Surviving the holiday season while grieving

Originally Released on November 30th, 2022

Season's greetings from Grieving Out Loud! For this holiday special, we're revisiting an episode that holds valuable insights for many. Our guest today, Dr. Mark Vande Braak, played a significant role in host Angela Kennecke's grief journey following the loss of her 21-year-old daughter, Emily. As a thanatologist—a fancy term for a grief educator—Dr. Vande Braak guided Angela's family in the aftermath of Emily's passing. You might recall him from an earlier podcast, Episode 10, "Broken Heart Syndrome: Four Ways We Grieve."

In this episode, Vande Braak has helpful, practical advice tailored for those grappling with loss during the holiday season—a time often dubbed the "most wonderful time of the year," yet one that can be the hardest and loneliest for those grieving. Tune in for insights that can bring comfort and support during this challenging time.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: society wants you to be joyful and celebrating holidays. You may not feel that way. 

[00:00:05] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: You don't feel it. So acknowledge it. It's okay. And I would suggest being present with that loved one that died. And that's when I say that, that's where I've always pushed people to have conversations with their loved ones that's died.

[00:00:26] Angela Kennecke: Happy Holidays from Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. For this holiday special, we're revisiting an episode we believe will be helpful to so many. Our guest today, Dr. Mark Vandebroek. played a significant role in my own grief journey following the loss of my 21 year old daughter, Emily.

Mark is a thanatologist. That's a fancy term for a grief educator. He met with my family shortly after my daughter died. 

[00:00:57] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: For example, why don't you buy Emily a gift? Who says you shouldn't? Then when you, when Christmas is over and this gift is still there, it's very touching, but maybe that's something you could donate somewhere.

[00:01:10] Angela Kennecke: You may remember Dr. Mark Vandebrock from an earlier podcast, Episode 10, Broken Heart Syndrome, 4 Ways We Grieve. We'll also provide a link to that episode in our show notes. Today, I'm sitting down with the grief expert again to seek advice tailored for those grappling with loss during the holiday season, a time often dubbed the most wonderful time of the year, yet one that can be the hardest and loneliest for those in the midst of grieving.

[00:01:40] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: But if you really think about it, we miss them physically being here, but we miss hearing their voice. We miss hearing what they say, and if you really, and what I always advocate, if you really trust your heart, you know what they would be telling you. We've just got to pay attention to it, because our brain complicates everything.

Our brain distorts the truth, it distorts everything, but our heart always remains pure.

[00:02:13] Angela Kennecke: Well, Mark, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast again. Thank you so much. Episode number 10, Broken Heart Syndrome has had among the most listens, I think because anybody who has lost someone can relate and can get some advice from what you said. 

[00:02:29] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Sure. And I'm honored to be back. So thank you for having me.

[00:02:33] Angela Kennecke: It seems like this time of year can be a joyous time, but it also can be a very Painful time for so many people. 

[00:02:41] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Absolutely. And what I have found, I've been fortunate to do this work for about 30 some years. And I know the buildup for the holiday is the anxiety, the commercials, all these sort of things come into play.

But what I have found is the actual day isn't as bad as the buildup. And I found it in a very simple way that if you provide structure for the day. If you know on the death date or if you know on the birthday or Christmas, for example, strategic planning ahead, what time are you going to get up? What time are you going to have breakfast?

Spend some time, I say, being with your loved one, talking to your loved one. And for, like, for you with Emily, I would say spend half hour, 45 minutes engaging in conversation. It sounds really abstract and weird. But if you really think about it, we miss them physically being here, but we miss hearing their voice.

We miss hearing what they say, and if you really, and what I always advocate, if you really trust your heart, you know what they would be telling you. We've just got to pay attention to it, because our brain complicates everything. Our brain distorts the truth, it distorts everything, but our heart always remains pure.

[00:04:02] Angela Kennecke: I love that. I think you're correct, all those things that come from the heart. The brain likes to rationalize away. Right. 

[00:04:09] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: What does our society tend to tell you to do? Get over it. Move on. Why are you still grieving? And I hope and pray you've never heard that, but general people will say, Angela, what's wrong with you?

Get over it. Move on in your life. 

[00:04:24] Angela Kennecke: I think people may not always say that to your face, but they'll definitely say it to other people. If they see that you continue to talk about this, you continue. 

[00:04:32] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Yeah, you're fixated on it. What I would challenge that belief by saying, Because you love is why you feel this way.

I mean, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be feeling it. So, the misnomer about grief is that you will always grieve Emily. You will always grieve your loved one. Who says you shouldn't? Because our quick fix society, our culture is extremely poor at understanding Greek. Other cultures around the world do a far better job.

For example, if a spouse dies, if a woman loses her husband, she is to wear a certain color for a year. And every time somebody sees her, she's treated with respect and honor. Kindness, tenderness. Kindness, gentleness. Here, how do you know? What's the descriptor? We're supposed to be back to work in three days, right?

You're supposed to get over it. I use Dr. Ken Doka as a colleague of mine. He developed the term disenfranchised grief, and a sidebar of that is if you have a pet that you've had for 15 years, a dog, a cat, and that animal dies, how often do you talk about that pet? How often do you go to work and say, no, I lost my pet?

Well, the first day probably is an okay thing, but if you do it a second day, then people are going, well, what's wrong with you? And heaven forbid you do it for a third day. Well, at the end of the week, you're still talking about your dog that died. You know what they'll tell you? Go get another one. And I've worked with so many people over life.

I worked with a woman that lost her child at four hours old. And she was told, well, you know what? Go have another one. That'll take care of it. It's, we don't, we have this quick replacement. And it's like, my goodness, we don't function that way. That's our head saying, You know what? Well, we'll try to rationalize.

We'll try to justify it. Well, then, henceforth, look at the addiction world. Look at what it does. Well, you look at the signs, the billboards around, Had a tough day? Have a beer. 

[00:06:29] Angela Kennecke: If it's not acceptable to feel your feelings, if it's not acceptable to talk about them, then you look for ways to cope that are unhealthy.

To numb it out. get rid of it. 

[00:06:39] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: So I, I developed in the strategy, the, uh, the Baratheon model is something that I developed a number of years ago. And the word Baratheon is an old English word back in the year 310, and it means to rob, to be taken away from. And as time advanced, the word changed, devolved into the word bereavement.

But in all my years of doing this work, I have found no better definition. We feel robbed and we want that person 

[00:07:06] Angela Kennecke: back. And I think that especially comes into focus. over the holidays, no matter how long ago you lost a loved one. I know for me, Christmas was Emily's favorite holiday. And she was my kid who loved every tradition.

We had to do every tradition the same way every year. She was always so excited about it. She was my adult kid that came back to make the fudge with me. And she was always there every Christmas. I mean, every holiday she was like that. She loved every holiday. but especially Christmas. She had Christmas socks.

I have actually a Christmas blanket. My grief counselor, who also did quilting, out of her Christmas blankets and socks, and she had Christmas everything, Christmas pajamas, and sometimes I'll just wrap myself up in that Christmas blanket. Why not? Yeah, and I, I feel closer to my daughter at that time. 

[00:07:55] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Well, and I, there's so many different traditions.

You think about realistically, your traditions that you do at holidays are going to be jaded for a while. And it doesn't mean that you go back to doing it the same way, or maybe those traditions change over time. But I've had people, I've suggested for people to set a plate for that loved one at the dinner table.

Why don't you hang the stocking? Why don't you buy, for example, why don't you buy Emily a gift? Who says you shouldn't? Then when you, when Christmas is over and the gift is still there, it's very touching, but maybe that's something you could donate somewhere. So having maybe a strategic planning with your family, maybe it's talking with your kids going, okay, let's do something different this year.

Maybe we don't have to be here. Maybe we can go somewhere else. 

[00:08:45] Angela Kennecke: First year after her death, I knew I couldn't be in our house. I just knew I couldn't be there. I wouldn't be able to get out of bed or function around the rest of my family, which I didn't think was fair to them. So we actually, we went out of town and we did something that Emily loved to do.

We went skiing and that was. It was great to not be home, but it was also hard to be skiing and to be thinking that she would have loved to have been skiing with us. 

[00:09:08] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: And that's, it's kind of breaking that mold or tradition, but it's trying to help you understand, listen to your heart. What does your heart tell you?

Because you can run anywhere and it's still that grief is there.

[00:09:20] Angela Kennecke: I wrote a blog called grief is my constant companion and this was after summer vacation that we went on. I'm at a beautiful beach and I'm walking around feeling grief. Saddened because thinking of my daughter, right? So it didn't matter where I went.

[00:09:33] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: It's there. And that's like for anyone. Again, our society, again, I, I really am a supportive of getting the understanding and education because we need to have the tools to do something with the grief. If you look at it on our history, one death affects a minimum of 128 people. That's just the bare minimum.

On average, statistically, there are 6, 500 people that die every day in the United States. With COVID, you add about 2, 300 extra every day. So, if you look at the numbers and the multiplication, over 30 million people every year, one tenth of our population, is impacted by a death. You can't tell me that doesn't impact how we treat each other, how we look at each other, how, you know, selfish sometimes we get.

And we've got to find, find different ways to honor them, to keep them a part of our story, not separated from, and that's what I've always advocated. 

[00:10:31] Angela Kennecke: Many people can be depressed over the holidays anyway, and then if you add grief on top of that, I think it can be a very tough time. I think suicides go up this time of year, the weather's colder, and then you're supposed to be happy.

Society wants you to be joyful and celebrating holidays. You may not feel that way. 

[00:10:51] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: You don't feel it. So acknowledge it. It's okay. And I would suggest being present with that loved one that died. And that's when I say that, that's where I've always pushed people to have conversations with their loved ones that's died.

And it's a very weird technique, but what I do is I challenge people to literally write, have a written conversation with them. Tell me what you mean by that. Well, I would say, for example, for you, you'd start out, Hey, Emily. I met this crazy doctor who wants me to talk to you, so here it goes. You start talking about what's going on in the day, talk about her siblings, catch her up to speed with what's going on with work, with what you're doing, those types of things.

Because if you think of it logically, we miss them here, but inevitably we miss them talking. We miss having those conversations. And I'm saying if you trust your heart, those memories. Those legacies will still always be there. And that's, you know, the beautiful thing with Emily's Hope is that you carry on Emily's tradition.

And what I've emphasized always is never focus on their deaths, focus on their life. Because their life is what has meaning. We have the birth date, then we have the death date, but what's the most important is the middle part, and that's the dash. That's the life that they lived, who they are. And that's a cognitive thing in some ways of saying, well, you know, there are more than their death is really what it boils down to.

[00:12:20] Angela Kennecke: Yes, definitely. And definitely more than how they died while we're trying to help people in Emily's name not suffer the same kind of fate. I always worry, and I always say this when I talk to groups, that I worry about she's only going to be remembered for how she died because it was in such a stigmatized way.

[00:12:38] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: But that's, and that's your emphasis. That's her siblings, her, one that was, loved Emily. The, the hope and the, the job then is to keep her a part of your story, to put her on display, so to splay, in your heart, because no matter where you go, she can be a part of your journey. 

[00:12:56] Angela Kennecke: Why is writing the conversation so important?

[00:12:58] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: There is something that is amazing that happens when you can take and you have a written conversation with your loved one. And what I say is, set it down, go get a cup of coffee or some juice or something, then come back and read it to yourself. When you read it, it actually becomes a filter and you get to determine what is it that I'm going to put in my heart and what is it that I don't need to hold on to anymore.

There's something in our, our brain scans and our functioning that says, you know what, that's really not important. If I, if you want to focus on her death, go right ahead. But if you say, you know what, I remember when she was. in the dance recital. And she did that great dance. Or when she drew that piece of art, it's my favorite piece.

Those positives start to outweigh all the negative images that have in our brain. 

[00:13:49] Angela Kennecke: Do people ever tell you when they write something to their loved one, that the loved one responds through their own writing? 

[00:13:56] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: In some ways, yeah. I, I try to filter it even more, saying, trust your heart, and what would they say?

Like, if Emily was sitting right here, right now, what would she be telling Mom? I love you. I'm proud of you. You know if you listen. 

[00:14:09] Angela Kennecke: I do hear her voice in my own head sometimes. Or, I talk to her maybe, and she's, Oh, Mom, you know. 

[00:14:16] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: But do you see what just happened with you? You're smiling because you were remembering the pontiffs.

It's so easy to get lost in all the native imagery. It's so easy. What went wrong. Yeah, what I could have, should have, would have done if I should have, if I would have done this. 

[00:14:33] Angela Kennecke: I think all parents who've lost a child do that. 

[00:14:35] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Yeah. But. Ask yourself, how is that helping you? If you're that powerful and you could have controlled it, then you would have.

Right. Guilt is a word that should have never, ever been invented. 

[00:14:44] Angela Kennecke: And I always say that when I talk to other parents, and I talk to a lot of other parents on this podcast who've lost children in a similar way, that if really it was our fault, if we had done something wrong, we wouldn't be so worried that it was our fault or had we done something wrong because we wouldn't even care.

[00:15:03] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: No, you were, you were doing the best you could. You know, and you know this, and I know this, it's not easy being a parent, and you're trying to do the best that you can, and it's not an excuse, but if you could have changed something, you would have. Of course. But the other part of that is how, you gotta always challenge yourself, how is that helping me?

You've gotta ask yourself, how is this helping me? Because if you can say it's not helping me, then you gotta stop it. 

[00:15:27] Angela Kennecke: And also, if the situation were reversed, and I was the one who had died, and Emily was still here, I would never. ever want my daughter to feel guilty or to think she had done something wrong or something to cause it.

[00:15:43] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: And what, what we do is, again, I use the concept of when we put a picture of them in our heart. And so what you're doing is developing the frame to go around that picture. Because when you have that frame completed with the memories, the gifts they gave you in your life, they're never separated from you.

They're always a part of your story. 

[00:16:02] Angela Kennecke: One thing I was talking to an audience about recently. Was, we always think we're going to remember how someone smelled. what their hug felt like or what their voice sounded like. And I'll have a video where Emily is talking. I don't have a lot of videos where she's talking, just kind of that we didn't have smartphones as much when she was younger and all that.

And I find it interesting that the brain really can't retain those kinds of memories. We can't really remember. 

[00:16:31] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: What you remember is, I, I look at, that's part of that filtration process. What are the, the images, the things that I'm going to keep? When I work with trauma, when I work with situations like that, the image of the negativity, it's a car accident or any of those things, and some might say, well, that's post traumatic stress disorder.

That's PTSD kind of thing. And, you know, I, people have heard me challenge that. I don't necessarily believe in that kind of terminology because what you saw was grief. And if we put a label on it, then we get reimbursement, right? And we can go see people for years upon years, but what if you actually dealt with the junk?

What if you actually dealt into the, the processing of grief? Because for me, I'm very biased. I openly admit it. Grief is the hardest work you'll ever do in your life. 

[00:17:22] Angela Kennecke: And most of us end up having to do it. 

[00:17:24] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Right. And multiple times. But when you can get control, when you feel like you can control the grief.

then it doesn't control you. Can you control grief? Yeah, you can, because you can create the, the processing that goes on here. You get to control the picture you put on display. I use that analogy a lot, but the animal analogy that I developed, and there are three animals that help me teach about grief.

And the first is a turtle. There's many types of turtles, painted, mud, snapper. Then there's a cousin, the tortoise, and tortoises can live over 200 years, quite amazing if you think about it, but they're very sacred in the Chinese culture and the native culture. They're sacred because they're always in touch with the earth, always feeling, and because of that, they live a long time, and because they live a long time, they become wise, and with that wisdom comes wealth.

But when storms come, what do turtles usually do? Hide their heads. Yeah. Yeah. They pull into their shell, right? Exactly. Well, how does that relate to humans dealing with grief? 

[00:18:26] Angela Kennecke: A lot of people retreat into themselves. 

[00:18:29] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Yeah, I have to deal with this on my own. I work with this with miscarriages. I'm the only one that experiences, or I'm the only one that did this.

It's so not true. But that process, that's in our mind. We gotta suck it up and deal with it. Then it causes the physiological damage, that causes the cognitive damage, the sensual damage, and emotional damage. It goes hand in hand. So, I would challenge people to really think, are you being like a turtle?

Because, if you're holding it all in, I can promise you, it's never going to go away. The second animal that helps me teach is the Wombly, or the Bald Eagle. Beautiful bird, flies the highest of all birds, you can see its prey from far away, gigantic nests, they mate for life. And they're very sacred in the indigenous native culture because they are considered to be messengers.

They carry the prayers of our humanness up to the creator. And once a prayer is delivered, oftentimes a feather is released. But when storms come, what do eagles do? They actually fly above it, so they take off, and so, I look at it as a great way to avoid it. I'll keep busy. I'll work 80 hours a week instead of 40.

I'll volunteer more. Wait, I'll have a cocktail, or two, or three. And that's where I found in my work that 75 percent of addictions are grief based. I'll do everything I can to block it out. You know what? I'll have a couple of drinks, at least I'll be able to go to sleep. Well, I worked last night, so I might as well do it again tonight.

Then that continuation, you do that 10 times, it becomes a habit. That's not the issue. What's the issue is, is then the body says, I need it to survive. And so then that avoidance goes into play and that can happen for 80 years. You can stay lost in that avoidance the rest of your life. You look back in the history of time, how many people in the depression time lost children?

[00:20:16] Angela Kennecke: Well, right. I mean, that is the one thing I think about a lot. For ages, I think of mothers, of course, because I'm a mom. Mothers have lost 

[00:20:25] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: children. Go to the center. You oftentimes see baby one, baby two. They won't even give a name to the child. Right. 

[00:20:32] Angela Kennecke: I think this is not a unique thing for a mother to have to go through, actually.

[00:20:36] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: So, how does that intercede with relationships. How does that relate to addiction? How does it relate to a chain reaction of events? So that eagle to me is a powerful bird, but it also represents avoidance. So, neither of those animals, the turtle or the eagle, are going to help you, but the third animal always will, and that is the Tatanka, the buffalo.

[00:20:59] Angela Kennecke: That's the one that goes into the storm. 

[00:21:00] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: That's right. So, that buffalo is such a powerful, powerful animal. If you really look at the makeup, it's broad shoulder, big head. They can run faster than horses. They get up to 40 miles an hour in speed. Very family based, and if you go near their calf, they will kill you.

extremely protective, but very sacred because they're the giver of life in the traditional culture, the giver of life, just like in Christianity, God is the giver of life. But when storms come, the buffalo turn and walk into it. They face it. And to me, that's such a powerful analogy that I've got to walk into this grief storm.

I've got to walk into this. To get an understanding, to find peace. 

[00:21:45] Angela Kennecke: So if you decide to walk into your own grief storm over the holidays, your holidays might be ruined. Everyone around you might be upset that you're not acting as if everything is okay. 

[00:21:57] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: They might, but your grief is your grief, right? 

[00:22:01] Angela Kennecke: Well, yes, but I think many of us feel as if we need to please and make sure other people are okay.

[00:22:08] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: And compromise. Yeah, but That's the battle. That's where, for me, Angela, the writing tends to be a very personal journey. It, it, it's a great way for us to do something tangible with the grief. We can see it. We can see those emotions. We can see the tears. It's okay. And I think the misconception about grief is we're not supposed to tear up.

We're not supposed to cry. And that's completely false. Those are emotions because we love, is why we're feeling this, and because you feel robbed, Mafian, that is why you feel this. 

[00:22:43] Angela Kennecke: And I think everyone who's lost a child feels robbed. 

[00:22:46] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Absolutely. That to me is why my, that word is so powerful. 

[00:22:50] Angela Kennecke: I've said that, early on especially, I felt robbed.

So practically, you know, we've talked about, you could change your traditions. You could go somewhere. You could do something. You can write. 

[00:23:01] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: You can write. I think for Every individual is to find out what's going to make sense of something that feels chaotic and not closing the door on possibilities. And people say, maybe have somebody available to call when you're struggling, you know, I emphasize having people there to call, spend time visiting with your loved one that died.

It sounds so abstract and weird, but then you allows you to focus your grief on that time. And then the rest of the day can be yours to determine. 

[00:23:35] Angela Kennecke: Do you think that holidays get easier? I think for me personally, the first couple of years, every birthday, death date, every single holiday felt just like a punch in the gut.

[00:23:50] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Yep. There is a misnomer that the first holidays are the worst. That is not true. It's actually the second, third, and fourth ones that are word. Because you realize Because it This is it. This is it. They're not coming back. They're 

[00:24:03] Angela Kennecke: not coming back. I do feel now in my fourth year, more acceptance. Yeah. I know that she's not coming back.

[00:24:09] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Those are the triggers. And they're, they're the major holidays, the, you know, Christmas and Thanksgiving birthdays. But then there's secondary holidays, such as first day of school. Or 

[00:24:23] Angela Kennecke: When something happens in the family, a wedding, 

[00:24:25] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: a wedding, or maybe when she got her driver's license or things like that, they unsuspectingly hit you.

Yeah. And it's just, I have found we just got to find ways to roll with it. 

[00:24:36] Angela Kennecke: Well, before I do think I dreaded the holidays. Where now I can look forward to the fact that my other children are coming home from college. I have other family members coming. I'll be busy cooking. You know, all of these things, everything felt so joyless at first, where that, I'm finding that joy.

It's not to say it's not tempered with some sorrow, 

[00:24:59] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: right. But it's okay. Think of it, there's a, a beautiful term that's used called amelioration of grief. And what it boils down to is grief takes time, only if you're working at it, it just doesn't magically go away, right? But if you put that intentional work into you, I promise you, you will find peace in your heart.

You'll have that connection, those gifts, those memories that you can choose to focus on. And I found in a very simple way, we can choose to live life better, or we can choose to live life better. One vowel makes a big difference in that word, but we do have that choice. And if you really ask Emily, if you ask your loved one, what would they really want us to be doing?

I think you know what the answer is. 

[00:25:45] Angela Kennecke: Sure. Of course. Of course. Because love is always wanting the best for someone. Right. Love is not selfish. All of these things that that verse has. Yes. 

[00:25:55] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Love is kind. Love is kind. Love is patient. Yes. 

[00:25:58] Angela Kennecke: Yes. True love. Yeah. You can't take personality or challenges out of it.

Yeah. Right, right. 

[00:26:04] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Those are just characters. When you love, you love with your whole heart. 

[00:26:08] Angela Kennecke: What has been the thing that you think has helped, you've worked with so many people over the years, do you know how many people you've worked with? 

[00:26:14] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Right now an estimated 300, 000. 

[00:26:17] Angela Kennecke: 300, 000 people. That's a lot of people.

Has been, you think, the most successful, or what has helped people the most? 

[00:26:26] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: The intentional work. of rebuilding a relationship with our loved one is being able to say, you know what, they're a part of my story. I get to define who I am, but they are very much a part of my story. And those gifts that they gave me are still very evident in what I do.

Just like if I can use you as an example, what you're doing with Emily's Hope is that Matute of who Emily is. 

[00:26:52] Angela Kennecke: Right. I love using her art. in our work. And I always say a couple of things. Helping others helps me. Yeah. And I also think her death didn't have to happen. It could be meaningless. So I'm creating meaning out of something that.

[00:27:08] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Right. And that's what I try to challenge you to look at. It's how do you make sense of something that's senseless? How do you focus the attention on the gifts? 

[00:27:20] Angela Kennecke: Try to do good in the world. That's what I think. 

[00:27:23] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Yeah, and that's exactly, you know, I, I can't ask for anything better, you know. 

[00:27:28] Angela Kennecke: Some people aren't able to do things like that.

Some people get stuck. I mean, they really get stuck. They get stuck in that horrible grief and the denial and this shouldn't have happened. Why did this have to happen? 

[00:27:41] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: It's replaying the tape over and over again. 

[00:27:43] Angela Kennecke: And I don't know how to help them. Well Not that I'm a counselor. I'm not. 

[00:27:46] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Well, I But you're the expert here.

In my selfishness, I would love to meet with them. I would love to be able to walk with them. When I do my work, I premise everything I do. I'm not there to do therapy. 

[00:27:58] Angela Kennecke: I remember that when my family came. Yeah. Right after Emily died, we all came to see you. And you said, I'm not therapist. 

[00:28:06] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: What I do is teach.

I think education is far more important with grief work. It's, it's understanding how each of you, for example, each of your family member are going to grieve Emily, but you're all going to do it differently. Can you each had a different relationship with her? Yes. Yes. You each knew her differently. 

[00:28:27] Angela Kennecke: It's interesting to me though, that each member of my family has been helped in different ways.

putting themselves out there to help the charity and to help others. So the charity of Emily's Hope 

[00:28:41] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: gives the focal point, 

[00:28:43] Angela Kennecke: but has helped each member of the family who's contributed in their own way. What a gift. Yeah, it's pretty amazing, actually. 

[00:28:50] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: You keep the legacy alive. 

[00:28:52] Angela Kennecke: Because a lot of people ask me about Emily's siblings, and we talk about her all the time.

You know, they're sad. They will never get over it. I will never get over it. They contribute in different ways to the charity, and that helps them. 

[00:29:05] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Exactly. And I, I, again, cautious. I would never say, use the words, get over it. I will never use the terms move on. No. Because. Move forward. But you live with it.

[00:29:17] Angela Kennecke: Right. You learn to live with it. 

[00:29:19] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: You, you carry them with you in your life. And that's why I say they're still part of your story. That's why that connection is so powerful when they're in your heart. Because they're always with you. You don't have them physically here. But you still have a relationship with him.

You still can. We've just got to open our heart to hear it. 

[00:29:39] Angela Kennecke: And I think I probably feel the most connected to my daughter when I'm out in nature, when I'm walking, when I'm alone. 

[00:29:44] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: She enjoyed it. So that was that connection. Yeah. Or maybe you're at a gallery somewhere or you see a painting that triggers something.

Yeah. Yeah. There are gifts all around us. 

[00:29:55] Angela Kennecke: There are gifts all around us. It's having to open your eyes and you, like you said, your heart to see them because it's easy just not to notice. 

[00:30:03] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Right. You become tunnel vision and what I'm in essence trying to do is poke some holes in that tunnel. To let some of this light in, if you're willing to look at that light, you're going to find the direction it takes.

Maybe this changes your heart. Maybe it changes how you view people. Maybe. you know, our connection with other people. 

[00:30:22] Angela Kennecke: And I think you're right. Something you said when we started the podcast was that anticipation of these significant dates, really building up to it is much harder in the day itself.

Absolutely. The day comes and goes. 

[00:30:36] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: It's almost like a letdown sometimes. 

[00:30:38] Angela Kennecke: You're going to sound as awful as you thought it was going to be. I do think that there is some truth to that. That is, is a lot of like, Oh my gosh, here we go again. Oh, it's that time of year again. 

[00:30:47] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: If you can just plan, just write down a plan.

Again, what time are you going to wake up? Details. Details. Yeah. You know, what time are you going to have your first cup of coffee? I don't care what it is, but have that structure, but allow yourself the time to talk with your loved one. Spend some time grieving and being, and then when that hour's up or whatever, then this is what I'm going to do.

[00:31:12] Angela Kennecke: You're saying schedule it. Yeah. Schedule the time. 

[00:31:15] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: The structure, the better. I would encourage you this, when you were talking about making fudge, okay, when are you and Emily going to make some fudge this year? 

[00:31:23] Angela Kennecke: And see, I have made it, but I don't think I made it last year. There was one year, but it felt weird not to make it.

[00:31:29] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: So when are you going to make fudge? 

[00:31:32] Angela Kennecke: I'll put that on my calendar. Right. And maybe I'll just be alone in my kitchen and not expect one of my other children to take her place. Because nobody really wants to do it anyway. 

[00:31:41] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: Right. So, I understand. But that way, when you're making it, guess what you get to do?

[00:31:48] Angela Kennecke: I have a conversation with her.

Yeah. Spend time with her. Absolutely. I like that idea. Thanks for that. Yeah, you're welcome. I think getting through the holidays may be a little bit easier for me now and hopefully many other people. 

[00:32:01] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: I hope so. And just like I said, I, my passion in life is trying to help people understand grief in a whole different way.

[00:32:09] Angela Kennecke: Our culture doesn't help us. So thank you for helping us with that. Well, I try. 

[00:32:13] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: I always try.

[00:32:19] Angela Kennecke: As we wrap up this episode, my heartfelt wish is that it has touched you in a meaningful way. If it did, please share it with friends and family and consider leaving a positive review. Also, be sure to check out our other episode with Dr. Mark Vandebrock. You can find a link to it in this episode's show notes.

Thanks for spending your valuable time with us. From the bottom of my heart, I wish you a happy holidays. And as always, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Anna Fye.