Toby Rowland was the co-founder of one of Britain's best-known dot com startups - a health site called Clickmango. He and his partner had no trouble raising £3 million, or spending it as fast as they could, at the urging of their investors, in a year and a half. They hired Joanna Lumley to promote their site but Toby realised, too late, that the idea of selling vitamins online wasn't going to work and that he should have tried one of the many other startup ideas he'd rejected. But Clickmango was followed in Toby's career by other innovative businesses, including a dating site and the company behind Candy Crush. In this podcast, Toby relives the dramatic rise and fall of Clickmango.
Toby Rowland was the co-founder of one of Britain's best-known dot com startups - a health site called Clickmango. He and his partner had no trouble raising £3 million, or spending it as fast as they could, at the urging of their investors, in a year and a half. They hired Joanna Lumley to promote their site but Toby realised, too late, that the idea of selling vitamins online wasn't going to work and that he should have tried one of the many other startup ideas he'd rejected. But Clickmango was followed in Toby's career by other innovative businesses, including a dating site and the company behind Candy Crush. In this podcast, Toby relives the dramatic rise and fall of Clickmango.
Welcome to TBH. Throughout these first shows we're looking at the dotcom boom in the UK. And if you lived through that time and took the slightest interest in what was going on, you would have heard of the business co-founded by my guest this week. He's Toby Rowland and his company Clickmango, famously raised a lot of money to launch an online health site. It wasn't the site that you would have read about in the papers, but the story of the raising and the spending of the money and how the actress Joanna Lumley was signed up to promote Clickmango. If there was.com fever in the UK, then Toby Rowland was at the centre of it.
Toby Rowland:I was really aware of, of the kind of historical and normally we were living through, you know, this was going to be significant in the future. And, um, and one of the things that I didn't do, and I just wish every, every a year that goes by a wish I had done it was, was to start collecting like there some of the business plans from that era, you know, because they were just a fascinating insight into, you know, this kind of combination of mass hysteria and genuine and a genuine insight into what was going to happen into the future because those business plans were amazing. Some of them.
Speaker 3:Well, let's just go back to the start because one thing that I'm interested in, I'm just sort of slightly relates to what you're saying is, was that.whoa.com era the kind of epitome of entrepreneurship, was it a completely unique, uh, period? Like you're suggesting really whether so many kinds of things about it that were just actually totally different from normal that we shouldn't really in, in a way even think of it like entrepreneurship in the normal sense?
Toby Rowland:Well, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think that we, that the nature of entrepreneurship, uh, changed in that, through that time. Right? So, because I think the way that we thought about an entrepreneur entrepreneur before 1998 or 1989 was, um, we, we kind of thought about Richard Branson. Yeah. Didn't we? And, um, and we didn't think about this kind of mass mass printer ship that, that, that we now have, you know, it was a few individuals, you know, entrepreneurship and people wanted to be to be like them and that's
Speaker 3:body. But is that the reality or one of the things that Rory says in his book, um, is that although that sort of the media likes to portray it as sort of like anyone can start a business. In fact, when you look at it, the people who came through came from a relatively privileged background and they weren't representative of 20 year olds in general. Is that, is that, I think I'm probably at the time
Toby Rowland:if he calls to mind that people were very intent on security, you know, and so that was the way that the people would leave Oxford and they'd be thinking about their pension. Um, you know, like in our first year out of Oxford. And, and that, uh, has changed, has completely changed now, um, because people know that if they seek security, they perhaps weren't habit. Um, and that the weight
Speaker 3:to the way to achieve security is to co is to be more forward looking. And that involves being being a risk taker. Right. So yes, risk taking has become a sort of part of conventional wisdom, I guess in terms of working lives.
Toby Rowland:Yeah, exactly. So, so I think, I mean, where I think you're right is that some of the people then from that time, some of the entrepreneurs from that era did come from comfortable backgrounds, but it wasn't, it was not because you needed money. It was, um, it was because those people were less intent on,
Speaker 3:on that security, which, which was proven to be fleeting. But just to go, just to go back to your story then, you left university and you became a consultant KPM tree[inaudible] and then you worked for Disney. Yes. Both sort of, um, employee positions. Yes. What was your sort of mentality about going from a salary to starting a business
Toby Rowland:seemed like a big step. I mean, I'd been at Disney for five years and I was, um, I was very happy in my work at Disney. Um, and, uh, they, Disney gave me a lot of love as a wonderful place to work. Um, but, but through my work, I came in contact with all sorts of fascinating companies who were, who had started at that time to come to Disney and want to license the content. And so myself and a couple of a few others inside Disney world, we're more and more regularly deployed to speak to these people because we spoke the same language. Um, and, um, and to see what we could get from them in terms of, you know, options and equity and et Cetera, et Cetera, for doing kind of minor content partnerships. Uh, and so I kinda got, I'm a little bit of a taste for this, this wild world outside of, outside of the big corporations making. Yeah. So
Speaker 3:how did you get from there to say, all right, let's give it a go?
Toby Rowland:Well, I mean myself and my partner Robert Norton from, from um, uh, of, of click mango days. Um, we were very, we are both very anxious about it til about leaving our jobs. And I think we actually kind of quit on the same day, um, because, you know, with, it was kind of time and we had an idea that we thought could, could fly. Um, and it was a wonderful time to quit your job because everyone was looking for, you know, defined like young guys, uh, with a, with a credible plan. Um, and who, who looked like they could get something made, you know. So this was[inaudible] 98 or something, was it, or 97? This is 1998. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Um,
Speaker 3:and so just, let's just go through it. So I believe it was his, your partner, your business partners, stepfather had a health farm.
Toby Rowland:Right, right. And was that in a way the inspiration for you going into online health as a business? I think that there's, um, there's always been a kind of slightly cynical process of, um, of saying, okay, if there's something happening in America is it hasn't yet been done in the UK and, uh, if it hasn't or in Europe, and if it hasn't, then, um, there's a, there's an opportunity to do it. Yeah. And so, um, uh, and it's always been a little bit like that. Uh, so, so at that time there was a, um, a website in the u s called Mother nature.com, which was raising a lot of money, um, which obviously subsidy went to the wall. Um, but that that company had had, was attractive to investors and looked like it was going to do well because, well, I had a real story of why it was going to sell product to B to c and a, and we were emulating that. And I think, to be honest, I think that we back filled, I'm the kind of inspirations of why, why we should be doing that. Um, you know, we need to set that was there and we, and there hadn't been done in Europe and we said, okay, let's do it. You were in a way sort of casting around for something to do it. Was that one of several possibilities that you were considering? Oh yeah. Um, we had, uh, I think I probably had probably had three or four much better ideas before that one. I just got it. You said you needed to raise money. Yeah. And you went along to the first Tuesday meeting, I believe. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And first Tuesday being this networking event in London that was trying to sort of emulate the, the kind of networks that you found in silicon valley, I think. And, um, it was a particularly good one. I mean, Brent Hoberman, um, and Julie Meyer, uh, both, uh, incredibly accomplished kind of networkers and, and collectors of people. Um, and so, um, and, and first Tuesday was an amazing place to be. And, uh, and so, yeah, so we met at this venture that, um, and pitch them. And then we followed up, followed up later on. And, um, and we had a few, we had a few offers, a atlas venture. We're not the only one, but yeah, they were, um, they were the ones that we selected. Was it true from breweries book, but you didn't have any business cards with you at the first Tuesday meeting and you have to tear off a bit of a tablecloth and write your contact numbers and stuff on it for people. I think I did. And I think what's, what's makes it, it's gonna make you sound even worse than that was I think I then drew a small star on the, uh, on the one on this bit of this kind of as that business card.
Speaker 3:And what was that representing? Well, just to sort of distinguish it from the other, the other disk, right. Well, anyway, yeah, it worked. And so how much money were you wanting? How did you decide how much money you wanted?
Toby Rowland:I mean, in those days, you know, one could raise an a round, you know, what today would be seen as any around, uh, it was kind of legitimate to do that on a business plan because a website, you know, today is free and, but then it cost a million pounds really in it. Yeah. So, and that was people that was accepted, you know, people might, people thought that might be even be a little bit cheap, you know. So, um,
Speaker 3:in a way that's a curious thing, isn't it? Because when we look back on it now as the sort of.com days when anyone could start an online business, you tend to forget that actually they couldn't because they couldn't even get a website for, you know, unless they have money.
Toby Rowland:No. They, um, they just, everything, nothing was there. You didn't have the libraries. Uh, you just didn't have, um, uh, the easy ways of whipping something together and didn't have Shopify. So, um, yeah, so if you want to make an ecommerce website, you kind of started, started at the, um, you know, uh, the command line,
Speaker 3:right? So you raised 3 million pounds, I think. Yeah. And what, what was the process of trying to persuade the vcs to part with that money? Like, I mean, you have to write a business plan and then you took it around to people.
Toby Rowland:We had a business plan, um, so which, which I actually read last year and I was surprised how good it was. Right. That respect because I, you sort of, you know, you think you look back and you think, oh, we, we young than and what we know and so forth because you hope that you've made progress in the interim. But in fact, I don't necessarily think that was pretty good. You know, it's well written, made a huge amount of sense. Well researched. Uh, yeah. And was it over optimistic? Well, I think that what happened then was that people did not use credit cards online unless they absolutely had to, you know, or unless they were young and male, you know? And so it didn't care. Um, and if you were an older vitamin buyer, I've seen, we're not going to put in your credit card online. So I think that was one of the reasons why our business plan was, was over optimistic.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean Amazon was sort of around at that time, wasn't it?
Toby Rowland:Amazon was around, um, and people, you know, Amazon was a magic site and safe. I mean, you know, the, the business that click mango was, was not going, was not going to work out then and wouldn't have worked out later either. You know, it was, it was optimistic. And I think that the idea of, um, of creating content in order to sell product, I think that you knew that was obviously a, a something that people believed at the time. Um, but which subsequently proved to be not true. And what people really wanted was, um, user reviews. Right,
Speaker 3:right. So it wasn't that it was much more than just a retail, psychiatric was almost like a news and information site where you could buy stuff. Right. I think that's right. Yeah, it was, um, it was, I think it was cool to an info Taylor was that the more that that might've been the model, uh, at the time. Yep.
Charles Miller:Tech business history with this week's guest, Toby Rowland. So just talk me through sort of how, how you got on
Speaker 3:then with your 3 million and you hired people and how did it go?
Toby Rowland:Well, I think that we, we had to have a lot of people in a hurry. Um, we had to get, I think it was decisions, um, uh, Manoj Batali and uh, and Charlie Mendenhall, um, had to compound an agency called net decisions, who we then, uh, we then kind of a s well we awarded the contract to build the website to them. And then we had really had a lot of a lot of people and we made a beautiful crazy.com office. Uh, you know, and I think it was very, it's very exciting at that time, you know, if, if you think now that the east end was not a place where, uh, hipsters and, uh, you know, digital entrepreneurs who are working, you know, we, we, I think we were one of the very first companies to base ourselves there. So, yeah, it was cheap, but it was also, it was kind of Funky, you know, it was wild. And, um, and it was, and it was, it felt very, I think if it felt quite edgy, a space to be so, um, if I'm out at night in, um, in brick lane or that whatever I say, yes, I, you know, you don't know this, but I invented this place, right. We were kind of at the, um, at the edge. He could buy a house on[inaudible] Street, which is the most beautiful streets. I don't know if you know, um, you could buy, have beautiful Georgian House with four stories high for of 600 grand.
Speaker 3:God, well, it's the same in Britain, 3 million into your, into that a little bit much better. Um, but just going back to the sort of, the whole environment, I've been reading this great book, I don't know whether, you know, burn rates by Michael Wolf. Yes. Uh, it's a wonderful account of his, uh, experiences in New York. One of, one of the things he talks about is that nobody really knew where this was going. And so that from the sort of entrepreneur's point of view, as long as you are confident and sort of just maybe one step ahead of the people who were holding the money, you could get away with it and, and confidence and optimism where really what you needed at that time.
Toby Rowland:MMM, I think so. I mean I think, um, I think it at some point the in is that the music clearly stopped. Um, we, I think we've in people wanted you to be spending money and doing more than the next person.
Speaker 3:You, they wanted you to spend the money fast. Right?
Toby Rowland:It, they certainly did. Yeah. So, so people said, um, they, they wanted you to have one in your space and then to be extending in. So they wanted to see a lot of coverage. Lately, once you, a lot of press coverage they want to see on TV, um, they wanted to hear people talking about it and uh, and they, and then they were, then there's going to be more money.
Speaker 3:But you didn't, you, you were, you were ranch.
Toby Rowland:I, I think, I mean the, you know, a certain point, obviously the tide, you know, started to, uh, to add. And so, yeah. And at that point, I think it became, I think it became very clear, um, a few weeks after we've launched, I think it became very clear that, you know, there just wasn't the demand that we'd forecast and there wasn't the, there wasn't the conversion that we do cost. Right.
Speaker 3:So I think you actually launched the site in April, 2000. Yes. Um, so to take a new, a good few months since the previous year to, to actually be ready to sell anything, but you'd already had massive amount of publicity
Toby Rowland:we had. So we, we were, um, I think people wanted like crazy.com startups to, um, to write about, you know, and I think that we, to a certain extent, made ourselves, uh, to capture that publicity, you know, so the, the things that we did, you know, that we that are kind of beautiful office, you know, we had an inflatable boardrom. Um, we had, uh, you know, there, there were lots of, there was always something new for people to come and film or write about and uh, you know, and, and so, so we kept that going.
Speaker 3:It was a shame that you didn't actually have product for them to buy while they were reading about all this stuff in the papers.
Toby Rowland:Well, I think I, yeah, I guess you could say I could, I guess you could. If you are doing it today, you'd say, oh, why are you bothering to do publicity when there's nothing for people to come and do you? So what, why, what's this, what's the point of that? You know? But at the time we were on a mission to get publicity, um, from the Keck though, because our, our very first funding we had appeared in the ft, you know, when we were sort of two guys in an office that had a lot of mice in it, you know, like just daytime, like lot of mice. And, um, you know, the FFT came and interviewed us and wrote quite a long piece about how this, this company had just raised'em 3 million pounds
Speaker 3:because there was a great market in the media as he said at that time for any stories about young people who thought they were going to be very rich very quickly.
Toby Rowland:Yeah. They wanted that. Um, yeah, let's see. So now you would say, oh wait, wait until, wait until we've launched. And then, you know, get, get some publicity for the right kind of publicity that makes people want to come and buy. And then I think, you know, it was very much any, any publicity is good publicity that because we want to be known, we want to be famous, you know? And so we would spend money and we would do stuff and uh, and ultimately we had joined Lumley a onsite, he was, was just the most incredible
Speaker 3:kind of brand ambassador to half. Interesting. Tell me about trying to love me because I mean, obviously she's a, she's a great sort of personality, but yeah, I mean, she wasn't exactly kind of a cool character. Was she, I mean, she wasn't somebody who was representing youth at all or is that deliberate?
Toby Rowland:Well, I mean, it was a vitamin site and vitamins are for, you know, for all the people. Right. So, uh, and so for all the people at that time, uh, her patsy character was extremely attractive, um, and very funny. And join the army in general was just, was just brilliant, you know, and she, the reality is Joan is a highly intelligent person, um, and extremely funny to talk to and just generally, you know, I think probably could have done anything. I think she probably, if she hadn't wanted to be an actress, then I think she probably could have been extremely successful politician. You know, she, she could've done anything. She's amazing.
Speaker 3:I mean, obviously you enjoyed your dealings with Joanna alumnus, but what status was that a really a strategy that you should have pursued, do you think?
Toby Rowland:Well, I mean, I remember Robert, uh, came into work one day looking a bit a bit depressed, my partner and said, um, he said yes. He said, I was at my grandmother's birthday last night and I was talking to her about, um, about click mango. And she asked me if we had any of our own product. And I said, no, we don't, we don't have, we just sell other people's, you know, we just sell like major brands or whatever. And she's, and she said, uh, and, and, and he said, yeah, she said to me, she asked me, well, why is anyone going to come to your shop then?
Speaker 3:And did, she'd
Toby Rowland:had a, she'd had a handbag shop and she said, well, you know, people would come for my, for the handbags that I had, otherwise it gets someone else. That was kind of a significant moment, I think Robert's grandmother and her handbags, but it wasn't going to, you couldn't have done everything you did plus create a whole range of products as well. Yeah, no, that would have been very hard. But now, I mean the, I think probably this like a site that in some ways kind of reminds me of like mega what and what it in what it sounded achieve or what does achieving is like hum nutrition, um, which is critical, which is a site that offers you nutritional supplements, which are in some way, um, uh, customized to you. And uh, and it does very well. You couldn't have done that either because of the sophistication of the technology required. Presumably we, we, uh, no, we had our hands full. What's there? Anything you could've done that would've created a sort of happy ending? No, I don't think so. Um, because I think that, I think we just had the wrong model, you know, and it's very hard to go from the wrong model to the right model. You'd see very few people doing it well because the whole beach to see thing change to be, to be during your while you were bad and well, it was interesting actually the focus change for it because people, it was kind of like, well we try BTC, I didn't work must be B to B. You know, that must be the answer because this other thing didn't work. But in fact, um, and I, and I remember people being quite kind of Smug, you know, about the whole B2b kind of gang got quite smug, um, in 2000 when things are bursting and that they suddenly they were the serious ones. Uh, but the reality is that they all went to the wall to eventually, um, and the things that, the things that worked where, you know, where, cause I had to get pretty folk after click mango. I mean that was a bit of a wake up call for me about business models. I got quite kind of focused on how you actually make money. And then I figured, and I went to this online dating site, you know, so um, that you date and, and there it was amazing. You know, we couldn't stop making money because people were desperate, but their credit cards in and, and go on an online date. And so was that because the Internet was that much older and more familiar to people? No, because it targeted people who had much strong that they couldn't get that otherwise. You see what I mean? So they could get vitamins in business, you know, but online dating with something they never had and that, and you date, um, no Morris in use the CEO, like he was, he was, uh, you know, like a very prescient in many ways. And, um, and so at ut we had a, we had a form of instant messaging, took about a minute for each message to get through. But if that, if you hadn't had that was like magic, you know, said, oh my God, all I'm doing is I'm paying 14 pounds 95 months and these messages are coming through from like, uh, like a nice girl in Sunderland, you know? But I mean,
Speaker 3:you're saying, I'm surprised you're sort of saying that the problem was that the business model, because you could equally well have said at the time that we needed the next round of funding, that climate's just completely changed and there was just no way of getting any money for anything.
Toby Rowland:No. I think that, um, I think that online, uh, vitamin a each hell, I don't, I don't think that that was ever going to be a massive, massive business. I'm sure it's, it's a sort of business now, but I would imagine it's quite low margin. I don't want to be mean about other people's businesses or whatever, but, um, but I don't, I just, just considering the basics, the basic fundamentals of it, I can't, I find it hard to imagine that selling, you know, fit them and a over the Internet is working really well for anyone.
Speaker 3:But was it rather painful? Your venture capitalists who had been so enthusiastic and giving you the money the first time round where so unresponsive when you went back and asked for more when you needed it, what was that like?
Toby Rowland:Do you know what the, I think that, um, I mean at this venture we're actually, they were amazing actually because, um, they, they knew, I think when it, when the wind changed that they immediately knew that something was different. And, uh, they tried their hardest to help, you know, just sort of help us to, to do something at that time. And these kind of sewer coming. Um, and they said, listen, we've got to get on with it because stuff's going to things, things that can stop learning up. And so I think that we all knew that, you know, some, something had changed you. A venture capitalists are very optimistic people and at this venture I think where, um, you know, th th they have to be optimistic and the most optimistic ones are often the most successful, you know, so that, um, so, and I think at this venture in a way like that, but they're also, they will say pragmatic. And they knew when it was time to just, you know, look for something else. They knew when in that time of come
Speaker 3:you sound remarkably sort of and bitter about the whole thing. I mean, did you, I mean obviously you learned a lot. Did you lose money on it personally or did you make money in our sort of how, what was the sort of bottom line as far as you concerned with clickbank? Okay.
Toby Rowland:Oh, well, I mean in those days, uh, you would, this is why, this is why I say that it was a very open opportunity that anyone could really do this because Robert and I probably put up, um, I think our office cost us 60 quid a week. Uh, you know, and then we didn't have any other costs, um, you know, both before and then be ready to business ban. And, um, and then, you know, we, I think we were probably an unsaturated for maybe a couple of months or something like that. So, so we didn't really have to put in any money. And then we closed it down. We had declared it down when the money ran out. There was, it was expensive, you know, 100,000 times a week or something with, uh, I think, uh, I hate to say that. Um, I know, I think it probably won't be about that. Maybe a bit more even. Yeah, probably a bit more. But you weren't getting paid by that stage? Oh yeah, no, we're all being paid. Like I said, it was, you know, we, we raised 3 million pounds and we, we, uh, we, we spend, we'd spend it within probably a year and a half
Charles Miller:TV tech, business history,
Speaker 3:things you always hear that silicon valley is that there's no sort of shame in failing. Um, uh, the British are not really good at failing. And, uh, you know, it seems like you've come through this absolutely unscathed and you've gone onto great things with other businesses. I mean, how did you manage that? What I think at the time I had,
Toby Rowland:I think closing a business, it can just be terribly depressing, you know, or it can be quite cathartic. Um, and fortunately haven't had to do at once. Uh, so, um, that, that was a nice thing. Um, but I think just the process of saying, all right, this is printed there, you know, how much can I get for that? Thank you. Um, and trying to say, uh, and trying to kind of come out as best as possible for the, uh, for the investors and make sure that everyone's been paid and stuff. That process is quite, it's quite focusing, you know, and I think it's quite good preparation for just saying, okay, well, you know, take a take a maybe, maybe six weeks off and then late start, do something else, you know, so because it's, it kind of really pulls, you know, you get a bit strung out when the business is looking shaky, but actually closing it and going through that process, laying everyone off, you know, paying off all the, all the, um, uh, creditors, you know, it, it Kinda gets you back into the quite an organized frame of mind.
Speaker 3:So when you took the six weeks off and then started again, yeah. And you went around and saying, you know, I'm Toby, you've probably heard of click mango. Was that, uh, uh, an asset or a disadvantage? In terms of people's confidence in what you could do next? Well, I think it was, um, it was actually, it was, it was quite bad actually because, um, click mango was one of a few really spectacular busts. And, uh, and uh, we,
Toby Rowland:we had to, we realized that we couldn't actually just stopped talking to the media because we'd been courting media attention so much on the way up that we thought that we were advised by our, um, uh, our public relations agency are very, um, and I said, listen, you've got to, you've got to give them time on the way down, uh, because otherwise you'd just look like in a real sort of jokes or whatever. So we will, we would be filmed, you know, emptying, kind of like documents into the back of dumpsters and, um, all this stuff all anyway, so we were, we were like famous adopt bombers. You weren't famous in the way that bu was though, for kind of, totally. You know, I think, I think we will, I didn't think we were famous as being useless. I think it was more like, this was a dot bomb. You know, w we, we personally didn't look too bad, but you know, we, we had quite a lot of notoriety, um, at the time. So we say[inaudible] I mean what I did was I, as soon as things started to look by ad a tactic Manga, I actually started looking, um, for various, uh, you know, finance courses, masters and finances. So, and I applied what while click mango was still going. I just thought I'd do slightly need a backup plan head because otherwise it could be quite bad cause I don't want to just be stuck without a job and nothing to do. I thought it'd be quite depressing anyway. So yeah. So I then went straight into lbs doing a masters in finance, which is an amazing course. The business school. Yeah, exactly. I thought that was also, you know, I had to do a lot of the finance for click mango and that was very much a crash course. Um, so, uh, I kind of felt like I needed to know not more, a lot more than I did. Right.
Speaker 3:I mean, you've had a tremendous success with, with king.com but I unfortunately you didn't make the money that you could out of that, I believe.
Toby Rowland:Well, I, I didn't, um, we can, I think probably king's better for me than maybe some people imagine, um, is the company that, uh, candy crush. Yeah. Yeah. So, so obviously I wasn't, I, you know, I didn't, um, I was the largest shareholder in king other than apex, uh, you know, for quite a long time. Um, but, you know, I did unfortunately sell my shares, so I'm not speaking to you from my private island. Um, so,
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, so the word is that you could have been a billionaire if you'd hung on a bit longer. Is that right?
Toby Rowland:Um, yeah, I think, I think, I think that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But again, you seem resigned or sort of just unfazed by that.
Toby Rowland:Um, well at the time, you know, it was, it was obviously painful because it was wonderful to start it, you know, one of Europe's biggest kind of Unicorns, you know, but, but, and then to, to not be there when that, when that really monetize was, you know, was there was, there was kind of painful, you know, and, and I think it was also something that it's a kind of thing that people, uh, people have a negative outlook, uh, dwell on that if they're talking to you, if you see what I mean. So that's something that people like to know and sort of almost hinter not in the way that you're doing it because you're doing it for journalistic reasons, but you, but other people might wish to dwell on that and somehow somehow kind of prod you to see whether that's something that you're sad about them. Yeah, but I'm, I'm reconciled to it, you know,
Speaker 3:I mean, your dad tiny Roland was a tremendous entrepreneur. Is, I mean, this is, I'm getting a bit slightly the amateur psychologist here, but you were brought up obviously in a family where big deals were being discussed the whole time, uh, some, some successful and some others, not. Presumably, I mean, do you think that that sort of awareness of what was going on in your dad's working life gave you a kind of resilience that has been useful?
Toby Rowland:Oh, very much. Australia. I mean, because I saw, you know, my dad when he was up and my dad when he was down, and you know, those two, you know, he, he was very resilient. Um, so, and I think that, um, you, you need to be pretty phlegmatic as a, uh, as an entrepreneur. If you, if you let everything get to you, um, and if you let, if you let either the art or the ups the downs get to you, then, uh, you, you, you're not going to play very well. You know,
Speaker 3:w w well, finally, just looking back on the whole sort of.com craziness, I mean, what, what's, what's your sort of abiding memory and, and sort of feeling about it?
Toby Rowland:I think it's just like a genuine sort of happiness to have been part of something that I see is, you know, of being, of, of a kind of historical importance, you need to have just played a to have played or something and played it, you know, not terribly. Um, and, and to have been part of something so fascinating, you know, and some momentous
Speaker 3:exactly. Because you know, whatever happened in 2000 and 2001 the Internet didn't miss a beat rally. We went from strength to strength and he created the world that we live in today. Really.
Toby Rowland:It did, you know, and, and I think that even the wildest predictions of that time, uh, we're all very quickly surpassed, you know, the things that people do, the things that people could have predicted them or the people did protect turned out to be incredibly conservative.
Speaker 3:So, so it's, it's odd that, isn't it, because in a way, the hype which we look back on as being a bit crazy was actually correct.
Toby Rowland:Oh yeah. No, everything was, everything was correct. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a source of, uh, it's kind of a source of satisfaction, you know, to, to, uh, and also just a kind of lesson for the future of saying you knew things that, things that sound unlikely but possible con can be achieved. You know, just, just takes a little, just take 10 years, not five. Toby, thank you so much. It's been really, really interesting. Chose. I really enjoyed him.
Charles Miller:Thank you for listening to Tbh with Charles Miller. Thanks so much to[inaudible] a true entrepreneur. Please join me for another Tbh podcast next week.