Hi. In this episode of IB Matters, we talked to Ashish Mishra and Tim Kane about their work helping diploma program teachers build their tp courses in such a way as to give all their students the best chance to succeed. In other words, they show teachers and coordinators how to significantly improve diploma scores. They are both experienced IB teachers with a long track record of doing just that and as she worked for the IB organization as the former director of their access equity and excellence project. Tim was also a consultant on that project for both Asheesh and Tim, This is an equity issue. In their research. Underrepresented students often don't choose diploma courses because they think they aren't prepared that they won't succeed or that courses will leave them with no personal life. Ashish and Tim have developed a set of strategies that improve success for all students in the diploma program courses. As a result, they began an organization called IB school improvement.com so they can share their expertise with others, listen as they share their process and show IB diploma teachers how to build streamlined courses that are focused on the aims of each course while leaving out the often unnecessary portions, which caused both the students and the teachers to lose their way on the path to better scores and overall success in the program.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Jon Peterson:Welcome to IB matters, a podcast for those who currently teach lead, attend or interested in international baccalaureate IB schools. Hello, this is IBM
Speaker 3:matters. This is Jon Peterson and I'm here today with Ashish Mishra and Tim Cain and a, these gentlemen are working together with an organization, uh, that they created called IB school improvement. And I think their story is very interesting and would be very interested interesting to the listeners of our podcast as they talk about and what they're goals are for IB students around the world.
Asheesh Misra:I, uh, if it's okay with, uh, John and Tim, I'll, I'll jump in here and I'll just start sort of, uh, how I ended up, uh, working with Tim is that I feel a sense of destiny around it. But, uh, I was a teacher in a large suburban school district not too far from where I am now, teaching advanced placement and a pre pre AP courses. Actually after my first three years of teaching, quite as the young man, I was really disgruntled and I, I had only taught my students to regurgitate information, uh, and memorize. And I went into teaching to really be a transformative, life-changing educator like Robin Williams, this character dead poets society. Right. And I can tell you I was absolutely not that teacher. I bought a bunch of l set books and decided before I go to law school, I'm going to try to go overseas for a couple years. And I ended up getting a job teaching in Brazil. Uh, and I didn't, had no idea what I B was, but thankfully I got a job at an international baccalaureate world school and could he Chiba in southern Brazil? And they sent me to Eunice for IB t okay. Training the first five minutes into that training, I knew this was something different. The level of discourse among the teachers. That was something that I had never experienced before. Okay. Most importantly, the school was an IB for all school. Of course, the students at the school were, um, very elite students that had the means to go to a private international school. But nonetheless, by the nature of the contract the school had with local, a local, uh,[inaudible] companies, et Cetera, we had a really a diverse range of the kids in terms of intellectual capacity as well as in terms of English mastery. And so they all took t. Okay. They all took IB history. And because thankfully, uh, not because of any great a brilliance that I had, but, but because I, I designed the courses around the IB assessment criteria. I really saw intellectual transformation among those kids. And then a, I was returning to the United States. Tim actually interviewed me a little. Did he know I was wearing boxer shorts on a beach in Brazil, uh, looking out on a beach in Brazil during the interview was a phone interview, but I got a job at Tim's school. And then, uh, when I came to a very large, ah, very economically and ethnically diverse, uh, IB school in northern Virginia started asking myself, well, why can't all of these kids enjoy the benefits of that program? And I also, I had had great success in the school that I was in in terms of my students a IB exam results. Uh, but in this school I had, uh, uh, okay. Ninth Grade, 10th grade, uh, world history courses. And I had a lot of ESL students in my classes. And in the first year, um, I had a huge ego at the time cause I had just finished successful IB teaching and my students, after my first year on the, our world history team, w, uh, had the lowest a passing score on a Virginia State assessment. And Tim was the first mentor leader, educator. Uh, whoever told me the truth, I remember very vividly sitting down with him in July. Back then, it took the state a long time scores and I remember sitting down with him in July when the scores came out and yeah, you know, he pointed out that my scores were below the team norm and then I looked at the scores and I said, oh, all the students who didn't pass were ESL students trying to excuse myself from responsibility. It was really my first time in the high stakes assessment environment in the United States. And Tim said, well, there's two. There's two ways of looking at it. You could talk about the students or we could talk about urine and effectiveness of reaching those students this year. And that moment was literally the most pivotal moment in my educational career, a two for someone to honestly share how the data reflected the impact that I had on those kids' lives. Needless to say, I was very upset and angry at Tim for about an hour, but then I spent the next three weeks rewriting the scope and sequence of the course. Totally transformed the way I taught[inaudible] on the first day of school. The next year I told every child in my class they're gonna, all of them would pass that state exam. I made a promise to them and thanks to the outstanding team I had and leaders like Tim, I was able to achieve that goal because of really the collaboration we had around data. Um, and then, uh, Tim and I and other outstanding leaders and teachers in the area became really devoted to a movement to expand IB access to all students. Uh, I'll pass the baton on to Tim from that point if he wants to tell any of that story a little bit more.
Tim Kane:Okay. So John, I'm just going to say I live by basically three numbers.[inaudible] um, this year at my school, 294 students, IB history, h l they scored a 4.67, tremendous. Your average and the world amp, which was a 4.11. Um, basically why will stay as this we know and the research is absolutely that the rigor of your high school curriculum[inaudible] is the single greatest indicator of bachelor degree attainment. Look at Adelman from uh, enters in toolbox and the answers are toolbox rebates.[inaudible] the bottom line is we know this is true and the more kids that we can get in right of this curriculum, the better we are sending them to where they're going to be. Sure. And it's not about so much kind of like opening the door, opening the door, but open the door and telling them you are going to be successful. And what is she, she just said a moment ago about saying to his world, to kids, we're going to be successful saying that to an IB class. Say that to an HL asco class and going, look, we're going to do that, but you're going to be successful. Okay. That they will be and they will score where they want to and they will be competent going where they're going to go. And really that's what about IB school improvement.com is about you saying too schools, teachers and students. What's our water too IB expectations and be able to give you feedback in such a way that you are going to feel confident going into those exams and the feedback teachers are going to give their students is going to make students confident but they're also to pass on to there no, those who power them to go oh you can do this too. And that's what,
Jon Peterson:so um, it, as I'm listening to this and I heard her, she say after just you know, a relatively short term before he even tried the new methods and the new approach that you helped him discover, he already had the confidence to tell the students that they were going to be successful. So she should, maybe you could answer why did you think you could at that point why without having done it going through, what gave you the confidence at the beginning before you even started to say you'll be successful?
Asheesh Misra:It's a great question cause I think it aligns directly to the work that Tim and I are, are collaborating on together today. Many, many, many years later. Um, I hadn't designed a course, uh, with fidelity that was directly aligned with okay. The, the assessment criteria, uh, that the students would be measured on. And I knew that the work I'd had done over the summer as a result of the negative experience I have and the honest feedback I received from both the state and Tim, uh, at now, Aye was devoted to being sure that my instruction aligned with the aims of the course as published by the state. Um, and as well as the assessments that students were going to take. And now let's be clear, you know, we had an outstanding team of colleagues. I didn't do this alone. Um, but because of the experience that I had with the assessments, I really challenged the colleagues when I came back around how much of the content we were teaching was based on our personal interests. Some of it quite trivial to be honest with you. Ah, rather than
Speaker 3:we all have our favorite unit that we like to teach.
Asheesh Misra:Exactly rather than the clear, um, assessment criteria. And, and I really embrace the notion that from a content perspective, and this is quite controversial sometimes different audiences, but from a content perspective, what you teach is arbitrary. And by arbitrary I don't mean there isn't important content that all kids in certain cultural contexts should understand in order to be right. I'm really active citizens but there's so much that one can teach and you've got to make really hard choices. And, and so like came back, I didn't do, again, I didn't do it alone, but I came back to the team and said, because so much of this is truly arbitrary, let's agree to what is now today called power standards. We didn't have that term back then, but to really reduce what we teach to the bare minimum of content that we can teach so we can focus on skills and skill development. Um, that is so much of what the tool that uh, we're working on together. Tim and i@ibschoolimprovement.com is all about, is giving teachers really, uh, intimate understanding of what assessment criteria means in the IB and most importantly, how it relates to course aids. Uh, when I, this work also developed out of, uh, an experience I had in 2014 I joined the international baccalaureate as the program manager for Michael and Susan Dell funded project called the bridging the equity gap project. All right. I had an opportunity at the time to work with really outstanding consultants from around the country. Cindy Harko, Colin Pierce, uh, Carol Burris, uh, a scholar, author practitioner around access and equity and all of us at the beginning of the project assumed that w we are going into schools and we are trying to encourage the schools themselves to dismantle the arbitrary obstacles that, uh, school's still create for children who have GPA requirements to take advanced courses, really rigorous applications that, uh, look like college applications requiring three recommendations and essays requiring parents to sign off that your child's going to have to do 80 hours of work a week. You know, I'm exaggerating a little bit there, but you get any idea of what I'm talking about. And thankfully we were working with a research group out of Sri Education that was evaluating the project from every step, but they also to get a baseline went into the pilot schools that we first worked with from 2014 to 2017 and they surveyed the kids themselves and they surveyed kids who were in the IB program and then kids, um, many of which who were students that receive free and reduced lunch benefits and many of which were also ethnic minority, underrepresented minorities. Uh, they surveyed those kids in and asked them, uh, in a much in a detailed way, why did you, aren't you taking IB courses? And the kids did not identify what we had perceived as a structural obstacles, GPA requirements and applications. While I still would contend those, uh, definitely, uh, create obstacles for all kids, but especially underrepresented minorities to take advanced courses. The kids themselves identified that it was the perceived rigor of the course, that they would not be able to have social relationships. They would be up until the wee hours. Uh, I then ended up hiring Tim as one of the consultants that worked on the project and Tim and Lou marches, Ana and many of your listeners may know, uh, uh, work together to develop a really amazing workshop that, uh, talks about the relationship to the, uh, of the aims of the course, but the assessment criteria,
Speaker 5:uh, and,
Asheesh Misra:and then
Speaker 5:how teachers are designing their curriculum and especially assessment, uh, assessments in the course and then feedback to students around those intellectual aims in the DP course. I want to have the opportunity to observe this workshop in, in practice. So many teachers, especially new teachers to IB, uh, recognize that there's a significant distance between what they're doing in class and the intellectual aims of courses are trying,
Speaker 3:uh,
Speaker 5:to develop in students.
Speaker 3:So just as an interject here, I think from the standpoint of the teachers, do you feel like they're, um, I mean, all the IB teachers that I worked with in my school on others that I've met, there are, their intentions are very good. And, um, they would, they would say that they took the curriculum apart and said, here's the exam and here are the, the criteria that IB is asking students to meet. Um, I was an IB physics teacher. Um, and, and so what is it that they're doing wrong in a nutshell? They're just not doing, they're not assigning the right things and not putting enough time of the year into the right aspects of the course.
Speaker 5:You know, Tim talks often about the black box of IB assessment results in IB criteria. So I'm gonna let him talk about that a little bit. I right your question. So if I could interject here, I think one of the things about id the IB curriculum
Speaker 3:is
Speaker 5:fabulous, but he is very much kind of a buffet from which teachers must choose how they're going to put together the meal for their students. And so I realized this as a podcast, I'm sharing with you a visualization of or data and high how we deconstructed. So why did, I'm the IB history teacher. So what I did was kind of deconstructed and look at kids who earn far. And so you think about it, the student that kind of, you can see this on their internal assessment of five of their paper, one a four on their paper three and the four other paper too, yet that worked out to a five.
Speaker 3:Yup.
Speaker 5:And I think sometimes what we do as teachers is create to some degree, overly rigorous courses in such a way to prepare kids for everything rather than,
Speaker 3:so part of what you're just saying is there's no statistical way to approach this and they, and what you did, you just gave an example here and for the listeners, I'll just repeat it, that the internal assessment was a six paper one and uh, three, no paper, uh, three and two were fours and paper one was a five. Is that right? And it came out to
Speaker 6:a five. And so what's your, I think what I'm hearing you say is that there's no need to get them to do five level on everything. In other words, if[inaudible], if you can, uh, take an approach to what maybe that particular student's skill set is and say, you know, this kid's a great writer and there'll be great at this internal assessment or particular paper that emphasizes writing, um, and then make sure they have the basics and the others so that they can at least achieve a three or four on those so that they don't find themselves below four. Okay. That kind of what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was great. I'm sharing with you, and I realize again, I realized proven Dotcom, what we're really trying to do is, the goal is to try to get teachers to align their expectations, drive these expectations. And really, if you think about it, the most important indicator is your turtle assessment.[inaudible] all subjects, they do them in your school, you get to score that, you send those samples and IB moderates you. Right. And that's often one of the highest components. I think in general, it's the highest component of any exam score. Exactly. And what I will always say, I'll just, again, it's a podcast fucking cook that we're here. Your internal staff should always be kind of your leading indicator[inaudible] and it should always be pretty much towards the top and as it goes down it should go dammit. Lowest rate. Okay. One of the things that we talk about is that it's the variable that both the teachers and the students have the most control over. Oh, for sure. And so really what we're trying to say is like the two things that I think are the easiest places and you'll need to by the service or do anything to think about is what is your internal assessment moderation? Is it predictable?[inaudible] is it predictable? Over time you'll get moderation is not bad. You'll excuse, is it something that you can kind of go, oh, okay, basketball. I was just going to say yes, that is what happens. In fact, it's one of the biggest feedbacks, uh, that we share amongst, with between coordinators and teachers is just giving them their, there a moderation level because that gives them information so that they eventually they zero in on it. Every once in a while a year comes along with an anomaly or there's a new assessment and it takes a while to kind of recalibrate. But for the most part, teachers are within, you know, like in science, they were almost always within two to four points of a total of, yeah. So you know, to four points
Speaker 3:one way and another out of 48 is not bad.
Speaker 5:Good to deal with. Exactly. Every idea is, is it predictable? But the, the second part, I think this is what ivy teachers really kind of, I don't know if there is just there, uh, uninformed about what it's the predicted grades.
Speaker 3:Mm.
Speaker 5:Because the predicted grade matters of why, you know, we all know for like European university admission, your predicted grade matters, but more importantly for your IB score, if you lose work or if it's not complete, they'll give you the predicted grade.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And also, and the statistics are a little hard, but we're pretty close to this. If you're two marks off from your predicted, if you were predicting the seven, you get a five, all your papers will be re-read. And so I think one of the things that I think teachers need to think about is, cause I think there are some, I guess year uncomfort with, I don't want to be too high. I don't want to be too well. But you want to be honest with that score because that score will help your students. And so I think that the point of what we're trying to do at IB school, pruvit.com is help teachers give feedback to students that is in line with IB expectations. Hmm. And I'll just say for my students, you, the school I teach at, the way we look at it is this a six, a five is a B[inaudible]. And we look at that. That says, if you're getting an a in the class, we're predicting you at a six. And if you look at how the DVO says we have cut down here, we're pretty close. Okay. You're within kind of a half a point of, do you know that wine, you're pretty close. We may be a little too nice. The kids at the bottom end are we always, but that idea of being able to give you that clear expectation hm is just really what we're trying to do. And again, it's preparing you for where you're going.
Speaker 3:Right. So let me just see if I get this straight. You were saying that when you say the student has an a, they're likely to be a six.
Speaker 5:Um,
Speaker 3:is this a, you're talking about the grade that the student gets in the report card.
Speaker 5:Are you talking about, we're talking about the grade the student gets to look a partner. Poor card.
Speaker 3:Okay. So let me, yeah, go ahead. Let me show and then I have, I have, I have a comment on that. So we'll just want to,
Asheesh Misra:well, for everyone listening, I just want to throw out there that, uh, at Tim School, the, uh, the group, uh, they have a great, um, criterion based grading model, meaning that the students aren't graded on the average as they would be in a typical, uh, um, at least American high school. They're graded really the same with the IB assessment criteria would grade them. So as 50 and a 60% are not F's and D's like they are in an averaging system.
Speaker 3:Right. But to achieve a six or you know, to, to use a, to achieve a six on an IB, um, assessment criteria, that's still a very significant high quality.
Asheesh Misra:Okay.
Speaker 3:Production by the student. Um, I guess my, my question was going to be about the fact that I see a lot in at least the public schools I see here in Minnesota where, and this might be part of the problem for some schools that they, they say, well, these are great kids and they're working hard. Um, I even though they have a four that's going to be passing, so we don't want to give this, you know, kid who gets A's and all their non IB classes to come into an IB class and get a c because they have,
Asheesh Misra:sure. Yeah. And I want to be very clear that we're not promoting that grade conversion model. It after 20 years plus of experience at Tim School, they've been able to develop a really dynamic, um, ah, um, criteria and based grading model or what most people call standards based grading models.
Speaker 3:Well it doesn't happen. NYP has
Asheesh Misra:exactly. And they also have a really outstanding pre DP program so that the kids in ninth grade are writing essays using a scaffolded 12th grade DP history rubric. In 10th grade they do mock or model, um, ias. Uh, so, um, I think that was a great example of how the data's utilized, achieve success at Tim School, but we're not necessarily promoting that great conversion. And the last school that I led, we did not use that grade conversion because we, we were a very young IB school. And you all know it takes time to develop that understanding. But I want to if, okay, I want to jump back to your question, uh, which is I think the most important question of why are there so many outstanding, committed, meaningful, um, IB educators out there who just are missing the mark on developing a classroom experience that aligns to the, to success on DP exam results. And I think it goes all the way back to the story of my failure. It, uh, in the early two thousands on a Virginia state world history tests. And then my response to sort of go, what some people call power standards. I can't tell you how many classes I've seen and I'm sure you've seen this too on the many IB school visits you've done where, uh, people get so caught up in the content and the notion of rigor. Uh, I've seen IB history courses where students are reading books that I wouldn't have read till graduate school. Uh, and the there covering so much content that isn't necessarily aligned to what, uh, we'll achieve success for them on the test. Now, I'm not talking about teaching to a test. I'm talking about teaching to the assessment criteria, which develops outstanding intellectual skills for success in postsecondary education. You know, your question reminded me of one of the best brightest group of English DP teachers that I've ever worked with in the English IAA. This was many years ago, but there were five teachers who, uh, graded the ias to get a individually and year after year. They were moderated all over the place because their grades were themselves all over the place. I hired an outstanding, uh, IB English teacher from another school who was an examiner. So she had a really in depth understanding of what the assessment criteria was looking for. And after training that group of outstanding committed, dedicated teachers of exactly what the assessment criteria was looking for in terms of what our students at the school were producing. Uh, they, they weren't moderated at all the next year. Uh, and I think that's the real key is helping teams and teachers understand exactly what the assessment criteria is looking for. What we ideally like to see is, uh, folks, yes, we, we do want folks to use our, our, uh, dynamic visualization tool. Uh, but what we really think we're the best PD power is, is using this tool or your own tool, however you digest data along with scripts, getting those graded script scripts back and looking at how your students are doing and why they're performing where they are. And that's really what this tool does is it uncovers that what is for so many IB teachers a mystery about how my kids got score they got,
Speaker 3:so I did an interview with one of our other podcasts is about becoming an IB examiner or the role of the IB examiner. And I talked to the friend of mine who's recently become a film examiner. And I had known intellectually but not actually experienced that never was a IB examiner. But that in fact that role makes you so much stronger in your own classroom. And he talked about that and other IB examiners we have in Minnesota that I've talked with, you can see the results in their own schools improve. You know what it almost seems like combined with the data visualization that you have, if there was a special workshop where an examiner just examined with you, are you helped you do examiner in an IB training? It's often like one segment, like an hour and a half in a 15 hour training where you go through exams together. But if you, if there was like a whole training based on that, it seems like that would really help teachers as well
Speaker 5:to understand these criteria types. So funny you say that John, because I think one of the most powerful consultancies we offer a is to have consultants who are elite or teachers in practice who get outstanding results with diverse students. Uh, what we do is we have them read scripts from a school. So the school has to purchase the script, share them with this consultant, and then that consultant develops two days of face to face onsite professional development for the ninth through 12th grade team based on what they saw and what they didn't see as well in the students' results. Ah, so they can talk to the team about what intellectual skills students are missing. And out of that PD, uh, schools develop new scopes and sequences for ninth through 12th grade that really focused on the development of those intellectual skills. Tim, you were going to say something? Yeah, I was good shirt. Why have you, again, I know it's a podcast, but I'm sharing screen. One of the things we do is compare your IB score to your predicted grade. And so if you look at the screen, I'm sharing the bottom axis, it shows you your predicted and on the, um, the other axis, it shows you what Rexam rate is and that gives you kind of wine of best. Yup. And what you want is very little in the upper left and very little in the lower right. You want to aggregate around those best fit line. Correct. But what you want to kind of look at is every, this is really I think the power for teachers because teachers know their students and so when you click on this idea that goes vi, this student earned a exam, grade of sticks that was predicted at a four[inaudible]. That's kind of an outline. You can then use our tool to go look for that student and go, how did they actually achieve that grade? Yeah. Where did the six come from? Okay. Right. And so I think really no code where we come from as a group is go, we're trying to empower teachers to kind of explore their experience. Yes.[inaudible] because I know you know there is nobody I've worked with in this business who doesn't want to be better. Right. So go ahead. And so it's like, but they need to, they need tools that tell them how to be better. Hmm. Where can I focus? I was working with the school the other day and they had very good results. You'll their, their scores were great, but they had horrible moderation
Speaker 6:edge. If that moderation was just a little closer, the number of kids they would move from fives to sixes, from fours to fives it would have been huge. And you're talking not only about what kids feel about themselves after that course but also about college credit. And so it's just what we're trying to do in IB school improvement.com is really empowered teachers to kind of leverage themselves to move forward. So what do you do? Like you've got the right guy on the, on the phone here with you right now. Cause I see this a Tablo thing and I actually in Minnesota here I've run several workshops. I would always hold them in July once the a tab delimited files came available and I would help, I would take a crew of a dozen coordinators and I helped them arrange their datas and then do pivot tables off of it so that they could track the different papers and they accumulate up to five years or more of data from there. You know, looking back on their past results. And so I'm into this myself. But what do you do with the teacher that is not into the statistics and you know there's a lot of folks who go, well yeah, okay, yeah, I've found myself when I've done this statistical stuff. It was just there'd be the same people would come back and other people just kind of roll their eyes and say, you know, tell me what it says. How do you deal with it? Different folks who kind of have different attraction for data and and visualization certainly helps because that's the whole, that's the, the key to it is seeing it in real time. You know, some of us can look at the Garner, the graph you have in the lower left, which is a line graph with lots of data. But they love to see the colored bar graphs like you have on the top with the, the bars are a little easier to identify the changes. But is there some secret to getting people engaged with data? I don't think there's a secret. I think the secret is, and what I just shared with you was we can look at multiple years and so what you're looking at a school of multiple years. Yup. Four years of data and one of the things and get, I'm an IB history teacher, but this is my school and this is how it looks. You're looking at environmental systems, but you're looking at where they started with mass if moderation. Right.[inaudible] they've moved it closer to now. Again, they're not going to get perfect, but they're going to get closer and as they move closer, you move kids more in this direction to the right for honors. Yep.
Asheesh Misra:I think that what Tim just showed you is the actual answer to your question. I over time as different staff members, some who embrace this, others who even find it personally offensive. I think you know what I'm talking about. Uh, they begin to turn the corner when they see how dramatically other teams in the building start to achieve really dynamic success.
Speaker 3:You don't want him to do the department that has an average of three, two and other departments are all at four or five.
Asheesh Misra:Exactly. And at Tim School they actually, and this we're not suggesting that schools do this overnight, it takes time to build the culture. But at Tim's school they actually have two really huge posters when you first walk in the building, uh, that show the foreign above rate for all subjects over multiple years. Um, so it would usually just stay in the teacher's lounge. I would think. You know, I, when I was at, uh, I completed my last a graduate program in school administration, I was bragging about the way I translated data for my teachers and a presentation to the class. And then I made a comment about, uh, but of course I shared anonymously and, and so no one would know, you know, whose data it is and the professor Daniel Duke, if any of you know him at University of Virginia, hands down, the best professor had in the program. Uh, he, as he does so well, called me out and said, why is it in education? We treat colleagues like children and we don't do it in any other industry. It's in the middle of my, you know, thinking I'm so great in a way I present data and I think the key there, we all know this and what best practices are, is that it's colleagues to colleagues having these conversations. We don't like this. This tool is used by coordinators, which on average are not supervisors. I know it's not always the case who are supporting teachers and can have those real conversations. And I think back in the early two thousands, it's why I was able to listen to Tim in a meaningful way when he was sharing that state assessment data with me because he was also a teacher. He was in the classroom doing the hard work, uh, that we all are dedicated to. Uh, and you know, John very well miss, it takes time to develop the culture. But having a deep understanding is the first step two,
Speaker 3:I feel like this is something that happens all neat within the realm of the IB staff. Uh, or is this something that also, um, you get administration, principals and, and others, uh, curriculum leaders engaged in as well? Or do you kind of keep this on the IB
Asheesh Misra:level? If I may interject, I want to go back and then I may answer your question. Sure. I'm, Doug Reeves has a quote that says Odyssey is the price you pay for success. Yeah. And if you think about that, it's about the reinforced my get is from my students that come back and go, and my question I always ask is, were you prepared? And they go, Oh yeah, I, you know, the, and we, IB educators know that and they, they're going to go back and go, oh, my kids say that too. And we're so much better prepared than our peers.
Speaker 3:So do you feel there's a, you've
Speaker 6:got the straight up answer, I think, you know, I'm just speaking for, you know, the folks that, that might be listening to this and they go, well yeah, but those are your kids. You should see my room. Or you should see my kids or my neighborhood or you know, I, I've, I'm, you know, if I have a class of 28 HL students, you know, I, I can understand where I'd get maybe half of them to get a four or five, but boy, there's some kids in there that they just don't have good time management or they haven't figured it out. Um, is it as simple as saying, you know what, as a teacher I have a strategy and you give that strong encouragement upfront and demonstrate to them either through practice in the past or performance in the past or just being sticking with them and showing that you can help lift them up to the next rung of the ladder. And when you say Yoda get, it's the business ray ad my school has been working on this kind of endeavor and like you did, we started cutting apart those CSV files. No, 15 years ago using excel[inaudible] to try to give data, give data to teachers in a way that they could interpret it. And the problem is data is meaningless until it becomes information. What we believe our tool@ibschoolimprovement.com does his turn those CSV files in meaning into meaningful information. And I will just go ahead and give away our secret sauce. There are, there are three things. If you r a Yo diploma program teacher, you should look at first, what is your moderation for your internal assessment. If you are being moderated at a rate you do not understand and it's unpredictable to you, you need to go back and pull back those papers, look at them, look at the rubric and go, I need to reflect on this as a core fashional because what idea's telling me is not what's happening and the feedback I'm giving students might not be correct. You know, John, I know exactly the point you're getting and I think what Tim just said also gets it. This tool and our services and our consulting isn't about getting every kid in the classroom of seven. Well, first of all, we know that that is impossible and impossible to reach. It's about creating understanding regardless of where the kids are at and regardless of where you are. So if your kids across the board aren't performing at a high level, but your moderation, you're not being moderated, it's an indication to us. You actually do have a really strong understanding of the assessment criteria that w that's not something we see very often when students, uh, are
Asheesh Misra:performing well. But so the point, the point I'm making is this isn't about getting kids a seven. It's about creating a deep level of understanding for teachers regardless of the baseline where students are so that they can create strong a classroom instruction and especially an assessment model. It gives meaningful feedback for kids to develop those intellectual skills that are going to empower them in the future. I, anyone has ever worked with me knows that I cannot shut up about the University of Chicago 2012 analysis of how students do Chicago public schools or how the students in Chicago schools participation in the DP program correlated with college entrance and persistence. Um, it's the greatest argument for why IB is the best PR, a preparation for college for students, especially underrepresented students. And 80% of those students in the study didn't pass the diploma score, uh, yet they showed much higher as you know, John. But for listeners who haven't read it, um, they, they show much higher college entrance and persistence than anyone else. So the big picture point I'm making is the consulting we do. The tool that, that we use to support schools is all about creating a deep understanding. Some schools where it's very important for them to achieve high scores, maybe overseas their kids go to colleges where the, the scores, the entrance criteria can use it to help them get the scores that they want. But Oh, in the big picture, it's creates a deep understanding for teachers so they can ensure the feedback they're giving to kids actually helps them develop those intellectual skills that we're working towards. Right.
Speaker 3:So in fact for the listeners, I will post the link to that research study it's in, it's an ibo.org and if you could give a click on a research, they do have that under that topic and I'll add that to our podcast. So now that I'm convinced that I need your consultant,
Speaker 5:uh, what is your, because Keyer Jack, one more thing. Yeah, sure. Um, in the Edelman study answers to your toolbox and all that about regret the rigor and bachelor degree. Hey,
Asheesh Misra:okay.
Speaker 5:One of the things he made very clear is the rigor. Your high school curriculum. If the single greatest indicator of bachelor degree attainment, it's not how will you do with it? Okay. And again, I like scores. I want to get good scores. I like that. I think that's important. But the simple fact is if you sit in that class and you get a three or two or a one, you are better prepared for where you'd go. That getting an a, it a less rigorous calling,
Speaker 3:less rigorous course. Yeah. And that's kind of the argument that I've used, you know, partly out of survival. But in my own classes, for example, in physics, that when I taught physics, I, I didn't have a great average. I'm not that proud, proud of they have, which I had, but it was the same time I say no, if you've got a three physics in this physics, the rigor there was far greater than the other physics that you would have taken. And I know you're better prepared and you know, the concepts of physics better having a three. But you know, I'm, I'm intrigued by w by what you provide and what you offer in terms of this analysis. What is it, um, like kind of what is your business model? Um, and I'll certainly put links in our podcast to contact. Yeah. Both of you. Um, what is it that folks can do or is there a whole kind of menu of items that they can choose from?
Asheesh Misra:So right now, John, we, uh, the data analysis that Tim has shared with you, uh, in the screen sharing and, and for those of you listening to podcasts that he mentioned, sure.
Speaker 3:Pretty. If you're listening, just imagine pretty colors on par. Yeah.
Asheesh Misra:Um, so folks can contact us simply by going to IB school improvement.com. Uh, and it is a fee that is a fee for service product. But I will say, uh, I've had, I can't tell you how many schools, uh, are offended, but they're offended by how affordable. Uh, honestly I think, I don't want to get into numbers here on the podcast, but, uh, if anyone just wants to shoot me an email from which is available on that IB school improvement.com webpage, but then the consulting services, uh, we are just start full disclosure of really publicizing what those are on, on the webpage. Uh, we're publishing our first newsletter later this month where I'll go into a little more details about those services that we're offering, but what we're, where, you know, I used to work for the IB, I don't anymore. And I'm really excited to sort of, unapologetically, not the IB isn't, isn't direct about this, but unapologetically promote access, equity and excellence. I'm pro by providing a really nuanced, a consulting services around the specific challenges that a school faces. Uh,
Speaker 3:so one of the things that just happened and is you're aware of, I'm sure by now at the global conference in New Orleans, the director general announced that the registration fee, it goes away. And so now IB exams are only the cost of the exam itself and then in your annual fees to be part of the IB program, but that$172 savings per pupil per day test-taker we in Minnesota are chomping at the bit and I'm actually gonna have my spreadsheets out already as to how much money that will be for us in Minnesota. And some of the gifts, you know, is finding some ways to distribute that differently amongst the schools because we get some reimbursement here, uh, from the state. And as we get that reimbursement number, we have had to pile more and more money into, um, the DP exams themselves. But it hasn't allowed us as much time for training or some of the consultancies that IB offers. And I've been thinking while listening to you talk and both of you that you know that additional money that's now in the hands of, of staff members, our coordinators, um, one of the creative ways to take that, that extra money and spend it is too really make your classes better and
Speaker 6:to give the kids a better chance of success. And so the whole push was really to help with IB for all. I think that was the reason why they dropped that and made a pretty big sacrifice too. You know, leave on the table$172 per pupil. But now imagine if you took some portion of that and you applied it to making the classes better, giving the kids a better chance for success. I think this would be one of the many ways there would be too, to apply that savings.
Asheesh Misra:Well, and Kudos to you John and the whole association for working with the State of Minnesota to try to ensure that schools still have access to those resources and, and Kudos to the IB and went with the three of us I know are deeply committed. Like everyone listening to access and equity, but what a great way to help expand that.
Speaker 6:Oh, for sure. I think it's going to pay huge dividends a almost immediately if not immediately. So that I know we just, I was sitting with a number of IB folks, a couple of them from the bore our board and we were literally going, well what we should have a special meeting because they have to get the spreadsheet out and figure out how to do spree distribute that under$72. A lot of it will go to just, you know, more training and that's kind of what the teachers need the training and this is another form of that training. So. All Right, well gentlemen, I thank you. Uh, is there any final thoughts that you have a call to action? Anything you'd like folks to no before the go. So any final thoughts? Why I think we talk about like training. Yeah, you'll know fast rate your classes and I don't think those are poor box. Well, I think what we're trying to do, I think what we're trying to do, IB school, permit.com is to try to help teachers. I think if a teacher reads the IB curriculum, no matter what your subjects, you go look at that and go, wow, that is a really rich, meaningful curriculum[inaudible] and a really rich and meaningful assessment. Right. I think what happens sometimes is they get very much kind of, I think overwhelmed by it, that there's so much there and I think in some ways they tend to create an occasion overly rigorous courses[inaudible] and I think what we're trying to say is let us help you bring your expectations and your understanding of that curriculum and that assessment model in line with the IB in such a way that it would not be overly rigorous and more students will be able to access it and you will be more comfortable with it. Hmm. I think one of the analogies that I often use a metaphor is the idea
Speaker 3:of a soundboard. I think so many of us look at these rigorous courses and think all you need, you have to turn the volume to the top because that's it. But really you're using equalizer and moving the different bars up and down to find the right mix that makes the quality of the, of the music, in this case, the quality of the course. Um, really, uh, really hum along as opposed to just making it flat out harder. And that's Mary. Yeah, that's, that's the perfect analogy. I hope you don't mind if I quote you on that John. Yeah. Um, yeah. Well thank you gentlemen. Um, I'm, I wish you luck and I, and I know from, I've met, uh, sheesh personally and I know you're a very strong advocate for, for this equity movement and, and, and helping all the kids be successful. And Tim, clearly by w what you've stated here today, you are as well. So, um, I wanna thank you both for your time and thanks. Thank you so much. Have a lovely day.
Jon Peterson:You can learn much more about IB school improvement.com and other aspects of IB exams, IB related research. And the IB pre K to 12 continuum of education. Using links in our podcast notes as well as on the IB website@ivo.org you may want to listen to our podcast on the role of the IB examiner as it relates to this podcast topic as well. Please find all of our episodes, wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe so you don't miss any future programs. Follow us on Twitter at Matters Ivy. Also help us spread the word about IB by liking and sharing the ivy matters links in your own feeds and social networks in very little time. We have already been heard in over 60 countries, a testament to the global reach of the IB
Speaker 2:[inaudible].