A New Strategy for America’s Addiction Crisis

In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, hear from the new CEO of Shatterproof, a national nonprofit working to reverse the addiction crisis. Pam Jenkins recently stepped into the organization’s top role after more than three decades in public health.

Jenkins is widely recognized for creating bold, award-winning health campaigns that break through the noise. She led the team that introduced the Red Dress as the national symbol for women and heart disease, a campaign that reshaped public awareness across the country.

In our conversation, she shares her top priorities as CEO, what concerns her most about the current addiction crisis, and how she plans to use her platform to drive meaningful change in a fight that impacts millions of Americans.

Explore Shatterproof's Treatment Atlas here. 

Related Episodes:

• Investigative Reporter Uncovers Abuse and Profit in Rehab Programs
• Life-saving scholarship: How Emily’s Hope treatment scholarship gave a woman her life back
• Shatterproof founder’s life mission after losing son

Behind every number is a story of a life cut short, a family shattered, and a community devastated.

They were...

• daughters
• sons
• mothers
• fathers
• friends
• wives
• husbands
• cousins
• boyfriends
• girlfriends.

They were More Than Just A Number. 

Transcript

0:07

It is the greatest public health challenge of our time and recognizing how. stigma can affect how people hear our messages. Whether they hear our messages and whether they feel safe and comfortable is, is one of the most important things. In this episode of Greeting Out Loud, I'm joined by the new CEO of a national nonprofit working to reverse the addiction crisis. Pam Jenkins recently stepped into the top role at Shatterproof. After more than three decades in public health, Jenkins is widely recognized for creating bold award-winning health campaigns that break through the noise. For example, she led the team that introduced the red dress as the national symbol for women and heart disease. I worked on hiv aids and that was another, uh, health issue where there was a lot of stigma attached to it. And it was very, very important in all of our communications, um, that we not allow hiv aids to become. Marginalized, stigmatized, Hear about her top priorities, what concerns her most about the addiction crisis and how she plans to use her platform to drive change in a fight that impacts millions of Americans. 70% of people who are directly impacted are working and they're in the workforce. Many of them are not telling their employers because they don't. They don't trust that that information will be held as medical information. They worry that they'll be fired. Today's conversation matters because what we're talking about affects families in every community. Whether you've lost someone to addiction or love, someone who is struggling or simply want to understand why our system so often fail people when they need help the most. This episode is for you. My guest is Pam Jenkins, the CEO of Shatterproof. Shatterproof is a national organization working to change how America prevents. Treats and supports recovery from substance use disorder. And Pam brings more than 30 years of experience in public health. But what makes her voice so important is her focus on turning science policy and awareness into real world, real world change that actually reaches people. And Pam, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Hi Angela. So happy to be with you. Thank you. I know that you have spent your entire career working to help the public understand health risks before it's too late and, and pushing health systems to respond better. You know when lives are on the line. I know about the red dress campaign that brought national attention to women and heart disease, and I wanna talk to you a little bit about apply, applying that same kind of strategic thinking to addiction. that is so stigmatized, misunderstood, often buried or ignored. How can you bring some of those things from your public health work that you've done all these years into the field of substance use disorder? Um, thank you for that. I, to me, the fact that there is so much stigma. uh, drug and alcohol addiction is, um, it helps shape everything that we do and how we think about messaging and reaching people. Um, for 10 years back in the 1990s, I worked on hiv aids and that was another, uh, health issue where there was a lot of stigma attached to it. And it was very, very important in all of our communications, um, that we not allow hiv aids to become. Marginalized, stigmatized, um, because it was too big a problem. It was, it was the number one killer of 18 to 45 year olds. And there's a lot of parallels that I see with working in addiction. This is the number one killer of 18 to 45 year olds. It is the greatest public health challenge of our time and recognizing how. stigma can affect how people hear our messages. Whether they hear our messages and whether they feel safe and comfortable is, is one of the most important things. Um, I wanted to to mention when I first took this position. A number of people that I have worked with over the years shared with me family stories that I had never heard and people that I had worked with in some cases for decades, but who had a child was in treatment, but they hadn't shared that with any coworkers. Um, or I might have known, but I didn't really have much information and the willingness. To share that with me because I, they felt safe because I'm in a position now where that's really my mission as a public health leader. Um, just underscored for me how many families are out there in similar situations, not telling even their own families or sharing this with their coworkers, um, because of concerns and sensitivities about being judged. Um, what will people think? Um, and so that, that has been, I think, part of the driving force for how we think about programs. How do we think about connecting people in authentic ways and helping them feel safe? That's so interesting, so much of what you said. I wanna unpack a little bit of that. So, just yesterday I was sitting down with a prominent member of my community who obviously knows the work that I do day in and day out, but just learned about how substance use disorder I. their family. After I've known this person or known of this person for years. So you're right, people keep it in the shadows. And I always say that shame keeps people sick and it keeps us from really addressing substance use disorder as the public health crisis that it is. And you mentioned public health because I think what many people believe is that addiction is a character flaw. It is a a moral failing. And I have been working for. Seven years now, and I know Shatterproof has been around at least that long, probably Yeah. 12 years. 12 years. I, Yeah, Gary Mendel, the founder a few years ago, and he has that personal story, but yeah. to change this conversation. And it's funny that you brought up hiv aids because since the beginning I have compared this crisis to the AIDS crisis. I'm old enough to remember, uh, when people were writing fake obituaries, Yeah. always say it took. An like an army of angry mothers marching in Washington, making the AIDS quilt, you know, just Right. more from our lawmakers and our society. Yeah. I saw two things that I thought were interesting in that time that are applicable to what's happening today in, um, in ubstance disorder. And one is, the role of families. And you just mentioned mothers and. Um, that's so key because addiction is a family disease. It profoundly impacts parents part because the disease affects young people so much. Um, as I said, number one killer of 18 to 45 year olds. And, and it just really rips at family dynamics that relationships and families rally around to sort of try to find solutions and answers and often. Treatment takes a long time. Right. But, and there's relapses and, so it's just a long journey for a lot of families. And I, I think with hiv aids, there was some of that same dynamic because it was young people, because there weren't solutions, there were, wasn't a cure, back at the time. And, um, and people really, you know, cared about, um. Working together in ways to, to address that crisis and saw it as a crisis too. Um, I think the second thing, and I'm seeing some of that today, is the, is the business community, uh, seeing this as an issue they needed to address as well, and. In substance use disorder, 70% of people who are directly impacted are working and they're in the workforce. Many of them are not telling their employers because they don't. They don't trust that that information will be held as medical information. They worry that they'll be fired. Many workplaces don't have policies, um, but some do. And there's like an increasing awareness among businesses that they have to figure this out, that this is, especially in some industries like construction, one out of five workers has a substance use disorder and. Being able to have clarity around what people can say and not say, and, and your ability to, um, talk to your employer about the fact that you're getting treatment is, is really important. And I we're hoping that one of the things shatterproof can make a bigger difference in impact in the year. And the years ahead is getting more workplaces to treat people with compassion, to recognize the stigma, to set policies in place, and to use the workplace as a way to educate families about substance use disorder. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. I can tell you that Emily's hope, one of the things that we do is we provide treatment scholarships for people. And we've done that since 2019 with uh, health system, Yeah. we have helped two young women who both got fired while they were in treatment. One of those scholarship recipients is Natasha Combs. She struggled with substance use disorder after a surgery where she was prescribed painkillers, coupled by the fact that she was battling extreme grief from losing her brother, mother, husband, best friend and grandmother. All within a short period of time. Eventually Combs realized she needed help and checked herself into a treatment facility just days after starting treatment. However, she lost her job and with it her health insurance. And I was about halfway through my treatment. You were in treatment. I was in treatment, actively in treatment. And my therapist is like, Hey, I need to talk to you. And I was like, what's up? And they were like, so there's something weird going on with your insurance. I was like, okay, so I just happened to call my insurance and they were like, your policy was canceled, and I was like, for what? I had spoken to my employer. I had told them what I was doing. I had been very clear with them. They had told me that they would cover the insurance premium up front and that it would just be taken out of my paycheck when I return that we would figure it out not to worry about it. So I reached out to one of my coworkers and I was like, Hey, like did you guys switch insurance? Like, what's going on? And she's like, no, but we all noticed that your name was taken off of our email list. And I was like, oh, okay. So I reached out to my boss and my boss was like, unfortunately, you're no longer employed here. They had met as a team, those supervisors, and had decided that because I hadn't been upfront. During my addiction that I could no longer be employed there that like my addiction just didn't went against their values. And you found out you were fired while you were in treatment? Yeah, so I was officially fired 10 days after I went to treatment. Nobody told me I got a letter in the mail and when somebody had brought my mail while I was in treatment, all the letter said was that I was no longer employed. And so when I had reached out to them, they were like, unfortunately, with your addiction. I explained to them, I was like, I am making those efforts. I, I'm moving forward, and you guys wouldn't have even known if I didn't tell you. And I talked about how I thought things like that were protected and they were simply like, unfortunately, you no longer work here. That was the end of it. Basically for being in treatment for substance use disorder and we covered their Cobra so that they could stay in treatment. I Wow. a right to work state and there are a few protections for this kind of thing, and I think employers don't really understand it. You think they would be supporting if somebody was going Right. I. for cancer? Or heart disease or, or you name it, you name it. A, a, um, an illness of the body. And really addiction is an illness of the body, but it's also an illness of the mind. So we don't really treat that the same as we do illnesses of the body. Yeah, I think it's, um, it's really a tragedy, right? That you can't tell your employer that you're. Being treated for a serious medical disorder and, um, and the worry that you could lose your job if they find out is, is really frightening. And, and it's, um, when you consider that 48 and a half million people in this country have a substance use disorder, that's all, that's millions of people who are having to hold this tight. And that doesn't help them get through recovery, it provides no social support. Um, to, to help them. And it just means people are struggling alone that that is, um, that just kind of accentuates the public health problem and the challenges that people face, the challenges that families face. also was just thinking about how a lot of people in the workplace are parents too, and they have, they have children and they're trying to navigate sometimes. There, the, you know, the challenges of having a child, especially an adult child who's going through treatment and, that sometimes requires time off. It sometimes can be mentally draining, and that's also information that often people hold very tight, don't share with the coworkers or with their supervisors. and for oftentimes good reason, I know of two mothers who lost their daughters, who both got fired, uh, because they couldn't perform their job in the weeks and months following those horrific losses. So to, to substance use disorder. So it happens on all ends of the spectrum. So how do we get businesses? To really take this issue seriously, see it as a health issue and not a, a problem with the person in terms of, and to Yeah. what they've put into that worker and wanna keep them. Right. part of that is building a better understanding in America around stigma, uh, around substance use disorder is, many people are impacted by it. then getting to the money, right? Businesses care about the bottom line and costs, and being able to help them calculate the cost of lost productivity, of turnover, of healthcare costs, of losing good people. And also just recognizing that people in their workforce they do have substance use disorders. Um, we can see the numbers. We know people are employed and they rather just not know and have situations that could become problematic or is it better to know and then work with that employer? I would su suggest it is far better to to know and help the employee and have policies in place do account for the possibility of relapse. What does that look like? You wanna make sure that person knows that they can get the time they need. To get through treatment, um, if they do relapse and that the employers, their job's still gonna be there. Um, so I, it's, it's a, it's a long journey. It's a lot of education that needs to take place, but sometimes getting down to the cost of not taking action, of not putting policies in place is what it takes to motivate a business to act. Right. I think it's, it's what you're talking about is a huge cultural shift that needs to take place and cultural shifts. Take time. I don't know how long they take, but they seem to take too long. Yeah. also just the motivation for employers when there's kind of a, a, there have been a lot of layoffs in the last year. There's a lot of people out there looking for work if they think they can easily replace somebody because there are so many people looking for work right now. I, I, I don't know. I mean, I, Yeah, uphill battle. it's tough. I have seen changes though in mental health. And many more employers now are creating more space for people who have mental health challenges. And we just know there's such a interrelationship between substance use disorder and mental health issues, um, that I think that creates at least some foundation for change that maybe wasn't in place pre COVID. Uh, also employers during COVID learned more about being an important channel for their, for their employees. Um. There's been, uh, I think a sea change in how the workplace has become a place of trusted information when it comes to healthcare. Uh, that was by necessity. Employers had to figure that out during COVID, and that also I think, just creates some more opportunity now for smart about how we position it and how we talk to businesses, about their role, both in the community in general, but most especially with their employees and their families. In addition to her background in public health, Jenkins has been involved with Shatterproof for years, even before the organization was officially founded. Developing some of the initial branding and strategy and um, and have advised the organization over time and then been on the board for the past five years. So I do have a long history with Shatterproof, um, although not in the role of, of leadership, but it's still, you know, even working with an organization. Volunteering and supporting is different from being in the trenches every day and working with families and board members. many people directly impacted. I think one of the surprises to me has been the lack of understanding the importance of finding quality care, uh, that the quality of care matters, and recognizing that when it comes to having a family member. Getting treated. It's, there's no great playbook. There's, there's no clear authority you can go to and say, help me through this. Right? Like, what do I do next? And what, what, what are the five things I must look for when I, when we look for where to get treated and. Again, because it's stigmatized, you may not be asking people because you wanna kinda hold that information tight and, so we've created a, like a dynamic in this country where millions of families are trying to, to navigate a very complex and confusing. System, and it's not even a, a system, right? It's, it's, you know, a, just a, a lot of different treatment providers, so what's the right way to get care? And primary care physicians aren't expert at all in what care looks like. And, uh, and how to both treat underlying mental health issues as well as the substance use disorder itself. Um, it's usually very sort of complex. And, and upsetting and, and so, um, the fact that we as a country haven't done more to push, uh, providers to adopt evidence-based care. The fact that we have not helped families more, I'm not talking about shatterproof per se, but just the public health and medical community in the, in this country helped people ways to get better. And it's very tough. I had a conversation early this morning with someone who was a former deputy drug czar of the United States, and, uh, he is one of the top experts on addiction treatment. He's done many studies. He works very closely with NIH and has for years and years, and his, um, he lost his son. To substance use disorder. And he said to me, if me, the guy who knows more about this than almost anybody in the country that, that we, that treatment ended in tragedy for their family. It was just underscored how hard this is. when I'm watching some of the coverage of Rob Reiner and family and, and where some people are, are blame to parents. their son's challenges, health challenges. And it's just upsetting to me because we wouldn't do that for anything else. Right. And we know that's a family that has worked very hard to find good care and who, um, was still challenged by, by helping ending in the most tragic way. And it just, to me, also underscored. hard it is and how much more support people need when they're going through some of the most challenging times of their lives. much more support. People feel terribly alone. You're right. They're afraid to even ask for recommendations. have very little training, if Right, on substance use disorder, so seeing your family doctor, they may have had. Uh, one day on substance use disorder, if that, in their medical training. So right. know, there's no organized, uh, system really. Anybody can hang up a shingle and call themselves a treatment center or, um, there are brokers out there looking for families where they get. It's a money making business for many. In fact, during a previous episode of Grieving Out Loud, I interviewed an investigative journalist who found out a treatment center was sending patients to work at a chicken processing plant for no pay. That's just one of the shocking realities. Investigative reporter Shoshana Walter uncovered in her national investigation into court mandated addiction treatment. I kind of just stumbled across this treatment program that was being utilized by courts in Arkansas and Oklahoma to send people instead of incarceration, you know, so these were people who had substance use issues, who needed treatment, and instead of getting a jail or prison sentence, these courts were sending them to this treatment program. A long-term program. Really great sounding in theory, but what I learned when I looked a little bit more into this program is that it had been founded by a former poultry industry executive, and it was sending people to work without pay at for-profit chicken processing plants where they were making. Chicken products for KFC and Popeye's and Walmart and Rachel Ray Nutri and that was predominantly their sole form of treatment in this program. That sounds insane. So this is a diversion program. Courts are sending people there and , sending them to jail or prison, and they're being put to work to produce chicken products for a for-profit company. That's correct. Without any other kinds of treatment or counseling or anything to go along with that. I can understand giving people a purpose, right? I can't understand not paying them, but Yeah, else that went along with the work. that was predominantly it. I mean, they were also required to go to church every weekend. And there were sometimes groups within the facility itself. For the most part, it mostly consisted of uncompensated work and the money was going to the treatment program and sometimes people were getting injured. They weren't always getting adequate medical care If you'd like to check out the full episode with Walters, just check out the episode show notes. We've posted a link, and while you're there, we'd appreciate it. If you take a moment to rate and review this episode, please share it with your friends and family. Together we can raise awareness, decrease the stigma, and make a difference. It is really atrocious. And, and when, when I talk to you about those treatment scholarships that we offer. We align ourselves with, uh, a treatment center that's affiliated with a medical health system. And we do that. We're very conscious about going about doing it in that way Yeah. it is just frightening what's out there. And at the same time, while I'm talking about all this and all the. Flaws in the system. No two addictions are the same, so Right, people maybe will respond to treatment in the same way, but really getting people evidence-based, medically assisted treatment, if it's an opioid use disorder especially, or an right. use disorder Yeah. so important and you've got 12 step programs that won't allow for people to be on medication. So the system is fraught. With inconsistencies and flaws and things that really hurt people and families and aftercare, that's a whole other subject where people fall through the cracks, sober living and aftercare, and we don't have really strong or systems, as you said, at all set up in this nation to address these We, we don't, it's, it's why we've put a lot of our time and energy into collecting data from treatment providers around the country. we worked about, I guess, eight years with, um, some of the leading professionals in the field as well as the major, uh, insurance companies. To come together to agree on principles of care, like standards, eight standards of care we would measure treatment providers against, and that payers would also pay attention to and track knowing that that was important for their own networks to have better quality providers. And, um, we collect that data in about half the, across half the country. We'd love to be able to, to collect more, but we're just, you know, funding constrained, but trying to do as much as we can in as many places as we can. And we have a number of states that are supporting us, um, on that as well. And then we collect the data, we sift through it, we vet it, and we then share that on a website called Treatment Atlas. Um. If you'd like to learn more about treatment Atlas, we've included a link in our show notes. Unlike some other treatment directories, providers cannot pay to be listed or ranked on the nonprofit site. It's a distinction, Pam says, helps ensure that the information remains independent and focused on quality of care. So you'll only see high quality treatment providers. Um. that comes with an assessment that we did with the Top Medical Society to help people know what's the right kind of care for the, for them. It's, it's like, can be so confusing and not everybody should be going to a residential that may not be the right kind of care for everybody. So I think wherever you can get tips and tools and resources, treatment atlas.org is one, uh, one of the best. It's really important and quality does matter and, um, and getting evidence-based care will make potentially a big difference in the outcomes. Um, but recognize that everyone, as you just said, everyone's different. People respond differently and. Um, and we can't think of this as, uh, substance, uh, use disorder as an acute, condition. You have to think of it as a chronic condition and there may be continued care. We wanna see people continue to get support through their recovery, um, to help lessen the chance of relapse. we will make sure we put a link to that website Great. and we'll Excellent. add it to our website, Emily's Hope charity Great. Thank you. so that people have the access to that and um, we wanna help. Pro, you know, get that out to people too. I think the other issue here are the insurance companies themselves, because we know it takes the brain 12 to 24 months to heal from many of these substances. It takes a long time. And insurance companies, if people have insurance, dictate that they can go for 28 days. Well, where did this 28 day, you know, rule come from? Obviously it takes a lot longer than that Yeah, from substance use disorder. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. Yeah, we do about these insurance companies making billions of dollars every year, but not offering the kind of treatment that people really need? yeah. I, you know, I think, uh, that may be, you know, an over sweeping statement. I, I do think, certainly in the Affordable Care Act, there's a fair amount of, uh, coverage. For people. Um, I look@healthcare.gov, the, you know, the a CA supported marketplace for 25 million people. Um, and even today it looks like the House of Representatives is not going to vote to extend subsidies, um, to make that affordable. Since our interview, the House of Representatives has voted to extend the expired Affordable Care Act subsidies for three years. However, the Senate has not taken up. The bill and efforts to reach a bipartisan agreement are currently stalled. And the estimate is at least a, at least a quarter of the people who currently have insurance that way are gonna lose their insurance, won't be able to afford it. worry about that. Like, what, what happens when you don't have the ability to even get basic care? Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's, it's not affordable for most people to get treated without having insurance co coverage. Um, it's, it's, yeah. read on in cases like a Medicaid, that 150,000 people are gonna be, know, denied access to treatment with cuts to Medicaid. So coming down the pike. Yeah, that's, it's gonna make it even more challenging. I, I, um, I know a lot of clinics and hospitals are trying to sort of figure out what is that gonna look like and how do they find ways to support people? States are trying to step up how they're gonna to support people once those cuts come through. Um, it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough in rural communities, I think especially, uh, 'cause there's less options for people. Um, I have a, a brother who's a cardiologist in a, in rural Idaho, and I know they're already looking at Medicaid cuts for potentially shutting down some of the, the hospital. And how do they get patients even transported to a hospital that's an hour and a half away. It's, it's, um, it's really tough. So yeah, these are, these are real challenges. Um, I think this is where we need the resolve of our nation, our nation's leaders, um, our state leaders, our public health officials, to understand the magnitude this health crisis, to do more, to support families, to do more, to make sure people have access to care, and not just to care, but to quality care. We have a big job ahead of us. Um. But this is, um, I think no one organization and no one group can really solve these problems. It takes the resolve of communities, of families, of pressure, put on our political leaders to do more. Yes, if you could wave a magic wand and shatterproof is a large or. Organization with National Reach. If you could wave a magic wand and have some priorities before Congress or something you'd like to see them do, what would that be? One is the quality of care, um, the systems and models for how physicians are reimbursed so that there is greater, uh, likelihood that people will get good care even through primary care. So we're working through with Congress, as well as states on some models like collaborative care to, to help people more affordable care and, um. To be able to get treated and screened earlier and treated uh, in sort of in more affordable ways. Um, I think I'm also very, very focused on stopping addiction before it starts, which is what can we do early in people's lives to better identify which children are at greater risk. be able to provide the community supports and support, again for families, um, and parents, for how to talk to your children, how to, to understand more about what some of the risks and dangers are that they face. and those are things that we can do both at the federal level but also at the state level by, uh, creating a greater sense of priority for how programs are funded. There's very little prevention money going right now, um, in any way that I think has real impact. Um, I'm hoping that some of the opioid settlement money does get better spent by states on prevention programs, but I do think there's more that we can do, uh, before people get to the point where they even need to seek treatment. 100%. I think we have to prevent these issues before they start. Emily's Hope has developed a K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum. We are now in six states before tens of thousands of students and working on contracts. To cover entire states, not just individual districts. And I have been preaching this since the beginning. I really feel that if my daughter would've gotten the entire message, and she seemed to get part of the message about substances, she got the methamphetamine part, but she didn't get all of the message about what even marijuana does to the developing brain and other substances. And I really think that could have made a world of difference. And we are so committed to this, but you're right. Trying to convince. States and communities to spend opioid settlement dollars on prevention. Even though prevention saves, every dollar spent on Oh, absolutely. 14 to $65 on the backend is a bit of an uphill battle for Mm-hmm. and I'm sure others who, but we think, we think our. Our curriculum is, is very unique and it's been shown to be very effective and is now evidence-based, but we are just, you know, working and working for this, and I just feel like every parent should be demanding it because you don't want your kid to even experiment in today's environment where Fentanyl and other powerful analogs are in the illicit drug supply. Yeah, I would urge people to ask their local schools, um, their school boards, the principals, what are they, what are they doing? How are they prioritizing? I think what you're doing is so essential. It is absolutely core to helping make sure our children grow up and can live full and fulfilling lives. And, um, we have to make this a priority. It's one of the most important things we can do. I think as a society and as the, as communities, I just don't, I think there's a lack, lack of awareness, lack of understanding, um, and even when it comes to, like marijuana, we have 23 states that have legalized marijuana. In many of them, the regulations and rules around protecting kids are very loose. They weren't really put in place there. You know, there aren't warning labels. They're being sold in their schools. In many cases, they're in gummy forms that are very attractive and appealing to kids and parents may not recognize how potent, um, addictive substances are for kids whose brains are still developing and. Why for a child who uses an illicit substance before age 15 is six, six and a half times more likely to end up with a substance use disorder. Um, it's just, it's frightening and it, but at the same time, it's empowering to know that if we can an intervention and do more to prevent addiction in those early years and during teen years. we can save so much money and help so many families, uh, and really, um. addiction before it starts and help children just not have to deal with substance, uh, use disorder, but it can actually help them in many other ways. Right. And be more likely to stay in school and have a good sort of self-concept and, um, be less likely to end up committing crime and other kinds of negative impacts in their lives. So many benefits for society and. All the research shows we've gotta start talking to kids at a younger age. We can't wait until middle school. In the case of my community, kids in second and third grade have been caught with vapes. You know, they probably got it from an older brother or sister or a parent or something like that in the home. But, Yeah. wait. And I think, and I think it's so important that. As organizations that we don't work in silos, that we work together. You started to touch on that a minute ago when you were talking, but you know, there everyone has a place in this space you have so many parents now who've been impacted by the deaths of their children due to fentanyl and other substances. That it Yeah. a more crowded space than ever, but I always say that we all have to work together to really facilitate the kind of nationwide and cultural change that I would like to see. Yeah, I, I agree. I mean, there is, we're not doing enough as a nation, so I don't worry for a second that there's too many, uh, organizations out there, you know, tackling these issues. Um. I, I think when you are addressing such a huge public health crisis, it takes a lot of different approaches and it takes system change as well as helping people day to day. I think how we've always thought about our work at Shatterproof is that we need to be changing systems for tomorrow. So what can we do to make the healthcare system work better for people to have? Uh, physicians and and other healthcare workers better trained, better equipped to work, um, with. with substance use disorders to have better quality care. So pushing forth and insisting that, uh, that insurers only work with providers that have shown that they have evidence-based approaches. You have to move the system. We have to be able to do that, but at the same time, we have people today that we need to help and support. And so balancing those two things out system change with helping people navigate, helping families navigate. The treatment system, um, has been that the balance that we've always tried to strike in the work that we do, but recognizing whatever we do, it's not enough. And so, and also trying to make sure we're not doing exactly what everybody else is doing. Like let's compliment each other and, and, um, help, you know, those organizations that are smaller, more local, um, succeed with their programs while at the same time creating some air cover on the national level. Yeah, I, I've been really grateful to work with many other great organizations across the country, often led by parents, not always, Yeah. led by parents who've been personally impacted by this crisis. But, I'm always really glad when that can happen and we, um, to have that camaraderie with one another. But Right. comes to 2026 and you're looking ahead, what are your top priorities for the new year? Yeah, my, my top priorities is to expand our quality work to create a bigger sort of consumer facing campaign. Um, we've been. I think very sort of narrowly focused on just data collection and getting out that data. But I think there's more that we can do to provide resources and support for families beyond the data of which are the best treatment providers. So you'll see, I think a little different type of communications coming from us around quality. We're going to build a bigger, um, program with businesses. Um, my vision is to see every major business in the country. Being part of a business council that supports substance use disorder, uh, education and policies in the workplace. Um, so that people who are working have clarity as well as support from their employers, um, as they go through treatment. And, um, and think lastly is we wanna train more healthcare workers and how to give better care. And so we've been, we've been working through pilot programs. What that looks like and how to provide great curriculum for healthcare workers. And we think there's an opportunity now to expand that in a much bigger scale and get every hospital and healthcare system in the country, better equipped to work with patients and understand that this is a medical condition, not a moral failing. Well I can't wait to see what you do with that. I think it's greatly needed and, uh, really appreciate all the efforts that you're doing leading shatterproof. Great. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. Look forward to supporting you in any way as you go forward too. Thanks so much. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. Join us next week for a new conversation. When I sit down with drug historian David Herzberg, he shares why he believes President Trump is making serious missteps and addressing the Fentanyl crisis. When we cut off that supply. We won't just have a, uh, this huge magnet sucking in new suppliers who, if history is a guide, are gonna be even worse than the ones that we already have. Join us as Dr. Herzberg takes a closer look at past substance crises in the United States. What went wrong, what went right, and what lessons those experiences may offer today. That's next week on Grieving Out Loud. But in the meantime, you can check out hundreds of previous episodes on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. You'll find a link in our show notes. Thank you again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.