Preventing Educator Sexual Misconduct with Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic

In this episode of One in Ten, host Teresa Huizar speaks with researcher Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic about preventing educator sexual misconduct, which has increased in schools even as abuse rates have declined in other youth-serving settings. Dr. Jeglic describes limited prior research since a 2004 Department of Education report and presents her team’s survey of 6,600 recent high school graduates: 11.7% reported some form of educator sexual misconduct and about 1% reported contact abuse, with survivors reporting grooming as a near-universal pathway. 

Time Stamps: 

Time. Topic 

00:00 Why Schools Are Riskier 

01:44 Research Gap and New Data 

03:13 What Counts as Misconduct 

03:49 Grooming and Boundary Creep 

08:32 Mentorship Versus Betrayal 

09:58 High Risk Roles and Spaces 

12:33 Prevalence and What It Means 

14:03 Building a Culture of Safety 

16:58 Training That Names Educators 

19:03 Codes of Conduct That Work 

19:37 No Touching Policies 

20:57 Online Contact Boundaries 

23:04 Pass the Trash Fixes 

24:09 Supervision and Student Reporting 

26:02 Progress and Patchwork Rules 

27:25 Policy Reforms and Grooming Laws 

30:29 Mandated Reporting Gaps 

32:33 Why Data Stays Spotty 

35:14 Parents Prevention Playbook 

37:24 Research Updates and Wrap Up

Resources

• National Blueprint | National Center to S.E.S.A.M.E.

Transcript

Teresa Huizar: 

Hi, I'm Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten. In today's episode, Preventing Educator Sexual Misconduct, I speak with returning guest and researcher Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic. Over the past few decades, thankfully, and due to prevention efforts, the rate of child sexual abuse has dropped in many child and family serving settings, faith communities, and youth serving organizations. But what is the one setting in which it's actually increased over time? Sadly, schools. 

The fact that schools were growing less safe over time and that virtually all sexual misconduct in school settings involved grooming, led Dr. Jeklic and her fellow experts to examine the research and answer some pressing questions. What can schools themselves do to take responsibility to make their setting a safer place for kids? What can policymakers do at the state and federal level to create a statutory framework that prioritizes child safety? 

And how can parents talk to their children about recognizing when a teacher or coach steps over the line? I know you'll be as interested in this conversation as I was. Please take a listen. 

Elizabeth, welcome back to One in Ten. 

Elizabeth Jeglic: 

Thank you so much again for having me. 

TH: 

Well, let's see. I mean, you're an old hand now. This has to be our third or fourth conversation or something like that. So thank you for being so generous with your time. I am wondering, because we've talked about a variety of topics in the past, but I'm not sure if we've talked much about sexual misconduct in schools. And so I'm just curious about why your research interests took you that direction. 

EJ: 

I think part of it was, as you know, I study sexual abuse prevention broadly, but one thing that kept coming up time and time again in the media were these cases of educator-perpetrated sexual abuse. And when we went to the research, there really was not a lot on this topic. Charol Shakeshaft, who is really the pioneer in this area, did a very seminal report to the Department of Education in 2004 documenting the issue. And then there really wasn't anything since then, or very little since then, I shouldn't say anything. 

My colleagues and I, we wanted to see if this is still such a big problem as it was going on to the extent that she said it was. I mean, I think she identified 9.6 % of all high school students would experience educator sexual misconduct, which is a tremendous amount. And so we used her methodology and we conducted a similar study where we surveyed 6,600 recent high school graduates on their experiences of child sexual abuse between K through 12. And we actually found that 11.7% reported some form of educator sexual misconduct and with about a 1% reporting some form of contact sexual abuse. And when you extrapolate that to the population of the US, that's like 500,000 plus kids who are gonna be experiencing contact sexual abuse from a teacher. And these are the people that are most trusted, the people that we think that are helping and guiding our children. And so I think that was just something that really hadn't been well studied before. And so we have really worked with all our partners to understand it better. 

TH: 

You know, throughout the report that you all issued on this subject, you use the term sexual misconduct over and over, but it covers a very broad range of things. So, just for our listeners who may not be as familiar with that term and educational setting, what exactly are we talking about? 

EJ: 

So sexual misconduct is a broad term, as you note, and it defines boundary violations of a sexual nature, often verbal comments like sexual comments, which are clearly inappropriate in a school setting, but it can also encompass sharing of images that are inappropriate as well as contact sexual abuse. 

TH: 

So much of your research is really related to grooming in the context of child sexual abuse. How do these two issues that we're talking about connect to each other? 

EJ: 

I think it's so important because we did a smaller study of 25 survivors of educator sexual abuse and all 100% reported grooming. And so when we see these cases and when we hear survivors accounts of these cases, they are almost textbook grooming cases. So they were little trickles that is a gradual process where a child was selected and then they started to cross the boundaries and they start talking to them and texting them and emailing them. 

It becomes increasingly sexualized and then the contact sexual abuse happens and then the disclosure is prevented. And so we were seeing the grooming stages really exemplified in these cases of educator sexual abuse. And so it's really important that when we are training people to prevent this, that they recognize that grooming is involved. 

TH: 

One of the things in your report you also noted is that people just wonder, how does this start? How does it begin? And your report talks about it in this, as you've mentioned, boundary breaking behavior, but also ethical violations. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

EJ: 

Sure. You know, teachers have an ethical code of conduct and, you know, there are general boundaries that we know as adults who work with children that we shouldn't cross. And obviously having a sexual relationship with a child or a minor is prohibited. But I think that it starts with some of these boundary violations, right? Like we have found generally that only about two thirds of perpetrators go into the situation thinking, I am going to abuse this child. But we see that these boundaries start getting crossed. They start giving one child more attention, talking to somebody a little bit more. And for whatever reason, they have vulnerabilities that then leads to the contact sexual abuse and the violation of their ethics. But a lot of it comes down to, I think everybody on the onset would say, yes, no, you should not have a sexual relationship with an adolescent. 

But it doesn't happen immediately that way. And so I think it's really important to recognize those lesser boundaries and like those lower-level boundaries that are being crossed and that lead to these larger scale ethical violations. 

TH: 

Things like communicating with students after school online or in a way that their parents aren't privy to those kinds of things. You're saying it can start in a way that, while not a good idea, might seem to a parent even, or certainly a child, as innocuous, or certainly not something where you're going to go, that's grooming, I'm reporting that. But nonetheless, it can be an entry point into these other behaviors. 

EJ: 

Yes, and so we often see even on school systems, they start to email about school things. And then maybe there's a question about something that is not school related. And then we start seeing emails that are happening even on school servers at inappropriate hours, like 11, 12, 1 o'clock in the morning. The frequency of the emails is increasing. And then they take the conversations offline. There might be social media communications. Then they're spending more time together at school. There might be off-campus rendezvous, things like that. 

So it's kind of a gradual boundary violation. And so while the intention initially might not be to abuse the child, it then leads to that. 

 TH: 

I think this is also what makes it tricky in explaining it to kids too, because I think some of these things, even if it's a younger adolescent, to explain to them why it could be dangerous for them to be getting text or messages through their social media accounts from a teacher or a beloved coach or whatever it is, that's a little bit of a trickier conversation than some of the more red flags of grooming, for example. And I think that that's really why adults have to be the one monitoring and paying attention to these things. But it does make those conversations that we do need to have with kids, I think, trickier. 

EJ: 

Yeah, and it's hard to explain why they can't get those communications and why they may be appropriate. But I think if we go back to what we've talked about in our previous discussions, I think these are conversations that start young and this is just we have to have certain boundaries with adults. And when adults start violating those boundaries, then, you know, a trusted adult needs to be told. Kids should know that their teacher should not be friending them on social media. They might think it's OK. A lot of kids don't know that it's not OK. 

Or that they might be texting on their private phones with their coach or their music teacher, but that's not okay because that's how this starts. 

TH: 

I really think one of the unique things about the school setting that makes this all even dicier is that kids naturally gravitate toward a mentor. And I think all of us can think of an example of someone who behaved perfectly appropriately and was a wonderful mentor to us and really shaped our academic or professional life. There's this other side of it where something can start seeming as though it's mentoring and then take a turn into territory that is much more inappropriate and boundary breaking. 

EJ: 

I’m glad you brought that up because the majority of teachers are not harming children and they are wonderful and they are the mentors that our children need and I myself have a teacher that kind of changed my life and so we don't have to celebrate teachers but you know I think the dangerous thing lies in that there is this kind of slippery slope I think sometimes and so having those professional boundaries is so important because we know that the violation of that trust is so harmful to the child right like 

 You think that this is a teacher who is believing in you, who thinks that you're special, that is making you feel important. And then they go and they violate these sexual boundaries. And then that just really undermines your self-confidence, your belief in teachers and the educational system and schools in general. So it's like the institutional betrayal that comes with that is really very traumatic. 

TH: 

Absolutely. One of the things you also noted is that some positions in schools seem to be more vulnerable to this sort of thing, which is not to say in a particular profession that is something about the profession makes it so. But just access, seemed to me from what I was reading. So can you talk a little bit about that? 

EJ:  

So generally we found that gym teachers and coaches and music teachers are disproportionately represented. And that is what we hypothesize is for a variety of reasons. One, if you think about where their offices are located, the music is usually off the main hallways as well as the gym and the gym teachers' offices. And so there's not that same oversight in terms of the spaces. And also when you think about the way that gym and music programs are structured, they're less like sitting rigidly in a classroom in a certain configuration with all these, there's a lot more flexibility and there's a lot more opportunity for informal interactions, communications. They happen before and after school. There's sometimes the opportunity to travel. So there's a lot more informality in the relationships. And that's, I think, how some of those boundaries get crossed and also how sometimes it can happen because we don't see them. Like there are dead alleyways and there are no cameras there. So it's easier for that to happen. 

TH: 

It's so interesting that you say that. was in band. I played clarinet very terribly, by the way, when I was in junior high and high school. But what is so interesting is it was the band tall was tucked away, just as exactly as you're saying. And I also think probably because we did go on trips and we did have practice after school and all that, people tended to hang out there. And so I can see that in gyms as well, right? You might be close to coaching. Kids tend to hang out there.  

And it's that sort of informal hanging out where you might not have another teacher or another adult necessarily observing any of that. 

EJ:  

Absolutely. And also the interactions are more informal, Like it would be like, you know, you're not really talking about your day so much with your academic teachers and math class, right? And so here they can talk, you can talk more informally. They might talk to you about your boyfriends or romantic situations. If you're in the band, there might be liaisons with other band members and they might talk to you about that. So those are the kinds of conversations that we see in the grooming process. And like, once we are not talking specifically about music theory or how to be the best athlete, which is normal. But at the same time, we have to be more cognizant that those are risk factors. And especially when people are vulnerable themselves, they can cross those boundaries. 

TH: 

One of the that you mentioned earlier in this conversation had to do with the prevalence, prior research has been done on that and even your own look at that. And I have to say, I was surprised a bit. Not that I ever thought it was uncommon because as a CAC director, I had had too many cases that involved coaches and teachers and whoever else to have been shocked or surprised necessarily, but 9 to 11% is just a pretty high number. mean, that's a very common experience. It's not like you're saying, it just never happens. It's so very rare. A 10% essentially prevalence rate is just... That is very much higher than we would like to see it. That's for sure. 

EJ: 

And just to underscore that that is not contact sexual abuse, that is generally verbal educator sexual misconduct where they're making some sort of either sexualized joke or comment or making comments about a student's body or something that makes them feel uncomfortable because there's a sexual undertone to it. And so the contact sexual abuse in our research was about 1%, but that's still tremendous when you think about all the kids that are. I think there's like not one school district that's not touched by this. Like I think it's like very prevalent across all the countries. 

TH: 

I think it's actually the subject of discussion and has been for many years actually quietly among school superintendents and principals and others who've had to deal with that. Thankfully, now it seems to be more a part of the public conversation that they have with their peers and also that folks have. I want to talk a little bit about, we have this sort of unique setting, right? Which kids are required to go to and there's background screening or other things, but it may not pick up everything. You noted in the report as well that many of these behaviors, because it's not all contact sexual abuse. It's not all things that would be on a sex offender registry or for which somebody would have a criminal conviction that would show up. And so when you are thinking about what schools can do to make for safer situations, you had a whole list of things that were recommendations about that. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

EJ: 

Sure. I think first of all, you have to have a culture of safety and accountability. And I think, as you well know and as we've talked about before, it's really a top-down kind of process. And so I understand that educators and superintendents have a lot of struggles that they have in the education system. And this is probably not their highest priority, but I think it needs to be as high as anything else. Because if our kids aren't safe, then they can't be properly educated. And we don't want to inflict more harm upon them. 

And so really underscoring from the top levels that this is something that we're paying attention to. And I think every year teachers are mandated reporters. And I think that's a very important role that they play because while we're talking about educators who perpetrate sexual abuse, most sexual abuse happens in the home. And teachers are the ones that are the most likely to report it. And so they have a very important role in protecting children. But a lot of that mandated reporter training is like a one and done every year. You watch like a 20-minute video that you pay attention to probably very little and then it's done. And so it's not embedded in the culture. And so there would have to be discussions about this and examples, because often we see cases where people saw something, they felt something was amiss, and then they didn't do anything about it, because they really weren't sure, is this a mandated report? They were talking sexually, or they had these emails, or I saw them behind closed doors. What do I do about it? Then the other thing too is there have to be systems of accountability and documentation. And so we talked about the lower-level boundary violations. Those need to be explicit. So this is what we can and cannot do. You cannot be alone in a room with a door closed with a student. And so if that is observed, then that needs to be documented. You don't have to fire somebody immediately, but that needs to be documented. There needs to be a retraining. And then if it's observed again, then there's a problem, right? Like once you kind of shame on you, twice shame on me kind of thing. And then we also have to have what is called to pass the trash legislation, which basically means that when there are allegations of sexual misconduct that previously educators had been allowed to retire or resign quietly and move away and nobody ever knew. And there were all these like policies that they prevented like disclosure of all that information. And so we want now people to not be able to do that. 

TH: 

I'm to just stop you here for a minute because I think that there's so much to unpack and the ones you've already talked about. But one of the things that I am curious about, because I know that you have reviewed a lot of mandatory reporter education, know, here's what you should do, you know, Erin's law related kind of curriculum, these kinds of things. I'm wondering if you've ever seen any of it have scenarios that involve educators as the perpetrator. 

EJ: 

Most of them don't. I don't think I have seen one yet with the educator being the perpetrator. No. And I think we need to talk about that, especially in schools, because we're seeing it. It is important. 

TH: 

That's my experience too, that the scenarios that get played out, and it makes sense since home is a frequent, sadly a frequent flyer in terms of where it is happening, that there would be an emphasis there. But I think it's what makes it so unfathomable for educator colleagues and why maybe they're partially overlooking or just even if they have a funny feeling, they don't necessarily credit it in the way they should is because it just seems unfathomable that it would be a peer who's doing these things. I mean, I would love to see that added into these existing curricula because I think it could really provide some additional, well, it would raise a discussion. 

EJ: 

Exactly. I think that's the important part. And that's why I think, like, as I said, I know we've moved a lot of these trainings online, but I think these need to be discussions. And then people go through scenarios and vignettes and they all share their opinions, because that's how people think critically. When you're watching these videos year after year, you're not thinking critically, you're doing something to check it off a list. Because we want people to think critically, we want to say like, Oh, I've noticed that teacher is spending a lot of time with student x, what's going on there? What can I do about that? What is going on or you know looking at email systems and saying huh this teacher is emailing student Y at two o'clock in the morning repeatedly what's going on there and so you know really understanding how this happens I think is so important and that teachers can be perpetrators as well. 

TH: 

I think the other thing that you mentioned among your recommendations, and I think it's one of the ones that doesn't get enough attention, is the importance of codes of conduct, especially ones that are very explicit about what's permitted and what's not. Can you talk about that? Because I think that whenever you start talking about codes of conduct, people are like, yeah, it's like a personal handbook that nobody ever looks at once in a blue moon. But I actually think it's far more important. 

EJ: 

Yeah, and so a lot of codes of conduct are like, don't have sex with a student. 

TH: 

That's very important to have that as a rule. 

EJ: 

But we don't have like the lower-level behavioral things. And so I think we all hear about hugging, right? And so I hate to say like we shouldn't allow people to give children hugs because especially little kids sometimes need a hug. But at the high school level, teachers should really not be touching students. There should not be hugs because we know that those are kind of like the gateway. Like the hugs start to get longer, there starts to be more touching, things like that. 

 And so we have to have that explicitly stated. Like there'll be no touching, there is no one-on-one and rooms behind closed doors. And so the more that you have the very detailed grooming behaviors listed, and this is what we're training to, when you see it, you can just say, I saw so-and-so do this, that's a violation of our code of conduct, then it's documented, right? And so then you can bring the person in and they can say, you know what? This student was having a really rough time. 

 I just wanted, I closed the door because they were telling me about something very personal and you can say, that's really great that you care so much about the student in the future. If that's happening, please let somebody else know, or please keep your door open or go to a place where, or go to the counseling room and let the counselor know just so that you're protecting yourself and you're protecting the student. You know, or it might be that there is no explanation for it and now you're watching that person and you're putting additional eyes on them. So. 

TH: 

I think too that the part of it that people seem to not include as much in codes of conduct as well has to do with the online contact, communication really, after school. I feel like also people got into some very bad habits during COVID because there just had to be these informal systems set up very quickly. And so there were teachers who were reaching out very informally to students to provide assignments or to check in or whatever. And much of that was just totally innocuous. But some of it seems to have persisted as like normalized that you would have some of this. And that's where I have a lot of concern because I think there's so much grooming that happens online anyway and in all those ways that I just, feel like it doesn't get all the attention it should in codes of conduct and in trainings and all the other places. 

EJ: 

Absolutely. And I have yet to see a case, a present day case of educator sexual misconduct where there wasn't some social media or text messaging or emailing involved. And I think that really needs to be very strict that communications between students and educators or school employees is only through school sanctioned systems that are monitored. Like, I guess, like sometimes coaches, there's text messaging, but they have systems where you can send blast. Everything is being monitored. They're being screened for keywords, which isn't always foolproof. Obviously, you can get around it and that there are strict prohibitions about informal cell phone conversations. We can't contact via your own personal cell phone. You cannot contact students on social media. so students need to know that too, because then they can report if something like that happens, because they may not know. 

TH: 

Yes, and also because the contact, as an innocuous contact, can originate with the kids themselves. You know, because they don't see anything wrong with, let me try to find my teacher on Facebook or wherever. And it's like, yes, and you should not be sending them private messages, irrespective of the fact that you found them. You know, that's not appropriate, that kind of thing. When you were talking about the trash, pass the trash legislation that's needed and how frequently that moving of people around but not solving the problem. I thought we've seen this in other types of child sexual abuse cases as well, right? In clergy abuse and other types of things where instead of really dealing with the problem, it's just moving the person on and really spreading the abuse. 

EJ: 

Absolutely. Sometimes it's hard because even when there is an investigation or the police are called, the allegations are unfounded. And so whether there was credible allegations or not, that doesn't appear on somebody's record. So, part of Pass the Trash is kind of, you know, allowing when you're hiring somebody to them to contact previous employers and they can then say if there were any of these boundary violations, you can say there were these allegations. 

And then it's up to the current employer to decide whether that is something that would prohibit them from hiring that person. But at least they're aware of that and they're making an informed decision. 

TH: 

I think that there's also a place here for really looking at the level of autonomy that teachers do have and the lack of supervision. Think about other workplaces. For the most part, there are regular supervision meetings with whoever the supervisor actually is. Check on with them how they're doing, feedback about behavior, all these things, and especially in small school systems where you might not have multiple staff holding the same level position on the same subject, I think that seems to fall apart. And I don't think that one principal can reasonably supervise a big staff. So I wonder to what degree, not that we have any easy fix for it, but I wonder to what degree this also contributes to the length of time someone can sort of misbehave before it gets picked up and addressed. 

EJ: 

And because of the large nature of the student body in the schools, I mean, it's very hard to see, right? So unless you know the students, if you're looking in the classrooms, it is hard to monitor. I think what we're seeing is that students themselves pick this up. They see other students being groomed, and they know. And so I think that's why it's important to have these conversations not just with faculty, but also with the student body themselves and have reporting mechanisms so that if students see something, they say something because they can reach out and protect their friends if they see something going amiss because most often, the young people confide in each other, they share information. So they can alert the administration that something might be amiss or there's their boundary violations going on. 

TH: 

And then there's the piece of it that now somebody's reported something, you're conducting an investigation. Do you feel that improvements have been made in the way in which schools handle these matters as reports come up, or do you feel like it's still a very long gap to go? 

EJ:  

I do think that we are moving slowly in the right direction. I think lawsuits have done a lot to kind of move the needle because the lawsuits are tremendous and we're seeing large sums being paid out. I think that because schools are, each state is different. There's no real, and the Department of Education is potentially going away at the federal level and each district is kind of autonomous. Like we see things being, there's not a lot of standardization. So I wish like there was some, like these are the base rules that everybody has to follow, but everybody is making it up as they go along and some are more advanced and some are less advanced. And so we are moving in the right direction, but I think we're far from being where we need to be. And that's why we keep like, and while we are seeing, as you've probably talked to Dr. Sinead, decreases in other, the big six youth serving organizations, we're actually seeing increases in sexual abuse within school systems. So we really need to take that seriously. 

TH: 

I'm familiar with that study. It is so disturbing because it is a success story in many areas where we've made just tremendous strides in protecting kids, but in the school setting, it's now become one of the more dangerous settings that they're actually in from a child sexual abuse or misconduct perspective, which is just sad and so very wrong. Let's talk a little bit about policymakers. We've talked about individual schools and what they can do. 

 But you had a whole host of policy prescriptions as well, knowing that it can't be left to every single individual school. And a lot of these were really something that at state levels would need to happen. So beyond sort of pass the trash laws, what else can policymakers do to positively impact this issue? 

EJ: 

I think one of the biggest issues we're seeing is the prohibition of educator student sexual relationships. Because the age of majority differs across the country anywhere from 16 to 18, and most students are 18 plus, and kids with special needs are up to 21, 22 in schools. In some states, it's actually legal for a teacher, or it's not illegal, I guess, it's against their code of conduct. 

 It's not criminally illegal for them to have a sexual relationship if the student is over the age of majority. And so some states have passed legislation that it makes it illegal that as long as the child is in school, they are a student and they are a teacher that there cannot be a legal sexual relationship between the two of them. But not all states have that yet. So I think that's something that we need to pass and it's really important. The other thing is criminalizing grooming. You we are seeing that a movement in the right direction. 19 states have now passed some sort of grooming legislation. A lot of it is incumbent upon also there being contact sexual abuse. But this allows us to, when we're seeing these boundary violations, to then have some legal recourse, which would then show up on that they were arrested or things like that when we're looking at a background check. 

TH: 

Well, I think that one of the things that I was thinking about as you were talking about this move to criminalize sexual grooming is that I think that where it is also helpful is that just the establishment of laws change norms. The public's perception of what is normal behavior and what is prohibited behavior. So even if in many cases these laws only come into play if there's been contact sexual abuse, the fact that they exist and there will be more publicized about them and there will be people who are convicted of it. That alone, I think, shapes the way that your average person thinks about what is allowable and prohibited behavior, which I think it's good. It names clearly what's prohibited. So that also when people overstep the mark and there is a violation, they can't claim they didn't know. You know, I had no idea I wasn't supposed to be doing that. I had no idea. It's like, oh yeah, you did. It's a law and it's incumbent on folks to be aware of the laws that apply to them. 

EJ: 

Absolutely. And I think the needle is shifting. If we look back to like TV and movies from even 20 years ago, you look at some of that and you're like how that is so inappropriate. And now we are recognizing that more and more. So I think that we are moving in the right direction. It doesn't feel like it's fast enough. And unfortunately, too many kids are being harmed. But I am optimistic that we are making change. 

TH: 

Let's talk about failure to report for a minute, because I think this is an area where I think the last state to have criminal penalties for failure to report might have been Pennsylvania. I don't know. We worked on this a few years back. But in real, or maybe it was Maryland. But anyway, when we were looking at it, the sad fact was that it was so infrequent for anyone to actually get prosecuted for failure to report. That's not to say that it was worthless, but it certainly wasn't having any noticeable deterrent effect, that's for sure. 

EJ: 

Yes. I don't think it is frequently prosecuted, but I think I'm seeing more and more cases. I think part of that too, though, is incumbent upon the education that is provided to mandated reporters. I think that a lot of it is they are just unsure. They don't know what to do. And so they don't do anything because the fear of reporting someone falsely is greater than the fear of not reporting. 

And so I think having, again, those conversations, the hypotheticals, walking through these situations, like when you hear a rumor that a teacher is having sex with a student, like, is that a mandated report? If it's just a rumor, like, how do you handle those situations? And I think a lot of professionals, even though they've gone through the mandated reporter training and they know they are mandated reporters, and when they know that when they see something they're supposed to report it, they ultimately don't because a lot of it is just nebulous. 

That goes back to like, who are the perpetrators? It's the teacher of the year. It's the well-liked teacher. It's the teacher that's like the cool guy. And so we don't perceive those people as sex offenders. And these are people we hang out with that we've worked with for 20 years. And so that also makes it more challenging. And so it's really important to A, label the behaviors so that we know, and B, really just have conversations about it and with these hypotheticals and what do you do, because then people will be more prepared when it does happen. 

TH: 

You noted in the paper that, and in our earlier conversation as well, that the data is so spotty because there's no real requirement to carve out a federal data sources, this particular pool. And I'm just curious because it's not like this issue hasn't been bubbling around for a while and there haven't been efforts to change, for example, the way that the FBI categorizes crimes. They've added things over the years or Department of Education statistics that are turned in what those look like or other places in the federal government for that matter. Why do you think this has not been picked up yet? Because I don't think it's that it's an unknown issue. Is it just inertia or the difficulty in changing these systems or what is it? 

EJ: 

I think there are multiple people working in the same space at different levels and there's a lack of communication. I think there's probably politics involved. I mean, there's strong unions for teachers. I mean, I know you said that it's not known, but I think it really is to a certain degree. Like even you, what you said, like, you know, I was really surprised to hear these statistics. Like people just still are not aware of it, even though it gets picked up a lot in the news. 

 I think people still think it's a one-off, that it's not as common an occurrence. think we're not really, because otherwise, why are schools not taking it more seriously? Given that every school district will likely face this issue at some point, like why are there not clearer policies and procedures? Why are there not, you know, more trainings? Why are there not further discussions about this if we know that this is such a problem? 

TH: 

I also just think, you know, thinking about NCAN's data and the difficulty of getting any national data source turned in sort of consistently well. Some of it's also just the sheer scope of what we're trying to do. But certainly, we've got to make efforts and do better, even if it is challenging. 

EJ: 

The other issue obviously is the delayed reporting and that some students will never report that they've experienced that. And that's why I think the self-report studies are powerful because it gets at, because the official statistics are like it's next to nothing, right? Because those are only the prosecuted and successfully convicted cases. And so, you know, I think given that there's such a discrepancy between what students are reporting and what the actual like criminal prosecution statistics are that I think it's just such a hard thing to prosecute and people don't report, especially with adolescents. We see that a lot of them believe at the time they're in a consensual relationship with the teacher-perpetrator. And so it's not until much later that they recognize that this was sexual abuse and a sexual manipulation and they may or may not tell authorities at that point. 

TH: 

So I'd like to end the conversation and talking a little bit about parents for a minute, because while they're certainly not primarily responsible for what happens in the school setting, that's the school itself, and policymakers have a responsibility, at the same time, they're the ones who are seen and talking to their kids every day about what has happened to school and all of those things. So how do you think about what parents need to be saying to kids about these things, how they should think about their own role in terms of, because I think when they think about keeping their kids safe, right? They're often thinking about sort of the immediate circle, neighbors, you know, they're not necessarily honed in on the school setting. 

EJ: 

Yeah. I mean, think first and foremost, we need to put pressure on the school boards to make this a priority. I know after we released this report that a lot of people sent it to their school boards so that they're aware. I think in talking to your children, I mean, I think it's just part of our sexual abuse prevention education that, you know, I think one of the things we found in our research was that kids who are abused by teachers are more compliant and trusting. 

 And so these are the kids that often follow the rules, right? And we tell our kids, like, you have to listen to your teachers and do what your teacher says. And so if teachers start crossing boundaries, you don't really expect that, right? Because these are people that we hold to a certain standard in our communities. So talking to your kids about who is a potential perpetrator and that these are our boundaries, regardless of who the person is. And these are things that we that no adult should be doing with you, regardless of who they are, like, there shouldn't be adults friending you on social media. There should not be, even if it's like your friend's parents, that's not okay. A teacher is not okay. And so give them those examples. And again, I love the critical thinking, but really say like, what would happen if a teacher did this? And then, know, he say, well, how would you do that? And you're like, and then you give them feedback on their response. And so that means that they're thinking about it they're more prepared should something like that happen to them or they see it happening to a friend. And I think we have Erin's law and Jenna's law. And so I having these conversations at school and as you noted, they don't often include educators, but including educators as potential perpetrators and how they handle that within the school system. 

TH: 

Because you have looked at so many different aspects of sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, and grooming and all the things. What are you working on at the moment? Or what's exciting and new to you in this area? 

EJ: 

We have a lot of data now that we really need to write up. We have data now on sexual abuse in sports and grooming, which we documented now it happens. I've got data on familial grooming, which we have yet to analyze. We are looking at the frequency of grooming behaviors and how technology is used in sexual grooming because that's a moving target. And we have a study that we're currently running looking at norms for bathing ages, nudity in the home, and parental co-sleeping because often in familial cases, we see one parent accusing the other parent and we don't really have good norms on some of that data. So we have a few things in the hopper and I think we have a few more that we need to do in the future. And the exciting thing is we actually just submitted a paper where we found that students who were taught about sexual grooming in schools as part of sexual abuse prevention education were better able to identify grooming behaviors after.  

TH: 

Love that. Yes. so good. Well, I can see that we'll have lots to talk about on a future segment too, but I'm so excited that you really are continuing down this important research path. I think it's just really the most important research that's going on in our field right now. So appreciate all that you and your colleagues are doing on this subject. Is there anything else that I should have asked you and didn't or anything else that you wanted to make sure that we talked about today? 

EJ: 

I mean, think this is really just an issue that concerns everybody, you know, and I think we really need to put pressure. And I know, as I said, I recognize that schools have a lot on their plates, but I think that this is a big priority for them because, again, these lawsuits are taking millions out of their school budget, which hurts present-day kids and the kids that are being harmed by the sexual abuse. And so we need to do everything we can to prevent it, and we have to make this a priority. So talk to your school board members about having these discussions in your districts so that this does not happen to our children. 

TH: 

Thank you so much, Elizabeth, and do come back anytime. 

EJ: 

Thank you so much. Take care. 

TH: 

Thanks for joining us on One in Ten. If you like this episode, please like or subscribe. And for more information about this or any of our other episodes, please visit our podcast website at OneInTenPodcast.org.