A conversation with a trailblazer making naloxone more accessible and saving lives

With fentanyl being the number one killer of Americans under 50, it’s more important than ever to have easy access to naloxone, which can reverse opioid overdoses. In fact, naloxone has saved the lives of tens of thousands of people.

Today, on a heartfelt episode of Grieving Out Loud, we are privileged to have Justin Phillips join us—a remarkable woman at the forefront of making naloxone more accessible. Her unwavering mission stems from personal tragedy; she endured the devastating loss of her son, Aaron, to a drug overdose.

Justin’s advocacy has left an indelible mark, leading to an Indiana law named after her son that increases Narcan accessibility. Beyond this legislative milestone, she founded the non-profit Overdose Lifeline and has received multiple awards for her tireless and life-saving efforts.

Justin and Grieving Out Loud host Angela Kennecke have also attended several of the same advocacy events, including being invited to the White House to meet with some of the nation’s top officials tackling the drug crisis. You can read about Angela’s experience at that meeting on her blog. 

We hope this episode leaves you more informed about our nation’s drug crisis, more inspired to make a difference and brings comfort to those who have lost a child to drugs.

Transcript

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Drug overdose deaths have reached an epidemic level. Fentanyl is now the number one killer of Americans under the age of 50, and it's more important than ever to have easy access to naloxone, which can reverse opioid overdoses. In fact, naloxone has saved the lives of tens of thousands of people.

[00:00:20] Justin Phillips: No one talked to me about Naloxone for Aaron. No one talked to me about, potential for overdose.

[00:00:25] Angela Kennecke: On this episode of Grieving Out Loud, I'm honored to be joined by Justin Phillips, a woman who has been at the forefront of making naloxone more accessible.

Her mission? To prevent others from experiencing the heartache that she has after her son died from an overdose.

[00:00:43] Justin Phillips: We have a culture that believes a substance, 

whatever form it is, is a solution 

to, what's going on with us.

And that's what I think we really get away from somehow, is something outside of me is gonna fix me.

(MUSIC UP AND OUT)

[00:00:59] Angela Kennecke: I'm Angela Kennecke your host of Grieving Out Loud, and the founder of EMILY'S HOPE. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope this episode leaves you more informed about our nation's drug crisis and inspired to make a difference.

Plus, we do want to bring comfort to those who, like me, have lost a child to overdose or fentanyl poisoning.

 (MUSIC TRANSITION) 

[00:01:20] Angela Kennecke: Well, Justin, it is so nice to see you again. Thank you for coming on. Grieving out loud.

[00:01:25] Justin Phillips: Thank you, Angela for having me here it is Good to see you again too.

[00:01:28] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, we ran into each other a couple of times as we've both been doing advocacy work in different areas of the country.

[00:01:35] Justin Phillips: Yeah, it's unfortunate we, um, have to belong to this. Some people call it a club. I don't really like that word, but, we share this common difficult challenge in our life. But that, I'm also grateful for the people I get to meet, like you. Mm-hmm.

[00:01:49] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. I always say the same thing. I hate it that we meet under these circumstances, but I'm so happy to know you, so,

[00:01:56] Justin Phillips: yes.

[00:01:56] Angela Kennecke: and it's wonderful to see you again. We last encountered each other in Washington d c on International Overdose Awareness Day.

[00:02:03] Justin Phillips: Yes, we did.

It was a beautiful day,

actually.

[00:02:06] Angela Kennecke: It was a

day, 

beautiful.

Mm-hmm. 

right, We were invited.

I wrote a blog about it. If people wanna go to that, we'll leave it in the show notes. But I wrote a blog about my experience with getting to go to that meeting and they call it at the White House, uh, White House grounds and meeting with some top officials. and you were there and you were really a leader in that aspect, do you think those kinds of meetings, those kinds of gathAarongs, can make a difference?

[00:02:32] Justin Phillips: I think they make a difference because I think we get. Recognized. I think our faces are seen. I think our beautiful loved one's faces are seen. I think if we stop seeing people's faces that we forget that it's happening.

[00:02:50] Angela Kennecke: Right, and one thing that I really want to see is politics or candidates kind of taken out of this

altogether because we have to work with whatever administration is in office. I went to some rallies a couple of weeks later and some of them were . Specifically almost camp, really, really campaigning for one candidate.

And I just thought, that's not what we want either. We just, we wanna be able to work with whoever is in office.

[00:03:15] Justin Phillips: It shouldn't be a political issue. Unfortunately, people use it on their political platform. It shouldn't be a political issue. Every candidate should understand harm reduction and every candidate should under canand, necessary resources it's gonna take to get us out of this crisis. But people are always gonna politicize issues. Angela, unfortunately, you know that.

[00:03:36] Angela Kennecke: Right, and I think also it's easy for some candidates or some political movements to almost prey on those who have lost loved ones because you're really vulnerable, especially, you know, in those early months and years, you're really vulnerable.

[00:03:52] Justin Phillips: 100%. I think there's. an unfortunate narrative around fentanyl that's existing right now that is being used to prey on those that are really vulnerable, and, and I, hate to see it happening.

[00:04:07] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. I agree with you on that. Well, let's let our listeners know a little bit about how you got into this line of work that we're, both doing now. let's start with the story of your son, Aaron.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:04:21] Angela Kennecke: Justin says the story of her son's battle with substances began before he was even born. Research reveals that substance use disorder can be inherited and influenced by complex interactions among multiple genes and the environment.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:04:37] Justin Phillips: the part of the story. That I think has value to the whole trajectory of Aaron's experience was that myself and Aaron's father have both been in recovery from alcohol use disorder way before our children were born. our children were raised with the knowledge that it's possible genetically to have substance use disorder. And they were also raised with the knowledge that recovery is possible, right? they were exposed to recovery and, and all the things. 

 (music up) 

[00:05:07] Angela Kennecke: Despite being aware of the danger of drugs and his genetic predisposition, Aaron decided to try opioids, which eventually led to a full blown heroin addiction when he was 20 years old. 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:05:21] Justin Phillips: When

Aaron told me he was using heroin and could not stop on his own, I didn't understand opioids in much the same way the rest of the country didn't understand opioids. And so I did what I thought was best and we followed the that many people follow with treatment and that type of thing. 

And, 

[00:05:40] Angela Kennecke: Do you think that Aaron suffered from substance use disorder because of his genetics or his environment or a combination of those things?

[00:05:48] Justin Phillips: I think it's impossible to know. I think, Aaron had a personality that, was a little more of a risk taker.

He was also very sensitive. Very, very, very sensitive, very empathic, sensitive. He had codine cough medicine as a toddler. Who's to say that didn't change his, neurotransmitters?

from an early age he had lots of orthopedic injuries. He was a very talented athlete. I don't know, Aaron if it was chicken or egg, what I do know is that opioids are highly addictive,

and very difficult to stop.

[00:06:23] Angela Kennecke: I mean, you could be describing my daughter in many ways because she also was a risk taker and was sensitive and an athlete. So you know, you've got these kids and it's just, so once they start down this road as a parent, it is just so overwhelming and difficult.

[00:06:40] Justin Phillips: Mm-hmm. Yes. It's so difficult, and this is what I say to people all the time, you know that the behavior. Comes with substance use is very illogical

and it's harmful to the people that love and care about the individual.

And the solution is not simple, right? I can't just take you to the doctor and get you an antibiotic, you get better. Actually. It might take you seven times to go to treatment before you get better, you have to really want it, and you have to be really disciplined, and it's just very enormous, right? It's very complex, very complex.

And 

[00:07:16] Angela Kennecke: right, 

[00:07:17] Justin Phillips: we have a culture that believes a substance, 

whatever form it is is a solution 

to, 

what's going on with us.

And that's what I think we really get away from somehow, is something outside of me is gonna fix me.

[00:07:32] Angela Kennecke: right, right. And often it is, um, . . Yes, it's people are self-medicating when they're using substances. And I think you're right. I have parents contact me every day, what do I do? What do I do? And if the answers were easy, I always say, my daughter would still be alive. Your son would still be alive, right? If we had easy answers.

When someone is suffAarong from this disease of the brain is just so, it's just so, so difficult. And I wish I could offer somebody a pat answer or a simple solution.

[00:08:03] Justin Phillips: I know. Me too, 100%. 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:08:06] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately for Justin, the answers certainly weren't easy. Despite getting her middle child into treatment, he still died from a heroin overdose at age 20.

[00:08:17] Justin Phillips: (MUSIC UP) was just actually, um, 10 years, on October the ninth. Which is, really unimaginable for me most of the time. 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:08:25] Angela Kennecke: Over those 10 years, Justin has learned a lot about grief. She's been using that information to help others, even becoming a grief counselor.

[00:08:41] Justin Phillips: (MUSIC UP) You know, grief, not to use the word again, but it's true. It's very complex and it's it's been a very interesting journey. What I knew from the beginning that I shared with my two surviving children that we, have to process this. we have to figure out what works best for us because 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:09:00] Angela Kennecke: One of the ways Justin processes her grief is through journaling. That's also been recommended by other grief counselors who've been guests on this podcast.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:09:09] Justin Phillips: I can put my thoughts down on paper and then I can leave them there. I have written to Aaron from almost the very beginning. I have 10 years worth of journals of talking Aaron and I sometimes do better.

Like my measure of better is that go to the cemetery less, right? But write less than I did in the beginning, but I always. I would 

address it to Aaron in various ways. Dear Aaron, or dear 

baby boy. and today I'm mad at you or today, I miss you, or can you please show up?

I believe 100% Angela in signs. I look for them and I'm desperate for them, and I ask for them, and they bring me comfort. I've been learning a lot about how grief is really a form of a traumatic brain injury

how I need work on retraining my brain. there is some level of PTSD involved and I need to help myself. process. Like I said, I've really just got to continue to process and be, proud. Be graceful with myself. If all I did today was get up and brush my teeth and brush my hair and show up in the best way that I could, that is a big win. And I'm not always, you know, willing to accept that. But it's the truth, right? days are better than others. And that whole cliche thing about grief being like waves is 100% true.

and there are the waves that pull me down. Then there are other waves that lap at my feet. and I know, that despite the fact that it's been 10 years, and maybe it's better 'cause I go to the cemetery less. It's never gonna not be a part of me. It is a part of me. I'm not gonna be ashamed of that. I'm gonna carry it as, as part of the journey. Aaron is a part of me and his loss is a part of me and, and part of who I am today.

[00:11:05] Angela Kennecke: Well, I would agree with everything you said. I wanna dive into it a little bit deeper. I've had a grief expert, a thanontologist, on the podcast a couple of times, and one thing he strongly recommends is writing to your loved one. Keeping that conversation going and you just sort of did that instinctually or is that something you picked up from somewhere?

[00:11:24] Justin Phillips: I did. I've always been a journaler, so it's probably because I always had been a journaler. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:30] Angela Kennecke: does Aaron ever answer back?

[00:11:32] Justin Phillips: You know, honestly, he has answered back a couple times. Yep.

[00:11:36] Angela Kennecke: What does it matter if you find comfort in that sign? What kinds of signs do you get from Aaron?

[00:11:42] Justin Phillips: So it started out with the simple signs, the sort of universal signs, the cardinals and the butterflies.

was a significance for me of a feather. I had a cousin when, um, 

The day Aaron, passed 

away was walking on a labyrinth, and she reached out to me and said that when she was walking the labyrinth, that feather floated down.

And so for me, feathers, which I know is, a fairly common universal as well. then I read this book, and forgive me, Angela, I cannot remember the author, but called Signs. written by a median. And she describes in the book, how to ask for your own signs for your loved ones specifically, and how to be very specific.

If you wanna be specific. If you want it to be a purple elephant, by all means, but then you have to watch for it. So I did that last year, on Aaron's day of passing, and I decided I would ask for skateboards and Skateboarders are not as common as when Aaron was an adolescent, although it coming back. So I did, I asked for skateboards and in all the random places in the terminal of the Dallas airport, not in the terminal, like for the the gate before you get through security, but actually through security escape order,

Hm 

[00:13:02] Angela Kennecke: mm-hmm.

[00:13:03] Justin Phillips: And so, Those are, are the things for me. And sometimes it's very subtle, right?

Sometimes it is just the cardinal in a random place, but it's okay. I'm gonna take it

cause I need it.

[00:13:16] Angela Kennecke: right. 

right. and 

[00:13:18] Justin Phillips: I need to believe, and I, I do believe that, that, is around. 

[00:13:22] Angela Kennecke: And the other thing that you, I think you hit the nail on the head. 'cause I have said this since the beginning. Since, Emily first died, I felt like I had a traumatic brain injury. I felt like I. I couldn't remember things and I I mean, there were just things that I couldn't do. And, uh, it's taken me so long and even my memory and I now I'm five years older than I was , you know, when she died.

But, think it has anything to do with age, um, memory has started to improve a little bit, but that is one thing I noticed I did. I felt like I wasn't me anymore. Something had happened to my brain. and my heart.

[00:14:00] Justin Phillips: Well, there's some real true scientific evidence around, the fact that there is something called brain fog. Grief brain fog.

you know, our brain is hardwired for survival. That's the first thing our reptilian portion of our brain does for us, is it keeps us safe, when we're threatened. And this is, something that we don't have experience with, we do. when we're faced with a situation where we have nothing to pull from, In the portion of our brain where we store our memories to help us know how to respond to keep ourselves safe is sort of why we feel so lost. Because we don't have any information to go on. We can walk through the things people tell us to walk through in the beginning, you know, planning the funeral.

But we did all of that stuff. At least for me, Angela, you know, in a complete fog. I can see

myself there, but I'm not physically

[00:14:56] Angela Kennecke: Right. . Right. I think that would be the case for most people, right? so too. Mm-hmm.

And you talked about, you know, trauma is such a big word now and everybody uses the word trauma and everybody says, oh, I'm traumatized, or I'm, it's bringing back my trauma. And I think sometimes I think people really don't know what trauma is until they've been through the death of a child.

But you talked about like rewiring your brain. One of the things I always worry about because I. Talked to, middle to high schoolers. I, bring Emily's story to a lot of kids about, I think it's been about 16,000, 17,000 students by now, 

[00:15:29] Justin Phillips: wonderful. 

[00:15:30] Angela Kennecke: Maybe more. And I always talk about the day that she died because I really want them to listen.

Right. And that really captures their attention. But at the same time, I feel like I'm re-traumatizing myself by bringing myself back there. It's, it's hard for me, like some people want me to do two or three presentations in a day if I come to their community and I'm like, no, no. But how do you kind of deal with that trauma and rewire it?

What's worked for you?

[00:15:57] Justin Phillips: Well, I think that that has really legitimate accuracy, Angela, that when we relive. The event that has caused, you know, us to experience trauma, that we will be re-traumatized. I have to know my capacity is only this much and I have to do self care before and I have to do self care after, and I have to be willing to say no. I compartmentalize pretty well around all of it. it still doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.

[00:16:29] Angela Kennecke: Right, 

right. 

[00:16:31] Justin Phillips: if this is what we're choosing to do, right, to affect change by sharing the story, then we just have to that self-care before and after. 

Mm. 

[00:16:39] Angela Kennecke: Yes, you're absolutely right. That's part of the reason my husband drives me to almost all of my speaking engagements. 'cause I'm just wiped out afterwards as if I had run a marathon or something like that, 

[00:16:50] Justin Phillips: Well, there's a lot of adrenaline

involved in reliving something,

[00:16:56] Angela Kennecke: right, 

yet, I feel compelled to keep doing it. Because if just one of those kids listens, it just gets through to one of those children, you know?

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:17:04] Angela Kennecke: After her son's death, Justin also channeled her grief into preventing future tragedies. She formed a non profit named Overdose Lifeline that seeks to help those suffering from substance use disorder. She's been instrumental in making naloxone, a medication that can reverse opioid overdoses, more accessible.

In fact, her advocacy work even led to an Indiana state law named after her son.

[00:17:28] Justin Phillips: (MUSIC UP) oddly enough, I was working for the state of Indiana at the time, managing federal highway traffic safety dollars. My background is injury prevention so some of the staff in my office thought maybe I'd wanna go this round table where. The police and other community stakeholders were talking about the increase in heroin, and I learned about Naloxone, which is overdose reversal drug.

Many people call Narcan. And it, it shocked me and disappointed me that, didn't know about Naloxone. No one talked to me about Naloxone for Aaron. No one talked to me about, the potential for overdose. So

that's really how overdose Lifeline was born. Increase access to Naloxone and raise awareness and education because if I didn't know as a fairly well educated person, then what did the rest of us not know?

[00:18:21] Angela Kennecke: And I think one of the things that you've done since Aaron's death is work in this nonprofit world, in this world of addiction and of overdose and fentanyl. And sometimes I think, 'cause I'm doing the same thing, I'm just five years behind you. I think it's sometimes a heavy way to live, right?

To live in this space. Where you lost someone in this way and you're constantly immersed in the issue.

[00:18:47] Justin Phillips: I agree. I =was talking today with a staff member about how I really used love to cook and don't seem really have the bandwidth by the time I'm done with

my day. And it's probably because what you just said, right?

Um, it's also very rewarding and I don't know what else to do, Angela, and, and I'm sure that I can't do it forever. But this is the path that I've been given. This is the hand, as we say, that I've been dealt and I want to make a difference. you know, originally I thought increasing X to naloxone. the law in 2015, allowing Naloxone to be available without a prescription in Indiana. I thought that would make the world of difference. And then the increase in fentanyl and everything came along and we're still just losing way too many people all the time. but people call me and say they save someone and, and people do get that second chance. And so I think that's what really keeps me going.

And we have some other programs, with kids and pregnant women who are getting a second chance that I think also Keep me going. 'cause what I really wanna do is, is make it better for other people. ' ' cause the situation, you know, that you and I have ourselves in is pretty Right.

[00:20:06] Angela Kennecke: Right. We don't want anyone else to go through it. And I do feel like sometimes you see this increase in, overdose slash fentanyl poisoning deaths, and it feels like you're rowing a boat with a hole in it, right? Like you

100%. Feel like you got this naloxone out there in Indiana, so you've had it over the counter for years.

We just got it over the counter because of the new federal law. So I'm just working to get it dispersed across my state so many years behind you, you know, it just seems like sometimes the solutions are . Right in our face and a bit obvious, but the time it takes to get there can be frustrating.

[00:20:45] Justin Phillips: It's very frustrating and it's a very stigmatized, shame filled situation. the individual who suffers for the family that's affected. People just judge it. And, we're still a long way from getting rid of that.

Originally when I set up the nonprofit, the vision was about, substance use disorder being treated like any other chronic disease. And until we get that same sort of level of respect, you know, we're still gonna probably be rowing the boat with a hole in it. we, know, the hole maybe is smaller,

[00:21:20] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I know we're not there yet. I just, um, met two young women about the same age who received our Emily's Hope treatment scholarships while they were in treatment. We helped subsidize treatment at, uh, . Facility that's connected to a health system and it's medically assisted treatment, medically assisted detox, those kinds of things.

And both of these women were fired from their jobs while they were in treatment. And if anything told me that the stigma still exists. I mean, it's that situation. We were able to help them stay in treatment, thank God. But if you were being treated in the hospital for heart disease or diabetes, would you be fired from your employer?

Would anybody do that? would they be able to get away with it? 

yeah. 

[00:22:02] Justin Phillips: they wouldn't get away with it, I'm guessing, right? This is the only disease where if we have a setback, right? Some people call it a relapse. I prefer to call it a setback, we kick someone out of treatment as opposed to adjusting the treatment plan.

Right.

and our approach just, you know, is pretty archaic.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:22:18] Angela Kennecke: An archaic approach that has left hundreds of thousands of people grieving the loss of a loved one who could not overcome substance use disorder. If you or a loved one is struggling, please head over to our website, emilyshope. charity, for a list of helpful resources

 (MUSIC UP) what is different now for 

you, you know, 10 years later as opposed to maybe the first few years after the loss of Aaron?

[00:22:42] Justin Phillips: I, think I mentioned in some ways I'm better, right? So I don't feel the need to go to the cemetery. 

[00:22:48] Angela Kennecke: Well also, don't you think that our children kinda live in our hearts after a certain point that going to the cemetery doesn't mean as much anymore because really they're in our hearts. Right. That's how I feel. I guess maybe you don't feel the same 

[00:23:01] Justin Phillips: Yeah, I =think in the beginning that was the connection I had. I, I would agree with you. And then I realized that that connection can be with me and I don't have to physically go there.

[00:23:12] Angela Kennecke: Right.

[00:23:14] Justin Phillips: I needed to have that experience, right? I didn't need, someone told me, well, Justin, you know, Aaron's there.

that helpful. All those things people say

aren't actually not helpful. though I know their intention is good. I hope that I life and don't take it for granted now. that I've walked this journey for this length of time. I hope I'm better friend, daughter, sister, mother partner, because I value life more. sometimes Angela. The permanence is so difficult, and I know you know this,

Mm-hmm. 

the farther away the permanence is, sometimes it's a little harder.

I get that.

Last night, we were talking about favorite foods of our loved ones in our support group, and I asked myself, do I know what your favorite food is in? Maybe you didn't have a favorite food. Then somebody else mentioned that they're writing things down that they think they're forgetting about their child, and I really had to pause.

Am I forgetting things? And I don't think I am. I can still hear Aaron. I can still see Aaron. Will I be able to do that forever? I hope you know,

Aaron's 30, not 20. You know, that stuff is hard.

[00:24:42] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, 30. And then, and then it's the loss of, the future spouse and grandchildren and everything that could have been, should have been, you know, I think that's also something that comes up as milestones come up, right? As you see people, your son's age going on with their lives and doing those things that we expected our children to do.

[00:25:05] Justin Phillips: Yes, 100%. I'm fortunate to have surviving children.

Because, you know, I know people that don't,

I know people that have lost two children

this disease, which is unbelievably devastating to me.

[00:25:19] Angela Kennecke: I've had some of them on my podcast, and I even had one woman who lost five of her 12 children in this way. . And I know I, it's unfathomable, but it happens to people.

leads me to a question about stopping this from happening you know, there's lots of people that wanna just have some succinct answer and we know there isn't one.

But what do you think the path is for this country? And I know you've been involved in advocacy and policy and all of these things. What do you think the path is for this country to get out of this? To end this epidemic,

[00:25:56] Justin Phillips: I honestly don't know. I think it's a multitude of

paths. I don't think it's one path. I think we have, a mental unwellness crisis

Mm-hmm. 

aren't addressing. I think we have, perhaps a value system that is too hard for adolescents to live up to, and we've got ourselves on this wheel.

We can't get off. have made a substance, a solution, and outside of me, and I'm guilty of it, Angela, I, I mean, If I'm feeling uncomfortable, let me find some macaroni and cheese, or what can I buy to, 

[00:26:39] Angela Kennecke: Yes. we all are right. We all are. 

[00:26:42] Justin Phillips: instant gratification, right?

and, 

[00:26:44] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:45] Justin Phillips: so a substance a solution is our problem. How can we change that? We as Americans, you know, consume 80% of the world's opioids. we put ourselves here,

we can get ourselves out, but we have to stop, relying on a chemical a solution and figure out what's the other solution for, for all the different reasons why we medicate.

You know, some people do need medication 'cause their brain chemistry, but. We need to stop the reasons that we seek substance and then the, demand will go away.

Right.

It's about It's not about supply.=

[00:27:26] Angela Kennecke: It is a hundred percent about demand. It's also about greed, and I always remind people when they start talking about China and Mexico, and yes, we know where these things originate from. We know where they come We know how they get here. We know where they're being made, but once they're here, We've got Americans selling to other Americans, about 85% of the drugs being dealt in this country.

And I, I keep saying that , because I want people to wake up and listen to what, you know, that have fellow Americans killing fellow Americans. That's what's happening. In my daughter's case, there were no Mexican cartel members charged with a crime, but there were three Americans who all went to federal prison.

she wasn't the only person that died from their actions. So, , I wanna remind people of that because it's a demand and it's also, this is so many people's way to earn quick cash, quick money, easy money, and also feed their own habits, you know, which is cyclical. 

[00:28:25] Justin Phillips: 100%. 

[00:28:25] Angela Kennecke: it You said, and I love that you said, I don't really know because that's a really honest answer because somebody had a, an easy answer, it would be done by now. Right.

[00:28:34] Justin Phillips: Well, right. You know, I went to the gas station this morning and I bought a pack of, tic-tacs and a pack of gum for my mother, and it was $10. Angela.

[00:28:44] Angela Kennecke: Wow.

[00:28:45] Justin Phillips: I got in my car and I thought to myself, how can anyone survive? 

So if I can't afford, and I haven't been raised in a family with resources and I haven't been privileged with resources and the street, and this person says, if you sell this stuff, you can have this much money. Like, Why would I not do that I don't know any better. Right.

And, and I'm not, not excusing the drug dealers, I'm not excusing the drug dealers at all, but some of them are doing it because they have their own substance use disorder disease. So so hard, so hard.

[00:29:29] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. And we need more hands on deck and less stigma. So if there were less stigma, we'd have more people taking action and we'd have more resources, to fall back on to try to end this epidemic. 

[00:29:43] Justin Phillips: Yes. Which is why we have to hold onto those little wins.

[00:29:47] Angela Kennecke: That's right. right. 

[00:29:48] Justin Phillips: we have a camp program, Angela, I dunno if you're familiar. it's a camp for children ages nine to 12 have a family member affected by substance use disorder. So these are one of the programs that we have at Overdose Lifeline that give me all that hope, right? Because kids are nine years old, for example, who are completely innocent but don't understand why their parent has chosen. Drugs over them. Right? And it sets them up to be in a pretty difficult situation, and potentially to use substances later in life. We do this year round with these kids for free. Uh, and one of the camp directors told me yesterday about one of the campers who, the grandmother or something said she doesn't have any friends. And now the grandmother reports that she has friends at camp and she's making friends at school.

Oh. 

So we are directly changing little path and her some tools she might not have gotten. And those are the things, right, that help sort of counterbalance. The heaviness around the magnitude and the challenge of this complex situation.

[00:30:59] Angela Kennecke: Right with our Emily's Hope K through five education curriculum. I was able to speak to some students in third grade after they got it last spring. in one classroom where several kids were dealing with parents. Or a relative who suffered from substance use disorder and what they learned, put it in context for them, like they didn't understand it before.

I thought, wow, that's amazing that now they have some context for what their relative is going through. That helps 'em understand that it's a disease of the brain, that their brain has been overtaken by the substance and it's not them. , you know, and, and they're not a bad person.

that is so valuable to learn at a young age.

[00:31:39] Justin Phillips: Oh, I remember the profound impact it had on me when someone said, can love you, even though I don't like some of the things that you do. And I was like, really? Okay, so it's the same sort of concept. You know, behavior of your parents has nothing to do with how lovable you are young person and you, you and your existence is not a reflection of their choices and their disease.

[00:32:06] Angela Kennecke: Right. Right. Well I love that sentiment. And on that note, we can wrap up the podcast. I really wanna thank you for coming on and I have a feeling we're gonna run into each other some more. So ,

[00:32:18] Justin Phillips: yep. I agree 100%. Thank so much, Angela, for doing this work and for the K through five curriculum and just having the podcast and. Helping people with, processing through grief. 'cause it's so challenging. So I

commend you 

100% and I'm so grateful.

[00:32:36] Angela Kennecke: well right back at you for the work you've been doing for twice as long as I have been doing, so I really appreciate everything you leading by example.

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[00:32:50] Angela Kennecke: We appreciate you taking the time to learn about one of the top killers of Americans, fentanyl. If you found this episode helpful, please consider giving us a positive review. That's five stars and sharing it with friends and family. Join us again next week as we sit down with one of the most popular podcasters in the country.

Megan Judge has seen a lot of success throughout her career and she's married to a Hollywood actor. Now, she speaks out about the trauma she survived, starting at a very young age.

[00:33:20] Meghan Judge: We're here for such a short time on this planet. There's gotta be a reason why these things happen, and what you do with the aftermath is what really matters

[00:33:30] Angela Kennecke: Hear Megan's advice for rising above life's challenges in next week's episode of Grieving Out Loud. Until then, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey

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