Hello and welcome to the Art of Communication podcast , where we talk about everything to do with communication , both in our personal and our business lives . You're welcome to contact us at robincurmodecom .
Speaker 2Hello , it's Sian Hansen here . I'm here with Robin Kermode , hello , and we're going to talk about silence .
Speaker 1I can't believe you just did that . Did you really do that ?
Speaker 2We're going to talk about silence , because you've always said , robin , that silence is an important part of communication .
Speaker 1I had a client once who was the CEO of a very big company and he was a really great speaker and he was really really good . The issue he had was that he was very dramatic and every speech he made he put in a really long pause and it was mesmerizing . You could hear a pin drop . The trouble is he did it every time and what happened was everyone in the company were laying bets on when the pause was going to come . Oh , really .
Speaker 1You can't do it so that it becomes a party trick or it becomes expected .
Speaker 2And given this , when would you let's say to somebody who's maybe less experienced at giving speeches when would you suggest you can put in a pause or a period of silence ? I'm just guessing . As somebody who doesn't give that many speeches , I suppose I would put a pause after I've said something that I think is the most important thing I've said in the speech .
Speaker 1Exactly so . It's when you've said something that hopefully will resonate with them and you want them to think about it , and sometimes that's the time you say it twice . Sometimes you say so , have a think about this , have a think about this . And say the line again Say the line again and then leave quite a pause . If you don't give them time to process it , they can't .
Speaker 2So basically what we're saying about when you're giving a speech silence is for emphasis and silence at the beginning , focus To get focus . But actually largely when we're talking about silence , I think it's probably in some sort of meeting , in a group meeting , isn't it ?
Speaker 1Yes , and the silence , then your silence . I mean , we can only talk about our silence . Our silence would be partly about listening , which is giving other people space .
Speaker 2Well , active listening again is incredibly important , as we've said before .
Speaker 1And very powerful . Actually , some of the very senior leaders I coach are very good at not saying anything , which doesn't mean they have nothing to say . It means they choose the moment to say it . And how many meetings have you been in Sian where somebody just speaks to be heard ? They're not actually adding any value at all , but they go well . I agree with what she said , or he said . I totally agree with that . And you think you've added nothing to this at all ? No , I know .
Speaker 2Or they just want to get their two cents in and it's not in any way helpful and move the conversation along , yeah .
Speaker 1So I suppose the main thing is if you don't have anything to say that's relevant , then don't speak .
Speaker 2I think that's a really practical point in terms of good communication . Around a meeting room table , staying quiet is powerful and practical because it means you're not confusing the conversation . Or wasting time or wasting time , so I think it's really constructive .
Speaker 1But it is interesting . It is about being comfortable with not saying anything and I think a lot of people in meetings feel they have to be visible , have to be audible in a meeting .
Speaker 2Well , of course , because you want to be seen and heard by your boss and everything , Of course .
Speaker 1But actually I think the classy thing to do quite often is just to listen . In sales , for example , if you ask your customer what kind of TV would you like , if you don't listen fully to the answer , don't leave the silence long enough for them to explain everything then you don't know what kind of TV they do want . So you can't sell them the thing unless you know what they want . And that does require you to be comfortable with just allowing them to speak .
Speaker 2Yeah , I had this colleague when I was in sales , when I was a stockbroker , I had this colleague who used silence as a technique .
Speaker 1As a weapon almost .
Speaker 2No , no technique absolutely worked 100% . So in these busy , heady days of the late 80s , early 90s in the markets , he would ring up his clients and he would say hello , it's Patrick here . And he would be silent until they said yes and he went . Well , you know , have you seen ? He'd mention a stock and tell the story . But it was a technique that he used because apparently these people just lent into their phone and thought has it been cut off ?
Speaker 1I suppose they're so used to fast , fast , fast that when something is the opposite of fast . It's interesting . And the thing about pace I I mean I think we've done this before , but when I first started coaching , I went on the radio and I picked up the tone and the energy and the speed of the interviewer . I listened to it back and I thought I'm completely manic because I was picking up their pace and what I've learned is actually use your , use my own pace , my ownusing my own silence to be able to go at the rhythm I want to go at .
Speaker 2You see how odd that sounds , don't you ? I'm going to go on the radio and I'm going to use my silence .
Speaker 1It's extraordinary if you think about it ? It is , but silence is not dead air .
Speaker 2No .
Speaker 1Dead air is when there's no energy in it , but you can fill a silence with energy because it's a pregnant pause actually . In other words , you're expecting something to come afterwards .
Speaker 2There's also times where you're told to be silent . You know , in a place of worship quite often . Or library , you're told to be quiet , because this is time for silent prayer . Have you ever been to a silent order ?
Speaker 1No , Only for a day . My brother went for a week . He actually lost his voice . My brother's a singer , as you know . He got nodules on his voice and he was told not to speak . So he went to a silent Benedictine order in Scotland and didn't speak for seven days .
Speaker 2Wow , that would be hard , wouldn't it ?
Speaker 1It's hard for him because he's a singer , so he didn't sing at all . But he said by the end , actually it was quite weird when he did speak , so used to not , but you could smile at people and you know you could see the world , but you didn't have to fill it but you didn't have to fill it getting getting used to that yeah so no , there are times when you're being told to stay silent .
Speaker 2We tell that to children all the time . But sometimes in a speech we say could you hold any comments until the end and please don't say anything . But some people can't help themselves .
Speaker 1Can they , can , they can't no , and they still come in Mind . You , a lot of my clients say that the hardest thing or the thing that they're most nervous about is presenting upwards to the board or to the CEO , particularly if the CEO is a kind of entrepreneurial mindset where they will just ride roughshod . So often when you're presenting upwards you can't say please don't interrupt me . No , but actually it would be more helpful if they didn't , because probably if you've constructed it well , you will answer all the questions that they would have asked . It's difficult for presenters when people interrupt them . It is difficult .
Speaker 2Yeah , and so sometimes you're told to stay silent .
Speaker 1Or ask Encourage to Encourage .
Speaker 2Encourage to yes , no . Sometimes it's really obvious , especially when somebody's really famous , I think what we have in the uk .
Speaker 1Probably the most loved man in the uk is sir david attenborough , who's the the broadcaster has been , you know , as we all know , broadcasting for over 70 years . He's a kind of grandfather of all things natural and ecological and everything and he's a brilliant man . You wouldn't want to interrupt him , just out of respect , would you ? Oh , it's respect so that's really out of respect . I mean , I wouldn't , you wouldn't interrupt the king , would you ?
Speaker 2That's a nice way to turn it around . Your silence is respectful . Your silence is all about listening and accurately hearing what somebody has to say before you respond , if you respond at all .
Speaker 1Yes , and speak only if it's appropriate .
Speaker 2So I think the time when it's most difficult to stay silent is when you're angry . Anger can rise up at work . It's less appropriate at work than maybe at home , where you just let vent . But tell us a little bit about using the power of silence If my emotions are running high and you are very angry in a situation .
Speaker 1I mean , we all know this , but the danger when you're angry is that you vent and it's just continuous . You tend to say the same thing over and over again , which isn't necessarily very helpful to your argument . It comes from a position of hurt often . People often get angry when they think something's unjustified at work . They think , well , I've been working really hard , why are you punishing me for this ? And I think , if you're in that situation , really hard , why are you punishing me for this ? And I think , if you're in that situation , say how you feel once and then stop talking .
Speaker 2Well , you're also in danger of saying something you're going to really regret .
Speaker 1You can't take it back , can you ? Because once you've said it , it's out there .
Speaker 2No , once you've said it , you're only in a position where you can be forgiven . It can't be forgotten anymore .
You've said it . So I think silence is sometimes a very powerful way to respond in an argument .
Speaker 1Also when you're tired . I think the same thing Anytime when your judgment might be impaired . We should be careful , and maybe that's the time to say do you know what ? I'm going to listen more and say less today , because I'll probably put my foot in it if I don't .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think that's true , or write less emails , or whatever it is write less in an email yeah , if you say less , then it's probably better than giving a half truth or misinformation , or that you reveal that you've misunderstood something because you haven't been listening or you haven't let them finish .
Speaker 1Yes , or you've been blagging , and I think when I was younger , certainly I would . I mean , I'm guilt . I hold my hand up to this and I'm sure many of us are the same . Someone , someone will say well , did you see that film , or do you know this book , or whatever ? And you say yes , yes , I do .
Speaker 1And in your head you're going I really don't , and I hope you don't question me on it further , because they might go what did you think of the third chapter ? And you think I haven't know . Can you tell me I'd love to know more ? Or I just stay silent and then gradually they'll fill me in and I'll think oh , I see where they're coming from and now I can actually enter the conversation . But I haven't looked foolish because I haven't come in too soon because I've been comfortable with the silence .
Speaker 2Yeah , that makes perfect sense . So we've looked at silence in a speech and we're now looking at silence in a meeting and when it's most powerful , and basically what we're saying is keep your trap shut if you don't know what you're talking about .
Speaker 1If you don't know what you're talking about , absolutely right .
Speaker 2Don't lengthen the meeting . Be respectful , be silent and contribute . When you feel you've got something helpful and truthful to say and contribute . Don't interrupt and actually you will be noticed oddly .
Speaker 1Because it's powerful . Because it's powerful , so tell me more about this power behind silence . Well , it's something actors learn Really good actors . It's actually the gap between what they say , In other words , what are they going to say next ? So character A may say something to character B . We're now waiting for the response from character B , and that pause is electric because we're going well . How are they going to respond to that ? What are they going to say ?
Speaker 1I mean , this is an outrageous thing to say for A and what is B going to do ? And the longer that pause is , the more exciting it is . Once the response comes , we go okay , now we're into a different thing , but the pause is helpful . And Claude to different things , but the pause is helpful . And claude debussy , the french composer , has this wonderful phrase the music is in the silence between the notes . Oh , the music is in the silence between the notes . And often you get to a really emotional part of a piece of music and there's a almost like it rises over a cliff and then comes down again over a hill and comes down , and that moment of pause is extraordinary .
Speaker 1I , I know , remember when we inherited a lovely dinner service from my parents and it was hand-painted . It was a white dinner service with tiny blue stars on it . What's interesting when you look at it ? There's a lot of gaps between the blue stars . If you just covered the whole thing in blue stars , it would be a plate full of blue stars , but actually it's the space between them that allows you to see the tiny blue stars . And similarly , if you filled your wall up with pictures , with oil paintings the whole wall you can't really see any of the oil paintings .
Speaker 2So same with words , same with words and when you're speaking .
Speaker 1And if you have space around them , silence around them . Actually you can really appreciate that one word or that one painting .
Speaker 2Is there one playwright ? You think that does that very well .
Speaker 1Well , ibsen , chekhov , all the classics can be played like that . It always depends on how they're played .
Speaker 2Of course .
Speaker 1I mean Shakespeare can have you know to be or not to be , can have a huge pause in the middle because the character is deciding whether to stay alive or not that pause can be enormous or it could be short , depending on what the actor chooses to do , but the power of that pause is incredible .
Speaker 2You spoke recently , I think , on social media , about the power of a pause .
Speaker 1Coming in too quickly .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Yes , this is to do with answering questions . So , sian , if you could ask me this question . So , very simple question what is your favourite colour , robin ? And I'll answer in the bad way .
Speaker 2Robin , what is your favourite colour ?
Speaker 1Blue .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's too quick , so how does it ?
Speaker 1make you feel it makes you feel I'm dismissive of the question in a way . Of course , I know the answer is blue . I'm wearing blue . Now , if you ask me the same question again , this is a better way of answering the same question robin , what is your favorite color ? Blue yeah , it works better well , it works because it makes it look as if I'm thinking about it you got a huge response on social media for this huge I know it's the biggest response of any video we've ever had .
Speaker 1actually , it was literally just explaining that one thing of valuing the question by not coming in too quickly and making the person feel valued . Yeah , and it's a super simple way , but it's in minuscule what we're talking about today , which is the power of the silence and the power of the pause .
Speaker 2So thinking about individual relationships when you're just speaking to one other person ? Is there a time to be silent ? In other words , is it okay to be comfortable with silence when you're thinking over a question that they asked you ?
Speaker 1When is silence a really intimate part of a two-way conversation way conversation If somebody tells you something very personal about their personal life , if you listen and then eventually respond , or maybe just listen as they tell you this . I mean , I was coaching one person once and he said something very extraordinary happened over the weekend . Robin , and I said okay , and he told me that and it was so awful I can't even tell you what it was on the podcast , but it was so destabilising and he said I think I might have to leave my job and become a priest .
Speaker 2Whoa .
Speaker 1It was this big , and I don't think I responded for probably 20 seconds . As I was listening to what he was saying , the conversation slowed down quite a lot , and so both of us had quite a lot of silence in that conversation .
Speaker 2Because it was so big .
Speaker 1It kind of demanded that really . It was like , well , how do you even respond to something like that ? And then I imagined how he would have responded to what he actually saw , which he then told me and I was then responding changes its tempo appropriately because of what we're talking about . So silence can be much longer , I suppose , in very serious issues like that , whether they're personal or business , but when they're serious , I think they can be longer , because you're already thinking about it and I know that in crisis .
Speaker 1I was working once with the global head of risk for one of the biggest banks in the world and I said how is your day going ? He said , well , not great , because the whole of our computer system for Asia has gone down . And I said we can reschedule , it's not a problem . And he said , robin , I have a team . There was no element of panic or rush . He was very comfortable with saying I've made my phone call , we'll go and have a discussion over lunch about something else . It's relevant to silence . Because he was prepared not to rush . I immediately went into fix mode . So I immediately went into well , of course you must get on your hands and knees with a screwdriver . And he's saying , robin , even if I went on my knees with a screwdriver , I can't fix it the way he told me . That was much slower and he had many more pauses in his speech .
Speaker 2I think you're right . I think quite often when I've seen people faced with a crisis , they go slower . I think they've been told to go slower and to really think , because I recently did some training on timing stage shows . The one thing they kept saying to us in our training was if there's a crisis , if you have to radio in a crisis during this production , take a breath , stay calm , pause , then say what you have to say yes , don't tumble it out , because actually , when it's tumbling out , you're not making much sense . We just mentioned being comfortable with silence . Is that something that you can learn ?
Speaker 1I think it is . I can only speak for myself and from what I've observed in my clients . But for myself I'm much better at it than I was when I was younger . I think when I was younger I felt I had to be a performing monkey of some sort . Maybe that's why I became an actor , but it was quite high energy . If I look back on myself then maybe it's just getting a little bit older . You feel you have less to prove . I listen more than I used to do and I think that's a good thing . I wish I did it when I was younger more . But maybe that's something you learn as you get older . Certainly , working with my clients , I encourage them to be more comfortable with silence and you can learn it . But you've always seemed to me to say that you're a very good listener always have been . Did you always feel comfortable with silence or ?
Speaker 2do you feel ?
Speaker 1comfortable now with silence .
Speaker 2No , I don't think so . I'm one of those people that I'd quite like to get things done . I don't want meetings to drag on or anything like that . So I tend to try and construct a meeting . So we cover the points quickly , succinctly . Everybody has a say , we come to a conclusion , We've got an action point Go .
Speaker 1So it could be 11 minutes . It doesn't have to be 25 or half an hour .
Speaker 2But what I have noticed is that , in personal conversations , I'm now much , much better at just staying silent as necessary , because what I've noticed is that someone may not have finished speaking even though they've gone silent . Yes , they're still trying to summon the courage to say more . Socially though , which isn't something that we've talked about yet but in social situations , when you're at a drinks party or whatever it is a dinner party I'm really uncomfortable when the table goes silent .
Speaker 1Because you feel it's your responsibility to host .
Speaker 2Well , maybe not to host necessarily if I'm not the host . I just think it's just bizarre that , let's say there's six of you having dinner together , that people would just be silent and a social situation is just that .
Speaker 1Whose responsibility is that ?
Speaker 2I don't know . I think it's got to be the host .
Speaker 1Well , I think it has to be the host . But I'm like you . If I'm not the host at an event and I can see that somebody at the far end of the table is being ignored or they're on their own , I try to include them , even though I'm not the host , just because I think it's a kind thing to do .
Speaker 2Yeah , that kind of silence I'm not used to . I was at a meeting recently where we were having lots of discussion points and we got to a natural break and the chair said OK , we'll take a 10 minute break and in something like that , I'd expect silence in that break . We carried on the meeting and then lunch came , so we paused the meeting and we all went to get our food . It was buffet style .
Speaker 1Together .
Speaker 2Yeah , we were all lining up . All conversation stopped , we sat and ate our food in silence .
Speaker 1And nobody said and tell me about your family or you're going on holiday or anything .
Speaker 2Nothing , and it was understood that that's the way the chair wanted to organize it and nobody felt comfortable having small talk .
Speaker 1And what did that silence feel like ?
Speaker 2Oh , really , really awkward for me , but nobody else felt it awkward . Everybody felt it was absolutely comfortable and that's the way the day was going to run . Lunch was virtually silent while we ate , and then we started the meeting again and conversation flowed
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Speaker 1I'm comfortable with silence , but that embarrassing silence that you've just talked about there , it feels unnatural . It's not like there's a communal group where everybody's thinking about something which you can feel , and there's a kind of energy in that . This seemed almost like everyone was head down eating their food and they're like in little closed off boxes .
Speaker 2Yeah , but I think that silence is probably something that a lot of people experience now , because our world is less socially based , one to one , communally , it's more online , and so I think quite a lot of people are maybe used to having silence . I don't know , but I get the feeling that a lot of people are very comfortable with silence and that's the way they studied or did university or whatever it was .
Speaker 1Well , yes , they may be . I also noticed that , of course , many people seem to have headphones all the time , so they're on their own , they're not communicating , but they're constantly being stimulated by listening to podcasts which I hope they do on their phones or music or something , but sitting on a park bench just in silence , or sitting in the back of an empty church .
Speaker 2Heaven .
Speaker 1I like silence because I talk all the time . It's my job and I , quite like you know , meet weekends .
Speaker 2I'm happy just to enjoy the silence , go for a long walk in silence , yeah .
Speaker 1You've got to be on the same wavelength as somebody and you've got to be a true friend to somebody .
Speaker 2I think if you can walk in silence with them and still feel connected to them , but you don't actually have to say anything , and that sounds like a really good place to end when you're walking side by side , next to your friend , where you feel a connection but you're silent there are lots of other fun episodes in this series .
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