In all the years we have been working with individuals to get a handle on their debt and finances medical debt has been a large part of it. Not just the huge bills that we hear about but even the simple co-pays or co-insurance that can throw a families budget out of whack.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington, MD an internal medicine physician and medical billing expert. With more than 20 years experience in primary care, psychiatric settings, and as a health insurance executive, Virgie has made it her life goal to help patients navigate the conundrum that is the U.S healthcare system.
Chase very recently navigated the healthcare system as his wife, Keri went through treatment for stage 4 colon cancer. This episode is a very personal one and one we all need to hear.
In all the years we have been working with individuals to get a handle on their debt and finances medical debt has been a large part of it. Not just the huge bills that we hear about but even the simple co-pays or co-insurance that can throw a families budget out of whack.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington, MD an internal medicine physician and medical billing expert. With more than 20 years experience in primary care, psychiatric settings, and as a health insurance executive, Virgie has made it her life goal to help patients navigate the conundrum that is the U.S healthcare system.
Chase very recently navigated the healthcare system as his wife, Keri went through treatment for stage 4 colon cancer. This episode is a very personal one and one we all need to hear.
Welcome to Talk Wealth To Me, a safe space podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance, The Information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:How are your kids doing Chase?
Chase Peckham:You know, they are, they're doing remarkably well. Um, considering, um, it's still, we have good days and bad days. And, um, but, but no, the lows aren't too low. Um, the highs aren't too high, which is a good thing too. Um, uh, but we were, we, we were very deliberate when she was diagnosed to involve them in the entire journey, uh, and not try to protect them from what we knew could be inevitable. We didn't know, but the real truth was when you have liver, when you have cancer in your liver, from the colon cancer, there's a decent chance. She's not gonna live a long life. Um, I mean, we didn't know if that was one year or two years, 10 years, but at, we knew that she wasn't gonna really, she was never gonna survive this unless there was just some major medical or, or we were lucky enough to be able to get her liver transplant or something like that. Um, so we really included them in, in the entire process, including down to when she really got sick again and was in the hospital in and out and you know, how they wanted to handle, uh, her, her services and how they wanted to handle all the different, like celebration of life and where she wanted to be in hosp. I mean, literally down to all the stuff that there was never anything left unsaid. So I,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:That's a blessing.
Chase Peckham:They have done, you know, there's not, there's not gonna be any well, they came back at me and they made a decision to leave mom at the hospital. And I really wanted to be with her when she got, you know, there was, there's gonna be none of that because we, what we really just have is, is the loss of it. The gaping hole that they don't have their mom anymore at 14 years old and 12 years old. And that in itself is gonna be the, the biggest challenge that we face. Uh, and the fact that we all just, I mean, loved to each other is, I mean, more than you can possibly, um, imagine. Um, but that, that being said, um, I was so excited to, to talk with you about this subject that we're gonna talk about today. And it was because at the time, when I was introduced to your book, when I was introduced to you, it, we were in the middle of it. Uh, we were there, Keri and I, she hadn't quite got sick yet. Um, and when, I mean not sick yet, we were going through treatments. We had gone through chemotherapies. We were going through different new treatments. We were seeing lots of doctors, but she hadn't really been quote unquote sick yet. She looked normal. If, if, if you just met her on the street, if you didn't, you know, she covered it up most of the time. But if you didn't notice the little bump where the pump,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:The port,
Chase Peckham:Where the port was for her chemo, you never, in a million years, would've known that she was sick and she never stopped. I mean, we were lucky she was young. And so she could handle the chemotherapy very well. Um, she didn't lose her hair. Um, all of it, I mean, it got thinner, but she didn't lose all of it. Um, and she lived her life day to day for a good year. Uh, never missed a day of work, was fully involved with the kids. There was, I mean, the kids almost forgot if we didn't have that treatment every two weeks, then you, you know, as outsiders, Keri never forgot, believe me, believe me. And neither did I, but from the outside world, there were a lot of friends who knew, but, you know, she handled everything so well, but yet we were doing chemotherapy every two weeks. We were seeing specialists. We were seeing and believe me, Keri and I spent a lot of money on our own outside of the, in incre. And we were very lucky that we have good health insurance.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:An you have the resources.
Chase Peckham:Quote, unquote, good health insurance, and believe me, I have yet, this is what I can't wait to talk about. I have yet to get a, every time I open up a letter from U from UC healthcare system or Scripts, cuz we were part of both at one point I get shivers cuz I don't know what I'm gonna get. I don't know how big and how many zeros are gonna be on that. And it does scare me. Um, and yet my wife is already gone. So I'm gonna be paying for something that is, I, I know that I, I, not that I didn't get a benefit out of. I just know that we're at the end of our road and yet my journey bill wise and financially is far from over.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yes sir
Chase Peckham:That is something that is, shouldn't be in the back of my mind when I'm grieving and, and but, but it is, it's the reality of, of where we're at. And so I, I am, I, I just, I went through your books. I, it was so easy to read and it was so, and I, and I know that it's probably not something anybody's gonna read unless they're in that situation. Right,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Exactly.
Chase Peckham:It's kind of like what we do for a living when people don't come to us to talk about personal finances and putting a, a budget together or, or talking about their credit,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Things are going great.
Chase Peckham:Unless<laugh> things are hitting, uh, are hitting a critical point. But uh, your book, what your doctor wants you to know to crush medical debt was, oh my gosh, what an enlightening and heartbreaking. And, but yet an educational book all at the same time, but the stories and I'm sure there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of stories just like them.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And I, I have to thank you, um, for having me on and sharing your story because one of the biggest, biggest things, um, I talk about, you know, I have a lot of motto, many, many models. One of my, you know, I say is, you know, um, because 80 to 90% of every single medical bill that's generated, the United States have mistakes errors that are not in the favor of the American public, not in favor of the patient. Most Americans, even those of us with awesome insurance. We think we have great insurance that we're protected. No with great insurance. Most Americans are just one serious illness, serious diagnosis or one accident or injury away from a lifetime of debt or bankruptcy, but definitely a lifetime of debt and stress,
Chase Peckham:Right? I mean, and that's added stress that you, you are already taking on because you're sick and your family is stressed because you're sick.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Exactly. And there's endorphins, there's issues. You know, you you're be, if you weren't sick before you're sick, when you open the bill, right? The stress is significant and Felipe apologies. I don't want to be ignoring you it's wanna say greetings
Felipe Arevalo:<laugh> it's okay. I, I, I I'll sit on the sidelines sometimes, but I, I do think that you mentioned even people with good medical insurance, because I think sometimes the idea of just having medical insurance is, I mean, it's a good thing and, and they can keep you out of most regular every day medical, uh, emergencies turning into, you know, a big financial issue because anything really, I mean, a broken arm or finger, if you don't have insurance can really mess up someone's finances, but.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Right.
Felipe Arevalo:I found it interesting that even with good medical insurance, a, a major something that was already going to be life changing diagnostic would, I mean, it it'll mess up. Someone's finance.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Exactly. Even if you survive it physically, you're not gonna survive financially. If you don't have, unfortunately, you know, in the United States, without medical financial literacy, there's no financial stability in, in your family. And, um, if you don't, you know, Felipe to your point where you're going with that is yeah. Um, it, the having great insurance gives you false confidence thinking, oh, I'm good. I'm covered. And, and you know, yeah, the, the odds are that you won't have a serious illness or accident, but life happens. Life happens. And, um, just because you you're sick, you didn't elect, this is not consumer debt. Is that consumer bills. Um, it devastates your, if your family is left with financial devastation,
Felipe Arevalo:And I think there's not a lot of education around the topic, even some of us who might consider ourselves somewhat smart. I, if you start looking at medical billing things, um, you know, just having helped my grandfather through some medical things years ago, I'm sitting there looking at it and I have no clue what I'm reading half the time this
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Doty go right, is Greek.
Chase Peckham:Unless you're an accountant that understands what they're. Yeah. It's, it's almost at
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:To your point Chase. I'm glad you said accountant and not someone who's in the medical field or a physician.
Chase Peckham:No, they don't know.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Because these things are created. The whole system is created by being counters. And now, you know, accountants, it's not at all controlled by physicians. Physicians have no idea what's going on because most of us are employed by the bean counters. And by increasingly by guys and turtlenecks trying to create efficiencies and make more money. So yes, sir, you, you hit it right on the head. Yeah. Unless you're, uh, a bean counter who create, you know, they create, um, the, so just basically, so insurance is risk, right? It's just gambling, you know, and so they're professional risk adjusters and professional gamblers, right? Uh, professional bean counters. And so the problem is in the United States, the for profit healthcare system is run by for for-profit publicly traded commercial health insurance companies. And with this, with this system, if you, uh, you risk death or early death in dying, if you cannot pay their bills period. And so that's why we're the only, um, industrialized country in the world that needs to have medical financial literacy. But we don't know it, the 99% of the American public, we don't realize it.
Chase Peckham:There's no doubt. It's very similar to, to the credit industry that lends money, that's risk and reward, right? They're lending money to all different types of people. Now, it's obviously a lot more complicated when it comes to the insurance, but it is, uh, a, a risk reward
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Thing. And, you know, frankly, chase, that's a choice at the end of the day.
Chase Peckham:That's true. That's a very good point too.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You know, it's a choice, you know, good, bad indifferent. There's a reason why, but no one chooses to get sick,
Chase Peckham:No.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:One chooses to get injured period. And, and, you know, taking advantage of people when they're at their most vulnerable is just the most unethical, immoral. And just it's to me, it's a crime, it's a sin
Chase Peckham:That is very well said.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:That's another story for another day. I get off my soapbox.
Chase Peckham:Well, no, I mean, this is where you're supposed to air out your soapbox. This is why we do this. Uh, I, I, I, you know, my personal story, I have to tell you, I, I, until Keri got diagnosed to your point earlier, I had really never had to experience medical bills at all outside of my copays, that I, my children went to their pediatrician, my wife and I did our, our yearly, uh, things. The kids might have had a ER visit because of a, you know, possible jungle gym broken arm or something like that, which didn't happen, but still that's a$500 copay. And you mentioned earlier that there are a lot of people I'm lucky in the situation where my wife and I are both employed. And we're in a position where the$500 is not life changing for us,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Or co-insurance many plans now, especially if you have to get your insurance through the marketplace, you know, gig economy, freelancing,.
Chase Peckham:Yeah.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You know, people that don't have insurance because they're trying to launch their own business and, and have their financial futures in their hands. They have to go through the marketplace, all of the marketplace, ACA, um, or Obamacare, people call it the federal marketplace to buy your insurance. All of them have co-insurance. So you're on the hook for a portion of whatever it costs. So yeah, not just copay, but also for many of us co-insurance.
Chase Peckham:So let's kind of digest this because, you know, we can't obviously go through your whole book in the 45 minutes or so hour that we have here, but you break it down in three basic chapters or three different levels and.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Three steps,
Chase Peckham:Steps. That's the great, sorry.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yes, sir. No worries.
Chase Peckham:The first part is to, and this was the most incredible thing to me, Phil, Phil Felipe, men mentioned it earlier that you can look at a bill and you have no idea, but here's one thing that I will tell you that the doctors for us, for Keri and I were so amazing, and I'm sure they would get in trouble if, and I don't know if they would get in trouble, but they told us never to sign a thing before.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yes!
Chase Peckham:Before never sign a thing. If you're in a hospital or out, they're gonna treat you regardless.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yes.
Chase Peckham:And then, so we were, and when I read that part to you, I went, oh amen, I never would've known that because you're stressed out. You, you, you, you're in an emergency room where there's lots of sick people. You're freaking out. You're like, what are we gonna do?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You're sick and in sever pain.
Chase Peckham:And they're like, here, you're sign this. And you're like, yeah, sure. Whatever I need to do.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Exactly. Don't sign anything. Don't sign anything. And then yes. Thank you so much. That's one of my biggest, my biggest issues. I talk, I have a radio show and I, I talk about these issues every week. So yes, we talk about a lot of things. I alternate with what your medical debt doctor wants you to write. Talk about this stuff, alternating with, you know, what your pediatrician wants you to know what your cardiologist wants you to know, da da, da, blah. So on the weeks where I talk about what your medical debt doctor wants, you know, one of my biggest things is look, people post COVID. They try to, they, the providers, the healthcare providers, um, and systems, um, want to believe that they're protecting you by instead of having you allegedly touch pieces of paper, which would be, you know, contained germs and viruses and bacteria, right? Um, they have cooties, right? Oh, we're gonna protect you. We're just gonna have you sign this, this electronic signature pad. And the only thing connected to it is the, um, cord to the, the cashiers, the rep, the, um, the representatives, the billing persons, the cashier,
Chase Peckham:They're the only ones that see it.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:Or their attorneys or legal
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Department. Exactly. And behind post COVID behind the plastic shield, a barrier and behind their mask, they say, sign here, sign here. I'm like, well, I don't
Chase Peckham:I don't know whether to laugh or cry because
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Let's just, it's just saying you agree to,
Chase Peckham:Oh my God,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:exactly. If you do that, you are literally, if you sign it, you are literally giving the medical system a signed blank check for the rest of your life. You have no idea. If you're hard of hearing like I am, and that's, you know, many of us, You don't even have to be part of hearing behind The exactly behind, you know, what are you signing? And so what that does is it gets around the cons, the federal law that protects consumers in the future from just saying, Hey, there's the zombie bill that you, you forgot about the care that you received. Well, you agreed to it. The 1978 fair debt collections practices act says that if you get a call,<laugh>, uh, saying, Hey, you owe always this money. You don't remember getting this care back and da, da, da da. Well, yeah, I remember, but I didn't sign anything. Well, yes you did. Here's your signature. When they call, when a bill collector debt collector calls, you have to say, well, show me my signature, or I agreed to the services or that I said, I received the services period. If they can't show you that you're, they're done. Right. But now with this post, COVID trying to be helpful and keep you quote, unquote safe, um, is, is just a tagline. It means nothing. Um, they get you to sign a, a blank. Oh my gosh. It
Chase Peckham:Just, you're not, you have
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:My head just explode. It's just my biggest pet peeve right now.
Chase Peckham:It's a little blank, electronic, uh, signing thing. You have they're, they're not showing you what you are getting, what you're doing, cuz obviously they don't
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Read it. So in the pet exactly in the past, they would hand it to you in paper. And then you could say, okay, well this is fine print where it looks like they're talking about financial, financial issues, anything where you see financial services agreement, you can say, okay, I can't read this. I'm in too much pain. I'm too scared. I don't feel great. I, my eyes are crossed. I'm dizzy. I can't read this. So all I can see is financial. I'm going to X that out and then write in. I agree to pay Medicare rate for the services period.
Chase Peckham:I agree to,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Or there some people who do this work who say two times Medicare rate, I say Medicare rate, or just say X period. Don't agree at all. If you don't want, you know what, if you don't wanna think about it, you're too scared, exit out and initial it and sign it. And to the doctor's point that was explaining this to you in an emergency situation, by federal law, every single emergency facility or that provides, uh, emergency care, have to stabilize you before they transfer you out for financial reasons. They're not going, you're not going to, the doctors are taking care of you. They're gonna make sure you're okay. They're not gonna send you out for another two or three days before the finance folks finds out about you. And that you don't have that. You don't have insurance or you didn't agree to anything. You're, you're safe. You're gonna be safe. You're gonna be okay. Don't sign it. Yeah.
Chase Peckham:All I had to do.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:X it out. And if they give you paper, but in the post COVID area, they give you an electronic signature pad,
Chase Peckham:Which they all do.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Say, you know what? I don't know what this says. I need you to print it out for me. And they'll say, well, it just doesn't. It's just, oh, uh, yeah. Okay. I don't sign anything unless you print it out. For me, it doesn't matter how many people are waiting behind you. It does not matter how long the line, how upset that they get nasty. Not your problem, not your problem. They're not gonna be with you down the road in years when you get hit with a right,
Chase Peckham:They're not gonna be with you once you get called back,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:We'll get it. Or they'll say, well, this is just your privacy act or this is, um, or your privacy notices, or this is just letting you know about our protocol to keep you safe from COVID. I don't care. I'm not signing anything that is on a pad. You print it out for me and I'll sign it. Maybe when I'm able to, you hand it to me, I'll read it. Maybe I'll sign it. I'm too sick to read it or too scared. I may just exit and sign it.
Chase Peckham:Yep. That's what I told him. And all I did was hand him my proof of insurance and said, here you go, my, and anyway, it gets really convoluted. And, and it, and it's even a little bit, let's just getting away from the emergency room when you're just doing, uh, when, when, once you start, let's say, there's a, what do you do with people like my wife, for instance, where you get, you go into urgent care, your and all of a sudden you get, you think you have appendicitis and there could be a little procedure, or they're just gonna let you go give you a couple Advil and say, you're gonna be okay. And you get basically the most unfortunate news of your entire life. And life-changing news that there is a lump in your colon. We are doing CTCA after we did the CT scan and we think it's colon cancer. Now you are now on a train. They are admitting you to the hospital. You are now meeting with tons and tons and tons of different kinds of doctors. People are running around all over the place, coming in and asking you the same questions over and over and over all from different departments, right? Whether it might be a liver specialist and you got a colon, and then you got your OB, whoever whoever's on, on call and yet. And then all of a sudden, you're you get a call from an oncology department. Your head is spinning you're you don't know what's happening. You're scared. I hate the pun, but you're scared to death that you are going to because you don't know what's gonna happen.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Mm-hmm<affirmative>.
Chase Peckham:And then, you know, at the time everybody's comforting, you they're everything, you know, we're gonna take care of or trying, right. And yet somebody comes in, they give you these pieces of paper. And they said, oh, this is just to admit to the hospital and you're just signing. And then it's, and then you obviously wanna do whatever you can to help the medical system heal you. And you want that for your spouse and you
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And your loved one and, or your loved one.
Chase Peckham:Correct? But now you're in for a future of doctor visits and it's, we all know that when we go get our, when you go visit your doctor, cuz you have a sniffle, you're gonna have a$20 copay or a$50 copay. If it's a specialist or a hundred dollars, whatever, it might be, whatever insurance you have or not, you are now in for this monthly, every two weeks because you are seeing doctors on a regular basis, you're seeing different kinds of specialists that are gonna set you up for different types
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Every six weeks. Yeah. What, yeah. Every, every,
Chase Peckham:How do you handle that?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Some sort you have some kind of, you have to have, um, uh, interaction with the medical care system to change, to change to chain. Every time you show up, it can be as little as a copay. And that's, if you don't have again, your, your insurance plan does not involve co-insurance it involves co-insurance it just stacks up.
Chase Peckham:Right? So let, let's get, I'm gonna go to this. Now you mentioned that the Medicare rate, and this is something that's very interesting to me because this, this, I, I learned this because I had a, a, a bad back and I would go to chiropractor and my insurance was a$15 copay. Let's just say, and when I get his bill though, it says they charged me$80. And when my insurance said, okay, there's no, you, you did your 10 for the year or whatever it might be now. I'm like, well, I still need more. I can't. I told him, I went to him. I said, look, I can't afford$80. And he goes, oh, Chase. I'm not gonna charge you$80. The insurance, you think the insurance company pays me$80? No, I bill$80 because I know that they're gonna give me so much, which is about half of what I bill.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Right.
Chase Peckham:So is that standard across, I mean, do they raise their rates to the astronomical levels that they are?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Absolutely.
Chase Peckham:Because they know that they're only gonna get paid so much.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:All right. So, uh, I'm let's say I'm a provider and I need patients, right? So I'm gonna go, where are the patients? You know, the bank robber, the famous bank, robber, Whitey, Rob banks, cuz that's where the money is. Why do you agree to be part of insurance companies, networks? Why? Because they have all the patients. So if I want all these great patients, a huge amount of patience with a huge, um, company, like one of the top three or something, I'm not gonna mention their names. I'm gonna agree to be in network. And what that is is I have contracted and remember the word contract I've contracted with this insurance company to say, in exchange for you, giving me tons of traffic patients, I'm going to reduce my rates. My normal rate is a hundred dollars, but if you only pay, let's say my normal rate is a hundred dollars to look in your throat and, and I'm being, I'm exaggerating.
Chase Peckham:I understand.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Make the math simple.
Chase Peckham:Yes.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Let's say that.
Chase Peckham:We do that a lot.
Felipe Arevalo:We appreciate that.
Chase Peckham:And so does everybody that listens.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You know, my usual bill for this particular service is a hundred dollars, but the insurance, what a cute little doggy.
Chase Peckham:Oh, that's Tito.<laugh> he's my working partner.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:There you go. You gotta have, you know, somebody has your back, you know? Um, so, uh, they will say, okay, for this service, we know that you charge a hundred, but that's irrelevant. We only pay$10 for this service. And I'm like, you know what? You have so many patients, so many members for your members. I will sign a contract saying, I will accept that$10 is payment in full. And so that is yes, across EV that is the part of participating with insurance. When a provider participates with an insurance plan, when they're in network, that means they have contracted to do so to accept as payment in full for their members. What they pay for services. Now, fast forward, let's say like, what happened to me? I go to, I had an emergency surgery rolled in septic needed emergency surgery at midnight.
Chase Peckham:Oh my.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Okay, great. You know. Okay, fine. And I know that facility was in network with my, uh, insurance and I wanna say almost six months down the road, I get a bill saying, Hey, um, we're glad that you're doing well. And you know, I hope you appreciated our care. Um, I'm like, yeah, I really appreciate your, you saved my life. You know, my, my husband, my family appreciates it. They're like, and uh, this is what we normally charge one line. This is what we charge, uh, 350,$1,000 for that emergency surgery. I was only inpatient stayed in the hospital for two days. Um, and uh, this is what we, they call it. Insurance adjustments was, um, 250,000 or 60,000. And they say, you owe the low, low price of$90,000 is what you owe us and is due by this date.
Chase Peckham:Oh God,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:That is balanced billing. Meaning they take my insurance. They're in network with my insurance. My insurance says we only pay, let's say, um, uh, 250,000, 90,000 for this, you know, again, let's keep the math simple. Let's say they, they charge a hundred thousand. And the, the, uh, provider builds me for the balance. That is balance billing. That is breach of contract.
Chase Peckham:It is a breach of contract. Why is that?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Because they can get away with it because the aver
Chase Peckham:So you technically, probably don't owe that, but they're trying
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:99, you know, how's it go? You know, I never hate a hustler. Right? Don't hate the player, hate the game. But sometimes you're like really, really<laugh> because they can get away with it because,
Chase Peckham:But can they send you the collection on that 90 thousand?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:The public doesn't know what balance billing is. If this is a thing that this is a problem, it, if they can get away with it, they'll can they can't, they, they will many, will I say eight to nine times eight to nine facilities out of 10 will try it.
Chase Peckham:Wow.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:in my experience
Chase Peckham:That it brings up some cuz Felipe, we, we we're ex I mean, we, we work with the, uh, our, our credit system all the time and medical bills, the medical community has been known. They are the fastest to send people to collections. They are the fastest to, to crush your credit. Uh, and I know that that's why FICO it's, it's, it's unfortunate that most people use FICO eight because FICO nine and FICO is trying, they're trying and realize that medical debt is not, it's not a reflection of whether you're a good debtor or, or client or not. That is not,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Which is why the, the US, the, the current US, uh, government administration is trying to separate, um, consumer debt from medical debt. And for thank God, our veterans, but they're expanding it to say, you know what, in order to say, that you're, um, a good loan candidate for a home for your family, they're pulling out.
Chase Peckham:Yes.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:The numbers, anything that any debt has to do with medical debt gets pulled out for their determination of whether or not you're able to afford a loan or, or credit worthy, because they realize there's this not, there's no connection of your credit, worthiness of your morality, your<laugh> right. You know how ethical you are or not. Absolutely.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. There's no reflection of that.
Felipe Arevalo:And they're gonna start removing well, as of now removing the, any medical debt, less than the 500 from the credit reports starts,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:that starts starts sometime in 2023.
Felipe Arevalo:Sometime next year Yeah.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yeah. It's less than$500 that gets removed, period. Yeah. But as of July 1st, um, they're saying, yeah, if you've already paid it off, that gets wiped off instead of having to wait the whole seven years and that kind of thing. And, uh, the other one was, um, say if he paid it off and the other one, there was one that started out of the three, two of them started as of July 1st, da, da, da, less than 500 starts in 20, 23 sometime third time. Yeah. Uh, but the one, so if you pay it off, that is, um, wiped off immediately. You don't have to wait seven years for it to show up. And there's one more, I'm blanking on it guys. But, uh, anyway, I should know
Chase Peckham:This, and that's still one of those things where you have to be diligent and be on top of it. And, and you have, look you because nobody is monitoring that for you.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Oh, I know what it is. Instead of you talked about this Chase at the very beginning medical facilities, unfortunately, often those they're the fastest to send you to collections. So now instead of waiting six months before they can send you to collections, they have to wait 12 months.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And that started also.
Chase Peckham:That's right.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:July 1st of this year,
Chase Peckham:That's right. They can't just all of a sudden send you to collections, which is,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yeah,
Chase Peckham:Really, Because it's, it can devastate people's lives. I mean, you, you could take, they could take decades to crawl your way out of that. Even if you pay off the debts that those marks are still have hit your credit. So if you were in a place where you were in a bad car accident at 26 years old, and you're trying to build a family and buy a home and do all these things, you have that on there, you you're, there's nothing you can do without a cosigner. And that's just wrong.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Devastates your financial future.
Chase Peckham:That's absolutely wrong. A hundred percent step two. Uh, which, which I finding mistakes. Now, this, I found fascinating because I don't even know what I'm looking at. How do I let alone know what the mistakes are?
Felipe Arevalo:How do you catch the mistake?
Chase Peckham:The one thing I did catch that I, I went through is through all the gobbly go. I did know that I had a, a total amount that I would have to pay for the year. So I, I got capped. So I would get all these bills and I'm like, look, I paid the 15,000 or whatever it was long ago, and I should not owe anything anymore. Uh, but yet they could still keep giving you these bills, even though your automatic out of pocket has been already taken care of.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yeah. So you have to figure out every meeting the deductibles.
Chase Peckham:Correct.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:So when I talk about guys, when I talk about looking out for mistakes, I synthesize each of the chapters into basically three steps of the only one, right. Way to pay a medical bill, meaning the only one, right. Way to make sure you're not getting overcharged to make sure you don't overpay on your medical services or any medical bill. And so to make sure that you don't<laugh> that you find mistakes without having to, you know, you don't have to have like, um, some kind of experience or degree or education in the medical field. You don't have to know how the human body works, understand, you know, what I call medicalese or, uh, human, uh, human anatomy terms. No, you don't have to do that in order to be able to find mistakes. So if you apply the three steps, you're gonna be able to figure out for the most part, the big mistakes. So first step is the first I don't call it bill anymore. The first statement that you get is looking to see when you get that number, don't be afraid of that huge number. And I don't call it a bill anymore, guys. Um, I call it like a statement because it's really just a wishlist they're wishing and hope and praying that you'll fall for it. You know, like, you know, with like my case, I was telling you about the facility where I had emergency surgery, you know, I laughed, you know, I'm like, okay, they didn't know that they're trying to pull one over on the author of crush, medical debt. Right.<laugh>, you know, I called my best friend to tell her the story. I said, you know, look at what I had to tell somebody, cause I was cracking up and I, I called my best friend in the middle of the day. I called her at work and she she's like, is everything okay? I'm like, yeah. She's like, well, what's wrong? And I said, I have to laugh. So I don't cry that. And I explained to them that I was being balanced bill to the tune of$90,000 by this, this facility. And she says to me, you know what, Vergie, you're the only person I know who's laughing when everyone else would be curled up in a fetal position crying.
Chase Peckham:Seriously.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:So, yes. Right. So you're not gonna fall for that. You're gonna catch the first mistake is basically them sending you a bill with, or a statement with no C P T codes. Step one of the three steps of the only run white way to pay a medical bill, which will help you catch the big, big mistakes is step one. When you receive a statement and they say, you owe always for the service look to see if there are any what's called C P T goes on. You're looking for the term or the letter C P T somewhere at the top of the bill. And then below it, five digits with next to each service that they say that you've received, that they said that they provided to you. So if you do not see if you get a quote unquote, bill, uh, a statement saying that you owe this money, but you don't see any C P T code. You don't see the letters C P T in capital letters anywhere. And then five digits usually numbers. Sometimes it'll start with an a or D or something, um, or J an a or J, but the most part five digits, then it's not a real bill. It's just a statement where they're hoping and praying because it works 90 plus percent of the time.
Chase Peckham:Wow.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:That you'll fall for it. So step one, you're going to, when you get that twist in your stomach and you realize it's a bill, we're talking about this chase, that, that bad feeling we get in our stomach will make think, oh my gosh, is this gonna be the one that's gonna devastate my, my family's future? You're gonna look and say, okay, they can say whatever they want, but if it doesn't have C P T written across it, it's not a real bill. And when you call the number at the bottom, um, are underneath. Usually it's a big, giant number, like$10,000 underneath that. They'll say, if you have questions, call our billing department or patient accounts department, step one. You're gonna call that number. That is step one, call that number. If you haven't gotten a statement that has, has C P T on it, C P T codes on it, you're gonna call that number and ask for a real bill or quote, unquote something, quote with C P T codes. Unquote. Now I've had people and I've been even told this my call and asked for a real bill, meaning with C PT codes. I need a bill or something. A statement with C P T codes. I've actually had a actually was this facility that was trying to trick me.<laugh> I call them just for fun to see what they had to say about, you know, for themselves.
Chase Peckham:Research.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And the first person. Yeah. Research for the book, not joking. I was like, this is so, yeah. So I call'em and I said, they said, I said, I need a, a bill with there's no CPT codes on this. This is not a real bill. I need something. I need you to send me something with C P T codes. And do you know, the person said, well, I'm sorry, we can't help you with that. Um, that's something you're gonna have to get with your, from your insurance company, you know,$90,000 is a lot to pay we know that you don't have that kind of money. Can we transfer over to our team member to so they can help you make
Chase Peckham:Oh they're gonna negotiate
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:I swear to God, I, if I'm lying, I'm flying. I was stunned. I it's,
Chase Peckham:It's dealing with a collector,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:I had to tell my best friend. Huh?
Chase Peckham:It's like dealing with a collection agency.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Oh, It, that exactly. Yeah. Never hit a hustler. Right? That's their job must have been trained to do, but you're like really? Uh, so yeah, so that's the first step now. So the question is what are C P T codes? And I tell people, look, C P T codes are to medical services in the United States are what bar codes are to every product that you buy. You go into a store and let's say that, you know what? Your favorite bottled water is Poland Springs. And you normally get the eight ounce size, but you're really thirsty this day. So you're gonna grab the 16 ounce size. And so when you scan it this time, what comes up is one, a brief description, usually the product and two, what that particular provider retailer charges for that service or that product. Right?
Chase Peckham:Yep.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:But if I take that same, the barcode is the same. The descriptor It's the same, whether I take it to one store or another, but when I run it through,
Felipe Arevalo:It's a different price.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:The charge, the price, exactly Felipe will often be different. Same thing with C P T codes. You go have medical services and every single medical service test, um, office visit, ER, visit hospital, uh, um, test or, um, uh, radiology, uh, uh, test or, um, operation has its own C P PT code.
Chase Peckham:Blood draw
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:For that's what you're calling to ask for
Chase Peckham:Medicine or, or, or me, uh, medicine, um, intravenous drugs, every different.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:IV drugs. I, oh my God. The list is just, Will start with the J so many of those drugs.
Chase Peckham:Okay.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:CPT codes. They each have exactly that has a J starting it. You don't need to memorize it.
Chase Peckham:No,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:It, you need to know that, Hey, there's, there's 300 plus thousand.<laugh> different CCPT codes because there's 300, 300. I think the last I checked in and 330,000 different C PT codes, because there's tons of different tests and procedures that, that are performed the United States. Right? So, um, that's what you're calling for. And that's why you need C P T codes. Um, it's not a real bill. Look, if they don't send it to your insurance company, why should they send it to you? An insurance company is gonna get a statement that doesn't say, Hey, this is what you owe was we took care of your member. Um, here we did this. We did that. And there's no C P T code on it. The insurance company will say, well, you haven't sent us a bill. You haven't sent us an invoice. You haven't sent us a claim. It was a fancy name for bill that, that, so why would they generate a statement? They, why would a healthcare facility generate a statement that says you owe them money with all of these Sur for services? And it doesn't have a C P T code on it. Why? Because it works.
Chase Peckham:Wow.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:It's deliberate. It's not a mistake. So I call it mistakes, but they're really not, which takes me to step two, which can happen. Mistakes can happen. Uh, step two is you're gonna take that bill. The real bill is time. Once you get it with C PT.
Chase Peckham:The statement?
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:The statement, yes. Or wishlist,
Chase Peckham:There you go.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:They wishing and hope and praying, right? You're gonna take that. And you're gonna, okay. Now I have C P T codes. You're going to step two, take each of those codes and Google them to number one, get a brief description. Like I said, bar code, right? Get a brief description of the service that they're charging you for to make sure it sounds, you know, roughly what you think, the services you received. Um, you know, it's not like, um, or you're not getting double billed or something. It's not like, well, you know, I, I know that I had, um, my hysterectomy, I went in for hysterectomy and that's what the doctors told me that they did, but I'm getting billed for hysterectomy and a myectomy, which is a fancy name for remov uterine fibroids. So just, just, you know, overall, just make sure it sounds right, making sure there's no great big mistakes there. And then two, you're also going to Google what Medicare pays for each of those C P T codes, because that's the basic rate. Anything above that when insurance companies pay private commercial insurance companies pay, and if you don't have insurance, the provider's full retail rate is on average 300 to 500% more than what Medicare, the federal government will pay for the exact same service. And unfortunately, guys, up to a thousand to 2000% more than what Medicare pays for the exact same service.
Chase Peckham:Wow.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Yeah. So then the final step is step three. You're gonna take that total number of all of the procedures and services that you're a bill for total up, what Medicare pays for and says, you're gonna call back the provider called back that number, the billing number, patient accounts, number that you called in. Step one, to get a real bill CPT codes, you're gonna call them back. And you're gonna say, you know what? I know that, um, I was sent an invoice or sent a bill for$10,000, but in my case, and I've been doing research. Um, the actual price that I'm able and willing to pay for this is$3,000. This is what Medicare charges for the same service. And this is actually what I'm able and willing to pay. Can you help me, number one, establish an interest free to two payment plan that is within my budget. And you're gonna tell'em what your budgeted budget is. Now. Your budget may be extremely modest, you know, who signs up for having to have an emergency surgery or emergency.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Repair or something, right?
Chase Peckham:Nobody.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Or, you know, you're in a,
Chase Peckham:not willingly anyway,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:bike accident, you know, your healthy and beautiful and strong 30 something. And you get hit on your bike, you know, your major biker and you need, you know, major hip emergency surgery who asked for that. Right. So, yeah. Um, I'm going to say$10,000 is what your invoice, but Medicare pays, um, uh,$3,000. I totaled up when I did my research and step to Googled and step two, I'm gonna say, you know what, my budget is, I can only squeeze an extra a hundred dollars a month out of my budget. So I need an interest free one, two payment plan of a hundred dollars a month towards$3,000. That's what I'm going and going to, and willing to pay. That's what I can, and I'm able to pay and willing to pay. Now, you're gonna get some pushback that, you know, if you can imagine, because that's the way they're trained.
Chase Peckham:Sure.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Um, and they're gonna say, well, you know, if, if everybody paid the Medicare rate, we wouldn't be able to stay in business. You know, I had to be honest guys, I'm not so sure that's true. And number two is not my problem, but let's just, let's just be, um, let's just say, okay, maybe there's some, they they're trying to be bare bones. And they're really saying they can't survive on just Medicare, uh, rates. There are some people who are doing this work, uh, meaning those that help people with medical, financial literacy and people starting with medical bills, they'll say, we'll offer to pay two times Medicare rate. I'm like, okay, fine. You know, remember I talked about X out, anything that you're asked to sign, um, a pay, you know, two times Medicare rate, I say, start with Medicare rate.
Chase Peckham:Yeah.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:So, yeah. Right. So you're going to say, you know, um, yes, I understand. And they're gonna say, well, you know, if you only pay a hundred dollars a month towards 3000, let's say we were to accept$3,000. This gonna take us forever. If you only pay a hundred dollars a month to get our money.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And you're gonna be like, yeah, and<laugh>, and you might be upset. You're thinking, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be in debt for five years, seven years, 10 years, because that's all I can afford, will find. So what that's better than, you know, medical bills, you're, you're gonna pay them off. We're appreciative of the folks that provided our care that saved our lives, helped us. And our loved ones lives know we're gonna pay them, but we're not gonna do it at the expense of shelter, you know, rent and mortgage for our family and utilities, keeping them safe and warm and three, the opportunity, the ability to get to and from work. So you're not gonna miss a car payment. You're gonna make sure your insurance, you're not going to do anything that's outside of your budget. That's why you're just, it is what it is you take as long as it takes. And the reason guys, why they're gonna eventually accept this, stick to your guns and say, I, I know I'm sorry. Yeah. A little bit of something is better than all of nothing because they're, and they're going to say eventually they're gonna agree to it because they know that it is better to say, okay, they're agreeing to this. It'll take us forever. As opposed to, you know what, you're, you're being proactive. You're reaching out to them. You're not ignoring them. They don't have to chase you and potentially get nothing or sell the bill. The sell the, um, the invoice, the bill, the debt to debt collectors for just pennies on the dollar that's while eventually they'll accept it, stick to your guns, all three steps to make sure that you're not being overcharged. You're not getting big, gross mistakes, uh, overcharged to you. And you're paying only what you owe.
Chase Peckham:incredibly sound advice. And, and.
Felipe Arevalo:That's awesome.
Chase Peckham:Absolutely. A hundred percent something, none of us would know.
Felipe Arevalo:No.
Chase Peckham:I mean, even those of us that quote unquote educated and feel like we, you know, know all this life stuff. I mean, unless you've been through it and even then, you know, because have many, I still have no idea.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You know what guys, I started this work because I thought I knew it all. You know, um, I had been a board certified internal medicine physician for, you know, couple of decades, longer than I wanna admit, uh, um, a health insurance executive for 10 years, almost 10 years. So I thought I'd seen the whole perspective, but it wasn't until I became a patient and saw where I had been taken advantage of. And the retrospect was like, they took advantage of me and then realizing, having contact as a patient with other patients, them telling me these outrageous stories of how they've been taken advantage of. Um, you know, like I told you earlier, the example of, I think I told you guys a story of my hospital roommate, uh, being told that you gotta sign this before you can leave saying that you'll agree to basically, right. Um, whatever we send you and your insurance doesn't pay, you're gonna agree to pay it. Like, wait, what the curtain dropped. I saw red because I knew that she had been tricked into a lifetime of debt for her and her family just wiped out and stressed. And I thought, you know what? Virgie don't get angry. You know, don't get mad, get to getting, do something. And that's how Crush Medical Debt was born for that exact reason chase. Because I knew that folks, even, you know, those of us with 20 years, you know, in the industry of formal education and experience in the industry, uh, don't had no clue until I realized, wait a minute and put it all together and thought, wow, no one knows this stuff. And the, the systems know it. And so we're pray
Chase Peckham:I think that's
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:We have to protect ourselves.
Chase Peckham:I think that that's, I think that goes without saying, and we, we need to let people know. I, and I truly believe this, that the physicians that are working for you, the nurses that are working for you that are trying to make you better. Uh, they really don't know the, everything that's going on in the background. They have a broad idea,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:They're two different worlds.,
Chase Peckham:That's not their focus. Their focus is to heal you,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:They have no idea. They have no idea and they don't care what you compare, not paid. They don't want, they don't want you to even think about finances and resources. They just want you to be able to take care of yourself. You know, once they get you stable eyes and everything and stay well, once they patch you up, they don't want you to, to get stressed out and, you know, stress causes severe problems, medical problems.
Chase Peckham:Oh yeah.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You know, right in itself, they don't want to patch you up and spend all this time pouring into you and healing you to send you out with what the facility that they work for sending you this outrageous bill. A lot of the, you probably don't owe and the stress involved with that. They don't want that. Exactly. They're, they're clueless. Two different worlds.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. They, the, the medical, I, I will say, and this is just my experience. Uh, and, and the, the group at U C S D I will name them because they were phenomenal. They treated, you know, my wife didn't make it and I'm, I'm not angry. They did everything. They absolutely could. And they cared and they had compassion and they looked me in the eye and they hugged me. And they, they took care of us and they, they treated us like human beings and they treated us the way they would want their family to be treated. And that was, I walked away from that thinking, you know, I don't have a problem looking at the hospital when I drive by it every day where my wife passed away. And I thought I would, but I don't because I have the utmost respect for the way that those doctors treated me. Uh, do I love the, a lot of the other stuff? No, but that's not. I choose not to focus on that. Uh, I, I truly believe that they gave everything they had, uh, to,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:And it's not their fault have nothing to do with the.
Chase Peckham:Zero.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:less than zero. They're not remotely connected.
Chase Peckham:I mean, they have nothing to do with the fact that if you're like Keri had to go into hospice, we were very close for them to discharging us and us having to find a facility for my wife to spend the, the end of her days. Because she wasn't quote unquote, urgent enough, even though she's, she's dying, her liver is going, she's warm bun. Yeah. They, they were like, oh, but it's not enough to where we're gonna keep her in the hospital. We, you gotta find another facility. And so I was going through all that, trying to figure out where we were gonna do, like literally from Airbnb to where she's gonna spend her final days, because my kids in, I and her all decided she was not gonna do hospice in the home that we were gonna live in. We did not want that memory in our home.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Mm-hmm<affirmative>.
Chase Peckham:And that was a, you know, some people want that. Some, we collect as a family, decided not to do that. Some people love that, whatever it might be, but it just so happened that as things turned and I found out later that the nurse that was taking care of us and the doctor, the physician that was taking care of her at that point, because so many different departments, once they get to certain levels, um, they really pushed to say, look, she needs to be here. We need to, her final days need to be here. We don't know how much time there is. So I, I can't tell you how thankful I am that those decisions were taking care of, but I, not everybody is so lucky that way. And it literally, as much as it might tear their hearts out, that they're telling me we she's gotta go. That's their job. They it's, it's what they have to do.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:No. And it's not them that's telling you that.
Chase Peckham:No.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:It's no, it's they're getting calls all the time from the administrators and the billing department saying, look, they have to go.
Chase Peckham:We need beds.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:They're no more, they have to go because they're not going to meet the services. When we send the bill for this, we're gonna get a D or a no from their insurance, because she doesn't meet this level of care. They, they got to go. That's the doctors being told that, yeah, the doctors aren't telling you that they're just like, what the, what? This is crazy. No, she needs to stay here. And so, yeah, because of the outside, you know, bean counters and commar, you know, commercialization of the services,
Chase Peckham:H ospital, hospital protocol,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:the United States. Yeah. The, well, the protocol isn't for them to make money. So when the, when they know, when they get a call from the, uh, the administrator saying, um, you know what, the insurance that she no longer meets the level of care where the insurance is gonna pay for this. She's gotta go. We're not gonna get paid down the road. We're gonna lose money on this case. That's what's going on. It's not the doctor. So the doctor saying, my gosh, they're saying they have to go. And behind the scenes, the doctor's saying, well, what the hell? Excuse my French. You know, what, what are you supposed supposed to do? Where is she supposed to go?
Chase Peckham:Absolutely. Well, doctor, I can't<laugh>, I can't even begin to tell you how excited I was and, and how happy I am that we had this discussion, because I think so many people are gonna learn so much from this, um, from this book, how can people find your book? Where, where can they go if they want to, to learn this most incredibly valuable information.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:So you can go to crushmedicaldebt.com and any place you like to buy your books. Um, if you like to go in person, uh, to like Barnes and Nobles or something, instead of, you know, some people I've gotten feedback, I don't wanna order it online or, or order online from a, you know, the largest book seller online book seller. Well, you can go to burns and Nobles and they'll order it for you for free. They'll have it shipped directly to the facility, or you can order it through again, through, uh, crushmedicaldebt.com. You can also go to crushmedicaldebt.com to get a free download of the checklist of a reminder of the only three steps of the only right way to pay a medical bill. So go to crush medical debt.com to get your free checklist to remind you, Hey, there's only one right way to pay a medical bill. Here are the three steps to do.
Chase Peckham:It's phenomenal information and thank you, Dr. Virgie, bright Ellington. Thank you so much for being with us today. Felipe had to drop off because we were doing financial literacy to another group today, but thank you. I, I, I can't thank you enough. And how much, uh, this actually means to me personally, and how many other people have to deal with this on a, on a daily basis. And I mean, going through this type of thing, emotionally is so hard enough. And then to add the financial component to it, which causes us probably the number one cause of stress is money and which is the number one reason for divorce. And so.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Exactly.
Chase Peckham:You bring that into the equation. It's just my
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Oh my gosh Chase. You would think that we did, we planned this ahead of time, but that's, it's not true. That's our model. That's the crush medical debt model, saving money, saving families, one medical bill at a time because what's the number one cause of the number one cause of bankruptcy is medical bills. And what's the number one cause of divorce, financial problems, money problems, money differences.
Chase Peckham:Yep.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Differences about money. There you go.
Chase Peckham:Unbelievable. I think we could, we'll just stop it right there. Thank you so much. Uh, we really appreciate it. And we'll talk to you. Uh, I hope I'll get to talk to you again, um, because I, I just have to, this is something I'm gonna with colon cancer and everything else. Uh, this is something I've got to do to honor my wife and her legacy. So thank you so much.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:Thank you for all. You do Chase much. Appreciate it. And again, your work with, you know, financial literacy is, is priceless. And, um, this
Chase Peckham:Is the one, the one thing that's so hard, this is the, this is, this is the most difficult thing to navigate. It really is. Medical debt is unbelievably difficult to navigate. So thank you so much for,
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:and it doesn't have to be that way.
Chase Peckham:Making it easy.
Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington:You guys are, you guys are helping to make sure it, it doesn't have to be that way.