The Space of the Senses looks at all the personal senses, from your co-worker's strong-smelling office lunch to the volume levels required to be heard and to connect.
And then we look at the Virtual Space and how we can easily feel that space being invaded online.
Once we understand both these tangible and intangible shared spaces we can learn to build our human connection.
We recorded this episode in the studio of our great friend Carlos Santana in Puerta Vallarta, Mexico. He has such a great energy and it was a pleasure to record in his studio once again. Thanks Carlos! https://prosantana.com.mx/
Join Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen for another fun episode of this podcast.
Hello, it's Jan Hansen here and I'm with Robincomode.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:We really want to talk about space and, in particular, three spaces of communication that I know, robin, you've talked a lot about with your clients.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing about communication we've talked about this on other podcasts is we want to connect with other people and we have to be aware of the three spaces of communication. And the three spaces, I think, are these there's the physical space, yeah, the space of the senses, and then there's the virtual space. Those three things.
Speaker 1:Those three things. So we're really talking about non-verbal communication.
Speaker 2:The non-verbal communications, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really interested in this, actually because I'm sitting opposite you now and we're at a little bit of a distance than we normally would sit and chat Like, let's say, across a table.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're a little bit further away, so I'll ask you a question how far should you sit from somebody when you're having a normal, say, a business conversation? How far away should you sit?
Speaker 1:I don't know about a meter.
Speaker 2:Well, the distance is based ultimately on the handshake. So why do we have a handshake? We have a handshake to show that we don't have a weapon. So essentially we're trying to build trust. But our arm with a handshake is not fully extended. But when you fully extend the arm most people's arms are probably about 28 inches, something like that. Yeah, Now, if you stand that distance away from somebody, you feel safe, you feel trust because they can't actually hit you. This is all subconscious.
Speaker 1:I was going to say.
Speaker 2:This is not something I never think, that really. No, I know when somebody comes closer than that, you feel in some sense they're invading that space.
Speaker 1:When you say someone okay, now we're into your first point, which is the physical space.
Speaker 2:So this is the physical space.
Speaker 1:yes, so I'm never really expecting somebody to come into my physical space if I haven't invited them. So can you just talk me through the various different physical spaces that we're talking about?
Speaker 2:Yes, there are four different physical spaces.
Speaker 1:Oh right.
Speaker 2:So there's the personal space, or the intimate space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which maybe you and I have.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe Sometimes we won't go there, we don't want to share, overshare, but so that's where you have with your partner, maybe with your family, your children, that kind of thing. So that's your personal, your intimate space. Then comes the social space. These are people you know very well. Then there's the business space, which is fairly self-explanatory, and then the public space beyond that and the public space, maybe when you're on a platform and giving a speech that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting because, of course, we often talk about public spaces, don't we? You know, in architecture and everything and how we build cities, we need a public space.
Speaker 2:And we know how to behave in a public space.
Speaker 1:That's healthy.
Speaker 2:But how well, there are social expectations around that.
Speaker 1:But we're talking about personal space to start with, and that's the one I think that everybody can relate to. I mean, literally everybody can relate to. I don't know what age, but I think it was probably as a young teenager that I'd already figured out in my culture anyway, western culture how far away I could be with somebody if they were a stranger, or if I knew them well.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this is all really. The study of Proxemics, and Proxemics started by LeMancal Hall in the early 60s and he started looking at the distances Now. He said it's about the age of 12, where we start to become aware of the distances that are socially acceptable and where we feel trust from someone else. The personal space, of course, will be much smaller than the 28 inches, because we allow people into our intimate spaces, it were, and of course this is also the horizontal space at this point. So we're just talking horizontal distance at the moment.
Speaker 1:What's the difference? Horizontal and?
Speaker 2:vertical with the other one and of course that depends on whether you're standing up and they're sitting down. There are different dynamics involved.
Speaker 1:Oh, but that would matter in education, wouldn't it? Because in education, if you get down to the child's level, you're probably more effective as a teacher than if you're standing over them.
Speaker 2:It depends on the age group and it depends on what you're trying to achieve, but generally, if you think of very young children, the teacher will often sit on the floor with them at the same level. When we get older, we're used to having a teacher standing up and in certain cultures the teacher is very much, very important and you never answer the teacher back.
Speaker 2:Discipline. It depends on the culture and the era you're brought up in, but essentially teachers generally stand because they command the attention, they command the room better when they're standing. I find, funnily enough, if I'm giving a talk and I'm standing up, I often try to sit or lean on a table or a desk or something I'm trying to say. I know I'm on the platform but actually we're just having a chat here. So I try not to stand if I can. But it depends on what I'm trying to achieve and how I'm trying to connect with them.
Speaker 1:So let's go back to this idea that we're in, let's say, the personal space. Let's just stick in with that and the personal space. Have you got some examples of where somebody has come into your personal space or you've seen somebody invade somebody else's personal space and the consequences of that?
Speaker 2:Well, it can be cultural. So I had a great friend who was a college of me and I felt that he was a great friend of mine but I felt he invaded people's space. But it was cultural. Why?
Speaker 2:He was brought up in Latin America. He felt that being very close was okay and actually he couldn't understand why people didn't like it. So he wasn't trying to invade anybody's space or go into their personal space. He just went well, I'm your friend and I want to be close and it's fine. So he was doing it. From his perception I'm just being a good friend. But the person who was receiving that often felt I think you're a little bit too close to me. So that was the cultural difference.
Speaker 1:So if there are cultural differences in this space and, by the way, I think a cultural difference that I'm very aware of is that when you meet somebody who you've never met before, I would never expect them to kiss me hello on the cheek. In some cultures that's normal. In my culture it's only when you've met the person before.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so I find that an invasion of my space. But culturally, for them it's normal and it's the way they greet people.
Speaker 2:But there is a difference between somebody coming around to your house where in a sense they've been vetted or a bit like a wedding right. You know, you know these people are your kind of people and therefore you feel safer with them. You trust them more, I suppose, in a sense, than if it's somebody you meet in a business context where actually you probably want to remain slightly formal in the business.
Speaker 1:Right, so we're getting into these four zones that you were talking about. So it must be different. In an urban environment, it must be different, isn't it? Where your space is limited naturally by the physical environment.
Speaker 2:Yes, so some cultures where the population is more dense actually will probably have. Maybe, instead of the 28 inches, they might actually have 18 inches, and everybody understands that. There are times, of course, when we're in a public space, like a lift or a train, where everybody has to pack in because you're trying to get as many people in as possible and we are breaking the 28 inch rule. We are coming into the personal space. But we understand why you're doing it. You're not doing it because it's odd. You're doing it because it's a necessity.
Speaker 1:Right, but then, Robin, do not look at that person If you are in close proximity with a stranger because you're in a packed lift elevator, sorry, you just don't look at that. That's another thing where you adjust, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. Yes, but they will come on to that later. That's the space of the senses. Oh, I see. So that's part of that.
Speaker 1:Okay, but definitely not in that environment. So, just thinking about what we've said in the last few minutes it's actually as ever. I keep learning is incredibly complicated, because what you're saying is it's not standard. It depends on your culture, it depends on the environment you're in, it depends on your personality, it depends on so many things. But basically, as human beings, we know at a young age, early teens, what feels right, what feels right we're going with what's feeling right, and if you get it wrong, then communication breaks down.
Speaker 2:You're not going to connect, are you?
Speaker 1:But that's absolutely fascinating, that us as social beings have figured this out, that there's a certain way, and you think it's a real basic instinct, is it?
Speaker 2:And if we look at the vertical now, for example, so we've said 28 inches, now 28 inches, if you're both standing, it's probably fine, or you're both sitting, it's probably about right. But if one of you is standing and one of you is sitting, you have to double that. Oh, do you? Because the fact that you're standing over somebody implies you have power over them. So you move back. So you move back.
Speaker 1:There's another angle to this which is quite interesting. Before we jump on to the other areas of the senses, and the virtual and things is sport. Okay, there's certain sports that are super physical, where you're being really physical with complete strangers, aren't you? And actually it's part of the sport. So it's another exception to what we're trying to figure out, what the rules are, but it's an exception to those rules.
Speaker 2:Well, there are rules in sport. So again to rather like chess if you think of tennis, which is a kind of physical chess you're trying to put the opponent in the position where they can't get the ball back, so you're moving them around, so you're actually trying to affect their physical space by moving them to a part of the court.
Speaker 2:You're forcing them into a space forcing them into a space where they now can't get the ball back. So you're trying to control them. But that's okay because there are rules in the game. But in life, when someone tries to control us, putting us where we want to be, it's not fun.
Speaker 1:There's social rules. Somebody might intervene on a train. If you're feeling vulnerable or you know you're feeling uncomfortable, somebody might intervene, but it has to be social rules and the social rules and there has to be a reason why. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we talked about this. 28 inches in front there's also Hall. That was saying in the 1963, I think he came out with his report with Proxemics, ideally we like two feet each side of us and two feet behind us. And I remember years ago I was in the theater. I was standing there and there was a man standing behind me. I couldn't see who this man was. It felt like it was maybe nine inches behind me, something like that, but I felt about 1000 watts of energy coming from this person. They weren't actually touching my back and I went so you just knew they were behind you.
Speaker 2:I could feel. I could feel someone behind me, about nine inches away and I thought, wow, what is that behind me? I turned around and it was an act called Richard Burton, and all of us have a certain age. They're in lane dropping.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't get to meet him, I was just having to stand next to him, so I don't know the man. I mean, I love Burton, he's one of Mike Heroes, but the energy had is extraordinary. So even though he wasn't touching me and it was nine inches behind, I could still feel his aura. And there are some people, sian, who almost take up a lot of space. We're talking about the amount of space they want, they need. You know certain personalities, not just volume wise, but they kind of demand space, don't they? And other people are quite gentle in the amount of space they need.
Speaker 1:I'm really thinking back to my days as a banker. You need a very big room to fit in a lot of bankers.
Speaker 2:So is that an ego thing, or is that the space thing, the?
Speaker 1:ego thing is a space thing is probably something to do with the fact that you're in business and you're having business meetings and there's certain formality and certain space you need across a meeting table. The most interesting thing that I learned is that if you're going to have somebody disagree with you at a meeting and you know they're going to disagree with you, sit next to them, not opposite them. Sit right next to them, because it can't look you in the eye. I know we're getting onto that, but they can't look you in the eye and if they want to disagree with you, it's really hard to disagree with somebody sitting next to you.
Speaker 2:It's much harder, isn't it? I've talked to the police a lot. If you're going to Sorry, I was going to say interrogate If you're going to question a suspect, you don't want them opposite you, which is what most TV shows. They have them opposite you much. You want to have them on the corners.
Speaker 1:Well, they'll tell you more.
Speaker 2:They'll tell you more because you're giving them some space for their eyes to look where they're not having to look at your eyes and therefore they're more likely to be honest because they feel less trapped. So I find a lot of my coaching is I do it on the corner of a table, not opposite. I don't like sitting opposite somebody. I find it a bit combative across the table.
Speaker 1:So we're talking now about eye contact and things like that. Why don't we go on to the senses? So there's other things that relate to this topic around space and communication, and it's the senses Now. Are you talking about the sort of ones that I know about Smell and taste and everything? Well, tell us more about that.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, if we go for smell, for example, if you're in an office, there are many people who will have their lunch at their desk. It's fine. You could be working at your desk and your colleague is working next to you If they come in with a very spicy, strong, smelling food. You're trying to have your lunch possibly your little sandwich that doesn't smell of anything, or you're trying to do your work. Their behaviour affects your space. It comes into your space. The smell comes into your space.
Speaker 1:And you don't think they're aware of it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think some people aren't actually aware of it. So really, I suppose what the point of this podcast is we can't stop other people doing what they want to do. What we can do is to be aware that what we're doing is always the right thing, so that we do connect with people, so we can control what we do. We can't really control what other people do, other than to point out to somebody that is not helpful, you know, so I could say to my colleague next to me I mean, I understand, you won't have your food. It is quite smelly in the office. Is there any way you could eat that in the canteen rather than in the office, because the smell stays quite a long time afterwards. You're probably not aware, so you could say it in a very nice way, but if you don't point it out, they'll always continue to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually, this reminds me there's something that I really know about you, and what I really know about you, robin, is you.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's coming now. I hope it's nice.
Speaker 1:It's your super sensitive to volume. Oh, you are your super sensitive to volume. And now you actually won't go into a very crowded room. You know, one of those sort of packed drinks parties or something. I really don't like them, you really don't like them and you won't go because you say I have to shout to be heard and I don't like.
Speaker 2:I don't like shouting. I can't hear myself, I can't hear them. It's just not a natural conversation for me. Yeah, how are you? I just don't like it, so I choose not to go. But the thing about volume is that people often get volume wrong. What we're trying to do is to have a natural tone of voice. So we're now sitting probably what 30 inches apart. I'm not using a lot of volume because you're not that far away and we're chatting. What most people do when they stand up in a business context is they get louder and they get louder, I would do that Well, most people do.
Speaker 2:They stand up because they feel they have to project, because now I'm in command, I'm now presenting, and suddenly the voice changes.
Speaker 1:I've got my slides.
Speaker 2:I need to impress my boss. Exactly All of that, but counter-intuitively. I always encourage my clients, when they stand up, to actually get a little bit quieter Not quieter than they were when they were sitting down, but quieter than they naturally want to become when they stand.
Speaker 1:Why? Because you still stayed connected.
Speaker 2:You still. Well, if you can hear me sitting down, you can hear me standing up. Yeah, I mean, the difference between standing or sitting shouldn't make any difference in my volume. But everybody gets louder. Yeah, if we want communication to work, we want to have equal status with the person we're talking to. If I stand up on a vertical space level, I'm giving myself more status, so immediately the status is not equal. If I double that by getting louder, it really isn't going to work. But if I stand and keep the same volume, bring it down a little bit, I can say, even though I'm standing, actually we're on the same level.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense. I'm going to throw a curveball now because I think you're talking a lot about control. Everything that we're talking about at the moment is about me having to control how I behave with my fellow human beings. It sounds very controlling that I have to be controlled, to be within a certain environment and I can't offend people with what I'm eating, how I'm talking, how close I am to them, and not reading this situation. If I'm travelling like I'm a tourist somewhere and I don't understand what the cultural norms are or anything like that, I'm feeling a little hemmed in, robin. I mean, where's all the expressive creativity? Where you're exuberance and maybe you get too close to somebody.
Speaker 2:You're right, all rules can be broken. Of course, that's the challenge with rules they can all be broken. But I think you shouldn't feel control. We just should be aware that we might be imposing on somebody else. And if we're imposing on somebody else's physical space or their senses whether it's the volume from the mouth or the smell or the eye contact, I mean, if you think of eye contact, I remember once having a meeting with a guy I won't say which company he was the head of HR big American company.
Speaker 2:This guy was big on eye contact Hi Robin, how you doing? And what happened was we were talking away and I thought we haven't broken eye contact now for 30 seconds, which is quite a long time for most people, but we're both professional communicators and I thought, ok, this is OK. And then I thought I wanted to sip my coffee and I didn't break eye contact because he wasn't, and I thought, ok, I need to keep eye contact so my hands were feeling along the table trying to find the coffee and I took a sip and put it down again, feeling it with the other hand.
Speaker 2:so I didn't spill the coffee and after about two minutes I thought this is ridiculous. This is just ridiculous. I thought I'm just going to let him. Is there a power game there? Well, exactly, so I thought I'm just going to let him win.
Speaker 1:So I looked away. We have this friend. He's tall, handsome lawyer, but he'd had a bad day.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know this story.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, he's in the lineup, he's in the queue and he had seven items in his basket in the queue in the supermarket.
Speaker 2:And this is the queue, where it says five items or less.
Speaker 1:Yes, he had seven.
Speaker 2:And all he kept hearing behind him was this little older lady saying I think she even said things like seven has got seven things in there, seven to not five, seven. She kept bashing him.
Speaker 1:With the basket and he said and he's such a nice man. He just turned around, he looked down at her and went wrong man, wrong day.
Speaker 2:He did it's a bit Arnold Schwarzenegger, that is it Wrong man, wrong day but he felt that his space was being invaded. Now, she felt her space was being invaded because she felt he wasn't following the rules.
Speaker 2:She felt he wasn't following the rules and therefore her space was being invaded. Because this is for people who are going to be quick. She's saying but if everybody starts bringing seven, it's not a quick lineup. But this is important to understand. I think about spaces Is that I don't like volume. For example, I said if I say to somebody, can you be quieter? Actually my desire for them to be quieter also affects their desire to be loud.
Speaker 1:Oh, we've got a good example of that. Do you remember when you were on the train and a group of young girls were playing the music?
Speaker 2:really loudly. This is the. I haven't thought about this story for years.
Speaker 1:In the quiet carriage.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this is a quiet carriage where you're not supposed to make any phone calls, no music. Everyone's there to read it and it's the quiet carriage Carriage B, actually, it is right.
Speaker 1:You're fairly older people, girl.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's people who want to read, and I happened this is years ago, when I was an actor and I happened to be playing a policeman on television in a drama series and these two teenage girls got on and I think they were just looking for a fight, really so they came on with their ghetto blaster and they went bush with the button and the volume was so loud there's a rap music, right and everyone was going, oh, this is so annoying, but nobody quite knew how to stop them. Yeah, so that sound was really invading our space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you don't like loud things, oh well, yeah, but also I thought you're doing this to be annoying.
Speaker 1:Everybody else was upset.
Speaker 2:Everyone's upset, but nobody knew what to do. And I thought, actually you are invading our space and you're doing it deliberately now. And I thought, right, I'm playing a policeman on television, so I better use the body language and the kind of behaviour Now. I was tempted to go up to them and say I'm an off-duty police officer. I really think you should turn it down.
Speaker 1:You're not allowed to do that.
Speaker 2:You're not allowed to do that because impersonating a police officer is a crime, right? So of course they didn't do that, but I used the body language and I went up to them I remember this and I said to them I said OK, ladies. I said the music is going off. Do you want to do it the easy way or the hard way? And they went well, we'll turn it off. Then they went that was a good choice, right? And I got a cheer from the carriage and they went just keep it down, just let them go. And they did go away.
Speaker 1:And this is particularly funny because in normal circumstances you would never do something- Never.
Speaker 2:But I just thought they've really stepped the line here and just because it happened to be a police officer, I went down that route.
Speaker 1:OK, I think now the final piece is this virtual space, because now, of course and I don't want to sound like an old foggy, but now of course we have a virtual self. We create it all the time. We create it on all sorts of different social media apps and overshare quite a lot. We're creating conversations and we're creating a virtual space around ourselves. So tell us more about that, because you mentioned that at the beginning. There are space issues. That's not necessarily physical, it can be virtual.
Speaker 2:now, it can be virtual and it's still non-verbal because you know there's pop-ups that come up. So you're trying to buy a pair of shoes online or something and you're choosing whatever and these pop-ups come all the time. I find those quite invasive to my space, my space is. I want a nice calm. You know I might be enjoying buying what I'm buying, but these pop-ups are designed to invade your space because they're trying to get your attention. You're trying to get your attention, so that happens a lot. And the other thing I think in terms of virtual is the people who won't leave you alone. So somebody might send you a text and say, do you want to come to this party? And you think, oh, let me think about it. And five minutes later you haven't replied.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or if there's two blue ticks on certain apps. They know you've read it and so they're expecting an reply. They know you've read it and they get.
Speaker 2:it's been five minutes. Why haven't you replied? Yeah, they think I have a life. I just don't have other things I want to be doing, but this constant back and forth.
Speaker 1:What are we saying you?
Speaker 2:should do what? Give them space. They have to think about it. Yeah, don't expect a response straight away, and part of the problem with life at the moment and everybody knows this is the fact that everyone wants an instant reply. And because everyone wants an instant reply, when you don't do that, they get upset.
Speaker 1:In younger relationships. You know, amongst the young there is now a whole new world around space to do with texting and there's often long conversations about oh well, I texted him or her yesterday and him or her haven't replied. Yes, and that's a big deal, and I remember in our day where we didn't have any of that. Not to sound like we should go back to that, I'm not saying that, but there was a certain charm, wasn't there, to receiving a phone call or a it's the same thing.
Speaker 2:I mean it's still. They haven't rung. They haven't rung. I saw them last night. They haven't rung. Yeah, it's the same thing. They speed it up now.
Speaker 1:That's the difference. It was just speed it up now.
Speaker 2:But it was the same thing they haven't written in the old days. I never. I didn't have a reply for a week, you know, and all that.
Speaker 1:Can I just say you know the real estate you were talking about, that are flashing ads at you on various websites and browsers and things like that. I used to work on a board that sell that real estate space and it all has different values. Where it is on the page, there's the headers down the side.
Speaker 1:And when it turns out and how often it pops and everything, and you sell the right to understand where that address came from when it looked at that and then you can bombard them with more of it and things like that.
Speaker 2:I think it's a sort of business gone crazy If you're trying to read a newspaper article online. Some newspapers have so many pop-ups even in the midst of the wording, so you're reading the words and then there's a whole gap of an advert comes up and you're scrolling down and scrolling down. It becomes very difficult to read anything because there's so much noise.
Speaker 1:But we mustn't just be talking about you know what's all wrong with this? I mean, there is a real benefit to virtual space and speeding things up. Productivity is higher. I think you know I like a WhatsApp group because it's much faster in organising things.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not good on WhatsApp groups, but you know that. I'm really not good at it.
Speaker 1:You're not. I love an emoji to answer something.
Speaker 2:No, I do want to. I love one-to-one stuff. I'm just not good on a group.
Speaker 1:I'm saying you know there's a huge benefit to the way everything is yes, there is. The virtual world has speeded us up, and now, of course, we're going to enter into a new world. I'm just taking it as given that there's going to be robots.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So do robots understand what we were talking about earlier, about personal space?
Speaker 2:Well, that's really interesting because I read an article yesterday. They are now starting to programme the understanding of human spacing into robots, oh my God. So I think that robots will fairly soon be able to go. Ok, I can see that Sienna's upset. I will give her a little bit more space. Or I can see she's really upset, so I need to give her a hug. I'll come in close and give her almost a hug.
Speaker 1:So scientists are programming in how a robot should react in certain social situations.
Speaker 2:Which is what we do instinctively. Wow, so we do it instinctively. But if we want a robot to do that, we have to tell the robot what all the parameters are.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a futurist the other day and she was saying that we are all going to have a virtual self. It's separate to you and they're going to do all the things that you don't really want to do. And then that thing, that virtual self, will begin to socialise with other people's virtual selves and I bet those two virtual bots or whatever they're called robots they're going to need to know about space as well.
Speaker 2:Even if it's virtual space or physical space, they're going to have to understand.
Speaker 1:What about in the metaverse or when you're walking around in video reality? You'll need to understand space. Actually, that makes me think about cinema. Cinematographers must know all about space already.
Speaker 2:Yes, what was the lovely phrase that Charlie Chaplin came up with talking about comedy and tragedy? Is that if you go close into somebody, you can see the worries they have, the pains they have the tragedy.
Speaker 2:So if you go in close up, it's a tragedy. If you make it a wide shot and you see somebody falling over, it's quite funny, because you don't know who the person is. It's just somebody falling over is quite funny. But if you're in close up and you see somebody falling over and they really bang their head, you're not going to laugh, no. So essentially, close up is tragedy and wide is comedy Is comedy. So cinematographers and film directors can make the audience feel a certain way depending on how much space they give to the camera In the shot.
Speaker 1:In the shot yeah, in the shot is incredible. And of course, they now have intimacy coordinators who are coordinating that. You're going to invade somebody's personal space deliberately for the art.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And then they coordinate it.
Speaker 2:That's a very interesting point. I mean, I did a play recently and because they were different ages and the different cultures and different people in the play, if you have to get close to somebody on stage, you have to feel comfortable with the other actor, the other person, and therefore there's a whole series now of steps you go through to build up that trust. So you say, are you comfortable shaking hands, Are you comfortable with somebody touching you on the shoulder? And you do it very gradually so nobody feels that their personal space is being invaded. Now of course you understand as an actor, if you're going to do an intimate scene, that's going to happen, but you still want to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1:We're still getting back to this idea of control and now, where it sounds like, even in artistic circumstances, we're trying to artificially create the spaces that are necessary.
Speaker 2:And the rules. We're establishing what the rules are.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to hang on to this idea that you can break the rules, not any way, to make somebody else feel uncomfortable. I just have to constantly be aware that I have a certain nature, that I will always, always follow rules, and I'll be super shy if I'm in any way stepping over a cultural norm or if I'm stepping over what someone expects of me.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I should just be a little braver, maybe sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think I'm more inclined, I think, to break the rules than you are. Yes, but because it's my job and I think I read the situation well, I don't get into trouble if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:In normal situations I wouldn't necessarily sit this close to somebody, but if it's appropriate, if somebody's telling me something very private in a public space and they don't want to be shouting it out, then I will get a little closer so they can tell me how they're feeling.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I see that.
Speaker 2:So you know, there are always nuances. There are nuances and there are always reasons why we would adapt.
Speaker 1:So wrapping this up, which is going to be almost impossible, because what we're talking about is actually feelings and trust and cultural differences, and we've even brought in robotics. Yes, we've brought in all sorts of things about cinema, and these can be in all sorts of different circumstances, but I think what you're saying is that you're trying to build this connection with another human being, so don't invade the space.
Speaker 2:I think what really? When we talked about the idea of doing this as a podcast, I was saying that many of my clients over the years have said I seem to have a problem with a certain situation. I don't really understand what's going on here. Why isn't this working? We talk it through and I said well, I think probably it's because you're not following the rules of certain spaces, whether it's the space of senses, the physical space or the virtual space. In some sense, you're not making somebody else feel comfortable.
Speaker 1:So it's not what you're saying. It's not just what you're saying yes, right, you could actually be changing the outcome of your communication and relationship, undermining it, if you get all these pieces wrong.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it could be inadvertently. Sometimes you're just not aware. So I thought it was fun to do this podcast today and interesting to do it today because I think the more aware we are of other people's space, the more likely we are that our communication will land and that we connect.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great place to end this podcast. Thank you again, robin. Absolutely fantastic, wonderful. Thank you.