Finding power in pain: Unforgettable stories that shaped 2023

Our journey on Grieving Out Loud has been extraordinary over the past year. We've been graced by the voices of countless individuals who, with unwavering bravery, shared the intimate and challenging chapters of their lives entwined with substance use disorder. In these narratives, we've not only heard the heart-wrenching stories of parents who, despite the unimaginable loss, have summoned the courage to speak out about their children's battles with drug overdoses and fentanyl poisonings, but we've also been touched by the resilience and indomitable spirit that radiates from each story.

This episode is a moment to relive some of the most touching, inspiring, and profoundly insightful conversations from 2023. These stories transcend pain and struggle, painting a vivid portrait of resilience, hope, and the unwavering human spirit that flourishes even amidst profound challenges.

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. Over the last year, we've heard from dozens of people who've bravely shared their personal and challenging journeys with substance use disorder. We've also listened to the heart wrenching stories of parents who, despite unimaginable loss, have found the strength to speak out about their children's death from overdose or fentanyl poisoning.

Additionally, we've had the honor of interviewing some of America's top officials working to curb the deadliest drug epidemic in our nation's history.

[00:00:34] Justin King: I've worked in Afghanistan in the poppy fields and eradicating that. And it's a very tedious process produce heroin from that. 

[00:00:43] John Maier: human human psychology I think has pretty much been the same, at least for the last few thousand years. But addiction and especially really tragic outcomes that we see as a result of addiction, those are kind of new as we, as we, know. And so well, what's changed?

Well, not brains. Brains are kind of similar to the way they were 2000 years ago. Something else has changed and it's the environment that's changed, 

[00:01:00] Angela Kennecke: In today's episode, we're taking a moment to revisit some of the touching, inspiring, and profoundly insightful conversations from 2023. These stories not only reflect the pain and struggle, but also the resilience, hope, and unwavering spirit that emerges even in the face of such profound challenges.

[00:01:21] Eric Hodgdon: There's no way that I'm ever going to be the same again. And you know, I'm going to say to that is that you're absolutely right. You're never going to be the same again. You can actually become stronger because of this. Any situation that we have in life, it doesn't matter if we've lost a loved one, doesn't matter if we've lost a job, doesn't matter if we've lost a relationship, what happens and what has happened in the past can be some momentum and some fuel for you to find a way to get back up and move forward in any of these situations.

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[00:01:49] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for joining us for this special episode of Grieving Out Loud. Our hope is that it leaves all of us with a deeper understanding of our shared experiences.

It's not hard to see that many Americans are struggling. A record number of people, more than 112, 000 a year, are dying from illicit drugs. More people in the country than ever before are also taking their own lives, and research shows youth mental health is in a crisis.

[00:02:20] Harold Noriega: Sometimes fitting in that box is challenging for kids. And I see other kids now in my neighborhood where they don't fit into that box and they struggle and they internalize it. And what they all want to do is they want to have somebody to talk to about it. and they don't know how to ask for that because mental health is regarded as a stigma.

[00:02:40] Chris Herren: I'll never forget it I was 11 years old and I promised mom that I never, ever drink. And of everything we've been through, and I remember at 13 years old first time all about please don't let my mom smell my father's Miller Light's on my breath. You know, because I, I knew what that would do to her. 

[00:03:00] Natasha Combs:  in the last year I've lost six of my friends to drug overdoses. And a lot of it comes down to just treatment, not being accessible, the care that they need, not being accessible 

[00:03:12] Angela Kennecke: We're going to start off this podcast by hearing from experts on substance use disorder, including one of TikTok's favorite addiction medicine docs. Dr. Elizabeth Zona is board certified in both anesthesia and addiction medicine. In addition to seeing her patients at her clinic, she also tries to reach the younger generation through TikTok. 

[00:03:31] Dr. Elizabeth Zona: The number one thing to talk about when we want to prevent, hopefully, drug abuse is feeling. We need to talk about how we feel. We need to process those emotions.

Because every time we have something, even if it's small trauma, when you're little, it feels so big. And if we're told that's not important, or you shouldn't feel that way, or stuff it and forget it, we stuff it and forget it. And what we hear is, I'm not important. My feelings aren't important. Whether we mean that or not, that's the message we send our kids when we're like, you know, stop, don't just, don't say that.

Don't ever say that again. No, tell me how you feel, and I would be mad about you telling me your feelings. It may be, you know, it's okay to feel however you feel, but it's what we do with that that's important. You know, it may not be okay to express it by punching your brother, but if you need to punch something, punch a pillow.

So, I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist or a child psychiatrist, which I respect them greatly, but tell you what, I've read a lot about those topics, just with the neurobiology of addiction. and I think that's reall is.

[00:04:36] Angela Kennecke: Dr. Zona says not tal isn't the only thing that There are many other factors involved, such as traumatic experiences, a family history of addiction, and your environment. 

[00:04:54] Dr. Elizabeth Zona: Exposure, right? So, sure, you know, sure. Environment, right? So, being around. One of the mistakes that we as a country made is that we thought, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s when, you know, everybody was coming out with the pain is the fifth vital sign and everybody needs their pain treated, whether it's a stump toe or what, you know, we always have to ask about. pain and make sure and there are true chronic pain syndromes. I don't dismiss that at all, but there was a movement like a pain movement in this country where more narcotics was considered better fueled by the pharmaceutical industry. It was fueled. It was paid for. You know the whole story. 

And so I think that when we're dealing with that, we shifted the whole narrative. But what they found out is that they used to think before that, that if you didn't have the gene, and if you didn't have the trauma, or you didn't have the bio psycho social risk factors, They thought that you couldn't get addicted and they see in retrospect they were blatantly wrong because you had people with no risk factors put on OxyContin three times a day or however many times who within weeks were physically dependent and often within a month or even less were addicted.

[00:06:06] Angela Kennecke: This year we've interviewed several people, including Jessica Chumley whose substance use disorder started with prescription painkillers following surgery are another health challenge. In these stories, we glimpse the human side of struggles, reminding us of the importance of compassion and understanding rather than judgment.

[00:06:26] Jessica Chumley: So I graduated from high school. I went on to Texas Tech University. I got my bachelor's there, partied a little bit, but still nothing crazy.

Got out of college, had an amazing job opportunity back where I was from. I would say for three years, I made a lot of money, did what I wanted, flew around, traveled for work, I was in sales, excelled easily. And I had that surgery in 2015. It was actually a very small surgery, and then two weeks later, I had just switched jobs, by the way, so my first week in this new job, I all of a sudden come down with these crazy fevers, and they're up and down, and they're super high, and I ended up being septic from that little small surgery, and that put me in the hospital for quite some time, I had a rib removed, I had a bone infection from this, blood infection.

It was, it put me on a path forward with narcotics and being prescribed them legally that really set, you know, everything else into play.

[00:07:35] Angela Kennecke: At 25 years old, in the midst of building her path to success, Jessica found herself with an unexpected challenge. It all started with the oxycodone prescribed by her doctor. What began as a solution for her pain Evolved into a battle with addiction over the course of several years. Jessica relied on these prescription pills, gradually increasing her dosage to fight her growing tolerance to make money. She then started selling her prescription pills and buying heroin, which was much cheaper. Eventually, her doctor began to sense something was wrong. 

[00:08:12] Jessica Chumley: He'd been seeing me for years. I don't think he was a dirty doctor. I think this was the time of like the oxy era where maybe in the beginning he really thought he was doing good. I was by all means successful and normal and I don't think that he did anything. Purposefully, but he gave me a drug test randomly, never had given me one before, and of course, nothing's in it but heroin. And so, he pulled my scripts, and that was that. 

[00:08:42] Angela Kennecke: You know, I never really could understand heroin to me.

I think also it's partly my age, it just sounds so scary and horrible. And when I found out after my daughter's death that that's what she'd been doing, I was like, how could this be? So can you explain to me, or someone who just doesn't really understand how you graduate to heroin, which I think happened in my daughter's case, I know it started off with prescription drugs like Klonopin and Xanax.

And then Eventually led to heroin and also she was a marijuana user at a young age, which is, sets your brain up as well. But tell me and tell our audience for people who don't understand, how do you get to that point of heroin? 

[00:09:22] Jessica Chumley: And it's interesting. I go back and forth. A lot of people talk about marijuana as a gateway.

I hated smoking weed. It would get me so high, but it's funny because once I was doing heroin, I could do enough heroin to kill an elephant. But I had zero tolerance and I never liked smoking weed. It did the opposite. Instead of pull my anxiety down, it was raising it. So I was like, so I just never was into that pain meds and the anxiety med.

I think they did for me. I think they'd calmed my brain. A little bit, which is maybe why I liked them, but with anything, no matter what it is, you develop a tolerance. And so while heroin, you know, if you would have told me in 2015, when I was initially prescribed pills. A pill doesn't sound scary, heroin sounds petrifying, and to me, that was like, oh my God, heroin.

It was something I never in a thousand years would have expected to do, but it was way cheaper than pills, and you could sell the real pills, like my prescriptions, for thirty dollars a piece, where heroin you get, I mean, a smaller amount, and it was way cheaper than having to do, you know, the abundance of pills that at that point I was having to do.

Um. 

[00:10:35] Angela Kennecke: Thankfully, Jessica got help, but not without battling substance use disorder for years. Still, she's considered to be one of the lucky ones, with hundreds of Americans dying every day from illicit drugs. With fentanyl in the drug supply, just one pill can kill. On the podcast, we've sadly talked to too many parents who know firsthand that that's true.

Bridget and Tom Noring's son Devin was an athlete, honors student, and musician who made a deadly mistake. He bought what he thought was a Percocet from a drug dealer through Snapchat. It ended up being 100 percent fentanyl.

[00:11:16] Tom Norring: I seen him on the bed laying in his clothes. 

I could immediately tell something was wrong. His color was off. I ran over and I grabbed him, his hand and his face and he was cold and I knew at that moment that it was already too late. Couldn't process at the moment what had happened. 

[00:11:36] Angela Kennecke: Right. Having been there. I am so sorry. It's so traumatic and it's your brain can't register.

[00:11:42] Tom Norring: My very first thought was this was a medical issue because of his headaches. He had been struggling with them since high school. He was an athlete. He thought maybe something was going on with his head. So he wanted to get an MRI just to make sure because he would get blackout migraines. 

[00:11:59] Angela Kennecke: Sure, I could see how you would think it was like a brain hemorrhage or something.

[00:12:01] Tom Norring: Right. And he was afraid to even drive his car that he had just bought. Because he didn't want to crash. 

[00:12:06] Bridgette Norring: I don't want to hurt anyone, ma. 

[00:12:08] Tom Norring: That's what he said. So he was riding to work with me cause he was working with me for the, the summer, uh, my company before he was getting ready to go to college. He had just graduated.

So he would save up money. He bought this car and then he didn't want to drive it because he was afraid he would hurt somebody or crash it. So our first thought was, this is a medical thing. And then it dawned on me that. Hey, y'all, you know, dial 9 1 1 something's wrong and I could hear my wife come in and my first thought was to try to shield her from that.

I just tried to stop her in the hallway from coming in. 

[00:12:41] Angela Kennecke: Did you go in the room? 

[00:12:42] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. Yeah, there was no holding her back. That's how I was too. A police officer tried to stop me from going in. I just remember I crumpled in the corner. Yeah. Like help him do something. Yeah. 

[00:12:56] Angela Kennecke: Because do they know the time of death now, or they don't really know?

[00:12:58] Tom Norring: No. But sometime during that. Sometime during the night, probably around one or two is what they had thought. 

[00:13:04] Angela Kennecke: So obviously you're in total shock. Out of the blue, your child's dead in his room. I mean, nobody would want that nightmare to play out in their home. Did you get any kind of answers right away?

[00:13:16] Bridgette Norring: While we were sitting there waiting for law enforcement and the medical examiner to process the scene with COVID, I mean, they showed up in hazmat suits. So that made it even more like, what is, what is going on? We had to keep our family outside. We didn't want them to see Devin like that. But during that time, I had reached out to one of Devin's friends via messenger.

And I said, you know, Devin's gone. And now in hindsight, what a way to tell your friend, but I couldn't speak. I couldn't.

[00:13:45] Angela Kennecke: It's not like you're thinking straight during those first early moments.

[00:13:49] Bridgette Norring: I couldn't, I couldn't even make a solid sentence. So he came back a few minutes later and he said, I'm hearing that Devin and so and so bought a Percocet on Snapchat.

[00:14:02] Angela Kennecke: So one of Devin's friends because you had text him to let him know. 

[00:14:06] Bridgette Norring: And I read that message like four or five times. And I responded. I said, you can't die from taking a Percocet. And he said, Oh, yes, you can, Ma. If it has fentanyl in it, you can die. And I remember turning to the law enforcement officer standing at the door and I was like, my son was murdered.

My son was duped. Like, what is this? 

[00:14:31] Tom Norring: We didn't know what fentanyl was. We had to figure it out. We'd never heard of it. Like, what is this? 

[00:14:36] Angela Kennecke: But even parents who are well aware of what fentanyl is can't necessarily protect their loved ones from the number one killer of Americans under the age of 50. Lisa Gennosa is a physician assistant. Her husband is a physician. Now, despite their medical backgrounds, they say they were not prepared when grappling with substance use disorder and mental health challenges.

[00:15:00] Lisa Gennosa: We're dealing with a different level of, you know, young adult and children with their mental health and . Trauma disorders, things like that. we're beyond where it was 20 years ago. And I think mental health and even primary care is just now catching up, trying to catch up to really the demands and the needs of individuals with substance use disorder and mental health. We, I work in the every day. I work in family medicine, but I'm on the front line of . I feel like many times we're sometimes the very first, first individuals that people will come to and say, I'm having a problem. Or family members will come to and say, I need some help. 

don't know where else to turn. I live in a more rural community and really there's, just not the resources at all in, rural, areas. And so they come to us and I wasn't prepared in school. My husband wasn't prepared in school for the the onslaught of, mental health and substance use disorder in this country right now. And so when you take that back 10 or 15 years, don't think the preparation was there or the capabilities quite yet. 

[00:16:06] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I think you're absolutely on target and I know physicians don't get that kind of training. maybe a day, right? day. And for other healthcare professionals, it's maybe an elective. So we need to really focus on that because you're right, you are on the front lines and you have to know what to tell people and where to direct 'em and how help 'em.

[00:16:26] Lisa Gennosa: yeah, what to do? 

Where are the resources? what medications we can use, things like that 

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[00:16:30] Angela Kennecke: At Emily's Hope, our goal is to shine a light on substance use disorder, aiming to break down barriers of stigma that so often prevent those in need from seeking help. Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries. is a highly respected psychiatrist. specializing in addiction care. She's also a valuable member of our Emily's Hope Board of Directors.

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[00:16:53] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: it's just challenging because there's so much stigma around it.

There's so much choice that people find ingrained into it, like family members saying this is a decision. Why can't you stop? You just had 28 days of treatment. What was it even worth? And that's so hard. Patients don't have that support because it takes more than 28 days for that healing to happen. Just like when you break an arm, it takes more than a few weeks. Gosh, what was the break? Was it a simple fracture? Was it a compound fracture? It could take months. Brain's no different. Your brain's a much more powerful organ. It takes time. 

[00:17:27] Angela Kennecke: Well, we always think it's about our thoughts or our will. Right? 

[00:17:30] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: It just comes back to that. 'cause I think it's just a natural human, human, an old fashion way of thinking things.

Yeah, I think so. 

[00:17:35] Angela Kennecke: A dated, yeah. Way of thinking of things 

we talked about how addiction is a disease of the brain. And I think that there's just so much misconception about that still to this day. The public generally doesn't believe it's a disease. They think it's either a character problem or a matter of willpower.

Can you explain it? In a way that people can understand how substances take over the brain. 

[00:17:57] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: I can. With addiction, our brain is an organ just like any other organ. And when we start drinking, consuming drugs, using whatever it might be that has a habit forming potential, what happens is the progression is it's a biopsychosocial pattern or the route that that takes.

First and foremost. The drugs or alcohol start to take over your brain, your central nervous system, everything else kind of still seems to be going okay. Psychiatrically, mentally, you know, depression hasn't really started to show or manifest in anxiety, even insomnia. You're doing okay, well then that psychiatric kind of side of things, you're not sleeping as well or you're maybe feeling anxious 'cause you're going in and out of intoxication and withdrawal.

And that drug, that pathway deep in the limbic system really of your brain is starting to take over. Last but not least, friends and family say, Hey, Joe, or whoever it may be, what's wrong? Like, something's wrong. You're not showing up for work. You know, and that's the social piece. So the biopsychosocial.

Well, the problem, or what people don't see with this disease model is Recovery occurs in the opposite direction where socially people start to look better. So people come to my 20 day residential treatment center and, you know, I'll say, Hey, you've been here for a couple of weeks. You look great. You look awesome.

You must feel great too. And patients will look at me like, am I supposed to say yes? And really the answer is no, it can take, I mean, months, years, really before someone's back functioning where they were before everything happened. Years, years. And that's something that we call post acute or protracted withdrawal.

So socially, people start to look better. Then kind of comes next is the psychiatric kind of side of things, anxiety, maybe depression starts to lift, sleep starts to normalize again. But then there's your brain. That's the biological side of things where the drugs or the alcohol have so deeply ingrained themselves into your, really your biology that it takes time to heal.

[00:20:01] Angela Kennecke: I've heard it takes up to 24 months for the brain to heal from drugs like meth or heroin or opioids. And we only treat people for 30 days. I often say that's dictated by insurance companies. Where did that model come from? And would it be too cost prohibitive to really treat people for like a year and a half to two years?

[00:20:21] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: Gosh, really good questions. I'm not sure. What I can say from my experience is when patients are coming in and say it's a 28 day stay, I'll even get pushed back from insurance companies at like two or three weeks sometimes and saying, Hey, does this person really need to be there? And I will think, my goodness.

Where is this coming (MUSIC UP) from? 

[00:20:42] Angela Kennecke: At Emily's Hope, we're offsetting that cost through treatment scholarships. We've raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to help hundreds of people. Check out our website, emilyshope. charity, to see how you can help. Natasha Combs was one patient who says her life was forever changed thanks to an Emily's Hope treatment scholarship.

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[00:21:02] Natasha Combs: and I was about halfway through my treatment. 

[00:21:05] Angela Kennecke: You were in treatment. 

[00:21:06] Natasha Combs: I was in treatment, actively in treatment, and my therapist. I was like, Hey, I need to talk to you. And I was like, what's up? And they were like, so there's something weird going on with your insurance.

And I was like, okay. So I just happened to call my insurance and they were like, your policy was canceled. And I was like, for what? I had spoken to my employer, I had told them what I was doing. I had been very clear with them. They had told me that they would cover the insurance premium upfront and that it would just be taken out of my paycheck when I returned that we would figure it out not to worry about it.

And so I reached out to one of my coworkers and I was like, Hey, like, did you guys switch insurance? Like, what's going on? And she's like, no, but we all noticed that your name was taken off of our email list. And I was like, oh. Okay. So I reached out to my boss and my boss was like, unfortunately, you're no longer employed here, they Had met as a team the supervisors and had decided that because they hadn't been upfront, During my addiction that I could no longer be employed there. That like my addiction just didn't went against their values. 

[00:22:19] Angela Kennecke: And you found out you were fired while you were in treatment?

[00:22:21] Natasha Combs: Yeah, so I was officially fired 10 days after I went to treatment. nobody told me I got a letter in the mail. And when somebody had brought my mail while I was in treatment, all the letter said was that I was no longer employed. And so when I had reached out to them, they were like, unfortunately, with your addiction.

And I explained to them, I was like, I, I'm making those efforts. I, I am moving forward and you guys wouldn't have even known if I didn't tell you. and I talked about how I thought things like that were protected and they were simply like, unfortunately, you no longer work here. that was the end of it. I had actually talked about leaving leaving treatment, 

[00:22:58] Angela Kennecke: leaving treatment. 

[00:22:59] Natasha Combs: I was 17 days into my treatment, into 28 day treatment. I had done all of the really hard work. I had gotten clean. I was testing that the drugs were outta my system but I hadn't gotten to the part where I got to focus on me. I had done all the hard work of repairing the relationships, doing the steps, things like that. But I hadn't gotten to the point of how I was going to be clean outside of treatment.

And I went to my therapist and I told him that I didn't think I could be there anymore because I couldn't afford it. so after talking to a couple people is when Emily's Hope Scholarship was brought in and they covered that. Payment of my insurance premium to allow my insurance to continue to pay for that final month that I was in treatment. 

 just knowing that I don't have that financial burden and that. You know, I have a roof over my head and things like that is life changing and it saved my life.

I think so often when we talk about addiction, we're looking at each person as an addict, and I think it's time that we start looking at people as people and to know that it could be, you know, your brother, your sister, your neighbor, your doctor. Could be struggling with something and knowing that there's programs whose sole purpose is to help people.

Is is truly life changing.

[00:24:10] Angela Kennecke: As Natasha said, Substance Use Disorder knows no boundaries. We've interviewed everyone from small town kids, to celebrities, to professional athletes this year. All who have struggled with addiction. 

Chris Herron was living his childhood dream of playing in the NBA. But unfortunately, a battle with opioid addiction changed his dream into a nightmare.

[00:24:33] Chris Herren: You know, when I was playing for the Denver Nuggets, I was introduced to OxyContin. They weren't really selling much of them on the streets. I was getting them from an acquaintance that was receiving his from someone who had terminal cancer. So they weren't very popular then.

I never knew anything about OxyContin until they released in 2002, 2003, when it started to become. focused on pretty heavily in the media. I had taken Vicodin and Percocet, you know, I've had multiple knee surgeries, wrist surgery, shoulder surgery. I was just one of the unlucky ones who liked the feeling, you know, and my wife takes a Vicodin and she gets sick to her stomach.

She wants nothing to do with it. I find it comforting in a sick way. Your body and brain respond differently. Which is so true of anyone who has this disease, right? And so the switch though, I'm thinking about the switch from an upper of cocaine to a downer, more of an opioid. Something that, you know, is an opposite effect.

Did you like both feelings or did you prefer the opioids? I preferred the opioids, but I transitioned out of that down feeling pretty quickly. I mean, you've got to remember, I was playing professional basketball. And I was taking a thousand milligrams of Oxycontin a day. Oh, wow. I think the most I ended up getting up to was probably around 1, 600 milligrams a day being a professional basketball player.

So you know, that's following that routine, that schedule, the physical nature of the sport. So I wasn't the opioid user who kind of just. Head down and nodding out. I was get up and go. That's sort of amazing to me also that you could continue to excel at your career at the same time. I wouldn't call it excelling.

I think that was, um, I started going downhill, right? I was at the peak of my career, rookie year, Denver Nuggets, and all of a sudden Oxycontin ended up in my world. And you know, if you look at my career, I started with the Denver Nuggets and I ended up playing professional basketball in Tehran, Iran. 

[00:26:40] Angela Kennecke: This year, I've also had the privilege of meeting others who are dedicated to making a difference in our nation's substance abuse epidemic .During the DEA Family Summit in Minneapolis, I had the honor of sitting down with DEA Special Agent in Charge, Justin King, who leads the Omaha Division with more than 20 years of experience.

He shared valuable insights into the challenges and efforts to address our country's drug crisis. 

[00:27:07] Justin King: we used to see a lot of false compartments. We still do see a lot of false compartments and they put those vehicles and they put it in. One of the things that's really started to challenge is the fake pills are so small you can hide. quite a few of them in a small area. And so we've really seen as society has evolved to where people are more used to having things delivered to home. well, and we see drug trafficking organizations that exploit that, you know, parcels, we see. a lot of drugs through the, whether it be the postal system, FedEx, UPS, we also see, people becoming creative with how they, advertise and, connect with customers where it is. And so it continues to be something that is unique and these models get passed around from one city state to state to another. 

[00:27:53] Angela Kennecke: So they might start with, like, a social media platform, but then people are on to that, maybe. And so then they switch to something else, like what? Like what's been else? 

[00:28:01] Justin King: They go to an app, like, you know, they can go to Snapchat, or they can go to Signal, or WhatsApp, or the next one, and sometimes these are proprietary, only a few people have them.

We see emojis being used as, you know, instead of some people saying a slang word, now they have an emoji for what something looks like. And it, sometimes will be geographically centered. Sometimes it will be somewhere else that you see that. our administrator likes to say, the drug deal that used to be done in the back alley is now being done on a cell phone.

[00:28:33] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. right. And what about the tunnels? I thought that was interesting, the tunnels that were shown today at the summit.

[00:28:39] Justin King: So, we noticed, the tunnels have really grown, and that was a big thing with the Sinaloa cartel, especially out in the California area, and we continue to see the tunnels.

[00:28:48] Angela Kennecke: underground.

[00:28:49] Justin King: tunnels underground. Digging tunnels underground, and you know, the border is them through. Yeah, and tunnels, we actually have, I think in San Diego area, there's tunnel groups that work tunnels and things.

[00:28:59] Angela Kennecke: But once the drugs make it into this country, however they make it, if it comes on ship or a plane or through a tunnel, it's my understanding that about 80 to 85 percent of those are being dealt by Americans to other Americans, you know, they get to Americans who sell them to other Americans. Is that 

[00:29:15] Justin King: I don't know the exact percentage, but I will say that you will see at some point that that cartel member or whatever, it will be handed off to somebody in that area, and you usually will see your local dealers. But what you do see in a lot of your cities is a distributor that's for, you know, and so they're a more mid level dealer, and then you'll see that street level dealership get out there. And when it goes hand to hand, a lot of times you see that. But I don't have the exact percentage.

exact percentage. 

[00:29:39] Angela Kennecke: Right, right, but so it's not just a problem that we have with Mexico or the cartels, right? We problem in this country with people... Selling it.

[00:29:48] Justin King: Oh yeah, we have challenges with that. And I think one of the things we've seen the last few years, maybe is a lot of your opiate, people who have a disorder for that, addicted to that. Then they're dealing to help fuel their addiction because they need to find money. So, it kind of has changed the game a little bit with how we look and different dealers.

[00:30:08] Angela Kennecke: the game a little bit with how... So, do you feel like the DEA has enough resources, is doing enough to curb this problem, or it seems like it's just getting worse, we have more deaths than ever? 

[00:30:17] Justin King: Well, we're has enough resources, is doing something we would like to have and we're always speaking with department and they're going up to the hill to work on that to see more resources. With that said, what I can tell you is we're continuing to evolve with the threat and we have the people we have in place and we're continuing to address that and prioritize and throughout the United States and the world every day. That's what we're doing is trying to prioritize so we can go after those biggest threats. 

[00:30:49] Angela Kennecke: I also had the opportunity this year to make two trips to Washington, D. C. to shine a spotlight on America's growing drug crisis. During the first trip, I met with some of our country's top leaders, including the U. S. drug czar, the director of the CDC, second gentleman Douglas Emhoff, who's married to Vice President Kamala Harris.

On the second visit, I joined thousands of others who have felt the pain of losing a loved one to illicit substances. One of the parents I met was Gary Carter. He shared with me the difficult moments and lessons learned as he watched his son battle substance use disorder, find recovery, and that amidst the hope and joy suddenly die from fentanyl.

[00:31:33] Gary Carter: The stigma is definitely strong. like I said, until the last year of my son's life, I didn't understand you know, what the addiction was really all about. It took me that long, sadly, to then realize that he had to be stronger than I ever had to be, just to get another day.

And I can remember, this is something I'll take to my grave. Thankfully, nobody heard me say it, but I know I said it. didn't say it to my son. He wasn't even home. But the first time I ever heard he had to be revived with Narcan. And then refuse to go to the hospital after. And you know, this is after some time with the struggles and just not getting it and stuff. And I can remember saying to myself, just get it over with so we can all move on. And as we all know, we don't move on. right? And I'm, glad he never heard it, I know I said it.

[00:32:20] Angela Kennecke: don't you think though that that is somewhat human nature to feel the point where you're so frustrated? the only answer seems to be like, it would be easier. it's. I think natural for your mind to go there. And I'm not saying you ever wanna think that or you feel bad that you thought it, obviously, but it seems to me like just get to a point of desperation. Absolutely. 

[00:32:43] Gary Carter: Absolutely 

[00:32:44] Angela Kennecke: Yeah.

[00:32:45] Gary Carter: and of course anybody will, I'm sure will tell you. That I would take that life back,

[00:32:50] Angela Kennecke: Yeah.

[00:32:51] Gary Carter: going through that every day just to have 

[00:32:53] Angela Kennecke: Yes. if, you could understand what that loss was really like. Right. because you don't get it when you're in the midst of dealing with all of the chaos the frustration. mean, I, I had that thought, but I do remember thinking . , my daughter is dead. the daughter I had is gone. And that was when she was still alive. I felt like I'd lost my daughter, you know? 

[00:33:16] Gary Carter: right, 

[00:33:16] Angela Kennecke: I think we've all felt, you know, that way. But yes, once you know the pain of true devastation of losing a child, would, would take them back. You would go through everything again, again, and again and again if you had to. it's not until you've experienced that, that you really know it. Right, right, right.

Over the past year, we've not only heard devastating stories and heartbreak, But also from those who in the face of immense grief have risen above. They've turned their pain into purpose by helping others or raising awareness about fentanyl or substance use disorder.

We've also heard inspiring stories and gained invaluable wisdom on living a fulfilling life, regardless of age or circumstance. Consider Dr. Gladys McGarry. At 102 years old, she has weathered the storms of cancer, a divorce, And at nearly 70, the death of her daughter.

[00:34:10] Dr. Gladys McGarey: Her life was so important to me. She was such a, a dynamic person. She still is. I call it going down memory lane, you know, because her presence activates me to this day.

I know that Annie is still somewhere. She used to live in Glen Ellyn. I could call her and talk to her. Now I can have dreams. I can actually conjure up and work towards who and what she was, and realize that that is alive. No one can take that dream from me. I can see her in my, what I call my memory lane, as a three year old trying to tie her shoelaces, and I went to try to help her, and she wanks her little ponytail and stomps her foot, and she says, I'd rather do it my own self.

And I said, Oh, okay, and I back off and after a while, when she couldn't quite get it, she puts her head back and wags her ponytail again and she says, If you ever help me, help me now. Now, you know, those are real memories that I can laugh and enjoy what I had with her. I can spend my time grieving for what I didn't get as she grew into her 70s and so on. And that's very painful. I don't want to spend a lot of time doing that. I would much rather spend my time enjoying her energy and who and what she is to this day. In my mind, she's still alive. She passed through the doorway that we call death into another dimension, but she doesn't stop existing. 

My parents the same. They don't stop existing. That energy is still alive and nobody can take that away from us. 

[00:36:20] Angela Kennecke: You're right. We're all made of energy and the energy has to go somewhere when we die, right? It has to live. Yeah. Do you think that your outlook or your way, you mentioned a choice in there. You have a choice. You have a choice to think about these happy memories of her, the things that you cherish in your heart, or you have a choice to dwell on what you've lost and what you don't have, her growing any older with you.

And that mental outlook certainly Has had to have helped you throughout your entire life, and I think live to be 102 and to be as on the ball as you are and still writing 

[00:36:54] Dr. Gladys McGarey: books. 

What is something worth living for? I, through the years. have asked patients, do you have a reason to live? What is your reason for living?

What's your life purpose? Or some kind of a question that seems appropriate at the time. And a lot of people have never thought of that. You know, life's hard and you get stuck in places if you allow yourself. You don't need to get stuck in those places. Those are areas that are painful. To me, it's like if I cut my arm, and have a scab there, and spend the time picking at that scab and saying, this thing hurts, it will never heal.

But if I look at it and say, oh, hello, and do, treat it the way it needs to be treated, sooner or later, I'm going to lift up my arm and look at it and say, oh, hello, scar. I know who you are. You know, it's that kind of, of a reality. That we hang on to what it is that we really, at that moment, are experiencing.

And there's the whole attitude of not allowing ourselves to get stuck with something that just doesn't matter. You know, somebody says something nasty and we take it in and say, oh, that hurts me so bad. And we really can hang on to something like that. And sometimes they're mean things. Or we can just let it go.

My sister and I found this out when we were in our 90s. We were talking to each other and we'd do this and we'd talk to each other and we'd do that and we'd do that. Finally, we both stopped at the same time and we said, why do we do that? We both do it. And then we looked at each other and we said, who did that?

And we said, Oh, mama did that. And then we said, why did she do that? It was a specific movement. And we both said simultaneously. Oh, kuch purwane, which in Hindustani means, oh, it doesn't matter. And we realized that we had spent 90 years plus taking what was important to us and at the moment making a choice as to whether that was important and taking it in or whether it just simply wasn't important and letting it go.

Hold your hand up, let it be in your palm of your hand, and then drop your hand and let them fall as like petals on the water. It's a Tai Chi movement I found out later, I didn't know that, but that's what it is. It's the actual accepting the pain that comes to us and that we all have time when we have pain.

There is a time, express it. But there's a time to just plain let it go. It just ain't worth hanging on to. 

[00:39:59] Angela Kennecke: Right. And even sometimes we want to hold on to the pain of losing someone, right? We want to hold on to that because we feel like we're going to lose the person if we don't hold on to the pain. 

[00:40:08] Dr. Gladys McGarey: Yes. And what part of that person do you want to hold on to? While they were in pain and you were suffering with them? Or the joyous, amazing part? Of their life when they were either growing up or some aspect of their life that made your heart sing and made their heart sing. You know, hang on to what you want to hang on to.

[00:40:34] Angela Kennecke: Well, you are so wise, but yet I hear you saying you're still learning things in your nineties. You're still realizing things realiz, that it's never too late to understand some of these principles and to come to terms with things that happen into your life to have that acceptance. And to let it go. 

[00:40:52] Dr. Gladys McGarey: It's a choice.

It really is when you think about it.

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[00:40:55] Angela Kennecke: We hope that you make the choice to turn your adversity into strength and your pain into purpose. Always remember your resilience runs deeper than you may realize. We also hope you found this episode enlightening and empowering. We want to thank you for your support and for spending your valuable time with us.

 If you found this episode helpful, please consider giving us a five star review and share it with your family and friends. Thank you once again for being part of our journey. Here's to a wonderful 2024 and as always wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey..

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