BodyPolitic
BodyPolitic
Worth pt 2
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The second half of a conversation with Christopher Roman. Is it OK to have fear, as a performer, when choosing to push back against the paradigm? Christopher discusses this, describes some politically-charged works by lesser-known choregraphers, and offers suggestions to mobilize as a community, to create work that challenges the "system" as well as the audience to effect change.
Intro
CCWelcome to BodyPolitic, the podcast that explores the intersection between performing arts and political activism. I'm your host Courtney Collado and this is episode two, part two of my conversation with Christopher Roman. In the second part of our conversation, Christopher discusses more deeply the issues surrounding seeing bodies as currency and discusses in depth why some performing artists have fear about performing political art or expressing their opinions and how some dancers are contractually unable to become activists in their art. Lastly, Christopher offers some insight and suggestions about how to make the art that makes us move not just physically, but emotionally and as a community towards greater change. Beginning with a brief discussion of fear that performing artists experience when they consider pushing back against the paradigm that exists within performing arts is "Worth" part two; Episode two of BodyPolitic with my guest, Christopher Roman. Enjoy.
CRI don't begrudge those people who have fear. I'm not pointing of the finger and saying you're wrong or bad for having that kind of fear at all. It's just that there is still fear because the system and the institution still has power. The training of dancers, especially ballet dancers is this kind of obedience. There is always somebody in front of the room telling you not good enough, not strong enough, not thin enough, not fast enough, not sharp enough. There's always somebody telling you you're wrong. Always. And in that sense there there's always insecurity and uh, first and foremost insecurity about whether you're going to have a job next season or not. So if that plays a part in their decision making about how they can bring the company further in a mission to eradicate the ills of how ballet companies are run, I don't know what, what can happen if it's not 100% of the dancers unifying and saying "we stand 100% together. We're not intimidated and we're not afraid and you have to submit to our grievances, and what's gone wrong here cumulatively over the last 20 years."
CCThere's a whole snowball of all these social issues that've pent up over the past few decades, right? Ballet Is full of powerful white males who've come up among the ranks and think that their artistry or talent is enough to get them off the hook.
CRI, maybe I'm bucking the system against the patriarchy. Um, but I don't find myself in positions where I'm going to be tested by the patriarchy in that sense. But at this point, I don't care because enough is enough. There's so much homophobia, so much abuse and sexual misconduct against women in the field that uh, uh, maybe it is, it's just time to just start pushing back win or lose. It just doesn't feel like much is progressing in that vein.
CC...Disappointing doesn't cover it. No, it's abhorrent and it's all too frequent. I think you're right, the whole community, everyone, 100% has to push back and speak about it because, personally, I don't think I know a single female or male individual who hasn't dealt with sexual harassment or worse as, as a dancer... Or even non-dancers. There is this element of "it just happens." So sort of like, you know, "be thankful you have a job. Just deal with it as part of being human." But I think, as humans, we're better than that. The purpose of of this podcast is to help artists figure out ways to mobilize together for issues that we are passionate about. And clearly you're passionate about what you call the "body politic," which I think is great way to explain it, because what does happen to our bodies as dancers and how do we educate audiences to not support ageism or sexism because the audiences will continue to go to the ballet and buy tickets as long as there are performances. And I think more than educating the dancers, it's educating the audience, and then the global audience about what is and what is not okay. I mean money speaks...we're way off topic at this point, but I like where we're going, ...so how do you think dancers could mobilize audiences to help us make this shift around the way we see bodies and objectify performers in general?
CRJust make the work that speaks to them. You, you have to bite the bullet and make the hard work. I just saw last night - and here in Germany, I am once again privileged beyond belief - I was at the opening of a thing called the Frankfurter Positsionen and it really is an active sort of liberal democratic way of representing the ills of the world and representing them through fine arts, through dance, through music, and they commissioned works that are specific to, let's say, injustices in the world or crises or the nationalist populist wave. For instance, last night I saw a piece, um, from Leah Rodriguez, which was astounding. It was unbelievable. There were nine Brazilians, mostly from the favelas, onstage in this hour and 15 minute long piece. It was this nonstop, gorgeous representation of who they are, where they come from, with glimpses into these images of colonialism, also representations of what it was in earlier times in Brazil and in South America, when people were kings and Queens and they had a royal representation. But it was just this richness of sadness, of slavery, of a feeling of despondence, of, a feeling of frustration and grief and all of it in an hour and 15 minutes. And there's just one tableau morphing into another that just...knocked the wind out of me and THIS woman and THOSE dancers made this work and it impacted me and the audience so much that it propels you out of your seat to say: enough. Enough! I'm not going to represent the things that keep pushing these agendas of nationalism and populism forward, keep pushing the agendas of racism and xenophobia forward, and this anti-immigration sentiment forward. I'm not going to be part of it anymore and I'm going to do whatever I can through my art making, through my alliances, to push that forward. And that's what art is. There's a direct and clear, gorgeous, majestic, awe-striking representation of, of life to be transmitted to an audience, to then provoke action, thought, and a drive toward change, a drive toward understanding and a drive toward the common understanding of what the human condition is. Search in your heart what it is you need to say and find the resources to say it. I know that Leah Rodriguez didn't have a whole lot of support in her entire career. It's only now that she's gaining prominence and she's 63 years old and she finally garnered a ton of support for this, this piece that I saw last night. But she was dedicated and she did it.
CCJonathan Burrows and Matteo Fargion - two heterosexual white guys, middle aged, balding, heterosexual, white guys - their whole career was based on the need to do what they were doing without a lot of resources. And over a bottle of wine and a kitchen table, they made most of their work. They weren't immediately or necessarily embedded in this idea of funding-funding-funding and big spaces and large productions. They created a huge body of work in their kitchen because they didn't have a whole lot of resources. And that's something that's also struck me that it doesn't necessarily need to be institutional, that, that if, if you have the desire and need to do this work, you can find any way to do it. Everybody has a different way of doing things and every, and each person has different means with which to do it. It's just that you have to seek out those means actively, with a clear vision and precision and rigor and go for it with blood, sweat and tears, period. That's the only way things get done. I have run across in my career a lot of people who have just had things kind of given to them, which I um, I tend to resent. But I've tried to let go of that so that I don't become bitter. But I'd say the large, large portion of anybody who has great success is because you worked for it. And that's, that's, that's it. I think you're absolutely right. And this can be our last question because I know you have a show to get to. I think the combination, at least here in America, um, because I didn't grow up in Europe, of finding the nerve, I think, to make the work is a challenge and then: putting it out there. So I think that is what we need to encourage dancers to do. So if you could speak to that and in our last moments, like how could a dancer, or anybody, just create work? I mean we could create work in our kitchen. I love that idea. And then, where are the outlets that we go to to have this work shown? We have the Internet, I guess we could do youtube, we could mobilize on Instagram live. There are so many options, but for performers who tend to be, I think, like me, a big picture person where I see the final product before I get to the process, what do you think are some cement steps we can offer to our listeners who might want to just bite the bullet and create the work, find a new way of moving and a new way of communicating to educate a new audience to change this paradigm?
CRWell, this is, this is something that I'm working on and I, it's a really hard question to answer. It really is. I wish I could be super, super inspirational.
CCYes, it's very broad.
CRI mean, I had a an hour and a half a mentor session with the students last year from Hollins and because I am the curator and organizer there [in Europe] and part of the, um, the program, I read everybody's feedbacks, but the one comment, several comments, were, you know, "Christopher seems so insecure with his place, in alignment with his relationship with William Forsythe and I'm so glad that I was never attached to a big legendary choreographer, um, that would stifle me and Christopher should really realize the things that he has and uh, be confident." And that's not at all what I felt like I was saying in that feedback round. I was just saying that because of this affiliation, it's very difficult. And because of how prolific that affiliation was and the creations that we, that we made over 20 years, I find it hard to tap into where my voice is based on all that information to be able to then create something new. And that's basically what I was saying - and then, in the world, go out and then not be immediately compared or criticized for being a Forsythe, let's say, Apostle, and um, that's already been done in the past. I struggle with that. It's not that I'm not confident, but by the same token, perhaps those people were right with what they wrote. Maybe I just need to pull up my socks and go forward and just trust my instinct whether I'm going to be compared to that or not. So my point in expressing that or saying that is to say you just got to pull up your socks and use your resources. The things that I have gotten in my career have been because of hard work and because of my associations, I was lucky enough, through hard work to get a job at Pacific Northwest Ballet and then audition and get a job at Miami City Ballet and then audition and get a job at Les Grands Ballet Candadiens, and Pennsylvania Ballet, and then the Frankfurt Ballet, and then the Forsythe Company. Um, I worked hard to get to those points, but through those associations, through that background, I was able then to pitch my ideas to people that would listen, call up the person that I just did a production for and say, do you have studio space? And then be able to get a week or two for free because of my association and because I tried to stay as professional, and kind, and generous with my resources as possible and give back where I've gotten. I, I feel like everybody just needs to be kind to one another so that, that you can keep those relationships intact. So you can ask... I could ask Annemarie's dance studio where I started my dancing for a studio for two weeks if I wanted to. It doesn't matter where or from whom, but because I still have a relationship with her 35 years later, I could call her up and say, can I have the studio for three hours a day for me to make a piece? And I know she would say, yes. It's just USE your surroundings, use your contacts, use, use what you have and use what you know and um, stop being fearful. I maybe used too many excuses to fall back on that disallow me from becoming a, uh, the kind of choreographer that at one point in my life I might've envisioned. And so, so for others to not make that mistake, believe in your possibilities, believe that maybe you might repeat the things that you did in association with someone else, but that's okay. They were yours at one point. In terms of the Forsythe, um, "world," um, Bill gave us all platform to make things with him and without that platform and without his dramaturgical, um, points of departure, I don't believe that I would have come up with some of the things that were valuable to the processes without that. But if I reappropriate them, I have to know that I had a huge part in their making. And if I do reappropriate it, those things, to use them again, I need to repurpose them in a way that is 100% me and not 70% me and 30% Forsythe. So it's about repurposing things too. So that's all I can say, is be confident with your own voice. If you feel in your gut that you're actually going to be crazy enough to jump into this field where there's hardly any money, hardly any, - uh, well in the large sense of things because there is money. That's another fallacy. - But um, you've got to know that you're jumping in for all the right reasons because you've got a voice and it has to be heard. And so don't deny that voice. Listen to it. Find the connections that you trust. Find the connections that you know will, will come through for you. Utilize this connections knowing that - no matter how big or small - ask for help from people who know better than you and how to apply for things, get on the Internet and see what's available to you for help, sponsorship, for applying for money and uh, and go for it. That's where I find myself right now, I'm doing those things. I'm asking for help at 48 years old. I am looking for the applications that pertain to the interests that I have right now and I am reaching out to anybody that I can, that I respect, trust and love, in the efforts toward my goals. Um, and this is important for me to say. It's not just about my end game. It has always been about finding a, a situation where I can be proactive in my field. And once I establish that I will be as generous as I humanly can about giving back. My whole reason for grounding SALT is to share the privilege that I have had, the accumulation of, of experience that I have had to be able to give it back so that others can gain understanding, knowledge and experience toward their own greater experience. And uh, even with something like Hollins where it's a three week opportunity for me to run a curation, I have called on and solicited the support of great friends, artists and colleagues to help illuminate that. And I have the luxury of a budget to be able to pay those people well, to be able to give the dancers in the, the program the greatest possible curation that I have, the ability in my hands to give through those associations. And so this is not necessarily just about me and what I want to gain and have my name on a plaque or the side of the building at some point. I want none of that. I want to be able to work together and collaborate and share what I have, uh, gained with others. And then also continue to collect more information and experience, um, for my own knowledge to then re-disseminate
CCI love it. As a person, a human in general, and as a dancer you hopefully never stop learning. And especially for young dancers who might be listening: I had a conversation with April Daly who is principal at the Joffrey... You know April? But her point to our young dancers in a Q&A was just, don't, don't burn bridges. Just be kind because you never know who you'll need or come back to in the future. The dance world is smaller than the size of a dime. And I'm running into dancers - after even taking 10 years off - that I trained with when I was 12 years old at the Colorado Ballet.
CRThe idea of burning bridges is a tricky, um, idea for me, especially when we're talking about activism because someone is, maybe the bridge might not be burnt, but the person may be. You've got to stick to your guns. You do. You have to listen. You have to be, um, let's say counseled with, um, colleagues, friends, peers, family. If there's something really big that you feel like you need to be an advocate for or, um, or stand against. And I really feel when you make that commitment to do it, you've gotta be prepared to make some, let's say enemies. But I, and I would just do it in the most loving and kind way to say that "I'm not doing this to be against you. I'm doing this to have better situations for everybody else." Um, it's, uh, those, those lines have to be clearer. And, uh, you cannot be an activist and stand for something without potentially alienating some people offending other people. Some of my relationships have not ended well. But I have tried my best to communicate with the words in my, at my disposal what, what is not okay in the situation and why it's not okay and why and how it could be better. And if they don't agree I need to press, I need to go on and I had to move on. I in some circumstances don't believe I was treated fairly and the entire project, not because of my personal treatment, but the project then suffered. I let it be known in the most diplomatic and professional way possible, but we couldn't see eye to eye and we couldn't move forward. And I then had to make the decision to, to say goodbye. It's hard to, especially when you invest so much of your time, energy, network, experience and love and creativity into a situation. And I in some cases and still recovering from some of those associations. And that's the price you have to pay for really sticking to what's important to you and be in representation of those things that you're passionate about. You have to walk the walk...
CC...and not be afraid of what you might lose...
CRThat's right.
CC...in favor of gaining or helping or aiding or spreading the message is more important.
CRI'm not, you know, I am, I am human. There are things I still come up against where, um, "if I don't take this job, I might not be able to pay my, my rent this month." Um, uh, "I would really rather not do it." You've got, you come up with those moral and ethical dilemmas in your career and your life and you've got to weigh out the pros and the cons of everything. And, uh, I can't say that 100% of all my actions or decision making is, is, uh, a full representation of total idealistic, uh, thinking that I wish to represent. Uh, I wish I could be more that way. I'm making efforts to be that in my life. But, uh, sometimes I, I've got bills to pay,
CCRight. But, at the end of the day. You're making the work, right? You're still taking your stand.
CRI'm trying and I'm trying to create things that, um, allow others to make the work too so that we have more of symbiosis, we have more possibilities for one another to um, yeah, to, to be better, to be inclusive, to represent the art form at its best.
CCYou're doing such important work and I'm so excited to see where SALT company goes. I can't wait to see it launch.
CRLet's see. I'm crossing fingers but they'll, it'll be slow going. But project to project, every small project that I, I manage to get done hopefully is, uh, as another step in the right direction for the Illumination of SALT so that it can be a wider network of people being supported somehow if it, if any of your listeners have money to contribute to the new Deborah Hay production for her retrospective at Tanz im August in Berlin, give me a call. We're still looking for money. (chuckles)
CCI'll put a link in the podcast notes for sure. So you can get in touch and donate generously to Christopher Roman and Deborah Hay. Thank you Christopher, so much. Do you have any closing notes you'd like to share with listeners?
CRI, I just, I feel like we all need to come together. I feel like these days of being, um, ballet dancers versus a modern dancer or this versus that... Dance is dance is dance. And if you are truly invested in the field of dance and being a dancer, you want to put your nose in every kind of dance possible so that you can say that I'm an expert in the field of DANCE. And then that cross pollination, we get to know each other more and we get to know that we're all the same and we get to know that we're all in mutual need of support of one another and we get to know that all of the same crap that happens in a ballet company happens in a contemporary company happens in the freelance field. And if we are all coming together to fight against those things and in support of one another, it will be so much easier. I am working toward that in my own tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny speck of dust corner of the world. And I encourage everybody else to do the same. And uh, I, I want nothing more than everybody to have their passions realized through dance and bring people closer together through the art of dance and realize that we are all just...one.
CCThank you for listening to body politic again. I'm your host Courtney Cole Yaddo and please join me next time when I have Ashley Mcqueen Artistic Director of smash works dance based in New York City discussing her evening length work for which it stands.
AMQUm, you know, we had this toilet plunger like wouldn't make it to do and you know, and so I had this vision on the train is, you know, classical music or something and just Trump's words trumps boys overlaid and just this plunger.
CCAshley is part of the new generation of choreographers and dancers who are unapologetically political in their work. The first time I saw "For Which it Stands" in its entirety in St Louis, I was mesmerized and I couldn't wait to have her on the podcast to discuss how she's so clearly married her ideas of political activism, feminism, and dance and performing arts into a full evening work that touches everybody in some way.
AMQWhat dance can do for the community outside of just this proscenium setting,
CCif you're intrigued, join us for episode three a huge thank you to Christopher Roman, to you the listeners, to Hollins University, and sponsor Byron Green. Tune in next time to Body Politic, the intersection of performing arts and political activism. Music credits. Go to incompetech.com and composer Kevin McCleod.
