Talk Wealth to Me

#024: Financial Abuse 101: What is it and how do I recover?

October 25, 2019 Felipe Arevalo, Chase Peckham, Katie Utterback, Rebecca Neale Season 1 Episode 24
Talk Wealth to Me
#024: Financial Abuse 101: What is it and how do I recover?
Show Notes Transcript

1 in 4 women is known to be a victim of domestic violence. Men are affected too, we just have fewer stats on the rate they endure abuse. 

A study by the Centers for Financial Security found that 99% of domestic violence cases also involved financial abuse. What's more, financial abuse is often the first sign of dating violence and domestic abuse. 

Financial abuse involves controlling a victim's ability to acquire, use, and maintain financial resources. Those who are victimized financially may be prevented from working. They also may have their own money restricted or stolen by the abuser. And rarely do they have complete access to money and other resources. When they do have money, they often have to account for every penny they spend.

Financial abuse may begin subtly and progress over time. It may even look like love initially as abusers have the capacity to appear very charming and are masterful at manipulation. For example, the abuser may make statements such as, “I know you’re under a lot of stress right now so why don’t you just let me take care of the finances and I’ll give you money each week to take care of what you need.” 

This scenario commonly leads to the abuser giving the victim, less and less in “allowance” and by the time the victim decides she or he wants to take back control of the finances, she or he discovers that the accounts have all been moved or she or he no longer has knowledge or access to the family funds.

The short- and long-term effects of financial abuse can be devastating. In the short-term, access to assets is imperative to staying safe. Without assets, survivors are often unable to obtain safe and affordable housing or the funds to provide for themselves or their children. With realistic fears of homelessness, it is little wonder that survivors sometimes return to an abusive partner.

For those who manage to escape the abuse and survive initially, they often face overwhelming odds in obtaining long-term security and safety. Ruined credit scores, sporadic employment histories, and legal issues caused by the abuse make it extremely difficult to gain independence, safety, and long-term security.

Resources:
The National Domestic Violence Hotline
Advocates are available 24/7 at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) in more than 200 languages, TTY 1-800-787-3224. All calls are free and confidential.

Aunt Bertha 

Purple Purse Allstate Foundation

About Rebecca Neale
Rebecca G. Neale has years of experience advocating for clients in the courtroom and the conference room and enjoys helping people navigate some of the most difficult chapters of their lives.

She has represented and advised over 300 clients in divorce cases, housing proceedings, Social Security appeals, and more. Rebecca has represented homeowners in nationwide class-action lawsuits against banks and small businesses in contract disputes and clerked for the highest state courts in New York and California.

About the Show
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Intro:

Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me a safe space podcast where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance.

Felipe Arevalo:

The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal, tax or other professional advice.

Chase Peckham:

Hello and welcome to another edition of Talk Wealth to Me where we talk everything personal finance. And today Felipe and I got to sit down with Rebecca G. Neale from the great state of Massachusetts and she is a divorce attorney, family law. She does custody as well as estate planning. And we talk about financial abuse today, which is an incredibly fascinating and incredibly disturbing topic and that is, it is so frequent. And Rebecca really kind of lays it out on the different abuses that there are and it really is fascinating. So , uh , here's Rebecca Neale. Take us back a little bit, but how did you get into this finances side of it really become kind of an expert on, on , uh , on that part of , um, what you do?

Rebecca Neale:

Sure. I mean, I've always had an interest in personal finance even before I became a lawyer. Um, so while I was developing that personal interest and finding out as much as I could , um, my career took me to a place where now I work in family law and finances are always an issue when it comes to divorce. When it comes to custody. I have a peek into the lives of what the financial lives of all my clients. Um, and I see the a range of financial situations. Um, as well as with my estate planning clients. I used to do , um, actually I used to be a consumer attorney doing class action litigation on mortgage , um, foreclosures. Uh, at one point I worked at the attorney General's office where I was able to provide information about consumer rights issues and mediate some um , some issues that came up between, you know, businesses and individuals. Uh, so I've had a variety of experiences in consumer law and now as a family attorney and estate planner.

Chase Peckham:

And what, what was it about family law? How did you decide to go in , in that direction? Cause, I mean that's markedly different, isn't it?

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah, it is. I never thought I would be a divorce lawyer. Right. Um, I'd never thought that I, as a consumer lawyer, I never thought that I'd be helping people with their estate plans either. Um, but what happened is , um, I really enjoy consumer law and issues that come up, but in order to make a really great change in consumer law , um, for consumers, you work on these massive cases that take forever to percolate through the legal system and you deal with a large volume of discovery you have to wade through. And you only work with a few clients even though you're representing a class of thousands. And honestly, I just love working with people. I work love working one on one with clients. I love getting into the courtroom and those things just didn't happen , um, nearly as frequently as a consumer lawyer as I wanted them to. So when an opportunity to do family law came up, I was hesitant, but , um, decided to give it a chance because I was able to use those skills that I love to use , um, advocacy. And , um , one on one client interactions. And once I discovered, you know, how much I loved doing that and the substantive area worked for me , um, I just didn't look back. I, I love my job now.

Felipe Arevalo:

And how long have you, how long is, sorry this Philippe, and how long ago did you make the switch?

Rebecca Neale:

So, let's see. I've had my own firm for over three years. Uh, I've been practicing family law now for over four years. Um, but I've been a lawyer for over a decade.

Chase Peckham:

Talking about financial abuse. I was doing some research when we were talking about doing this podcast. Financial abuse is a real thing and it is very common.

Rebecca Neale:

Yes, it is a astoundingly, well, it's upsetting to see how common it is. First of all, if you have a physically abusive situation with an intimate partner, it's 95 to 98% likely that there's also financial abuse going on. And um, there's a statistic that one in four women will experience a physically abusive relationship in her lifetime. And so when you realize that that's how prevalent that is , uh , it's astounding and upsetting. But I will tell you also that I have clients in the past where there's been absolutely no physical abuse, thank goodness, but there's certainly are real red flags for financial abuse. Um, and once you start seeing them, you kind of can't unsee them , uh, when it comes up later, if that makes sense. Like you'll see a new iteration of the same old thing that you saw with five other clients, you know , uh , um, a spouse who refuses to disclose , um, their self employment income or under reports it on their taxes and then says to their spouse, well, this is what I'm going to do and I'm gonna file the taxes. Um, and what's she going to do? You know, how is she gonna say, how's she gonna stand up and say, no, you have to report all of it, you know , um, or, you know, she leaves it to her spouse to file the taxes and he continues to drag his feet, drag his feet, and before you know, it, three years have gone by and um, the taxes still haven't been filed. It's a big, it's prevalent. It's more prevalent than I think we realize. And I think a lot of people sometimes ask themselves, you know, what is this? Is this abuse or is this just, you know, laziness or just not getting around to things or , you know, what's really going on here?

Felipe Arevalo:

And that was going to be my followup question. How often do you feel that financial abuse isn't really a, you know, the individual doesn't realize it or you know , they don't classify it as financial abuse, like you were saying. Do you think there's a lot of cases where it's happening and individuals just don't know that it's happening to them?

Rebecca Neale:

Absolutely. I think that we're raised in , um, a society that has expectations for , um, you know, who does what in a relationship and sometimes we don't know, you know, what does a healthy financial relationship look like? What does, what does a healthy relationship look like when you're talking about finances? Um , and I think that because, you know, personal finances are a topic that is taboo pretty much. And abuse is a topic that's taboo. So you combine them together. People aren't talking about it, so they don't know, you know, what a good role model would be for how to manage their finances together.

Chase Peckham:

So I , I'm , I am guessing that for abuse, financial abuse and other abuses , uh, in relationships where one side is controlling another, the word it's, it's control, right? I mean, they're , they're feeling that they can control the narrative in their relationship. Uh , whether they're afraid of them leaving that person or they just, I mean, who knows what goes on inside Somebody who's head that is purposefully doing these things. How often do you see that it's legitimately this person just wants to control the spouse versus, you know, I handled the money and she just was never interested or I thought she was never interested.

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah. I mean, so you have to keep in mind too, that the clients that I have are clients who are going through a divorce and they've decided, most of them have decided to file for contested divorce, which means they're already not agreeing on a lot of things. So in many senses I see the of the worst, you know. Right. Um, so I absolutely recognize that there's some in between area. Um , where maybe , um, there is that understanding that I didn't realize that she wanted more control over this or she wanted her to be a more active participant in our finances, that that likely does exist somewhere. It's not in the cases that I see. Yes, I hear that excuse a lot. But you know, I also hear my clients say, I asked several times for the credit card or the health insurance card or , um, you know, information about our taxes and he never gave it to me. So I stopped asking. And the other side will say, well, she only asked me once or twice. It's like, well, how many times do you have to ask , um, and not get an answer before you stop, stop asking. But I think the key to a healthy relationship around finances is it's perfectly okay for one spouse to be handling like the finances, but it's not okay to keep them a secret or to , uh , not allow that person access to information. For example, in my relationship, you know, I handle the finances because I love personal finance stuff. You know, it's just my thing. But my husband has access to every single bank account and investment account that we have. You know, we talk about big decisions and we make them together. Um, and we're equal. We have equal participation in this decision making. Even if one of us is actually hitting the pay this bill now button.

Chase Peckham:

So it's like you're the CFO and he's the vice president.

Rebecca Neale:

I guess.

Chase Peckham:

it's almost like the families a business and your goal. And we talk about this.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah, it's funny cause you're talking to two guys who do personal finance on the regular, but have no issues letting our wives be the one who paid the bill.

Chase Peckham:

We do this for a living, we teach this for a living. And yet my wife, who's a very type a personality, she just likes to be kind of in charge of it. And you know, but we discuss it though. I know everything that's going on. I know where everything is. She just physically likes to do it because that's her personality.

Felipe Arevalo:

I agree. I see the same with me. I would, I don't, I can get in there and make the payments, hit the pay button, but I'd wait a lot longer than she's comfortable. Right. So she goes ahead and takes care of it and I'm okay with that.

Rebecca Neale:

I think that's a really good point that you raised though that we all have our idiosyncrasies or our preferences when it comes to managing finances. Your wife prefers to pay the bills sooner and you probably prefer to wait until the deadline and you've accommodated each other. And that's a sign of , uh , a healthy relationship around your, around managing finances together. In an abusive relationship, you'll have one side saying, I'm nervous about this. I don't like this. Can we please pay this sooner? And the other side says, no, it's fine ignoring that this other person has an opinion and um, just does it their way instead.

Chase Peckham:

So let me ask you, in , in your experience, when it comes to financial abuse, how often is it just financial abuse because they want to keep their, their spouse or their partner , um, in the dark, or that they just don't want them to spend money versus there's obviously there might be something else going on that, that if she has, or he has the availability to look at these things, they're gonna find out something else.

Rebecca Neale:

Right! So, so there's a few different , uh , ways where, you know, ways that financial abuse happens and some of them are, you know, keeping secrets. Somebody has a gambling substance abuse or you know, infidelity issue that they want to hide and they don't want their spouse knowing that they've been doing those things. But something else that happens also is called , um, uh, well, it's , um , economic exploitation where someone is actually stealing your property. Someone is actually actively building up a debt in the spouse's name and putting all the assets in their own name. OK . They're , they're pawning a spouse's property. Um, and, and it's pretty common, particularly with , uh , when there's also physical abuse , um, is to undermine a spouse's ability to work by pestering them so much at work or sabotaging their ability to be at work. Um, and , um , so unfortunately there's a lot of kind of nefarious things that happen. Um, and financial abuse situations, physically abusive situations that really aren't a result of, you know, trying to keep a secret but trying to keep somebody on their toes and , um, in their place and kind of isolated.

Chase Peckham:

And then it can, I would imagine that there are other exams where they're just flat out trying to steal from them and then disappear. Or at least that's the plan ahead of time.

Rebecca Neale:

I'm sure that happens. I'm sure that happens. I mean, less with it intimate partner situation because they want to maintain that relationship in the way that they are comfortable with, which is when they have as much control as as they can.

Chase Peckham:

Right. So we, we kind of have the different scenarios, the why . So let's take it to, let's , when you get to your clients , um, what does this leave, what state does this leave your clients in? I mean, it's gotta be now, I mean, the pain of just finding out , um, and going through a divorce obviously, I mean it's painful. Um, from a , an emotional standpoint, you know, you love this person at one point , uh, you have that fear of failure. Um, you know, all those like how am I going to raise the kids alone if they have kids, all those kinds of things. And then yet they might find out that their credit is destroyed, that they have nothing. They don't know how to , uh , pick up the pieces and then actually do their financial, their financials themselves. They're overwhelmed by it cause they haven't done it for so long. How do, how do they pick up the pieces?

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah, you've hit on so many, the big issues that come up, you know, the last thing you mentioned that they haven't done their finances for so long. Sometimes, you know, they have to kind of relearn how to do them. That's also , um , tends to be a result of the abusive nature of the communications between the partners. I know somebody who is a financial planner and her partner kept telling her, you don't know what you're doing. I'm going to handle the finances. And after a while she started to believe it. She's a financial planner. She knows exactly what she's doing. But after hearing, after hearing all this time and time again, her confidence level plummeted. And so for a typical person who, you know, I think that typically people have a bit of a fear of personal finance issues and then when things start to go wrong, they don't know how to, they, they would prefer not to think about it. Um, and then when somebody has eroded their confidence, it makes it so much more of a hurdle for them , uh, psychologically to get over and start addressing it. And then once they start addressing it , they see that their credit has plummeted. They have late payments on all sorts of bills. They have , um, you know, utility bills that are in arrears and their electricity could get shut off. Um, they maybe have the tax liability going back for years when maybe their spouse under-reported self employment income, but you know, for example, eBay or um, PayPal, they issue 1099's so then IRS finds out that you've been making money on those platforms and then they go after the couple there jointly and separately liable for that tax bill meeting even if they're SEP separated or divorced. You know, both parties are responsible for 100% of any tax liability that was incurred while they were married and filing jointly. But because the other partner has, maybe they live a cash base based existence and so they don't have a bank account or they don't have a regular paychecks like with a w2, the IRS can't come and garnish their wages and can't seize their bank accounts. So they go after the, the partner who is living a more legitimate life, you know, with established of financial institutions that they can garnish and seize . So that's that it has reverberating effects and there are few remedies at the tax level with the IRS that you can pursue. But they do have so much short time frames for pursuing them. And so if you, if you're trying to stick your head in the sand and ignore that there's a problem, you may have , um, you may have foreclosed the opportunity to solve it and with credit, you know, those, those issues take six, seven, eight years to clear off of your credit history. And in the meantime, you're struggling with trying to get a credit card when you haven't had any credit in the past few years or , um, frequent issue is refinancing the mortgage so that you can take ownership of a home , um, and take it out of your joint names and put it into your, your sole name. You know, somebody who's had significant exploitation where they weren't able to work or their work was undermined. They don't have two years of salary history to use to apply for that refinance. And so it's difficult to get that house out of the joint couple's name. And as long as your name is joint on anything with somebody who is financially abusive, you really subjecting yourself to the possibility that they may be manipulating you even further.

Felipe Arevalo:

so that financial abuse can continue. What I'm hearing is, even after a divorce is final.

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have clients who, you know, I, they have children together and if the other parent doesn't , um, doesn't comply with the parenting schedule in a way that allows it , say for example, there's a , a drop off , uh , uh , an exchange of the child, you know, in the morning before one parent goes to work , um , if the other parent doesn't show up, what happens, you know, that it puts that person's work into chaos. You know, they have to scramble to file, find childcare or they have to come in late. Um, and they have to make excuses to their employer. Same old thing again, you know , um, and it could lead to them losing their job.

Chase Peckham:

That's a nightmare.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah. That sounds like a nightmare you can go on for, yes. There's children involved. Uh , how often or would you say the children are used as , um, you know, a method of the financial abuse? Is it common? When is it more common when there's children, I guess is my question.

Rebecca Neale:

I couldn't tell you whether it's more or less common, but unfortunately there are people who, who do use children in a way that , uh , further manipulates the other party.

Felipe Arevalo:

What I was thinking of is like, for example, like child support, one couple, the one responsible for paying the child support may decide, Oh, I'm angry or I'm bitter about it so I'm not gonna pay it.

Rebecca Neale:

Right, right.

Chase Peckham:

Or does that happen when they are legally bound by the court?

Rebecca Neale:

It happens. It happens.

Chase Peckham:

And what are the repercussions of that typically?

Rebecca Neale:

So it varies by state. In our state, in Massachusetts, not your state, sorry, I don't know how it works in California, but in Massachusetts the courts can impute income , uh , meaning like, say somebody lost their job or they, they quit their job on purpose. I mean, how many times have I heard a client tell me? Yeah. My husband threatened to quit his job if I filed for divorce and then I'd have to pay him child support, which is ridiculous because if you quit your job that you've been at for your entire life or you've been working your entire life and then you all of a sudden quit, the court is going to look at you like really? And they're going to , they're going to impute income to you. They're going to say you should be working at that level. And even though you're not now, you don't appear to be looking for work. We're gonna , we're gonna assume you're working and continue this child support , um, order. We're not changing a thing. So you better, you know, pick yourself up and go apply for some jobs. Um, they will also make a determination to attribute income that hasn't been reported, like on taxes , um, or to the court if, if the other party can show that the person has been underreporting . For example, somebody has been paying a $2,500 a month mortgage every month reliably and drives, you know, a Tesla, but they say they're only making $500 a week. You know, this just doesn't fit. Doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. So the court, the court is so savvy about this, they see this all the time. People trying to get out of their child support , um, obligations. And you know, I really think that after a judge has been on the bench in family court for a year or two, they've probably seen every one of these scenarios yet. You know , uh, pay yours, still try. They still think they can get away with it.

Chase Peckham:

That's crazy. So we , we talked a bit about let's get, cause what really happens to the real, you know, the real life part of things on an individual level, throwing, kind of the abuse aside, trying to pick the pieces up with rebuilding credit, paying off bills, all those things. I would imagine that you have clients that get stuck with bills and things that weren't technically theirs in the first place. How do people pick up the pieces? How , how, where do they go? How do they try to fit, you know, help their credit, those kinds of things. What do they, what do they do when they're faced with what seems like an insurmountable climb to get out of the pain they're in?

Rebecca Neale:

Well , um, you know, they, there are a lot of resources for them. Unfortunately, when somebody is in that situation, it's really hard to find a reliable resource. It's not a very expensive, right? Because financial planners who are happy to work with you, but they're going to be charging you $150 an hour, you know, some clients can't afford that. Um, people can work with financial coaches who tend to charge less. Um, I've seen a lot of success , um , with people who use some of the , um, online resources that have you connected to a community of people who are also struggling and succeeding, taking small steps towards getting kind of their financial house in order. Um, so, and I think that those kinds of things are really well tuned to the single parent because you could go online in your time in evenings or something like that. You don't have to show up in a certain location at a certain time to get, you know, to attend a workshop or something like that. But it's important to be able to have a community that can celebrate your small wins and help you through some of the challenges particular to your situation and help people see that there is a, a light at the end of the tunnel. Um, there's also some books out there that can help kind of with those small steps towards repairing credit towards. Um, well actually I haven't found any books on , uh, how to get your debt relieved from the , from the IRS with innocent spouse or injured spouse relief. But , um , hopefully somebody will fill that need sometime soon.

Chase Peckham:

Well, I know that, you know, there are opportunities for people that have been exploited , uh , that have names, whether they've been forged , uh, on different accounts and those kinds of things that the credit reports. Um, they will listen to that and look at that. Um , and it just takes a long time. And plus not only that, people will get frustrated because of the length of time that it takes to do it and people are trying to cheat the system all the time so they have to really go through it and say, is this legitimate or not? And that can be difficult , uh , for people to navigate. But is that the re, is that the kind of the way you would have people as reach out to the credit bureaus and kind of explain the situations?

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah, absolutely. So , um, so if there is something that's incorrect that it's on your credit report, you absolutely should dispute it. Uh , and you should send in a dispute with all the information you have explaining why it's incorrect and see that the , the credit card, the credit reporting Bureau does change it. And even if they don't, you could still write what's called a Goodwill letter to , to tell them about your situation and say, listen, I really , uh , had no control over this. Um, I'm trying to get my credit back into shape. Do you think that this, you know, can be changed on my credit report because it's not my fault. Um, in the case of fraud, like , uh , somebody signs you up for credit cards and you never knew it, they just use your social security number to do it. You know, you would put that in your complaint and you would also file a police report. Um, and sometimes it's required that you file a police report before credit reporting Bureau will remove it from your, from your credit report.

Chase Peckham:

How have you seen that ? Uh , that's that you brought something up that I personally, we don't run into a ton here, but I have heard stories do you run into where they'll find out that there's credit cards in their names that they never even knew about, that their spouses were opening up?

Rebecca Neale:

I once had a client who found out there was a student loan in her name that her mother had taken out and pretended to be her, you know, I mean, these are things that you don't find out until all of a sudden one year you don't receive your tax refund and you're like, where did it go? And you look it up and you find out, Oh, it's been garnished by some student loan lender that I had no idea how to student loan with. And then you've asked for the paperwork from that lender and to see how it was signed up, how it was initiated, and you can tell, you know, she said, well that's my mom's signature on the line that has the blank spot for my name. You know, that's my mom's handwriting. Handwriting my name. Uh , so can you imagine , uh , w the first thing I tell them , I advise my clients or potential clients to do, it's, I think it's number one on my little cheat sheet that I hand out to them at their consultation is to get a copy of your credit report and to take a look at it and see if you, if you recognize everything on there. Um , and if you don't, then we need to look into what exactly happened there.

Chase Peckham:

I'm so glad you said that because we tell all of our, everybody we work with all the presentations we do that you should be looking at your credit report at least once or twice a year , uh , just to, it's amazing what you can find out by looking at that. Yes , really is, there's nothing to hide. You cannot hide anything from a credit report.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah. And it's something where it could be something minor, an accident, something accidentally being reported on your report, on your court that doesn't belong to you, that can get taken care of very quickly with an inquiry or something. In the case of like that student loan example of something a lot more , uh, damaging to your report.

Rebecca Neale:

Oh yeah. And has the , you know ,

Felipe Arevalo:

legal implications

Rebecca Neale:

yeah. In a bottom line to your bank account. Right . Know , I mean they took her refund. So

Chase Peckham:

man, it's gotta be tough. Uh, you've got to learn how to go to sleep at night cause you can see some terrible stories. Uh, you mean or , or you go to bed at night thinking, God, you know, God blessed that my, my husband and I have the relationship we do because man, you see some very rough stuff,

Rebecca Neale:

both of those things. And you might , we'll tell you

Felipe Arevalo:

in the student loan example you mentioned it was apparent , how often do you see, is it often that you see either a parent towards a child or a child towards an elder parent? A forms of financial abuse?

Rebecca Neale:

not in my current work because I work mostly in divorce and estate planning, but this example is when I was, I was actually a poverty lawyer at legal aid where I handled lots of different issues for people and that's where I came about that client there. So I can't speak to how often that happens. But it does. There is some literature on um, you know, parental financial abuse of, of children, manipulating them with , um, you know, with their allowances or with, you know, asking them to borrow money saying things like, well, I raised you and I spent all this money raising you so you really need to support me now when the parent isn't making good financial choices. Um, it's not an area that I tend to work in, but it absolutely is an area that exists and is a huge challenge for a lot of people.

Chase Peckham:

I've seen crazy stories of parents coming back and their credits destroyed and so they go to their 20, 22 year old kids and ask for them to co-sign on cars and businesses and loans and it almost never works out well.

Rebecca Neale:

It's so sad.

Chase Peckham:

History tends to repeat itself.

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, they're exploiting this relationship with someone who was supposed you know, that person, their child trusts them or you know, looks up to them. And it's such a difficult situation for everybody involved.

Chase Peckham:

Now, it seems, and I, and I would imagine that , um, a lot of times the financial abuse tends to skew , uh , towards the female. Is it often that it , have you ever been in a situation where , um, the man in the relationship is the one that has had abuse against and in this case financial abuse?

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah, I mean, so domestic violence with physical abuse, I mean, that is a , that is gendered violence. That is, you know, the majority of perpetrators are men. Majority of victims are women. I don't think that financial abuse where there's no physical abuse, I don't think it's nearly as gendered as, as a physical abuse. Because, you know, finances, every finances involved with emotional and psychological abuse, financial abuse does because you belittle somebody's ability to make decisions. You belittle, their purchases, you belittle their jobs and say that, you know, it's just not, their job is just not that important or something like that. I think that they're , I don't know the statistics because this is an area that hasn't been widely researched yet, although it's , it's kind of , um, it's emerging now is its own area of , um, concentration before it was, it was thought of as a subset of, you know, domestic violence in general. Now I think , uh , researchers are seeing that it can be its own, you can have financial abuse on its own. And so I don't know the gender breakdown there, but I do see the possibilities of it not being nearly as gendered as a physical abuse.

Chase Peckham:

And this is going to sound like a funny question, but how often have you during the process have found out that maybe your client has been , uh, a little less forthcoming about finances? Um, versus the other side? You know, I would imagine that as we've been talking, we're all thinking that the person that you're going up against has been the perpetrator when it comes to the personal finances. Have you ever run into the other side where you're going, Oh my, my clients have been a little less forthcoming than they probably should have been.

Rebecca Neale:

Well, I think that , um, every attorney finds himself in a situation where they've either been proactively lied to or selectively told the truth about certain things. Sure. So , um, I would say that, that, that's not unheard of for lawyers and certainly has been my experience in certain situations. But , um, if that is the case, then I do find a way to , um, stop representing somebody if that's the case. Because again, it needs to, there needs to be a relationship of trust that the person talking to me is telling me the truth. Um, and that they trust my advice based on what they've , uh, they've told me. And if they're not telling me the whole story , um, I can't give good advice. I can't represent them in the best way possible.

Chase Peckham:

And chances are the truth's gonna come out through this process anyway. Right. I mean, I would imagine, I don't know , difficult to keep, keep a lid on things when you're going through such a large processes such as that.

Rebecca Neale:

Well, I dunno , um , with self-represented people, I think people can get away with a lot if they don't have a lawyer. They don't know what to ask for. They don't know what they have a right to. Okay. Um, so I would say actually, if you're trying, if the other side doesn't have a lawyer, you probably aren't going to get away with a lot. Unfortunately, I've seen it happen where I've seen it happen. You know, someone's unrepresented or both sides are unrepresented and one person happens to be more articulate or more charming. Um, and they might be saying lie after lie after lie. But in the, in the divorce process, there's the opportunity to show the court , uh, supporting evidence for the facts that you're saying doesn't come until the very end. And that's kind of when after all the destruction has happened, you know, somebody's lying throughout the process. It's really hard to catch them in that lie unless you know somebody, unless you know, like what you, what you can and can't do. And that's why lawyers so important.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. Can you never, just, if you're ever in any case at all, I mean, whether it's divorce or you've been sued for something or do not represent yourself, you're not smart enough. You really aren't right . You didn't go to law school. No . Yeah.

Rebecca Neale:

Maybe you went to law school and you didn't pass the bar in that state. You know, I mean the , every state is different when it comes to , um, when it comes to debt issues and, and consumer issues, every state has its own particular laws and same with family law. And so it's really important to seek good legal counsel. And many States allow you to hire a lawyer just for advice and then you go to court and represent yourself. But you've spoken with a lawyer and you know what you can and can't do. Um, you've gotten a good strategy from them. You can hire a lawyer just to draft your separation agreement and then you go to court alone. There's lots of different ways to work with an attorney without paying the five or $10,000 retainer that is usually required for a full on, you know, representation.

Chase Peckham:

Sure. So that brings me to what's the difference , uh , between taking on a client? Um, w for I , I guess divorce proceedings and then being a mediator through divorce is , um, what, what is the , I mean, what is the difference?

Rebecca Neale:

Right. So , uh , so a mediator can't provide legal advice because you're a neutral third party. So both clients have to trust you. And if you're advising somebody on their legal rights and responsibilities, you're obviously not a neutral third third party. So at the very beginning of any conversation with somebody, I say, are you reaching out for legal advice or for a mediator? Because once I've given them legal advice, I can't mediate, I refer them to other mediators. Um , and legal advice itself is advice that takes your knowledge of the law with the facts that the client presents to you and analyzes those facts in light of the law. So a mediator, for example, would give legal information such as these are the child support guidelines. When you plug your information into here, this is the result you get. Um, they can give that legal information. Now somebody calls me and asks like, how is child support? Am I going to , Oh , I'm going to say, okay, give me all your facts. Right? And then I'm going to say, well, you could include this income or you could leave it out or you know , um, what do you pay for this and what do you pay for that? Do you want to go after , um, this person's undeclared income or not? Uh, and this is the result you would get. And then I would say, well, based on what I know about the whole situation, the range of possible outcomes that you could have is, you know, $100 a week to $500 a week based on, you know, what you include in those child support guidelines. So I don't know if that illustrates the difference between legal information and legal advice, but , um, but you shouldn't be relying on your mediator to advise you about what the best decision is to make

Chase Peckham:

a mediator would be meeting with both parties, correct?

Rebecca Neale:

Yes, absolutely. So they meet with both parties. Some mediators won't meet with one party individually and the only meet together , um , there's nothing confidential or, well, some, some mediators will meet with you one on one and have certain certain things confidential if you'd like that. Um , but in general, you know, you meet with a neutral third party who's trying to help you come to a resolution. Um, they can't tell you what's in your best interest or not because that would mean that they're telling you , um, that they're kind of working against the other party in the sense that, you know, if it wouldn't be in the other party's best interests. Right.

Chase Peckham:

So they're basically just trying to divvy up things for that couple who want to get through the process as swiftly and fairly as possible and, and also, and can guide them in what is typical with divorces and times for child support and those kinds of things.

Rebecca Neale:

Absolutely. Like , uh , when they come up with an agreement, you know, do you know what the court expects to see? And if there's something that the court may balk at, you're going to tell them, not sure that the court is going to this. You can try if you'd like, but here are different possibilities that you could consider that kind of thing.

Chase Peckham:

Gotcha. And you are in the state of Massachusetts, correct? Yes. So a couple things. Um , one, how do people find you? Uh, and actually let's turn that around. One. Um, what are the laws as far as at fault or I guess I'm, if I'm putting that correctly. So like in the state of California, it's a no fault state, right? So if you cheat, it doesn't matter whether you have been, have been , uh , committed infidelity , uh, it's going to be a 50, 50 state is what is , uh, the state of Massachusetts.

Rebecca Neale:

So , um, I believe California is a community property state. Yes. And that's more important than the fault at fault distinction because no, because every state has a no fault divorce now. New York was the last one really to adopt. No fault divorce. Yeah. So everybody's got a no fault divorce. Massachusetts does, and they're an equitable division state. So what happens is anything you've acquired during the marriage is split 50, 50 unless. There's certain circumstances that make it , um , appropriate for a different kind of split, like a 60, 40 split. Um , for example, you know, somebody, one party would end up in a strikingly different situation after 10 years of divorce than the other party because of a significant income difference or something like that. Um , and then Massachusetts also considers , um, the length of your marriage. They, they consider their , a lot of factors that they consider. One thing is the length of the marriage. And if you brought assets into the marriage, then you may be dividing those assets as well. So premarital assets may be divided if it's a very longterm marriage. Um, so that's how Massachusetts in a nutshell breaks it down.

Chase Peckham:

And what's the difference between that and a community property such as California?

Rebecca Neale:

I do not know.

Chase Peckham:

Okay. That is interesting. I mean, I have friends and relatives who've gone through d ivorces and I don't think they could tell you either. Yeah.

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah . But I will tell you that in Massachusetts, if you've had an affair, the court does not care whose fault it is to break down the marriage who had an affair. The only thing they're going to care about when it comes to an affair is whether you spent any money on it. So if you took your paramour out for a two week vacation to Tahiti, you know, and you spent tens of thousands of dollars on it, they're gonna care. But if you had some affair and you never spent any money pursuing the affair, you never depleted the marital estate, then it's, it's just not important to the court.

Chase Peckham:

I just, after, it's funny, every time we talk with , um, a divorce attorney , um , or a tax professional that deals with , uh , divorces , every single time I get a pit in my stomach thinking about the fact that if I ever had to go through anything like that, it just makes me value my wife and my relationships so much more. It's right. And just thank my God for my blessings that, you know, we have the partners we do.

Rebecca Neale:

Yeah. Yeah. Who knew it would be such an important, well , we all knew it's an important decision when you decide to get married in your partner that you choose. Um , but sometimes you don't know at the beginning how it's going to end at the end. Um, and a lot of my clients feel so much better when that divorce judgment comes through. Um, they feel like they can now start moving forward instead of being left in this space where somebody else's controlling their finances or their kind of their, their freedom, their life movement. Yeah. Their lives.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. That's very, very difficult. Well, Rebecca, thank you so much. Where can our listeners find you if they happen to be residents of the great state of Massachusetts? Um, and they unfortunately are looking for , um, somebody to help them out in that area. How did they find you?

Rebecca Neale:

So my website is Bedford family lawyer.com and if you search for that, you , you get my website. I'm on Facebook at Bedford family lawyer, Twitter at BFlawyer. Um, or they can send me an email, [email protected] or call me (781) 499- 2016.

Chase Peckham:

Oh , it's been really, really eye opening and, and really fascinating speaking with you. Thank you for uh, giving us your expertise and thanks for, I hope I never have to use you.

Rebecca Neale:

Yes. But if you do know somebody who needs a thoughtful advocate, please send them on over.

Chase Peckham:

We'll do.

Rebecca Neale:

Thanks for having me.

Chase Peckham:

And now for a little follow up with myself, Phil and Katie. Financial abuse. It's quite an interesting topic.

Felipe Arevalo:

It is. And I didn't realize how, I mean, now thinking about it kind of makes sense, but how prevalent it is.

Chase Peckham:

Well, I just, you know, we always think of abuse as the physical and mental forms of things when it comes to couples, domestic abuse. I mean it's in the news , uh , quite a lot with athletic figures, things like that. Um, but we don't think of like the financial side of it. Yet, anytime. And we work with people going through divorce a lot, which is obviously what Rebecca Neale talked about and does for a living. Uh, the , there's always that recovery from the financial situation because you're splitting two, part two parties apart. Now all of a sudden you have whole new financial life that you're going to have to figure out and that can be dramatically different and difficult. Um, not just in the split up itself, but the, the actual trying to relearn how to take care of yourself and then your family.

Katie Utterback:

I would even back up further. And how do you get out of a domestic violence situation when your access to money may not exist?

Chase Peckham:

Well, she talked about that.

Felipe Arevalo:

It was alarming too . Like what percentage of finance or physical abuse went hand in hand with um , the financial abuse and it's like 90 96% or something .

Katie Utterback:

The 99% of domestic violence cases involved financial abuse, 99 .

Chase Peckham:

So they must really go hand in hand.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah,

Chase Peckham:

it comes down to control. One party wants control of a situation. And they do that by basically taking away all of the individualistic liberties that humans have. I mean, regardless if we're married, we are not owned by our spouse. We are still individuals. We are still supposed to be individuals that live our own lives. We just do it together in what is supposed to be a , a healthy union. Right, right. That's the idea behind it. Uh , I can't imagine what it's like to be involved in that. You know, we, we sit across the table working with people , uh , in financial strife and a lot of it has to do with the breaking up of it. But from a pure psychological standpoint and dealing with all that, I can't imagine what those people are going through.

Katie Utterback:

Well, even just beyond your spouse too, I in preparation for the show was reading a thread on Reddit and there was a woman who came forward and said that her , um, to be father in law had actually , um, the , he has the same name as this woman's fiance. Um, his credit wasn't so great, but the son's credit was great. So the father knew the son's social security number and used it to take out a loan, didn't make the payments on it. The couple didn't find out until they were trying to make payments to their wedding vendors and they needed additional funds and they got denied for a loan. So, I mean it's even your parents could take advantage of you. You could be taking advantage of your children or your spouse could be taking advantage of your children. You know.

Chase Peckham:

what an a hole.

Katie Utterback:

Right?

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. That guy to do one do it to anyone, but your own blood. Your son, your son. Yeah. That's outside the realm of possibility. It would never come into my mind to do that to someone.

Felipe Arevalo:

It was also alarming to see that the other way around to children doing it to elderly parents.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. We actually have a client too her. She's actually one of our, our blog writers on the debt wave blog site. Part of the reason that she ended up on our program was because her brother took out a credit card in her name and never made payments on it. So there's a lot of, you know, financial abuse from people or sources that you may not expect it, but this is another reason why you need to get a copy of your credit report every year.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. We mentioned that not only every , I mean we, we recommend at least once a year, but, but really we recommend at least twice. Yeah. I mean a lot can happen in six. 12 months is a long time.

Katie Utterback:

It is a long time.

Chase Peckham:

At least once every six months you're going to be able to stop something little bit. Yeah.

Felipe Arevalo:

Quick before you get a notice. Yeah.

Chase Peckham:

But that's not just the human side of it. Doesn't that blow you away.

Felipe Arevalo:

that someone's willing to do that,

Chase Peckham:

willing to hurt someone else?

Felipe Arevalo:

Even people they care about most in theory and theory are where they're supposed to care about most and they care about themselves. The other person in trusts them and trusts in them. Um, and then they take advantage of that trust. Trust. It was very , uh, interesting to see some of the stats.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. It's shocking how many people knowingly hurt other people because,

Felipe Arevalo:

and I think there was also some unknowingly where they maybe are trying to cover up some of their shortcomings and they do it like, Oh, I'll just, for example, if someone was like gambling and they were trying to hide that from their spouse, they're still doing it knowingly, but they're not doing it necessarily maliciously to hurt the spouse. They're doing it to try and cover their own behind.

Chase Peckham:

that. I think that comes down that that's like financial infidelity, right? That we've talked about that in a former, a prior podcast that falls under that moniker. But I think they all blend together pretty closely. Yeah. They just, one is knowingly doing something to hurt somebody else. The others coming from a different place, but still wrong .

Felipe Arevalo:

It's still financial abuse though.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. It's just , I don't think there's any question.

Katie Utterback:

And if you're listening to this podcast, I'm going to put a couple of links to organizations that can help you if you feel like you may be the victim of financial abuse. Um, there's the Purple Purse All State Foundation, which is [email protected] And what's nice about their website is they actually have a safety exit button so that if you are using a shared computer with somebody who you may suspect is taking advantage of your financial being , um, you can just click on that safety exit button and it'll just take you out of that tab and open up a blank weather.com tab I believe. There's also aunt Bertha, that's aunt a, U N T Bertha, B E R T H a.com. AuntBertha.com is where you can find a lot of like housing assistance programs that can help you with job placement. It's just kind of like , uh , all, all encompassing help . Yes, yes. So you can just plug in your zip code in there and then they can connect you with source or resources in your area. And then there's the national domestic violence hotline. There are people available to help you in more than 200 languages and they're available 24, seven and the number is 1-800-799-SAFE 1-800-799-SAFE. And I'll put this in our show notes too.

Chase Peckham:

That's awesome. The Purple Purse is very interesting. That's um, that's actually done through the Allstate foundation. Uh , and Serena Williams and Allstate , uh , joined together to end financial abuse. This is , uh , this is a real epidemic.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. And we're recording this episode in October and October is domestic violence awareness month. Yeah. Um, which kind of brings me up to another point of the reason why we're doing this show. We wanted to create a safe space where people could learn about money, could learn about personal finance, the fundamentals of creating a budget. How do you check your credit score? Why do you have to check your credit score? Because to be quite transparent, these were questions that I had not that long ago. I didn't understand it. Um, and Felipe and I both happened to see a tweet the other day. Um,

Felipe Arevalo:

that was funny.

Katie Utterback:

Which yeah, we both actually saved this tweet that we saw on Friday, to show to each other on Monday.

Felipe Arevalo:

I was at Grossmont college getting ready to present. And I had a few minutes before class started and now scrolling through Twitter, they asked if I see Twitter and I was like, wow, I gotta screenshot this so I can show Katie.

Chase Peckham:

Are you guys gonna let us know what it is?

Katie Utterback:

So the tweet , um, basically shames a cash register employee at a coffee shop for not knowing, automatically using her head how to make the correct change. And it was like the coffee came out till like $3 and 54 cents with tax and the , the woman handed the cashier $5 and 4 cents . Now the cashier tried to hand back the four extra pennies to this woman, which maybe is what 54 cents instead of 50 cents. Right . So she, she wanted a dollar 50 and change. That is a mathematical equation that I can proudly say I had It took me a while, had to use chicken scratch on paper. It didn't just pop into my head. Um, but the point of us bringing this up is that there was a level of shame from this woman for the cashier not knowing the exact change immediately and not being that comfortable with money that she just knew right off the bat that it was a dollar 50 change. And so that's why this show exists. This is what we're trying to do is help people feel comfortable enough to not feel shamed, to not shame other people and to ask for help.

Chase Peckham:

I'd love to know who that woman was. I'd shame that bitch right now. That's just mean publicly. I mean, how angry are you? And she said , you're going to shame somebody publicly because they didn't get the change number correct right off the top of their head when she probably does a thousand transactions. Right, right. That makes why?

Felipe Arevalo:

and there were some people on Twitter standing up for the cashier.

Chase Peckham:

God, I hope so. But were other people just piling on?

Felipe Arevalo:

Not so much.

Katie Utterback:

Not as much as I thought.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah.

Chase Peckham:

That's why Twitter freaks me out, man. It's, it's just, it's a place to go to be mean. Vitriol. Yeah.

Katie Utterback:

What I liked was where the tweets in response saying, you know, why didn't you take that opportunity to help the cashier learn how to maybe make change faster, like in her head or just help her.

Chase Peckham:

at the same time, take your change, get your coffee and leave. Right. And say thank you. Right, right. What is the point of using the energy to just for the four pennies wrap on somebody.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. Yeah. And this woman continued on like what ?

Felipe Arevalo:

She went to the grocery store next and had a conversation with the people at the grocery store to try and figure out how good they were at change.

Chase Peckham:

Is this woman like this expert in change? Is she Making the world a better place by saying, you should know how to do this in your head.

Katie Utterback:

I mean, I think that's a perfect example of financial abuse too. And in some aspect of, if you're shaming someone for not knowing their finances or for not giving you the , your change fast enough. I'm sorry. You're kind of creating a problem.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah. Um , I want to go look at this tweet I want to do.

Felipe Arevalo:

Are we gonna find you on Twitter now? Get all over this woman?

Chase Peckham:

No, probably not. Probably not. I do look at Twitter to find out headlines to find out like quick news, that kind of stuff. Yeah. I try not to delve into it because it can be so negative.

Felipe Arevalo:

For the most part.

Chase Peckham:

I try outside of looking at like what the SDFLC, and DebtWave and those kinds of cause typically there are, there's look , there's positive and negative.

Felipe Arevalo:

positive Katie and try to stay funny yeah. Will you should entertaining someone. You're talking finance people. It isn't. Exactly, not always the most fun topic . Not exactly exciting. Yeah.

Chase Peckham:

Most people don't get thrilled to going, let's look at Twitter and find out.

Felipe Arevalo:

some really fun facts.

Katie Utterback:

It is a nice way to stay motivated though. Yeah . There are people like [inaudible] success stories .

Chase Peckham:

Yeah, I agree 100%.

Felipe Arevalo:

I'll t weet about random personal finance things. Any really, any chance I get when I'm g oing t o have a chance to be on there.

Chase Peckham:

I'm I , and this is is definitely not in all seriousness, but I find financial abuse for my daughter, my nine year old, she's everywhere we go. She's got to have something new. Dad, can I have that dad, can I have this dad, can I have that dad, can you buy me this dad? Can you buy me that? Hey , financially mental abuse.

Katie Utterback:

But I'm actually, I think that's a question for a financial psychologist. But you're right, like in a way, if you were not, you know, quote unquote healthy like in how you are psychologically, there's a chance that if you had a trauma from your childhood, your daughter saying like, I want this or I need this. Could put you in a , um, I guess maybe a risky financial situation if you catered into her because of that fear of abuse from, you know ,

Chase Peckham:

well, you're 1000% right. You're probably stems back that it goes to lots of different things. But when kids grow up and they don't have much, they're going to go one of two ways and it's going to be, I'm going to hoard money because I never had it. And I'm not going to spend it or they go the other way and it's like, I deserve this. I didn't have it growing up. My family didn't have it. So I am going to do that. I am going to give my kids everything I didn't have. And a lot of times to the detriment of, of your situation, of your family because you're just spending without thinking it through, justifying it to yourself that your kids deserve to have this. And then you could argue whether they're doing them a service, those kids learning as they grow up, right. That I just go buy whatever I want because I deserve it or I want it so I want it. So I'll show by it. I mean that's a slippery slope, right? You don't know.

Katie Utterback:

Or even like in front of your kids, like don't tell mom we're going to use mom's credit card to buy this or something, you know ?

Chase Peckham:

Oh, that could set up their whole life of criminal activity. One day it's credit card.

Felipe Arevalo:

Next day it's, they might find your credit card the next day and be like, I just wont to tell him this time. Did one last time. I just want to tell him this time. Yeah.

Katie Utterback:

That's just what we do. We use other people's credit cards and we just don't tell them.

Chase Peckham:

That's awful. But it happens and it happens all the time. Unfortunately it does. And I would love to have a financial psychologist. I'm working out here one day though that , yeah, the whole idea of the psychology behind money is fascinating when we talk about that a lot in presentations and workshops and one-on-ones, just so much of the decisions, again, decisions that we make most of the time or our emotional, psychological , um, you know, we make them spur of the moment because we need to be, I mean, just the same thing with, you know, sometimes you make decisions just based on emotion and you know, you don't care that the vet bill costs $1,400 because your dog who is a part of the family is, you know, in need there and a need. Yeah. And you just, you just do. And you figure out, okay, w have to come down to emergencies, right? Those different funds that you have, you don't see that coming , um, that we're getting off track. That's not really financial abuse, but it does become that, that psychological side to it. You know, someday I'm going to look back and I'm going to go, Oh man, that vet bill was, that's ridiculous. But at the time you don't care

Katie Utterback:

no, but I think that's a great point is that you can become so psychologically fried when you're in an abusive situation, whether that's financial or or not. And if it is financial abuse, if it is kind of an invisible, broken bone, it may be more difficult to get people to support you or to see why you're concerned right off the bat, which could make you even more psychologically exhausted. So by the time you are in such a sticky situation and you can't financially get out because maybe you don't have access to your credit cards or debit cards, maybe you don't have access to a bank account at all anymore. I mean, that's the point where you're probably so burned out. You don't know which way to look or to go, which is why again, I will put all of those resources on our show notes page.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah, I think those resources, I think it's just getting the word out that the, this, this financial abuse is a real thing and it takes so many different spins on things. It's goes so many different ways , um, that you could be in, in a bad situation and not even know it. Um, and it could be right in front of you. Cause as, as they say with a lot of finance, with abuse in general, sometimes you're just too close to a situation to actually see it. 100 million, especially financially. I mean, yeah, you imagine that somebody would do something like that to you and sometimes whether they know it or not , um, but it takes on so many different levels. I mean, just trying to hijack people's eye . She was talking about it. Um, Rebecca Neal , like the crazy things that she seen, like trying to SA sabotage people's jobs and their careers and it's.

Felipe Arevalo:

just like calling them over and over to make it harder for their career to advance.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. Well, I found some examples too . I don't know if she talked about this, but preventing you from working by hiding your keys, unhooking your car battery, taking your car without permission, offering to babysit and then not showing up.

Chase Peckham:

Now that she did talk about the babysitting city and how that, that can be a very difficult thing in the divorce because you have like switching off day switching days and times and everything and then they're supposed to show up to take the kids at that time. You have a job to get to. They don't show up at their time and now you're.

Felipe Arevalo:

making up excuses trying to find babysit after making this.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah, right. I mean it takes on all kinds of forms. That's, that was like after we were done with that interview, I, I had a little bit of a pit in my stomach thinking, man, this is a kind of a recurring theme. I am very thankful for my , my wife and situation at home because man, there's some crazy stuff out there.

Katie Utterback:

There's quite a few doozies.

Chase Peckham:

There's some doozies.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. I feel similarly.

Chase Peckham:

What do we got coming up?

Katie Utterback:

We are actually going to talk to a woman named Brynne Conroy. She's the author of the feminist financial handbook, and we're going to actually talk about how difficult it is to break out of that poverty cycle, generational poverty cycle .

Chase Peckham:

I looked that up. She is a fascinating, fascinating young tale. Her story's going to be incredible. I don't think anybody's going to miss that , so we'll see you next time.