Using the MYP Themes to Build Meaning with Adrian Von Wrede-Jervis

We are re-connecting with Adrian Von Wrede-Jervis to get his thoughts on the changes occurring in the MYP. Specifically, Adrian and I begin a conversation about the MYP themes and how we might think of them in the context of the students' learning arc.

We are planning on at least three episodes where we will start to unpack the actual themes. This will allow a little more time to help listeners find out about what's going on in those themes. 

We will take the first three themes in the next podcast, but we'll also talk a bit about how concepts can be used in those themes and how we can link learning to those transdisciplinary concepts that Adrian is suggesting. In general, how do they use concepts? 

In the final podcast, we think about the future - where does AI position itself in that future of our education?

Links:

LinkedIn post "Against learning: Reclaiming a language for education in an age of learning" 

link to the Immordino-Yang study on how she discovered "transcendent thinking"

           Follow-up to this article in Scientific American

The Affective Learning Lab - Influential in Adrian's thinking 

Finally, Adrian's article in LinkedIn writing about how his thinking on concepts has changed

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Transcript

Adrian VJ 0:00

I think we learn through story. I think

Intro and welcome

Adrian VJ 0:02

we are a storytelling species. Teen brains are grow and physically change shape and learn better when they attach meaning to what they're learning.

Jon Peterson 0:13

Hi folks. Welcome back to Ivy Matters. And I'm bringing back a guest from maybe five, six years ago. His name is Adrian von Vreda Jervis. And he is in Namibia right now teaching. And the reason I found Adrian refound him again is that back when we first talked, we talked about ATLs. He was on a couple different podcasts. And I found him to be a really good thinker about IB things and reshapes and reframes things in a different context for people. And he spends a lot of deep thinking and so on about these things. And now, as many of you listeners know, the MYP is going through changes again with the enhancements. I found on LinkedIn his posts, and he's got a series of posts, which we'll link in the show notes. I want to welcome Adrian back, and we're just going to chat. In fact, there's a plan to do several podcasts on some of this thinking. So welcome Adrian. And why don't you reintroduce yourself to people, talk about where you're from and what you're doing in your role right now?

Adrian VJ 1:09

So yeah, it's now my fourth year. It's about to come into the fourth year of being in Namibia. My wife is actually originally from Namibia. So when the chance came to move here, we took it up. And I'm working at the FinTuk International School. The other encouragement for me to go there was I knew that they were looking at the MYP. So I was there as they brought the MYP in. So we are now the first time that Namibia has got MYP in the country. We got accredited for a year or so, and we're in that phase of developing units. And then we're actually in now the iteration phase of trying to add value to the uh the units that we are teaching.

Jon Peterson 1:53

Yeah. Well, and you're the, as I was noticing, you're the MYP coordinator for the school, right? And so, yeah, and you know, as those of you that know MYP know that it is, there's a the understanding of the of the of the arc of the whole program is important to every teacher and every department. And also the idea that, you know, I find it's it's kind of the, I've said this in other podcasts, it's kind of the central DNA of IB. So if you get a good grasp and a good understanding of where you're going with MYP, you're gonna know kind of where it's coming from in the PYP and where it's going to in the diploma program. And I credit you to be doing this work because I'm sure it's a benefit to your staff there to have someone who thinks about this stuff as well as you do.

Adrian VJ 2:34

Yeah, I mean, I was kind of forced into that. In the last school, I was a director of continuum learning. And what that meant was I had to understand the PYP and the DP. And in fact, I was a DP coordinator before that. So I really I'd rather say I had to try and understand the MYP. Yeah. And it was a complex beast to get my head around. And certainly it's a challenge to be sandwiched between two quite wildly different courses, the being very content heavy and the PYP very much inquiry-driven. So it really forces you to try and figure out how do you balance between these two different programs and what's the role of MYP there.

Jon Peterson 3:12

Well, it's a good metaphor for the kids themselves in the arc of their own lives. You know, it's a tough time to be a kid, but that age when they're transitioning from one thing to the other. And MYP is, I think, a pretty fair attempt at doing that. But as you've done, it takes some thinking and it always isn't what's on the paper. And that's what I appreciate about having you here. As I said earlier, I think the reason, and we're thinking about a few episodes, probably three right now, about this. And as I found and as I was reading about this, I just thought we should give voice to this thinking. From my understanding and experience with you in the past, you're very open to other people giving input and talking about it and having the conversation. And hopefully this will lead to some of that for you.

Adrian VJ 3:52

Yeah, 100%. Absolutely, 100%.

Jon Peterson 3:54

Adrian is a great follow on LinkedIn. I'd suggest that you go there. He posts quite often and he posts about really cool things. And then if you're an IB person, there's a lot there for you to chew on. So why don't we go ahead and get started,

Striking a balance between knowledge and concepts

Jon Peterson 4:06

Adrian, and why don't you talk about the stuff you've been talking about and what we're planning to talk about today, about the balance a little bit between concepts and knowledge and some of the arguments going on there and some of the good thinking going on.

Adrian VJ 4:18

I mean, I think in the same sort of way that you find NYP that I described in this sort of balance act between the DP and the PYP, I think education as a whole is in this balance act between two what are being projected as being very disparate arguments. One is the community that is convinced that there isn't enough knowledge in our curriculum, that we've moved too far towards the sort of ephemeral skills and the notion that we're sort of trying to jump and over uh content to get to critical thinking. And I think with the advent of AI, there are some advocates that have even embraced that idea that, well, now we've got a machine that will give us all knowledge, then we just need to train for critical thought. Right. Which of course gets these sort of what we I would refer as the knowledge-rich folks, gives them well, they get apoplectic at that. Yeah, yeah.

Jon Peterson 5:21

Um nightmares.

Adrian VJ 5:23

And so in a certain way, I think MYP gets projected as being sort of a polar opposite to something like the IGCSE alternative. And I think some of those knowledge-rich folk would prefer that we stuck to a curriculum that was more focused on knowing those parts, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's a false dichotomy, to be honest. Um but I I I have some criticism as well of some of the ideas that the knowledge only the crowd pretend to focus on. In particular, I I'm I'm I'm not the greatest fan of the notion of cognitive load theory. And perversely, that's because I think it's correct. It's necessary to understand it, but it's not sufficient.

Jon Peterson 6:18

Okay.

Adrian VJ 6:19

And I think the way that it projects learning as being essentially a memory task that we have to get this knowledge somehow past our working memory into our long-term memory. I mean, we have to sort of trick our brain into being able to recall the knowledge that we have. I think that's that's a dangerous way to present knowledge.

Jon Peterson 6:47

And that, yeah, that thought, you know, I can remember from way back in my learning days of teacher school, is that there's kind of the bucket theory, the idea that you opened up the head and you filled it with stuff. And we depended on the human nature and human intelligence to connect the dots. And then, of course, with MYP over the years, there's been the discussion of conceptual learning and start with the concepts and then go draw from or learn enough so you can do the concepts things. So this is interesting to me that it kind of was it's almost like it's a pendulum swinging back and forth.

Adrian VJ 7:19

Well, in some ways, I think that's where NYP did itself a disservice. I think a lot of training was on we start from the concepts and then we work down to our unit plans. Right, right. And I don't think that's very helpful. I think that's a swing, like you describe it, as a pendulum too far the other direction. So I describe to the folks that I work with that I'm a knowledge first coordinator. Yeah, but I'm not, that's not the end goal. That's not the purpose of learning. The purpose of learning is not to, as you described for the bucket. The purpose is bigger and broader than just that. And learning, as described by cognitive life theory, I think, misses a massive element, and that is the emotional element of learning.

Jon Peterson 8:10

Okay.

Adrian VJ 8:12

I think they're starting to factor that in more, but it's too still obsessed by propositional learning. It's not as informed as it could be about embodiment, it's not as informed about salience and the importance of making meaning from what we are engaging with, the knowledge that we're engaging with. I think the example that to me makes itself evident is I can remember my wedding, but I don't have to do space repetition to be able to do that. And I would say that I can remember more elements than the suggested working memory allows me or suggest that I should be allowed to remember. I think that's because it was meaningful. I think we when we are involved in a meaningful learning experience, we learn a lot more than the model suggests. So it's it's a component of how we learn, but it's not the full story.

Jon Peterson 9:16

So can you kind of tease that out a little bit when it you know as you think about these different ways of kind of

What makes learning meaningful?

Jon Peterson 9:23

finding that middle ground? What is it that makes that meaning that learning meaningful? How do you attach meaning? How do you guide students to find more meaning and what the content might be saying?

Adrian VJ 9:34

I think cultural anthropologists would just ask us to consider how we learn as a species and whether the modern education system is a good reflection of how we got to where we are now. I think we learn through story. I think we are a storytelling species. It's evident when I wrote to you, I mentioned that there are two big, two big fan people, people that I'm a massive fan of. That's first is Professor Mary Helen Imadino Yang. She, if folks haven't heard her, they should Google her and they should read her article about how teen brains are grow and physically change shape and learn better when they attach meaning to what they're learning. That emotions are vital to the learning process. And in fact, more evidence is coming that this is a whole body learning experience. There's neurons in the gut, and we have a whole body leaked experience when we're learning something.

Jon Peterson 10:39

If you have a chance, could you send that article to me so I can put it in the show notes so people can find it?

Adrian VJ 10:43

Yeah, in the show notes. And what she showed that was over time, not only did the brain grow, but their sense of well-being grew when they were able to situate themselves in the story of what was being taught or what they were trying to learn. And they could find that oh, I identify moment, she calls it transcendent thinking. Self-supported developmental growth, which at the end of the day, I think is the purpose of education. I don't think I also get quite worried by the constant talk about whether education is fitting the future of work, because I actually don't think that's the point. I think it's the future of civilization that education is there for. It's wider than just simply what my employer wants, but what does the planet need right now component. And the other component is the writings of Fiesta, and I'll also add some references in there in the t-shirt as well, but he talks about the importance of what he calls um subject subjectification, which is not a it's not the easiest term, but it's suggesting that if the student can place themselves as the subject of their own learning, they that's a vital part of an educational process. And I agree. Yeah. So those I'm kind of I'm swung very much by those ideas. Yeah.

Jon Peterson 12:28

And they're definitely connected to each other. I think you said self-determined growth, right? And then putting yourself at the center of your learning. I mean, those are kind of saying the same thing different ways, and it's lovely that there are different uh writers, you know, kind of it seems like there's a convergence as you've been thinking about. Yeah.

Adrian VJ 12:47

And I think so, therefore, the synthesis of these two sort of antithetical ideas is that knowledge is vitally important, but only if it becomes situated in the child's life.

Jon Peterson 12:57

And that's the nuance that I like to add into how I as I, you know, I'm I'm on my screen for my own purposes. I've got one of your LinkedIn articles up here on the side. And you've done a nice job of kind of creating these visuals, taking it back to the MYP and the narrative arc of the MYP themes, as you say. It seems like what you're talking about right now is kind of that first part there, the idea of looking inward, discovery of self, and then kind of you're gonna we're gonna be talking about more things. Is that where you're kind of going with this? I'm trying to get into your brain there a little bit.

Adrian VJ 13:30

Yeah, 100%. So maybe I should like once we've kind of knocked that bit out, I should maybe just talk a little bit about my journey with these themes. Because although for most people they've just come out as a kind of a new thing, I had been doing my own explorations into what I had called at my school conceptual themes. There's an awful lot more flexibility than people necessarily know or appreciate in the MIP. So, although there were have always been these key and related concepts, and there's been some assumptions that we had to make sure that we were covering them all, and that we had to cover only those. And that sort of straying from the orthodoxy was not really well accepted. That's not been true. We have been given a lot of flexibility in terms of the concepts that we can use, and so I tried looking for some shared, more transdisciplinary concepts than some of the ones that we had. They weren't overlapping. And I think that's what we talked about those five years ago of were the concepts suitably overlapping to enable better transfer. I developed a set of concepts that we were using inside of a school, and I called them, I grouped them in themes. In fact, we had seven. I had shared it with IB, but I think it went into the melting pot as part of all of the various that they've been looking at. And if they did use it, they've come out with something better than I had. These six, and six is by the way, a better number than seven, isn't it? If it's lines of postals and everything, but they came out with six that not only sort of grouped ideas, I think, in a better manner, but I read the six and went, they flow one to the other. Now, whether that was intentional by them, they would have to comment. All that happened is that I had seen a post by somebody who had attended the Mumbai conference, they'd listed them, and I read them and went, that's a story. It's literally a journey, those themes. And those labels didn't have any transdisciplinary concepts attached to them. I've added my own. So please, I mean, the listeners must know that this is not canon, it's not canonical in my writing. Just my way I'm unpacking in my head what could be done.

Jon Peterson 16:06

So here's this is again what I really enjoy about kind of connecting with you. And you just mentioned it too, is that folks have more freedom than they expect. And I do a lot of workshops and sit in the back of the room while I watch teachers go through training. And, you know, there's different types of educators. Some just want to fill in the blanks and tell me what to do, and it's like a mad lib to them. But they, when you internalize the big concepts here and the ideas that MYP is trying to get through, there is a wide open space for people like yourself and others to make it their own. And obviously, using those kind of the six areas there, thread it together as you as it works for you and your space where you are in the relatively new program. You need to get people's head around what the big picture is. And this is a great way to do it. And it fits you, and it it fits you personally, and it fits your staff, and and IB will be very happy with the results, I'm sure.

Adrian VJ 17:00

Yeah, I think if we backtrack to what we were talking about, that learning involves meaning. Well, if learning involves meaning, then as teachers we must have meaning.

Jon Peterson 17:09

Oh, absolutely.

Adrian VJ 17:10

And so, yeah, I having that flexibility to to make sense of it for yourself is is one of the one of the privileges of working in the MIP for me.

Jon Peterson 17:20

Yeah. It's really cool. And I'm going to share this with everyone I see. The Mumbai conference has come up a few times. It was, I think, a significant one. It sounds like that whoever was in the room that day was lucky, and that room has grown to a global space. I'm here in Denver, but these are evergreen episodes. And I am looking at my schedule ahead and hoping I can find that room that was in Mumbai, you know, here.

Adrian VJ 17:45

Yes.

Jon Peterson 17:46

Yeah.

Adrian VJ 17:48

Yeah.

Jon Peterson 17:48

So I don't know if you want to continue with talking through the middle space between the knowledge and concepts, or if you want to move forward into some of the other things that we wanted to chat about in this first episode.

Adrian VJ 18:00

I think when you approached me the idea of actually doing the podcast thinking of talking about knowledge richness, but then as a bit of an addict to the LinkedIn scroll, I noticed that there was a new publication out by that community. And what I found fascinating was that they have developed in their own thinking and I think converged. They talk about schema a lot more than they had. They talk about the vertical and horizontal

Exploring the themes

Adrian VJ 18:32

articulation of big ideas. And yeah, I think we're coming closer together, which is really encouraging. And what I see in these themes is the possibility of horizontal and vertical, a framework that facilitates the horizontal and vertical sharing of big ideas.

Jon Peterson 18:54

Do you mind if I just take time out to read the themes so that you know in case someone's listening and doesn't have them in front of them, I'm looking at your post and you have the six proposed themes here. They are growing through experiences and belonging, connecting time, place, and space, expressing diverse perspectives, exploring innovations and impacts, examining complexity in systems, and shaping the future with hope. That last one's kind of intriguing, isn't it? They all are, but that last one is kind of like a cool way to set off. Yeah. Um, yeah, so go ahead.

Adrian VJ 19:27

Um I kind of looked at those six, I further saw them in three groups of two, or pairs, perhaps. Right. I think one is really about looking inward at your own identity. The second one is looking at time, place, and space and how that has influenced societies. It's an introspection of the self, an introspection of society. How do we get to where we're at at the moment? So it's kind of like a looking inward. Then you turn outwards, you start listening to the perspective of others, which I love that they've made a theme that is coherent with their mission.

Jon Peterson 20:02

Mission, yeah, absolutely. You write about that in the LinkedIn posts, which is neat.

Adrian VJ 20:07

And then looking at how we also try to have, I think, in very, and the way I've interpreted it in a very well-meaning attempt to improve our society, but innovation has been from our inception, has been all about trying to make things better, but there's have been far too many unintended consequences. And I'm for those that do end up following me, you'll get some of these posts, but you'll be also bothered by a lot of my botherings over the threat to our planetary boundaries, environmental and the social and political crises that we face. And innovation hasn't been a smooth journey for us. No, no. Um I think the latter two, but what I love about them, and I love that at the last one ends in hope, is about looking to the future. How do we do a better job of what we've done so far? That's what I see that doing. So we move from looking outwards to actually looking to the future with hopefully some wisdom from what we have.

Jon Peterson 21:17

Yeah, and I've been in meetings the last couple of days here, and we've been hearing from the director general and then some of the directors. In fact, is it HAFEF that's your your regional director? They're talking about the new course in the 16 plus, it's on, it's been a it's been approved, it's on systems, about systems change and innovation. And so I can really see the the forward looking as to, you know, as with when you're transitioning to DP courses and the more content oriented, having a skill set built in in these themes about looking forward and about looking at partnering with systems, you know, the kids are asked in that course to really look at systems around them and see if they can improve upon them and understand how they work.

Adrian VJ 21:58

And this is ultimately The problem with dis disembodied or dis decontextualized knowledge because well, I you know what what's the aim of the syllabus that we have? Is it just simply you know to do well on a memory test, or is it to be functionally good for our shared planet? That's that that to me is where knowledge should be directed now. I think that is the higher priority than just mere accumulation.

Jon Peterson 22:28

Well, that's one of the things that I think any self-respecting educator has to put their teaching and what their mission is as a teacher in context with what they see around them. And you know, if you're just opening up the book that the government-issued curriculum is telling you to teach and you're not connecting it, it's malpractice. You know, you know, you referenced your posts, and I've seen those too, and it's clearly connected to what we're talking about, the idea that a student needs to know where they are and look at innovation and also understand the limits to knowledge and how it's used. And do you want to talk a little bit about that the comment that we have in our notes about the difference between stupidity and ignorance?

Stupidity vs Ignorance

Adrian VJ 23:08

I read a post the other day, and I thought what sparked it, and that is that stupidity is a function of knowledge, whereas ignorance is just the absence of it. What it was basically suggesting, this is the kind of the argument, it seems a little banal, but I think as you think on it longer, it unpacks itself, but it talks about a stone. A stone we don't attribute to being knowledgeable, right? But we also don't call stones stupid.

Jon Peterson 23:36

Right.

Adrian VJ 23:36

And the more we become knowledgeable about the world, the more dangerous we can become. I think the whole premise of Oppenheimer, isn't it? That we have this wonderful capacity to really do amazing things, but at the but with that capacity of knowledge grows the capability of doing some really stupid things. And obviously, we have done some very, very stupid things if we're in the state that we're in at the moment. If we are crashing through seven of nine planetary boundaries, if we have the political problems and the economic problems that we are facing and will face, then we've made errors and we've done stupid things in the past. And ignorance is relatively harmless in that regard. You don't really have the capacity to do world-changing events if you don't really have the start sticking your fingers in it if you're ignorant. And so what I've I think we I never, when I was at school, and I haven't often seen it as I continue in school, seen these wider conversations happening about societal transformation and the impact of the decisions that we make. And certainly there are some subjects where people are even aghast that you might be suggesting that you do. I give you uh

Bringing context to the learning in any subject

Adrian VJ 25:05

one of the comments that came up was to one of the first posts is do you imagine math teachers having a conversation about societal transformation while they're busy trying to cover geometry and algebra? And I think that's a pretty devastating assessment of uh current practice. And I say devastating because I think we ought to be. I think whatever our discipline is, we are able to help students see its wider relevancy and to see the importance of using it in a ethical manner. And so, yeah, and to not just impart the knowledge of your subject, but the wisdom that comes, the wisdom to know how to use it, how to use it, yeah. Responsibility, yeah.

Jon Peterson 26:03

That's all teachers. And again, it certainly returns us to the mission of the IB, a better, more peaceful world, and just the idea of more knowledgeable group of students. And so when you do that and you say, okay, and again, going back to what I was saying about being in a lot of workshops, a lot of folks are kind of doing their teaching that way, you know. And I think that's what's so great about having at least the IB training, whether it be MYP or DP or whatever, to give them permission to go beyond what maybe the way they were taught, which is just, you know, can you answer these questions correctly? But really to know, okay, why do you need to know the answers to these questions and to what use is it for you and for people around you?

Adrian VJ 26:44

Listen, John, I think we've spent some time unpacking the philosophical justification for why to teach in this manner. I'm gonna go slightly reductive now because it's on the assessment. I just want to read out to you one of the questions that comes up, and this may only just affect those schools that are doing e-assessment, but it does show the value or the thinking that IB wants out of IB schools. This was from a May 24 interdisciplinary exam, and it asked the question, those that don't know, schools are sent on the 1st of April, which is an amusing date, they get sent the pre-release material, a set of pre-release materials, which is some case studies, some readings, videos

A sample question showing what kind of thinking the IB is after

Adrian VJ 27:33

about a theme. In May 24, that theme was about information and disinformation and how that influences society. When they do that, they assign two subjects to we were warned that the questions will look at it from the perspective of two different subjects. And that year it was mathematics and language and literature. And so students kind of prepare themselves for the types of questions that will be asked. This was question one. It says, discuss how mathematics and language and literature contribute to the monetization of disinformation. And in your answer, you must explain how mathematics contributes to the monetarization of disinformation. And the same then also for language and literature. But it also then it says, explain how does the synthesis of both subjects impact on the monetarization of disinformation and ask them to use the related concepts from both mathematics and language and literature. And they gave the list of all of the related concepts to support your answer. I'm a T OK teacher as well. This means like a T O K.

Jon Peterson 28:41

Yeah. You know, you mentioned that not very many people, you know, if you're not doing e-assessment, and sometimes here in North America, it's not not very much uptake on e-assessment, but I've when I've had a chance, I've gone into some of these sample questions because it, like you said, this is the way what IB is thinking and what they want MYP to produce is this kind of thinking. And you should know that whether or not you're doing e-assessments. You know, it's this is this gives you really a good endpoint to aim towards. What an amazing question.

Adrian VJ 29:08

But a deep, deep question. And and for some, I've shared it among some people and shared it actually on a TOK discussion forum. And there was some shock at, you know, what was NYP aiming at doing. And they said, look, we got IGCSC students, we wouldn't be at all thinking about doing something like that. And then the question comes up, you know, is this appropriate for 16-year-olds? But I think it's deeply important. I I don't I think that a 16-year-old should be getting that level of starting to become aware of the world around them, starting to be able to baby steps, but start to deconstruct what's going on in a in a in an issue that's that's affecting them. And they do amongst themselves, they're doing that. If you sit with I find this when I sit with kids and I ask them, I'm a science teacher, so we're teaching the importance of fertilizers. And then as we're in that topic, the whole Straits of Human situation arose, and we were able to start, you know, they they were able to look at how, well, if oil gets cut off, oil is one of the precursors for fertilizer. What's this going to do to our food? What's this going to do to our economies? They're having these discussions because they can. They're able, but we we don't often give them that space to see and talk about these bigger ideas. I think these themes are a great opportunity to just spend some time, not

Where we are going next and conclusion

Adrian VJ 30:46

change entire courses because going back to the beginning of our conversation, the key knowledge is important, but that key knowledge must sort of sit within this purpose of well, why do I need to know how maths works? Why are we doing, you know, and I think what was what if you look at the key concepts that maths has, and the best answers were looking at, well, you know, algorithms, patterns, how do we choose to prioritize some mathematical data and influence certain perspectives because of the way that we represent our data. Those students that are able to get to that level, I think are also learning better the basics. So I don't see these two uh things as competing.

Jon Peterson 31:38

I think I see them as walking hand in hand, supporting the Yeah, you can't use the terminology and throw around the idea of algorithms and model presentation and data representation without having knowledge based, kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, thanks, Adrian. So we've really kind of just started the conversation as we hinted at earlier. We'll probably be doing three episodes of this. And there's, you know, this is uh a place to kind of I think switch over. We'll we'll wrap this one up, but but let's let's talk a little bit about or why don't you tell us a little bit about where we're going with the next couple episodes.

Adrian VJ 32:17

So the thinking from my side was that we should start to unpack the actual themes. We should spend a little bit more time helping our listeners to find out about what's going on in those themes. I thought that we would take the first three themes in the next podcast, but also to talk a bit about how concepts can be used in those themes and how we can link learning to those transdisciplinary concepts that I'm suggesting, but in general, how do they use concepts? And then the last podcast to talk about as we think about the future, where does AI position itself in that future of our education?

Jon Peterson 33:01

Okay. Well, we'll be doing that, and I think with our schedules and such, it might be a couple of weeks before we get back to it. I'm not sure exactly when this will be published, but listeners, just stay tuned and watch the it'll be posted in LinkedIn as well. So I'm sure you'll be able to find it there, but it'll be also in our podcast feed here at IB Matters. So thanks again, Adrian, for being part of this and rejoining me in our podcast journey here. And as I said up top, I'm just extremely excited to reconnect with you and share the thinking that I think is so important to have here with our audience.

Adrian VJ 33:31

That's my pleasure. It's fun. I love these talks. They also consolidate some of my own way of looking at the I love your questions.

Jon Peterson 33:40

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